Buerhle number 4 in playoff rotation?
I've been meaning to work up a thread regarding Buerhle being one of the starting pitchers for the playoffs. Ever since last September when he lost 2 must win games against the Twins I've been dubious of his ability as a big game pitcher. Since then I have refined my opinion to state that he does not fare well against the better teams. And while at some statistical level that may seem like an oxymoron, the fact is he pitches much worse against good teams and consistently loses and much better against poorer teams and usually wins. Let's look at this year.
Wins: these are all "quality starts" only once did he give up 4 ERs and get the win.
* Bad teams: Seattle (2) Detroit (2) KC (3) Baltimore (2) Twins since they've thrown in the towel (2)
* Mediocre Teams: Toronto, Dodgers
* Good teams (at least hitting wise) Texas (a great game)
* That leaves 2 wins against Cleveland early in the year before they got hot.
I can argue that he has one ace quality win this year.
Losses: With the exception of an Oakland loss where he gave up 2 earned runs (but 5 total), none of these is a quality start with fewer than 4 runs allowed
* Bad Teams: KC (2) Minnesota (on 9-25)
* Mediocre teams: Minnesota (on 8-17)
* Good teams: Oakland (2) Boston, Texas.
Zero ace like starts.
Non-Decisions:
* Mediocre team, good start - San Diego (no runs)
* Good teams, good start (runs allowed in parenthesis) LAA (1), Cleveland early (3)
* Good teams, bad start (runs allowed in parenthesis) Oakland (7), LAA (4) Boston (5), Cleveland (4) LAA (5)
2 ace like starts
There are reasons Buehrle is successful. He throws strikes, has good command, is a lefty, fields his position very well and he keeps hitters off balance by working quickly. This will make him effective against many hitters. It doesn't make him effective against the best teams, which in the American League have more good hitters, because he these qualities are insufficient. You need great stuff to get great hitters out
Mark Buehrle is not an ace. He was the best pitcher on a mediocre staff for 3 years. He is a number two or three starter. In this staff, right now he is number 3 behind Contreras and Garland. However, depending on his next start, McCarthy may be too hot to sit, which puts him at number four for the playoffs.
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There are 2 main reasons
- He hasn't been able to locate his change up
- He hasn't been throwing inside as much.
If he's spotting his change on the outside corner to righties in his next start, I'd be inclined to start him as soon as possible, which would probably be game #2.
by The Cheat on Sep 26, 2005 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Game 1
by shaftr on Sep 26, 2005 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a pretty safe assumption right now
Garcia, on regular rest would be available Oct. 4 for the start of the playoffs. Everyone else would need to be on short rest for game 1, if it starts on the 4th.
If I were to guess as of right now, it would be
- Contreras
- Buehrle
- Garcia (hold him back so he can start on the road)
- Garland
by The Cheat on Sep 26, 2005 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCarthy
by shaftr on Sep 26, 2005 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
by The Cheat on Sep 26, 2005 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you mean...
by shaftr on Sep 26, 2005 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
or the cell?
by dyspeptic on Sep 26, 2005 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boy I think so
by dyspeptic on Sep 26, 2005 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not convinced...
He had bad performances in April against Oakland and Minnesota when he supposed to be going well and good performances against Seattle and Baltimore in mid-August when he was thought to be struggling.
Things that work with weak teams won't work with good hitting teams. The assymetrical nature of rallies contributes to this. 2 hits in an inning can mean zero runs where as 3 can mean two runs. It's why walks kill you; you increase the chance that hits, which are statistically inevitable, will do more damage.
A mediocre hitter jams himself whereas a good hitter hits a double down the line. It's easy to throw inside against that bunch yesterday; not only are they less likely to do damage but even if somebody beats you, the guy after him and the guy after him are less likely to hurt you.
There is no way I start him before either Garland or Contreras.
by dyspeptic on Sep 26, 2005 3:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
that's some ggodd sppellimg
I made another mistakeI in the listing of his losses. He did not lose on 9-25 but won, His second loss to Minn was on April when he gave up 5 earned runs in 7 innings. It actually strengthens my argument as I would consider Minn still good at that point.
The strongest determinant for Buerlhe is whether his opposition is any good.
by dyspeptic on Sep 26, 2005 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you really want to look at something...
Buehrle seems to be the Sox pitcher who is most effected by the defense behind, or at least that is my hypothesis based on what I've witnessed this season.
That 5 run loss to Minny was a Johan start, where Crede (I think?) made a really poor play, that may or may not have been classified as an error -- Yeah, I think it was a botched double play, and Jones hit a 3 run HR right after it.
by The Cheat on Sep 26, 2005 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will
Hunter hit it
Difference in his losses between R and ER is 10 (46/36) which does seem like a lot. However, only once in his losses did he allow less than 4 earned runs. Buehrle also had a 7 ND against Oakland and 5 ND against LAA.
by dyspeptic on Sep 26, 2005 4:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what do southsidesox bloggers think?
They answered:
Garland 6 votes - 27 %
Buehrle 10 votes - 45 %
Garcia 1 vote - 4 %
McCarthy 5 votes - 22 %
El Duque 0 votes - 0 %
22 Total Votes
So with an albeit small statistical sample, that appears to have been directly affected by Buehrle's last start against the Twins- which I agree with dyspeptic-- shouldn't count for much because the twins already pathetic line up was lacking mauer and morneau, people seem to beleiev buehrle is the sox' #2.
ultimately, it'll come down to managerial instincts, especially as pertains to mccarthy. Clearly, buehrle has had some bruising starts against good teams-- but then the sample for mccarthy is too small to make any meaningful comparisons (but remember notable playoff explosions such as k-rod and beckett, who got their chances on well-played hunches)...and what about garcia...how has he been any better?
we have contreras at #1, probably garland at #2 and then after tha ozzie will have to puke up the answer.
by spengler on Sep 26, 2005 7:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Some answers
That means Jose Contreras would start Game 1and Mark Buehrle Game 2, with Freddy Garcia opening on the road.
Logically, Jon Garland would start Game 4 and Brandon McCarthy would be in the bullpen, although Garland's start Monday was nothing spectacular, certainly not in the class of McCarthy's starts of late.
by The Cheat on Sep 27, 2005 2:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I like Contreras followed by Buehrle
by spengler on Sep 28, 2005 11:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Data Please
Of course, the flip-side of your argument is necessarily that pitchers with "great stuff" somehow do worse than they should against bad teams. Take someone like Randy Johnson: this year, he and Buehrle have similar IP but Buehrle has a better ERA than Johnson (3.19 v. 3.79) despite the fact that Johnson has more strikeouts and better "stuff." If you are correct that Buehrle is only really successful against bad teams but gets excessively hammered by good ones (in a way that Johnson or other great stuff pitchers are not), you have to also conclude that Johnson has been excessively hammered by the bad teams or his overall numbers would be better than Buehrle's. Why on earth would anyone conclude that Randy Johnson is particularly vulnerable to bad hitters?
However, I guess it is possible that Buehrle, or pitchers like him, are particularly effective against bad teams and particularly ineffective against good ones. I don't think you can address this by looking at the opponents in retrospect and classifying them as good or bad. The judgment is too subjective and doesn't seem to address whether the opposition is good or bad based on its hitting or pitching. What we really need to assess your argument is to know (ideally over several seasons) how Buehrle fairs against good hitting teams and whether he is particularly vulnerable to them relative to other pitchers. Are you aware of any studies or data that correlate pitchers' effectiveness against the quality of their opposition? In the absence of such data, the argument strikes me as assertion without persuasive evidence.
by Landfill on Sep 30, 2005 10:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Start with this
This removes your concern about my classifications of teams, but I don't think it invalidates it and actually reinforces the overall point.If success is correlated to some level of offense and a team is winning there is a correlation between they are difficult to beat or not. And of course you can look at opponents in retrospect and see whether they were playing well or not. The Minnesota instance is particularly tenchant: they trotted out a lineup that would struggle in triple AAA.
You've misconstrued my point about stuff. I never said that all great stuff equals hard throwing. I think Garland has great stuff and Zito has great stuff and they don't throw hard. Great stuff is great pitches. If you have two you and can command them will be very successful in the Major leagues. Any preconceived prejudice in this regard is coming from you. Guys can throw hard and not have good stuff (Farnsworth) Guys can have good stuff and not have command (Contreras until 8 weeks ago). There are guys who have command (control) and not have great stuff and still make a living - Buerhle, Moyer, etc.
The point about Johnson is ludicrous. Johnson pitched badly this year. That's the determinant of his higher era. In fact if all pitchers ERA was detemined by simply the quality of the opposition there wouldn't be a need to make the point. The determinant of Mark Buerhle's ERA is his opponent.
That might mean that he chokes against big teams and that argument was what started this debate. But I disagree. I argue that Buerhle wins less because of great pitches and is more dependent on other factors (which I listed in the orginal post) which are less effective A.) against very good (or maybe experienced) hitters and B.) lineups with several good hitters. The skills that make Buerhle effective against less successful teams are less effective against good teams.
by dyspeptic on Sep 30, 2005 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replying To The Start
The comparison of Buehrle's record against over and under .500 teams is a useful data point but it doesn't really answer the question. Some teams over .500 were in the bottom half of runs scored (LA, Chicago, Minnesota) while some teams under .500 were in the top half (Toronto, Texas). That is hardly surprising. To make your point you need to demonstrate (ideally with data that stretches over more than one season) that Buehrle or pitchers like him give up more runs against the good offensive teams relative to other pitchers you classify as having great stuff.
I'm sorry, but I just don't understand your definition of stuff. "Great stuff is great pitches" is entirely circular. You seem to be saying that the components of pitching are velocity, command and "stuff" but what is that? Movement? Does stuff mean strike-outs? Does it correlate to something we can measure? Can you identify stuff pitchers so that we can compare their success against good hitting teams to Buehrle's? Perhaps if I understood what you were talking about, I would accept your point but by what measurable does Garland have better stuff than Buehrle and how does that lead us to the conclusion that Garland or other stuff pitchers are more likely to succeed against good hitters than Buehrle, Moyer, etc.
If you think my point about Johnson is ludicrous, than I suspect you did not understand it. (Incidentally, you might find your post more persuasive absent the invective.) You do not appear to have responded to it. You claim that Buehrle and other non-stuff pitchers do disproportionately well against bad hitters and correspondingly badly against good hitters. That means, if I understand your position correctly, that if there are two pitchers with similar over-all records, one with bad stuff and the other with good, the good stuff pitcher will be more likely to succeed against good hitters than the bad stuff one. Ok, that is a reasonable, testable assertion. But it necessarily follows from that position that the bad stuff pitcher is more likely to succeed against the poor hitters than the good stuff pitcher, otherwise their over-all records would not be similar. That does not make any sense to me. Why would Buehrle be more likely to succeed against the Royals than Colon or Johnson or who ever you contend is a great stuff pitcher with a similar performance record?
Similarly, why would the assets that you attribute to Buehrle (throwing strikes, command, lefty-ness, fielding, quick pace) not be useful against good hitters? Seems to me those are good traits for any pitcher, regardless of who he is facing. Can you demonstrate that pitchers with those traits, absent stuff, are disproportionately vulnerable to good hitters?
Now, I can imagine an argument that follows the Voros McCracken hypothesis of pitchers having no control on the fate of non-home run balls in play. The argument would go, I suppose, that pitchers who don't have a lot of strike outs give up a lot of balls in play and against good hitters, balls in play are more likely to be damaging than against poor hitters. That basically reduces to strike-outs and the assertion that strike-outs are more important against good hitters. But that does not seem to be your argument since you define Garland as a great stuff pitcher and Buehrle as a bad stuff one, even though Buehrle has better SO numbers.
Of course, you don't mean to say the only determinant of Buehrle's ERA is his opponent. Of course, quality of opposition correlates with a pitcher's success. I suspect that's true of every pitcher in creation, at least over a meaningful sample. But, again, to prove your point you need to define stuff and then show that those who don't have it do worse against good hitters than pitchers who have good stuff.
I guess what it boils down to is that I believe the best predictor of success is a pitcher's over-all established performance level and that outs are outs. It may be that there is some kind of pitcher who is more likely to succeed against some kind of hitter than a pitcher with a similar over-all record. (Ground ball pitchers vs. fly ball hitters comes to mind.) But I do not yet see any evidence that persuades me of your basic contention.
Thanks for the thought you put into this. It's fun to play around with these ideas.
by Landfill on Sep 30, 2005 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone like Bruce Sutter could come into a game
I'll bite at the opportunity to define terms. Maybe this will bring some clarity. I coach a little baseball, my kid is a pitcher and I assume that these terms are generally understood but maybe there are some regional or other variations that might mean they have less meaning to others. Velocity is often thought of as merely speed and the most over-rated element of pitching, However, velocity is also an element of command as the variance between the speed of the different pitches. A change up can be effective merely as a slower version of the fastball. The best recent example of this was Shingo Takatsu who depended almost solely upon variation of speed and made it work until he lost the other element of control which is accuracy. A pitcher like Greg Maddux can lack his best `stuff' ( wait one second) on a particular day but through throwing pitches where he wants them and throwing even the same pitch at different speed, defeat batters. In fact, I would argue this is about all that Jamie Moyer has.
When you hear someone say a pitcher has great stuff, it generally means idiosyncratic movement on a pitch. On a fast ball, rather than going in a predictable pattern it has alteration in course that simply makes it more difficult to hit. On a curveball it is "bite" which is a quicker, more violent (sideways or down) movement than just following a curving plane. A hung curve is a slow breaking and predictably path-ed curve and if the hitter is at all ready for it, it is over the fence. A slider (and for that matter the splitter/fork ball) is different in that it tricks the batter by looking like a fastball but still depends on a downward break to make it harder to hit. There are guys who make it all the way to the majors on one great pitch. Keith Foulke has his circle change which has great downward break and a mediocre fastball. But he mixes them up and has made a career. The totality of his stuff is that pitch.
Much of developing a pitcher is dependent on the development of the stuff. A pitcher with two effective fastballs, like a four seam that tails away and a cutter that moves into a right handed batter, may have enough stuff to pitch in the majors if he has control (command) of them. Some guys (Kyle Farnsworth) make it on the promise that they have enough velocity that their stuff might be developed. But guys like him and Billy Koch don't succeed for long because while they may have heat, they don't have stuff. Big league hitters will catch up to anybody eventually. It's a big concern of mine about Bobby Jenks whose fastball does not move very much
One of the problems we have here is that 'stuff' is unquantifiable and just does not appear in any statistic. You can see it and you can describe it, as I have attempted above, but it will never appear as data. It will only show up through observation. I got my MBA at a quant school and I could play around with these things but I don't think data captures everything. If you do, we should probably give up.
However Data wise: in re a study between good hitting teams versus successful teams: I moved around the teams into good hitting categories and it does narrow the margin to about .65 era. LAA is actually in the top half of runs so they don't move. Moving Toronto and Texas is fairly insignificant. He one great and one bad performance against Texas and one mediocre one v. Toronto. The real change comes mostly from Min. I'm certain this won't satisfy you, but I consider them a good offensive team that had a bad year. They are the Sox chief rivals and of the last 5 games he has pitched against them he has 4 losses and his one win was (three posts in a row) against a line up that was half minor leaguers and wholly given up.
As to the Johnson point, you make an assumption that pitchers are roughly the same from outing to outing and for stretches and periods of time. Variability means that some days guys are invincible against a good hitting team and sometimes they get roughed up by the D Rays. Slumps can be documented if not explained satisfactorily. Johnson's ERA is not as determining as Buerhle's against opponents - witness his 7 runs allowed performances against Det and TB surrounding a 1 run performance against a better Mets team. Pitching performance is variable and that pitchers do not have the same stuff each. Two points that this leads me to: One that pitchers with great stuff may have more variation, though this is hard if not impossible to quantify w/out some v. basic suppositions regarding indentifying stuff pitchers. And Two: that the things that Buerhle does help to reduce his variablilty.
I am concerned about being interpreted as employing invective but when you describe things as `entirely circular' you are likely to invoke that sort of response. However your point is taken and I will refrain from antagonizing words like ludicrous.
Let me re-state the point that the peripheral things that Buerhle does are more effective against worse hitting teams than better hitting teams and address your question as to why this doesn't make him more effective against better hitting teams. My point was they are more effective because he does all these things and does them better than most pitchers. Worse hitters tend to be younger and bad hitters, unless they are exceptional fielders (rare in today's game) don't stick around. Good hitters tend to be experienced and their talent allows them to work counts more effectively. Hitting with two strikes is no big deal for Poppy; it a disaster for Joe Borchard. Nor is it as a big deal to swing at the first pitch for a veteran, whereas younger players are expected to take the first pitch and are castigated if they make an out on a first pitch. Veterans have seen more lefties. Veterans know how to control the pace of an at bat and are given more leeway generally by umpires to do so. Good fielding however always helps.
I don't know (nor have I ever contracted) Voros McCracken but anyone who watches baseball knows there is a profound difference between a line drive and a pop up. Guys without a lot of movement on their pitches allow line drives. Guys with good stuff induce ground balls. That's what Garland gets. Guys like Buerhle get them from poor hitters, because of command and peripherals, but are less likely to do so from good hitters.I've heard baseball people say that strike outs are the most overrated stat there is. I tend to agree. There's a famous quote from Sandy Koufax that goes something like he didn't become a great pitcher until he started making hitters try and hit the ball rather try to make them miss it. I reject both the premise of the no control pitcher and also that strike outs are more important against good hitters. The more pitches a good hitter sees, the more opportunity he has to do damage. Get them out as quickly as possible.
I don't say that Buerhle's sole determinant is his opposition. I believe that he is more sensitive to variations in the skill and experience of his opposition. This has lead him to achieve more of his success against the bottom teams (in terms of winning percentage and runs scored). Part of this comes from the simple observation that he has not performed well against good and good hitting teams and especially when we needed him.
Tonight he was on your side. Are the Injuns choking? Are they coming back to mean after their streak?
Thanks for the challenge
by dyspeptic on Oct 1, 2005 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Dyspeptic
In order to make sense out of this one would have to find an agreeable way to place pitchers into one category or the other...which is often a matter of opinion and can vary with some players even from start to start.
I'm fascinated by this intersection between opinion and statistics. It's almost like trying to make Bill James play tiddlywinks with Joe Morgan....
Damn, it's really getting late...
by spengler on Oct 1, 2005 3:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oswaldo
Would hope for a comparison of steve stone over morgan but in reality jimmy piersall, with all the concommitant mental instability is more appropriate.
by dyspeptic on Oct 1, 2005 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha Your Piersall
by spengler on Oct 2, 2005 4:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Further on Data and Baseball Prospectus
"Reader KH asks "There has been grumbling among the Sox faithful that Mark Buehrle is a 'bottom-feeder' who only does well against bad teams but gets hit hard by the good teams. Off-the-cuff, this seems like old-school prejudice that guys who throw hard are the real, manly pitchers while craftsmen like Buehrle who only get it up to 91 mph are somehow not legit. There's also the obvious fact that all pitchers will tend to be hit harder by good-hitting teams and hit less by bad-hitting teams. However, I guess it is possible that Buehrle, or pitchers like him, are particularly effective against bad teams and particularly ineffective against good ones. Are you aware of any studies or data that correlate pitchers' effectiveness against the quality of their opposition?" Well KH, let's take a look, since I'm not aware of any study on this. W vs "good": Cle, Tor, Bal, Tex, Cle, Bal, Min L vs "good": Min, Oak, Oak, Bos, Min, Tex W vs "bad": Sea, Det, KC, LAD, KC, Det, Sea, Det L vs "bad": KC, KC Looks pretty even to me. Pitchers (and teams) are supposed to beat the bad teams. I mean, that's what makes them the bad teams, right? This is very unscientific and some granularity about the quality of the lineups would tell us more. It's an interesting question, almost the reverse of the "Does Adam Dunn kill bad pitching?" question that intrigues me so."
Maybe one of the BP seamheads will take up the challenge and see if there is some kind of rigorous answer to the question. Until I see that kind of data, however, Buehrle starts Game 2 for me.
by Landfill on Sep 30, 2005 1:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I did a
There was a definite correlation between his ERA, WHIP, and BAA, vs. a teams' winning %. -- It's not a direct relationship, but there was definitely some anecdotal evidence there.
by The Cheat on Sep 30, 2005 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudimentary Study
by Landfill on Sep 30, 2005 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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