Armed and Dangerous
The White Sox are -130 favorites to win the World Series. -- I hate being the favorite, but I like being in the World Series. It's a trade off I'm happy to make.
The Astros have a pitching staff unlike anything we have seen in the post-season. Here are the ERA+ marks for all of the starters that we've faced so far along with what the Astros would look like in a 7 game series.
There will be at least two (more likely 3) games in Houston, where the Sox will be without the black hole at DH. I say black hole because Carl Everett has an incredible .561 OPS in the playoffs.
Here's how I would make out my lineups
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26 comments
Comments
lineups
(2) I hate to mention this, but Timo (as in, "C'mon Timo") is 4-7 with 2 2B off of Oswalt. He's got to be the first off the bench against Oswalt. I'd even consider giving him the start over Dye, who is 0-3 with 3 K's.
(3) Why in the heck did Pettite have an ERA below 3 this year? BABIP wasn't that extreme, it was .271, but wow. He hadn't whiffed a 2.XX ERA since 1997, and he was only under 3 one year prior to this one. He was in the bottom 3rd of quality of batters faced (all pitchers 350 PA or more), but nothing interesting.
by BlackBetsy on Oct 20, 2005 4:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Call me crazy...
by BridgeportJoe on Oct 20, 2005 4:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
By the way...
(I don't really NEED the money, but it would be REALLY nice to have it.)
by BridgeportJoe on Oct 20, 2005 4:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let It Ride
Or, if you prefer a more analytical take, if you make the Sox right now as 52.4% favorites (the current odds at Baseball Prospectus) your $4000 ticket has a current value of ~$2096. Counting whatever vig you'd have to pay on your lay-off, I doubt you could lock in a better guaranteed return and if the return is even, then the greater utility you get from being true to the Sox makes the decision. (Unless you're really risk averse and we have to discount for that, but that's a whole different level of analysis that I don't want to get into.)
by Landfill on Oct 20, 2005 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah.
But I concur on the general sentiment.
by BridgeportJoe on Oct 20, 2005 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
another possibility
by BlackBetsy on Oct 20, 2005 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
since you are gamblin man
by fredde on Oct 21, 2005 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
First Thoughts
I don't know what I think is going to happen and I'm not sure I'm capable of being truly rational about it. In a short series, anything can happen, particularly when the teams are so evenly matched. It can so easily come down to luck or a fluky performance or a blown call that I don't see how anyone can forecast with any confidence.
I guess my bottom line is this - I have yet to see the team this season that can consistently beat the Sox if they play their best game. When we get good pitching (no walks, no home-runs) and excellent defense combined with enough decent at-bats that a few balls go over the wall (and please, no outs given away on the bases), we're the best team going. I hope/expect/pray that our guys will continue to play the kind of ball that has made them such a pleasure to watch so many times this year.
Four more wins.
by Landfill on Oct 20, 2005 4:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree it looks painfully close
But if you didn't hit the nail on the head: the Sox must not give away so many outs. We won't get away with Rowand thrown out at home with nobody out against Oswalt.
On the other hand, you really can't tense up and change what got you here.
I don't know. I'm confused I guess. Gonna have to trust in Ozzie one way or the other. At least he'll look like he knows what he's doing.
by spengler on Oct 21, 2005 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
giving up outs
Or maybe I've just been listening to Hawk too long.
by Ryno on Oct 21, 2005 10:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Um, yeah.
Remember that there have been a couple to times just this post-season when we bunted to move Podsednik into scoring position and folowed tha up with a home-run, obviously rendering the bunt meaningless. Basically, I believe you only play for one run when you know that the one run you might get is very likely to win the game for you. That isn't the case in the first inning, so I hope we don't do it.
by Landfill on Oct 21, 2005 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
bunting
From memory, the statistics show that a successful bunt slightly decreases a team's odds of scoring a single run and significantly reduces the odds of the team having a multi-run inning.
However traditionalists like the bunt not only because it moves a runner to scoring position (see above) but also because it disrupts the defense. Is there tracking for errors made on bunt plays? Is there tracking for runs scored after an error on a bunt attempt? How do stats people distinguish between a regular single and an attempted sacrifice that ends up scored as a hit? How do bunt plays compare with regular plays in terms of the likelihood of an error being committed?
I know this is difficult because an error is an error in the score book and not listed as a EOB (Error on Bunt (tm)), just as a batter can lay a bunt down trying for a hit and end up getting creditted for a sacrifice. Has anyone tried to pin any of this down? If you want to direct me somewhere that would be fine, but I'd like to hear opinions as well
After our last protracted string some probably think of me as a baseball luddite, but I actually prefer the quantitative approach first. Demographically, socially and fraternally (4 brothers) I am surrounded by traditionalists. The bunt argument has come down to disruption as its last redoubt.
by dyspeptic on Oct 21, 2005 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Concerning Bunts and Brothers
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2844
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2851
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2869
Click does a very thorough job of assessing when bunting improves your chances of getting a run, taking into account the skill level of the hitters who follow the bunter. I recommend the series to you. If you are not a BP subscriber (and you should be), then I will quote from the conclusions:
"When run maximization is paramount (early in the game, in high run-scoring environments, etc):
- Only pitchers should sacrifice a man from first to second in any circumstances. Even then, certain pitchers who are decent hitters should swing away.
- With a runner on second and no one out, sacrificing makes sense when some of the league's worst hitters are due up, with a hitter with a high propensity for singles and doubles following. The most likely instance of this is as a lineup in the AL turns over from the ninth spot to the first spot. Even then, instances where sacrificing increases run expectation are rare.
- Sacrificing with men on first and second is only a good idea when pitchers are due up. While the thresholds here are higher than in Situations 1 and 2, they still remain far too low for even the worst regular position players.
- Similar to the run maximization situation, only pitchers should sacrifice a man from first. Given that a pitcher would likely rarely be batting in this situation where runs are at a premium, this situation is likely to never occur.
- Most of the league should sacrifice a man from second with no one out. While a line of .277/.350/.451 is slightly above average, recall that the skill set of the second batter due up should also be taken into account. On the whole, this finding is in the greatest agreement with conventional strategy.
- When runners are on first and second, sacrificing is, again, not a good idea, a finding that is due almost entirely to the opposing manager's propensity to intentionally walk the next batter to keep the double play in order. This 10% decrease (approximately) in the scoring probability of the situation is enough to reduce the threshold across a great deal of current hitters.
Therefore, in the broadest conclusion possible, we can say that sacrificing is a good idea when pitchers are batting and, for most of the hitters in the league, when there is a man on second, no one out, and a single run is the goal. Even then, there is a set of the league's best hitters who should never lay down a bunt; which is too bad, because it would be fun to see Bonds square around, just once."
As to your main question about the disruptive effect of bunts, I'm not aware of any definitive answer. I seem to recall that someone did some work that concluded that if you include the chance of bunt base hits and errors into the calculus, that did make sacrifice bunting somewhat more palatable. However, if you are going to make that argument, you must also take into account all the times that a sacrifice bunt fails, because the lead runner gets thrown out, or the bunt is popped up, or (horror of horrors) there is a double play, or even when the hitter puts himself in a two-strike hole failing to get the bunt down and thus lowers his chance of success when he finally swings away. My entirely unfounded guess is that the bad unintended consequences of sacrifice bunting are about equal to the good ones but I'll root around a little and see if I can find any real evidence.
by Landfill on Oct 21, 2005 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Devil's Advocate
Honestly, I find all of the advanced statistical analysis that's available for baseball now absolutely fascinating, but I'm put off by the incredibly condescending way so many of its proponents deliver it (I'm looking at you, Rob Neyer!). There's a general sense that, if you don't accept sabermetrics as baseball gospel, you are a mouth-breathing neanderthal. There just seems to be very little room for any debate. It's like arguing religion with someone.
All I'm asking for is the admission that there is at least the possibilty that there may be phenomena in baseball that can't be perfectly described by statistics; that the much-reviled psychological impact of certain types of plays may actually factor into the outcome of a game. I understand that so-called psychological impact is sort of gooey and inherently unquantifiable, and thus kryptonite to a statistician, but come on, guys, baseless metaphysical speculation is way more fun! And, frankly, since the game does feature actual human beings and their psyches, it does seem foolish, to me at least, to entirely dismiss the notion that the psychological impact of certain plays and situations affects subsequent performance.
Certainly LaTroy Hawkins is the posterboy for the argument against the sabermetric contention that pitching in the 9th inning is no different than the 8th, and there are countless other examples of that good set-up man, bad closer phenomenon (not that it's the norm, but there have been enough that it's not just a couple of flukes). And some Ivy Leaguer recently did a pretty in-depth study showing that some hitters are actually "clutch" or "chokers" (Mr. Crede, meet Mr. Rodriguez). So those seem like two cases in which the determining factor in performance is in fact psychological in nature. But I know nothing about statistics, so maybe the examples I'm using aren't even valid. And, admittedly, the two previous examples are about overall mental makeup rather than the impact of plays or situations on a player's psyche within a given game.
As for actually figuring out a way to measure the psychological impact of taking the lead, could you figure out a way to compare "with a lead" pitching and offensive performance vs. "with a tie" and "when trailing" while accounting for the fact that you often have a lead against bad teams and are trailing against good ones, which obviously has more impact on your performance than the psychological effect of being ahead or behind? As I said, I don't know the first thing about stats, so I don't know if that's even possible. Anyone?
by Ryno on Oct 21, 2005 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I give an 84% probability of complete certainty
Many people who like a statistical analysis make sure that they are clear in talking about probabilities and tendencies. A few do not and I sometimes suspect they forget that it is indeed probability and not certainty. Many of them have been driven to verge of insanity by the traditionalists irrational clinging to truisms.
The game is not entirely reducible and that's why they bother playing it.
The other issue is that not everything is quantifiable. We had a previous discussion about what good stuff was and I'm afraid it was kind of like the old Supreme Court answer about pornography "I know it when I see it" This is too inchoate for someone who wants to be able to look at numbers and develop predictive models. Management, environment, human relations, decision making under pressure, even intelligence impact on the game. Are they 1% or 20%? I don't know.
by dyspeptic on Oct 21, 2005 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent Thread
It certainly makes you wonder about Landfill's observations regarding LaTroy Hawkins... and there are a number of these 9th inning failures... Mota, Farnsworth, Dotel all spring to mind, though they certainly never gave it the flair that Hawkins did with the Cubs.
And so you end up with this endless argument: what is the extent to which you can reduce this game to statistics, and how much does one's contempt of Joe Morgan color one's opinions? I mean, there are obvious areas in which I agree with the Sabrmetricians, and others where it seems that the quantum uncertainty of a game played by human beings oozes through the cracks in the statistics...
I mean, how do you quantify what happened with AJ game-in-game-out throughout the ALCS or the fact that Crede REALLY does seem to smack the ball every time it REALLY matters (as does Big Papi in Boston) but A-Rod certainly doesn't, so where the hell are we?
Perhaps we remain inevitably corralled in the interstices between faith and un-believing, between sabrmetrics and throwing out the book, between statistics and the subtle tricks of memory...maybe, and stop me now, I'm waxing philosophical on the eve of the first White Sox WS game in my lifetime, it's just that the sheer humanity (or hould I say human-ness) of this game drives us crazy no matter how hard we try to tame it or quantify it or reduce it to some predictable pattern.
And we, because we are insane, continue to love it.
by spengler on Oct 21, 2005 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Value Of Evidence
Put it this way: I can't for certain say what will happen if you ask Konerko to bunt in the first inning. He might get the bunt down where he would have struck out instead and it might be that we get only one more single that frame and so the bunt leads to a run that we would not have scored but for the bunt. That might happen and I cannot say with certainty that it won't. But, I can say with certainty that it would be a stupid decision to have Konerko bunt even if all those things did happen to occur because the odds are very much against them falling into place and because the probability of our scoring the most runs, and thus winning the game (the point of the whole exercise), is greater if Konerko swings than if he bunts.
You are, of course, correct that one can only speak of probabilities of result not certainty and all of us can lapse into hyperbole from time to time. But the key point, for me, is not that everything is reducible to numbers. Stats are just one tool to aid in understanding and decision-making. But what really matters is evidence. If you are making an argument without evidence, then you are just offering your opinion which is worth no more than anyone else's and probably shouldn't persuade anyone. If you are making a decision without evidence, you are just guessing.
Now, evidence is not all normative. If Leo Mazzone looks at a pitcher in the 8th inning and discerns that his mechanics are getting lazy and the pitches are sitting up, that is very good evidence that the pitcher should be pulled. But so often, we hear assertions like "scoring in the first inning relaxes the team" which may be true but for which there is no real evidence. Maybe scoring first really does aid performance, but if you are going to make decisions based on that belief, you better have evidence rather than just your assertion.
And, just so I don't come across like too much of a technocratic geek, I should say that I don't think the most interesting thing about baseball is statistics. If all I wanted was a random number generator, I can use a computer. The beauty of the game, to me, lies in the stories of the teams and the players. I like to know about statistics because, properly understood, they allow us to better understand this elegant game which, no matter how long we study it, continually finds ways to surprise us. That is the same reason I enjoy talking about the game, in the stands between innings, or on this site.
Four more wins.
by Landfill on Oct 21, 2005 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your point about evidence
The quant approach has already given us different and competing forms of evidence. It is not a monolithic approach. What existed before James et al, was pretty monolithic. The human mind is a self-reinforcing tool and when combined with consensus and anecdotal evidence, develops into orhodoxy. I would hope and I would guess that the statistical evidence has trickled down to the dugout and that it makes some managers think twice about situational strategy, for instance, which in turn will eventually make all managers think about the strategy. It should make for a more interesting chess match.
But the evidence is frequently unmeasurable and often transient as well. I can sit there and tell you that Joe Mays owns the White Sox, is playing at home and is throwing at the same velocity. You sit there for two or three batters and see that he can't find the strike zone with his slider. His curve is mediocre as always and his fastball is straight. Without a slider, hitters have at least three pitches to wait on one or the other. And really good hitters can react to either after it leaves his hand. He gets shelled.
Next time, who has a better chance of predicting the result? Me, the guy sitting there with the stats. But you might want to put a bet on the outcome.
Between the statistic and the result lies the shadow and everyone knows, fun is often found in the shadows.
by dyspeptic on Oct 21, 2005 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Transient Evidence
I also think optimistically that there are many examples of how objective, quant-based analysis has improved the game. Pitch counts for example. When I was a kid, no one paid the slightest attention to pitch counts. Now, you may think we've gone too far in babying pitchers (and you might well be right), but the fact is that countless great arms have been lost to thoughtless handling, Sandy Koufax for one. Wouldn't it have been great if Koufax had been handled gently and pitched for another five years? Conversely, wouldn't it have been rotten if Pedro Martinez had been ridden like Koufax and flamed out at 30?
While I agree that evidence can be unmeasurable (and I'm not sure what you mean by "transient" in this context), the problem with non-quantifiable evidence is that it so easily turns into self-selected, self-justifying anecdote which is worse than useless for making a decision. For example, when Hawk goes on about how great it is for Iguchi to give himself up, he only mentions the times it leads to a run. He doesn't mention all the times if fails or the (probably unknowable) loss of what Iguchi would do if allowed to swing away. When DJ prattles on about how "aggressive" base-running elevates the team, he never aknowledges the times aggression takes us out of innings.
So what I'm trying to say, however haltingly, is that there is clearly evidentiary value in the non-quantifiable observations of smart, experienced people (and probably other sources as well if I think about it) but that kind of evidence needs to be handled with extreme care because so often it is nothing more than anecdote that has been filtered through the assumptions of the observer. Ideally, I'd like to be able to test that kind of evidence in a measurable way. For example, I'm quite willing to stipulate that Leo Mazzone's skills and experience help pitchers succeed. I don't know exactly how and I certainly couldn't quantify his methods but I can look at the results and be confident of the conclusion. Conversely, I have no reason to believe that Pods' aggressiveness makes his team-mates better, even though experienced baseball men keep telling me it is so.
by Landfill on Oct 22, 2005 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Normative: what do you mean
by spengler on Oct 22, 2005 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Bad
by Landfill on Oct 22, 2005 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your usage was fine
by dyspeptic on Oct 22, 2005 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
just looking to clairify
This has become the great debate in the game currently. Buzz Bissinger, Joe Morgan & the Troglodytes vs. Bill James, Billy Beane & the Acolytes.
I agree with both of you that front offices/managers should try to use whatever objectively quantifiable evidence is available to them to give the team the best possible chance to push runs across on offense, prevent runs on defense, ie win baseball games. I love the example of Mazzone's judgment regarding a tired pitcher. It opens the door to a whole other realm of discussion: the snap judgment, that (at least in Mazzone's case) is based on years of experience, years of watching thousands of pitchers thrown thousands of innings. This guy Malcolm Gladwell wrote a book about it (I read a whole review of it,Blink,I think it's called) I think the sports example he ussed was a tennis coach who could tell in the instant a server began his motion whether the serve would be a fault or not. You have to combine the experience of course with intelligence... and you get the ability to make lightning fast judgments with a stunning degree of accuracy... use the wrong types of information (skin color, for example) and you engage in something called "bad thin slicing" the results of which are stunningly inaccurate (example, the police shooting of Amadou Diallo in NYC)
This stuff is based on neurosicence and reams of research.... so when a baseball manager makes the snap decision to pull a pitcher, put on a hit and run, a sacrifice, a pitchout, etc, he is engaging in this particular "rapid cognition," utilizing his ability to rapidly synthesize statistical data as well as his cumulative baseball experience... and some are just better at this than others
And so Landfill's conclusion is good: the magic of the game is not in the dry stats. I would only add the following: there is magic in the intersection of the statistics with the unknowable, probability with the utterly unexpected... and a manager's uncanny ability tomake the right call.
by spengler on Oct 22, 2005 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I damn it I hate it
by spengler on Oct 21, 2005 3:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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