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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

4 Down, 7 to go

I'm disappointed. Yes, I know I should be happy that the White Sox were able to tie the series up at 1-1 with a 2-1 vitory over the Angels, but I have a hollow empty feeling in my gut after that win.

Right now I should be writing about the masterful performance of Mark Buehrle. I was one of his biggest critics in the second half of the season. I should be enjoying a large helping of crow, but I can't.

A simple strikeout turned into so much more. By now you've all seen what happened, heard all the expert opinions, made your own conclusion, so I'll spare you the War and Peace version. Straight to the Cliff's Notes.

  • I've gone back and forth on whether Josh Paul caught the ball. It's tough to tell. You can make a case for either side.
  • Heads up play by A.J. Pierzynksi. He never takes anything for granted.
  • If Josh Paul just puts a tag on Pierzynski, we're not discussing any of this. -- AJ tagged out Benji Molina on the exact same play to end the top of the sixth. (I just went back and watched it. Molina swings and misses, trowing his bat to SS in the process. The ball is low, but not in the dirt. AJ puts the tag on just to be sure.)
  • I'm sure if I was an Angels fan that I would be really pissed right now, but not just at Doug Eddings. Doug Eddings didn't throw a meatball to Joe Crede with an 0-2 count. Doug Eddings didn't allow a stolen base with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth. The box score does not read Doug Eddings (0-1). -- No I'd be mad that my team couldn't score more than a single run in 9 innings of play. In fact, that's exactly what I was ready to do.
This game had all the makings of a heartbreaking loss for the White Sox -- 1983 Game 4 ALCS heartbreaking. -- the type of game you don't recover from. Mark Buehrle was ready and willing to fill the role of Britt Burns, and I'm sure there was somebody on the Angels bench, maybe even Josh Paul, just waiting to play the part of Tito Landrum. Instead, the name Doug Eddings will live forever along side Don Denkinger and Jeffery Maier.

Umpires don't win games, players do. Mark Buehrle, Joe Crede, and White Sox deserve some credit.

ESPN: Page 2 | Black Betsy | LA Seitz of Chicago | Exile in Wrigleyville

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Perfect characterization
This describes our view well. Keep up the good work Cheat.

by MRKARNO on Oct 13, 2005 1:38 AM CDT reply actions  

Agreed
I got yelled at my bar for being happy when Crede hit the wall.

He said you should not be happy with that type of win. I agreed, I would have rather had a runner score when we had the bases loaded, but blown calls are a part of the game.

We would have a lot better record agaist Oakland this year if replay was involved but its not.

Umpires are part of the game, that is why K-zone is not replacing the random strike zone.

The Doctor has spoken

by drzorba on Oct 13, 2005 1:50 AM CDT reply actions  

Doug Eddings Questionable Umpiring
Young Cheat:

Doug was busy trying to find the official strike zone all night long.  His lower strike zone was very contraversial throughout the night especially about mid game.  Lots of discussions with the batters had been ensued throughout the affair.  This game was only fitting to end in such a light as it did.

As Mike Scosia stated during the post game comments, one call should not make the whole game.  His team did not play well on the offensive side and he said that they paid for their lack of performance.  Very classy and yet very correct.  I think Mike should file a protest, no matter how futile that action might be.

I really am very excited to see this series knotted up at 1 a piece.  I look forward to a 7 game series and every game being edge of the seat entertaining!

Keep up the excellent work.  I look forward to making more contributions as we go forward.

I am out!

LiveStrong, Wear Yellow; "It may not be true, but accurate," Dan Rather; The Truth is out There; Bababooey to you all!

by ghostofrayrayner on Oct 13, 2005 2:01 AM CDT reply actions  

Very classy
that should also be our complaints about the team.

The game should not have come down to that call.  We should have won that game on a base hit about three times that game.

No matter what that game was going to be talked about as controversial, if the LAAA had won that game everyone would have talked about the Crede play at second.  I am just glad the bad call talked about led to a sox winner.

The Doctor has spoken

by drzorba on Oct 13, 2005 2:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

all other things being equal
Crede was out at 2nd
alia iacta est - win now

by dyspeptic on Oct 13, 2005 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

How are we supposed to handle this?
The bloggers on the Angels site are understandably pissed off, and I was wondering what the karmic result of this victory would be for the Sox.  Unlike most Angels fans, though-- and being as objective as I can possibly be-- how can you fault AJ or any of the Sox for what happened?  AJ is not a cheater.  He's not A-Rod trying to slap the ballout of Arroyo's glove after hitting a weak ground ball.  He figures he'd just try running to first. He's a catcher;  he's supposed to think of stuff like that.  And then Buehrle, Crede, Ozuna, all the stories of a well-played game.

After all the outs we threw away in this game (Rowand Rowand Rowand), the Angels were lucky to be hanging around at all in the 9th.

And so, I don't feel wonderful about the win either.  The true test will be how the Sox handle this when they stepon the field in Anaheim.  Ojala con cojones grandes...

by spengler on Oct 13, 2005 2:25 AM CDT reply actions  

I think I speak for most of the Angels bloggers
when I say that none of us blame AJ.  That was a heads up play, and he got the call, albeit an awful one, but no one thinks he cheated or anything.  And I certainly don't have any animosity toward the Sox over this.  It was a crappy way for the game to end, but that's not the Sox fault.  

I just think the Angels and baseball fans everywhere got robbed of a few more innings.  But if I were in any of your shoes, I could probably live with that.

by LA Seitz on Oct 13, 2005 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, one can only hope
that this kind of win, regardless of how it occured, sparks the bats for the rest of the season.

I never bought the "no rest" argument for the Angels, so I'm ok with a split.  It just means that chicago can win the series at home.

AIM: shaftr01

blog

by shaftr on Oct 13, 2005 2:43 AM CDT reply actions  

To me, it wasn't the no rest thing.
It was the pitching matchups.

We had 2 games at home against the bottom of the Angels' pitching staff. Game 1 was Contreras v Byrd.

Now, Byrd is a solid guy and all. But if we wanna win the pennant, we have to win that game.

Now we go to LA and they have Lackey and Santana rested and ready.

Somehow, we have to steal 1 of those games on the road and get back to where our top half is against their bottom half. If we can do that, I'll be confident again.

but to me the missed opportunity was the pitching advantage, not the lack of rest.

by HFSox on Oct 13, 2005 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're right
It shouldn't have come down to that.

What the hell is Joey Cora THINKING?!?!?!  Nobody out, and you're sending him home?!?!?!

Unreal.  It should have been 2-1 at that point, with the Sox looking to tack on some insurance runs, but no -- it's dissappointing that the contreversial call had such a huge impact on the game.

by CWSKeith on Oct 13, 2005 8:09 AM CDT reply actions  

Here...
Look everyone, this is taking on a Bartman level of annoyance for me.  The call MAY or MAY NOT have been blown.  Here are the only 2 points that matter:
  1. I was a catcher my entire baseball life (through senior year of high school...i didn't go to a college with a baseball team otherwise I'd probably have been playing there as well).  Among the first things I was ever taught was if a ball is even close to in the dirt, tag the runner and remove all doubt.  Watch any major league game and catchers will tag runners on balls that were a lot more obviously caught than that.  Josh Paul committed a catching SIN.  He allowed an ump to decide the play rather than being safe.
  2. That put a runner on first base with 2 outs.  I keep hearing the call talked about as though it was the last play of the game.  Ozuna stole 2nd.  Crede falls behind 0-2.  Now if I am on defense with 2 outs, runner on second, and a hitter with below average strike zone awareness down 0-2 I am feeling pretty good about my chances.  Instead a mistake pitch is thrown and the game is over with.
The call didn't result in the loss, Crede's hit/Escobar's mistake did.  And don't give me the "Crede doesn't get the hit without the call" arguement because that is letting a pitcher off the hook for a mistake.  Make the plays you are supposed to make and it is a non issue.
AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://thepicks.blogspot.com <- my NFL and NCAA picks.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2005 8:18 AM CDT reply actions  

excellent points
and I might encourage you to think back as to whether you ever depended on a hand signal to decide if a batter was out. You probably never did because your back was turned. You wait to hear it from the ump. Paul didn't hear 'batter out' he just heard strike three and rolled it out to the mound.
alia iacta est - win now

by dyspeptic on Oct 13, 2005 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Point #1
AJ did just that to end the 6th inning. -- He caught a third strike on molina, but he tagged Molina just to be sure.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Oct 13, 2005 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly right.
I caught in High School as well, and I'm now a high school ump in Indiana (IHSAA certified), and 90% of the time the catchers will tag the runner on anything low, just in case that idiot ump (read: me) missed the play or thought it bounced.

Paul made the mistake by rolling the ball.  Next year no one will remember the controversy at all.

Just a Twins fan hangin' with the other guys...

by Megawatt @ South Side Sox on Oct 13, 2005 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not a clean one.
The call... whatever.  That's baseball.

I agree with Cheat, it was a hard win to swallow.  This team "tried" to lose that game last night.  Over and over again with dumb mistakes, like in game one.  Bad decisions were made, communication was terrible between coaches and players, you could see it.

I said in about the 4th/5th inning.  Lets just get a miracle to give us this win so they can take a day to gather their heads and remember why they're here without being down 2.  And then God said "and so it shall be."

Our pitching is great, defense for the most part is solid, though I want to see better decisions from the guys on where to go with the ball (game 1, Crede should have gone to first, no chance at home, yet Conreras should have gone home).  Offences go in slumps, we're having a little one.

We're getting behind on counts and not getting in good pitch count situations.  And the small ball sucked.  Chalk most of it up to bad communication and a loss of inginuity.  Though I think Ozzie may be trying to "outsmart" Scocia (he admited that he feared LAAA the most).

I'd have Posednik bunt all day in practice on Thurs, cause he obviously forgot on Tues.

Correct the mistakes and go to LAAA with a solid game.  Its now a 5-game playoff without home field.  Sox have the best road record.

by StuckinIN on Oct 13, 2005 9:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Not
on the west coast they don't.
The Doctor has spoken

by drzorba on Oct 13, 2005 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dude...
shhhh.  You're right though.  So let's throw out all the stats and just play baseball.  Go Sox!

by StuckinIN on Oct 13, 2005 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umpire's Transcripts
ESPN has posted the Transcript of the umpiring crew at the post game presser if anyone is interested.
AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://thepicks.blogspot.com <- my NFL and NCAA picks.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2005 9:31 AM CDT reply actions  

it reminded me of the old expression
if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging
alia iacta est - win now

by dyspeptic on Oct 13, 2005 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

The mistake Eddings made...
...was in his use of hand signals. At best, assuming it is true that he used 2 motions to to indicate strike 3, they were confusing. Does anyone know if he consistently used 2 motions to call strikes all night?

That being said, I think this is no where near as bad as the Maier or Denkinger incidents. The bottom line is that ruling Paul trapped the ball is a reasonable call. It's hard to tell for sure either way from the replay, so the ruling is certainly not ridiculous (like Denkinger's was). Plus Paul couldn't see the confusing hand signals anyway, and rolled the ball out before the second motion. I'm also willing to bet that the Angels leaving the field were reacting to Paul rolling the ball out, rather than Eddings' fist pump.

It's hard to imagine how I would feel if the Sox had been on the other end of this. I think I would be upset that the ump wasn't clear about his trap call. But I would also be very unhappy that a tag wasn't applied and that SB and double followed, and that would be on the Sox not the ump.  

by hitlesswonder on Oct 13, 2005 9:32 AM CDT reply actions  

agreed...
and the most confusing part is that most Angels fans I see are not only refusing to put any fault on the players, but they are going so far as to call AJ a "fucking cheater" among other unflattering names.
AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://thepicks.blogspot.com <- my NFL and NCAA picks.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2005 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

ESPN, Eric Neel's response
...was pretty interesting. He's an Angels fan and and wrote the following:

"Heck of a play by A.J. Pierzynski. Seriously heads-up. If he doesn't push the issue, we're not talking about any of this and the Sox are down 0-2"

The interesting thing is he thinks the Angels win if that play doesn't happen. Which I think is different from how most Sox fans would feel if the situation were reversed. Are Sox fans natural pessimists?

by hitlesswonder on Oct 13, 2005 9:43 AM CDT reply actions  

what are the exact odds for a home team
to win an extra inning game? It's not like the angels generated any offense all night other than the fluke Quinlan home run
alia iacta est - win now

by dyspeptic on Oct 13, 2005 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

From what I gather
I think going into the top of the 10th, LAA has a .482 chance of winning.  With the bad call, they have a .436 chance (9th inning, 2 outs, runner on 1st).

The Bad Call has a WPA (Win Propability Added) of .46 or it is a 4.6% change in their chances.

NOTE:  The .482 was gathered by looking at a WPA Calculator from about 30 years worth of games.  Another source says the home team hs a .55 advantage empirically, but theoratically it should be at .5).  So, at it's worse, it is a WPA .64 call.

AIM: shaftr01

blog

by shaftr on Oct 13, 2005 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Annoying media...
TSN's caption about the game says the call "kept the game alive..." Arrrgh. And Gatto (a TSN columnist) says the Sox should be 0-2. Last night's game looked pretty even to me... And I'm not going to even talk about Couch's column in the Sun Times except to say that it just about says AJ = cheater. Nice local coverage. I need to go back to not reading any sports media again.

by hitlesswonder on Oct 13, 2005 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Official Rule
I keep hearing the whole "if a catcher catches the ball cleanly on a hop it is still a putout" talk on the radio and on the net.  Here is the official rule (bold text added by me).
6.05
A batter is out when (a) his fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder; (b) a third strike is legally caught by the catcher; "legally caught" means in the catcher's glove before the ball touches the ground.
AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://thepicks.blogspot.com <- my NFL and NCAA picks.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2005 10:02 AM CDT reply actions  

No reason to feel bad about the win
The Sox still earned the win with Ozuna's steal and Crede's double.  And Buehrle's masterful pitching performance.  We can't just forget about that.  The overreaction to the call is so absurd that people, like Eric Neel apparently, are acting like the Angels were winning before that play.  It was a tie game!  

And as far as the call goes, I think everyone can agree that it's extremely tough to tell one way or the other.  I personally believe that the ump got the call right, based on the replays I've seen, but, obviously, as a Sox fan, I'll never have true objectivity.  But I think this play is more controversial because it played out weirdly, not because the call was obviously wrong (nothing obvious about it).  Imagine if it was a bang-bang play at first base and the first baseman assumed the runner was out and flipped the ball toward the mound before actually hearing the out call.  He'd be the one getting crucified for not waiting for the call on a close play, and no Sox fan would feel bad about winning after such a call.  As Brent said, Josh Paul made a major mistake.  I suspect he may have even been so demonstrably casual about the play because he knew he trapped the ball and he wanted to just play it off like a routine strike three and get off the field.  Because there's no good reason not make sure of the out on that play.

Okay, here's my final point to make people feel better.  If this had been a regular season game, would you feel even a tiny bit bad about the win?  No.  You'd say, "Hey, that's baseball," and go to bed happy.  I suspect that most people's ambivalence toward the win is based on deeply ingrained Sox fan pessism gnawing at the back of your mind telling you that now even if the Sox win the World Series, it will be tainted by "the call."  And all the annoying Cubs fans you know will forever deny the legitimacy of a Sox title based on the call.  But who cares? If we cared what everybody else thought, we wouldn't be Sox fans in the first place!

by Ryno on Oct 13, 2005 10:12 AM CDT reply actions  

That's about how I feel too
I had trouble sleeping because I was jazzed.  Not because a close call went for my team.  And if the Angels take care of business, it doesn't matter at all.
-Peder

by Peder on Oct 13, 2005 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nice little article
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-call/  pretty good article as usual from the guys over at HBT regarding the call.
AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://thepicks.blogspot.com <- my NFL and NCAA picks.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2005 10:27 AM CDT reply actions  

Are you guys crazy?!
I feel just as good about this win as if the play didn't happen. And I think just the opposite about the Karma related to this. I think this shows the baseball gods are smiling on us. Sometimes upmires get calls wrong (and I'm not even sure it was wrong looking at some of the real close up views). That's part of the game. The good teams take advantage of the questionable call.

For example, if Cano isn't called out on a questionable call the Angels may not even be here. But he was and they went on to win. The Angels had multiple opportunities to make that play irrelevant (Paul tagging AJ, throwing out Ozuna, not hanging an 0-2 pitch to Crede) and they couldn't get the job done.

Let's go sox!

by bhoov on Oct 13, 2005 10:48 AM CDT reply actions  

ding!
I agree...a win is a win.  We didn't cheat, we don't control the umps (hell..i still think the ball bounced).  I'm fine with it.
AIM: BrentBrookhouse http://thepicks.blogspot.com <- my NFL and NCAA picks.

by Brent Brookhouse on Oct 13, 2005 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

And another thing
This game had so many layers to it. Another thing that crossed my mind before the game and then again after the play was the fact that Sciosia started both of his main catchers. And thus was forced to use Paul when he pinch ran. Would either Molina brother simply have tagged AJ? Well of course they deny it now in support of Paul. But the reality is that I've seen catchers tag players on caught balls that are close to the dirt all the time.

by bhoov on Oct 13, 2005 11:04 AM CDT reply actions  

ex-Sox factor?
Tony G gives us a gift last week. Josh P gives us a gift last night. Is there a pattern here?
I was at the Jack Morris no-hitter

by dmiller on Oct 13, 2005 11:26 AM CDT reply actions  

We all got Pierzynskied
I've been reading all your posts on this Pierzynski subject and there is no way this will ever be solved.  Angel fans are pissed and Chicago fans are thrilled but we don't feel good about the way this was won.  But what are we supposed to do?  I've listened to all the talk shows, mainly Rome who is the voice of reason and man of laugh-out-loud retorts on his radio show, but there is nothing that can be done.  The umpires are not perfect and Bud Selig is too lazy to do anything about it.

Pierzynski is a complete gamer and does what he can to win ballgames.  He left it up to the gods to decide our White Sox fate and guess where they are now.  I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Pierzynski shirt up on ebay about his legedary performance making things happen.  Its like picking up a chick, you just gotta go up to her and make something happen.  And Pierzynski made something happen.  We can only take what we can get and be happy about it....and we got a World Series!  

by cubhubbub on Oct 18, 2005 8:19 PM CDT reply actions  

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