NOOOOOOOOOO!

I knew Kenny liked Danks and Masset...

but Jeebus.

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2006 1:52 PM CST reply actions

I like this trade

Danks will be a better pitcher then McCarthy in the long run and Nick will improve our pen in 2007 and beyond.

Now go get that OF Kenny!

by Jim in Maine on Dec 23, 2006 7:57 PM CST up reply actions

Love Danks

just as good as BMac if not better, plus BMAC's homer totals in the cell have made me nervous over the past 2 years.

by tubesox on Dec 23, 2006 2:03 PM CST reply actions

danks is better than BMac

in my opinion. BMac is probably a middle of the rotation guy; danks is probably a top of the rotation guy.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 3:00 PM CST up reply actions

So, this makes no sense.....

Young pitching for even younger pitching??

by Tony82087 on Dec 23, 2006 2:08 PM CST reply actions

this trade

this trade is fucking garbage...

they could have gotten soriano earlier, and i dont want to hear about "the money issues" and stuff.

im really disappointed with kenny on this one...
not because sox could have gotten mccarthy, but whatever happened to trading mccarthy for a ROCCO BALDELLY OR CARL CRAWFORD?!

Nope. lets stick with the inconsistent fuckin scott podsednik

excuse my language.

by LeftyPride on Dec 23, 2006 2:09 PM CST reply actions

this trade

"not because the sox could have gotten mccarthy"*

-i meant "not because the sox could have gotten soriano"

and baldelly = baldelli.

by LeftyPride on Dec 23, 2006 2:12 PM CST reply actions

soriano went into free agency at the end of the year, and we all know how much he went for and how the sox wouldn't have gotten him.
and maybe a move for baldelli or crawford is coming now, as we have a surplus of young pitching. this way, if any of them fail after we trade, we wouldn't be bitten in the ass as much

by jd23 on Dec 23, 2006 2:14 PM CST up reply actions

umm

i'm confused. long term, this deal is probably fine, because Danks is a good prospect and so is Masset. Still, McCarthy would have been our 5th starter, now what?

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 23, 2006 2:14 PM CST reply actions

good point

i like your view.
alright im calmed down a little bit haha. its just that... i dont know, i dont think any of us thought mccarthy would be gone.
so it caught me by surprise.

i feel like talking baseball
AIM- NeverEnough013
if you want to.

-steve

by LeftyPride on Dec 23, 2006 2:16 PM CST reply actions

B-Mac

will suck in Texas. Nice scouting there by those goofs.

Here's the BA report on Danks and Masset from my angry buddy Aaron Fitt.

Danks:
Background: Throughout his career, Danks has been one of the youngest pitchers in his league and has started off each new stop by struggling against older competition. But every year, he makes adjustments, masters the level and advances to the next challenge. After he stumbled to a 7.15 ERA in April at Double-A Frisco, he went 4-0, 2.70 in his next eight starts to earn a promotion. He posted a 5.90 ERA in his first eight starts at Triple-A Oklahoma, then rallied to turn in a 2.32 ERA in his final six. Because he's lefthanded and has a deeper and more consistent repertoire, he has passed the other members of the DVD trio (Edinson Volquez, Thomas Diamond) to become the top pitching prospect in the system. The ninth overall pick in the 2003 draft, Danks comes from an athletic family. His father John played basketball at Texas, younger brother Jordan is a sophomore outfielder for the Longhorns and a possible first-rounder in the 2008 draft, and younger sister Emily is a standout high school volleyball player.

Strengths: Danks offers a rare package for a 21-year-old lefthander, with a polished three-pitch mix and a track record of success up through Triple-A. His tight 1-to-7 curveball rated as his best pitch coming out of high school, but since then his tumbling changeup has also become a plus offering. His changeup is now more reliable than his curveball. He also has a four-seam fastball that sits at 90-92 mph and tops out at 94. Danks added a two-seam version in 2006 to help him widen the strike zone. He has a clean arm action from a high-three-quarters slot and does a good job repeating his easy delivery. Danks has started to fill out his durable, athletic frame, and he could add a little more velocity. His baseball IQ is outstanding, and he has a better feel for pitching than most hurlers his age. He does a good job of holding runners, as nine of 21 basestealers (43 percent) were caught on his watch in 2006.

Weaknesses: At this point, it's just a matter of fine-tuning for Danks. He still needs to command his fastball better, because while he can throw it for strikes at any time, he gets punished sometimes when he leaves it up in the zone. His fastball is firm but not overpowering, so he needs to get ahead with it early in the count. Danks' command of his curveball comes and goes, though his changeup often bails him out. He'll need a more consistent curve in order to reach his ceiling as a No. 2 starter.

The Future: There was some sentiment that Danks could have started 2006 in the big leagues, but the Rangers were determined not to rush him and will continue to be patient. He'll have a chance to force his way into the big league rotation during spring training, but the more likely scenario is a return to Triple-A and a midseason debut in the majors. Once he settles in, Danks should pitch at or near the front of the Texas rotation for years to come.

Masset:
Background: Masset has possessed tantalizing stuff ever since his high school days, when Tommy John surgery as a senior hurt his draft stock. Signed as a draft-and-follow for $225,000, he appeared on the verge of big things after his breakout 2004 season, but got crushed in 2005 and was inconsistent in 2006. He finished the season in the majors before dominating as a closer in the Mexican Pacific League.

Strengths: Masset throws his fastball at 89-95 mph as a starter but ran it up to 97-98 in bullpen in Texas and Mexico. His hard 85-86 mph curveball with sharp downward bite rates as a plus pitch. His changeup and cutter/slider are at least average and help him against lefthanders.

Weaknesses: Erratic command spoiled Masset's 2005 season and still makes him more hittable than he should be. Despite his impressive array of four pitches, he has yet to locate them well enough to be a reliable starter. He showed plenty of moxie to bounce back from 2005 but must prove he can sustain success.

The Future: Masset may have pitched his way into the big league bullpen role with his strong winter. He still has the stuff and frame to be a durable, effective starter if he can master his command.

by Bull Pain on Dec 23, 2006 2:16 PM CST reply actions

Williams must adore Danks

I would not have been surprised to see Garland or Vazquez go to Texas, but assumed McCarthy was untouchable. Given how big the stockpile of young pitchers is now, it seems likely another move (maybe Buehrle for Crawford?) is coming.

Does this mean Floyd and Haeger battle for the #5 slot? I would love to see Haeger in the rotation. Poor McCarthy goes from one launching pad to another. Maybe before his career ends he will get to go home to Colorado.

by asinwreck on Dec 23, 2006 2:31 PM CST reply actions

buehrle not going anywhere

maybe toronto for rios, but no one wants to give up prized players the likes of crawford for a one year shot with buehrle.

Wow do we have a lot of pitching, what a job Kenny has done, this was still a 90-100-win lineup, but the overall pitching has improved, especially the bullpen and the whole minor league pitching has upgraded drastically, have to admire a man who can do that.

if we get crawford somehow, i will wear my sox jersey to midnight mass tomorrow

by tubesox on Dec 23, 2006 2:41 PM CST reply actions

Surplus of pitching prospects for Crawford?

Then KW's recent activity makes some sense...

by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 23, 2006 2:47 PM CST up reply actions

Not sure if this is still a 90-plus win team

We now have 4 reliable starters instead of 5. And we pretty much have the same lineup from last year. Getting crawford is unlikely IMO.

Let's not discount the division rivals either. Although Minnesota is weaker, Cleveland is going to come back strong.

by onlysoxfaninboston on Dec 23, 2006 2:51 PM CST up reply actions

Merry Christmas, Kenny!

You always keep me guessing. You have what I considered to be a pretty tame off-season, and then you go and do something like this. I am thrilled with this trade.

Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 23, 2006 2:51 PM CST reply actions

LOL

Wow, "Tubesox" that was funny.
"if we get crawford somehow, i will wear my sox jersey to midnight mass tomorrow"

that would be classic

by LeftyPride on Dec 23, 2006 2:53 PM CST reply actions

this deal makes sense

long-term, of course. i'm now concerned about that 5th starter spot (and LF, too).

but, as i and a few others have been telling the less faithful on here, the offseason doesn't end in november (or december). there's still plenty of time before the indians arrive.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 2:57 PM CST reply actions

I'm sad to see

McCarthy gone, but at the same time, Kenny is looking toward the future (and its so bright, you might even need shades). I now expect to see MB to Toronto or to St. Louis. Cooper and KW must see Haeger as the 5th starter and very PRO Haeger so in that regard I'm happy.

by beautox on Dec 23, 2006 3:00 PM CST reply actions

so who is our 4th starter then?

i'm not so sure about yet another starter being traded. now i think we'll be bringing one on.

i'm fully expecting two more major (as defined as starter or everyday player) trades before april.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 3:05 PM CST up reply actions

well

if MB goes to the cards then Reyes/Wainwright and if another team a battle royal in ST, i think Broadway even has an outside shot, he should be ready mid '07.

by beautox on Dec 23, 2006 3:54 PM CST up reply actions

we ain't getting

reyes/wainwright for one year of MB. while i would do that in a heartbeat, that's ridiculous. broadway could be an eventual solution, but i don't think it's a good idea to rely on an untried pitcher possibly being ready mid-season. in our division, a lack of a credible 5th starter could pretty much eliminate you from the race by then.

i don't see KW trading any more of our starters. it's more likely, in my opinion, that we bring in a starter.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 4:36 PM CST up reply actions

from the press conference

https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=31028460&postID=8060956225338102442

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 23, 2006 3:26 PM CST reply actions

the outlook for next season

Right now, we have 4 strong pitchers in
Contreras,Garland, Buerhle, and Vazquez. The 5th starter question is not as bad as you may think. Floyd, Haeger, and Danks are candidates in spring training.
I believe that Floyd will be very beneficial from the change of scenery, as many scouts and baseball fans do.

If you look at the job Coop has done with his pitchers, in Jenks, Thornton, MacDougal, even Neal Cotts, and believe it or not- Esteban Loaiza after the sox claimed him off of waivers, you have to think that Coop and Williams have seen something in all of these young pitchers.

I think Coop can fix up Floyd's inconsistensy, and I think that the sox will have no problem with the 5th starter next year. Especially with the first 4 horses all being stoppers.

As for the other problems.
Left field, quite possibly center field,lead-off hitter and Shortstop.. those all need to be addressed. Shortsop, not so much.. but

Whitesox can use some of their surplus of young pitchers to trade for a leadoff outfielder. but you never know.

I would expect a deal for an actual major leaguer by spring training.

Thanks for reading this, it was a really long comment.

by LeftyPride on Dec 23, 2006 3:29 PM CST reply actions

Another minor detail..........

If we believe Danks can be everything and possibly more than McCarthy....we save some time 'til the McCarthy-Danks spot is arbitration eligible....

by stanchar on Dec 23, 2006 3:35 PM CST up reply actions

Haeger's......

2005 numbers are too hard to ignore and I think there might be some who are too quick to judge him from an understandably unsuccessful start against Anaheim last May. He's got a chance to be a good one I think....

by stanchar on Dec 23, 2006 3:38 PM CST reply actions

So, as Mark Gonzalez points out...

Losses

Cotts
Garcia
Gload
McCarthy
Paisano

Gains

Aardsma
Danks
Floyd
Gio Gonzalez
Toby Hall
Masset
Rasner
Sisco
Vazquez

Seems like a whale of a deal to me.

Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 23, 2006 3:40 PM CST reply actions

ichiro

this may be hard to swallow for a level headed fan like myself, but i wonder with 1-year on his deal if we can pry him away for CF, his original position. We did have a decent relationship with the old front office, and they still need a starter!

just a scenario, but he comes cheaper then baldelli, crawford

i also know kenny loves andrew jones, and the braves still need a lot, i'd even try to nab laroche for left, but we still would need a leadoff man

by tubesox on Dec 23, 2006 4:04 PM CST reply actions

Our 5th starter...

may be shaky next season between Gavin Floyd and Charlie Haeger but I think our bullpen is going to be filthy. According to this link, it sounds like Kenny is set on Sisco being our longman / second lefty in the bullpen.

Andy Sisco
Nick Masset
David Aardsma
Mike MacDougal
Matt Thornton
Bobby Jenks

That's a nasty, young, and dirt-cheap bullpen if they throw strikes.

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2006 4:30 PM CST reply actions

key being if they throw strikes

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 4:37 PM CST up reply actions

Exactly.

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2006 4:40 PM CST up reply actions

Jenks

Jenks is also the only bullpen arm left from the world series team

Where's MIKE CARUSO!!!! haha

by marco054 on Dec 23, 2006 4:39 PM CST up reply actions

not really all that unusual

in the baseball world for your bullpen to turnover that quickly. top-level closers are really the only ones who tend to have longevity with a particular team. everyone else either becomes a starter, becomes nomadic, or fizzles out.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 4:45 PM CST up reply actions

Ranger Fans

I was lookin at alot of their comments on the trade and most of them didn't like the trade either. I guess most fans value their own prospects over other teams

Where's MIKE CARUSO!!!! haha

by marco054 on Dec 23, 2006 4:36 PM CST reply actions

Makes sense to me...

for now, the Rangers are better with this trade. McCarthy might be a good #3 (but I doubt it at that ballpark). But for the future, Danks has #1 or #2 type stuff. Masset was probably a huge part of the deal for Kenny as well. He is now in love with hard-throwing pitchers, even if they have control issues.

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2006 4:38 PM CST up reply actions

I agree

I like this trade. I never though McCarthy was anything great but he would be a good pitcher and the Rangers desperately need good pitchers

Where's MIKE CARUSO!!!! haha

by marco054 on Dec 23, 2006 4:41 PM CST up reply actions

but they

shouldn't like the deal. from the present talent/potential perspective, this is a pretty clear win for KW. now, if the rangers win the world series in the next couple years with BMac playing a role, it could change. but, long-term, this is also more likely to be a white sox winner, as well. danks alone is likely to be better than mccarthy; throw in masset...

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 4:42 PM CST up reply actions

can you please explain me how danks is likely

to be better than B-Mac?

B-Mac never had a WHIP above 1.20 in his minor league career with an average of 1.09
danks has an average of 1.37

throw in masset

wow, a 1.5 WHIP in 6 minor league seasons

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 23, 2006 5:15 PM CST up reply actions

a lot of this has been discussed

so i'll just distill some of it and add a couple things. by the way, this isn't hard science - it's opinion so we certainly can disagree. i think part of the difference, as the poster with mike caruso in his name noted, is that we like/know our prospects better than other team's prospects.

the problem danks has had is control - if i'm recalling correctly, largely with his fastball. BMac never really had much problem with his control - certainly not as much as danks - in the minors. that explains the difference in WHIP to a degree. i'd also point out, as someone else has, that danks was promoted more quickly than BMac.

i'm basing my opinion - just like a lot of others with more knowledge than me (sickel, baseball america) - on his superior stuff. danks just has a bit better of a repetoire and, when he gets his control taken care of, i think he'll end up being very good. i've always seen him rated as a #1-2 guy (probably closer to a 2) whereas BMac always was rated as a #2-4 (probably closer to a very good 3). we'll see what actually happens.

as for masset, that's like frosting on a brownie. not necessary but sure makes it taste better. he'll be a guy to put in the back of the bullpen. my point was more that i probably would have taken BMac for danks straight up (i wouldn't expect KW to do that, of course, but i'm a gambler) so getting even a bag of balls above that is good.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:28 PM CST up reply actions

control

when he gets his control taken care of

is this something that's very likely to happen?
I really really really hope so...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 23, 2006 5:35 PM CST up reply actions

one of the main things the minors are for

is getting a pitcher's control sorted out. his control problems have been never been described as overwhelming - he wouldn't be a top ranked prospect or at AAA if they were. i believe it's been consistency of control and not an overall lack of it that's an issue. that's generally something all minor leaguers (or at least guys at AA and above) go through and is a relatively easy fix. part of it is simply developing stamina and strength and part of it is mechanics. one of the things people sometimes forget is that players at 18-22 are still developing their bodies; increases in size/strength can cause slight mechanical issues that just need to be smoothed out as they develop.

take solace in the fact that we've got some of the best pitching coaches from AA on up in baseball.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:49 PM CST up reply actions

Why is that?

I think Danks and McCarthy are very similar. Very similar repetiours (sp?), three pitches, strong changeups for both. I guess Danks gets an extra point or two for being lefty, but he hasn't dominated AA or AAA the way McCarthy did. McCarthy also has proven he can get major league hitters out, albeit in a small amount of time (60 or so innings in 2005).

Yes, I understand the solid ramifications for 2008 and beyond, but who is our fifth starter in 2007? Gavin Floyd? Charlie Haeger? Someone tell me with a straight face that they'd have a lot of confidence in either of those two having a starting rotation spot in 2007.

Here's a way to make sense of this trade: Go out and make a one year offer to Roger Clemens that he can't refuse. One year, $20-23 million. That way I don't have to hear about the Sox 'cutting payroll' anymore. Honestly, I realize it's a slim hope, but inking Clemens makes SO much fucking sense at this point.

by CWSKeith on Dec 23, 2006 4:53 PM CST reply actions

I disagree

About the importance of a 5th starter. One of the guys sitting around (maybe even Danks) will win the spot in spring training and become hopefully a slightly worse than league average pitcher. The 5th starter isn't going to make as many starts as the rest of the guys, and thus just isn't that important of a position.

What I'm hoping for is that this move is a prelude to another trade that nets a quality outfielder. If the Sox can upgrade the outfield using only prospects I'll be thrilled.

Danks hasn't shown the control that BMAC did in AAA, but Danks was pitching as a 21 yeard old in AAA last year, whereas BMAC was a full year older. Isn't Charlotte a good pitchers park as well? Danks did strike out slightly over a batter an inning in AAA last year as a 21 yeard old. That is pretty impressive. I fully expect him to dominate AAA this year in Charlotte just like BMAC did a few years ago.

If he dominates AAA like he projects, than the Sox will have a 22 year old front of the line pitcher on their hands with even more years until Arbritation than BMAC. If Masset pans into just a league average bullpen guy or back of the rotation starter this will be a clear win for the Sox. He appears to be another hard throwing project.

It's a small step back for 2006 as presently construed, but again: I'm hoping it's a prelude to another deal, now that the minor league pitching staff once again has some good depth. The obvious key to a good minor league system is acumlating enough guys to where a few can't help but pan out. I think this move indicates such an organizational philosophy.

I like the deal, BMAC is a good pitcher and I'm sad to see him go, but I'll live with Danks and Masset.

by madvillian on Dec 23, 2006 5:08 PM CST up reply actions

not sure if you're responding to me

but danks is projected as a top of the rotation guy while BMac is projected as a middle of the rotation guy. danks, quite frankly, has better stuff than mccarthy - especially for a place like the cell. i mean, there's a reason one was the 9th pick overall and the other was picked in the 17th round. that doesn't necessarily translate to getting guys out at the major league level but his ceiling is higher than BMac.

i hear you about the 5th spot. you've got one way to make sense of it - and i know with good authority that the sox are not looking to cut payroll, as some have suggested. the money is certainly there if KW finds someone who he thinks is worth the cash. everyone needs to remember that we're only looking at a partially completed puzzle.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:09 PM CST up reply actions

I was responding to Keith's

idea that none of us can really be confident in the 5th starter (whoever it may be) this year. I just don't think the 5th starter is that important. I feel some fans forever have the 2003-2004 Sox team in their minds, which was perhaps the first teams in the history of baseball that could not find a replacement level 5th starter, and lost a bunch of games because of it.

It looks like out of this primordial puddle of hard throwers, someone is going to emerge as a decent 5th starter.

Is the rotation as good in 2007 as it was a few hours ago? No. I'd be a dogmatic fool to think that.

But I agree completely with you on Danks. His cieling is higher than BMAC's. BMAC posted some pretty sick numbers in AAA though, and pitched decently in MLB as well. I'm sad to see such a good young player (performance wise) go, but I think Danks will prove to be a better long term player than BMAC, possibly even as soon as this year.

I'll be spending the next few days reading as much as possible about Danks and his stats. I've glanced them over, along with some scouting on him. I like what I've seen so far. He looks to have a very bright future. Baseball America is too toolsy for my liking, but they still had Massett as the 8th best prospect in the Ranger system this winter. Danks obviously was number 1.

Massett intriques me as well, just because he's a hard thrower

by madvillian on Dec 23, 2006 5:18 PM CST up reply actions

notice where my response was nested

that was to keith. you must think i can really read/type lightning fast if i were responding to you!

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:33 PM CST up reply actions

since when we judge a baseball by his draft slot?

B-Mac's numbers look superior to me...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 23, 2006 5:20 PM CST up reply actions

knew that would get jumped on

guys with better raw "stuff" get picked. danks has better stuff and, therefore, a higher ceiling. i thought i'd made that point clear enough. sorry.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:32 PM CST up reply actions

"get picked EARLIER"

is what that should have said.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:41 PM CST up reply actions

how are B-Mac and danks ''very similar''?

like I wrote above, B-Mac never had a WHIP above 1.20 in his minor league career with an average of 1.09
danks has an average of 1.37

tell me how? please...

B-Mac is far more of a sure thing
danks is an if

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 23, 2006 5:30 PM CST up reply actions

you'd fit in really well

on the white sox draft team. they love "sure things." it's one of the reasons our organization is filled with guys projected to be #3-5 starters.

BMac is certainly a pretty sure thing. i think at this point just about everyone would agree that he'll have a long career in the bigs. but no risk, no reward. danks is a #1 prospect. he's a possible #1 starter, as well, something no one would ever accuse mccarthy - or anyone else in our organization outside of MB - of being.

i'm sure no one is going to sway you right now, so i'll just say that we should have this conversation again in three or four years. i have a feeling you'll have come around by then.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 5:40 PM CST up reply actions

yes

let's have it again in 3-4 years
I hope I'm proven wrong (to me bmac seems like a #2 guy)

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 23, 2006 5:56 PM CST up reply actions

one other item to add

which may make some feel a bit better about this. a sox scout i'm acquainted with spent so much time in frisco this year that he may as well have moved to dallas. he wasn't the only one, either. and they also had plenty of scouts in oklahoma. in other words, there was some really, really heavy scouting done of the rangers system (much moreso than other teams). these guys have been more than fully vetted.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 6:05 PM CST up reply actions

Vetted - legalese

I prefer "the due diligence has been thorough".

Bottom line - more talent, higher ceiling, perhaps, but still need to swing an LF, (maybe) CF to get my engine going. Otherwise, we have a bunch of young talent that has not done much in a major league setting. And B-Mac, in his limited (starting) efforts, has for 1+ seasons.

Or has everyone forgotten how outraged the press (and some of us) was that B-Mac was left off the 2005 playoff roster after his wondrous Sept.? Or how he was sure to be the only SP untouchable in this offseason?

More Coop work to be done.

by winningugly on Dec 24, 2006 9:54 AM CST up reply actions

Like the deal, raised eyebrow.

My first thought was Kenny must be planning to do SOMETHING with the outfield. I like the talent. In fact I like all the talent. The Sox CANT help but hit on at least 1 or 2 of these guys (all trades). Maybe Rocco enters the picture again.

More importantly I am starting to feel better about competing this year, next and next... Lets face it, the Central is poised to be the shit for a few years.

Williams does have plan. That is WAY better than most GMS.

Dude just get me an outfielder. The Central is still winnable.

by Tdogg on Dec 23, 2006 5:18 PM CST reply actions

Could we be after Zito now?

Just.Win.

by hawksview on Dec 23, 2006 5:58 PM CST reply actions

i like the way you think

he's a boras client so there's that (i should note, danks is also a boras client - but we have a while before we have to deal with him there). but the money is there if we wanted to make an offer. i'd say it's a longshot - i'm not sure the mets will allow themselves to be outbid.

by larry on Dec 23, 2006 6:08 PM CST up reply actions

I really doubt it.

Zito's going to get between 5-8 years, and there is nothing in Jerry Reinsdorf's post-Navarro behavior that would lead me to believe that's a possibility.

A big one-year Clemens deal, on the other hand, would make perfect sense (if Clemens was willing to leave Texas for someplace other than NYC or Boston).

by asinwreck on Dec 23, 2006 6:10 PM CST up reply actions

my swag also

but doesn't help the Scotty Posucknik situation much....

Now that windmill Joey has taken a seat, I need a new tag line. I'm gonna appropriate this one..

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 24, 2006 2:39 AM CST up reply actions

ny daily news

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/16311150.htm

Mets believe chances of getting Zito just improved

By John Harper

New York Daily News

(MCT)

NEW YORK - The Mets believe their chances of signing free agent Barry Zito improved on Saturday night with the news that the Texas Rangers, apparently discouraged about their own pursuit of Zito, traded top prospects to the White Sox for highly regarded righthander Brandon McCarthy.

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 24, 2006 2:54 AM CST up reply actions

I liked Brandon as much as the next guy,

but sometimes you've got to take chances. He's shown he can get big leaguers out--and also shown he loves to give up home runs to the clip of about 1 per 5 innings pitched...home AND away.

Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 23, 2006 6:38 PM CST reply actions

I like KW's thinking

He's not content with a #3 type SP. He wants more. The ceiling of Danks alone is worth BMac. But Masset could be the lights out set up guy/ closer the sox could never have enough of. MacDougal's health scares me as the only backup plan at closer

I also am glad what this also shows--the sox like Haeger a lot. Probably enough to make him the #5 guy. Few teams would have given the sox the arms like Bmac did for Haeger.

by cfisk72 on Dec 23, 2006 6:56 PM CST reply actions

Thanks for talking me off the ledge

I just heard about this trade and my first reaction was that I hated it. "How could we trade McCarthy? He was a sure thing!"

But after coming here and reading everyone else's take on this, I feel a lot better. A little knowledge is a good thing.

Yet another example of why this is the best place on the intertubes for the thinking Sox fan. Happy holidays to everyone!

by lofistew on Dec 23, 2006 7:02 PM CST reply actions

Scouting versus performance

So, I don't like the deal. McCarthy has put up decent numbers in the maajor leagues. Danks and Masset have been thoroughly mediocre in the minors. As larry has posted, obviously Sox scouts have seen these guys and know more about baseball than I do.

But, I'm very wary of guys like Floyd and too a lesser degree Danks who have scouting raves and high draft position, but don't have perfromance to match. It will be interesting to see if the scouts are right. I will say that there are innumerable prospects that peoplel thought would be great once they "harnessed their stuff" and conquered their control problems. It doesn't happen that often.

And I can't believe peopel are excited about Masset. Trading for a relief propsect (a setup man at that) rarely seems like a good idea. Masset is a failed starter converted to relief, and the Sox already have Floyd that could have filled that role.

And for all the Sox trades, they still have no one to fill the holes in CF/LF and they've weakened the biggest problem area (starting pitching). It doesn't look good to me...

by hitlesswonder on Dec 23, 2006 7:39 PM CST reply actions

Well...

I worship at the altar of sabermetrics and performance based scouting, but you have to take some things into consideration when looking at Danks' minor league numbers:

He's playing against guys older than him and holding his own.
Apparently he was told to not throw his best pitch as much -- the curve -- and focus on his changeup.

I'd be interested to see what his ZiPs are for this year. I have to guess they see something around 150 IP, 120K, 50BB, and prolly an ERA around 4.80. If he does that, I'll be thrilled. As a 22 year old that would be fairly impressive.

Here is something from (I think, couldn't find a date, just references to "this season 2005) from around 2005 that I found on a Rangers site:

Danks has had a lot of fans since the Rangers drafted him out of his Texas high school. A big fan of Danks this preseason was Dan Perry of FoxSports who earlier this June ranked Danks as his top left-handed prospect in the minors. Danks is the youngest of the three future stars in Texas, a recently-turning twenty year old who is now in AA. Danks's stat line is impressive in it's own right. He owns a career 9.3 K/9, a 2.9 strikeout to walk ratio, a .243 opponent batting average, and a .309 OBP. Better yet, a 0.6 home run rate which is tough to do when you spend time in the California league as he did last year. Another point to note is that Danks was told to lay off his curveball last year to work on his changeup and he more than held his own. There have been many a young pitcher who have been forced into that situation and haven't done as well as Danks did. The fastball is already good and the curveball is killer; if the changeup catches up to the other two, American League batters are in trouble.

by madvillian on Dec 23, 2006 8:05 PM CST up reply actions

Volquez...

Edinson (sp?) Volquez was one of the "three future stars" mentioned there. His numbers, at least at a surface level, were as good as Danks. I think BA had Volquez rated higher in 2004 or 2005. He had a 7.29 ERA in 34 innings with Texas last year and a WHIP of 2.00.

I'm not saying Edinson might not turn things around (it was only 33 innings, he might be hurt, etc.), but it's those kind of performances going from AAA to MLB that make me pessimistic about most pitching prospects. Despite his HR rate, McCarthy has shown he could compete in the bigs, at least to me.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 23, 2006 8:14 PM CST up reply actions

Danks' 2006 ZiPS

Are worse than I thought:

151IP, 5.36ERA, only 105K, and 52BB.

hmm, are the ZiPS park adjusted? I hope so. Not that the Cell is much better than Bank One though.

by madvillian on Dec 23, 2006 8:11 PM CST reply actions

Bank One is Arizona's ballpark I think

for the record: I think B-Mac will have a better major league career than danks will

I hope I'm proven wrong (and danks has a career equally as good, I'm wishing the best to bmac)

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 23, 2006 8:19 PM CST up reply actions

ha

Yea, I just kinda guessed at that one. I guess Texas plays at "Ameriquest Field"...gee how could I have forgotten that classic name?

by madvillian on Dec 23, 2006 8:23 PM CST up reply actions

Actually, with the merger

They're Chase Field in Arizona, now.

I wonder what they're going to name all these ballparks when there's one mega-bank in America, and one mega-corporation that owns everything.

by JohnGor0 on Dec 26, 2006 8:35 AM CST up reply actions

BP's take

Nate Silver on the dirty deal:

http://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=116&PHPSESSID=b0dc1e26cafe885f808d797e9b1136d2

by madvillian on Dec 23, 2006 8:22 PM CST reply actions

Everybody mark down April 17-19 on the

calendar for the return of B-Mac to the scene of the crime.

Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Dec 23, 2006 11:48 PM CST reply actions

Mr. Rogers weighs in

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-061223rogers,1,1115531.column?co ll=cs-home-headlines

White Sox taking a scary leap

GM Williams rolls dice with dubious trade of McCarthy

Hey, Brandon McCarthy. Danks for the memories.

"Sorry. That's the office-party eggnog talking. Or maybe it's just a case of being punch-drunk from White Sox general manager Ken Williams' ultra-aggressive, shop-till-you-drop (even if you don't need anything) trades."

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 24, 2006 3:04 AM CST reply actions

I'm repeating what's already been said

The more I think about it, the more I love this trade.

If Danks=B-Mac, then laterally it's not bad simply because of the likes of Sizemore, Hafner, Mauer, Morneau and even Teahan. And along those lines, it's also an insurance move to combat the possible departure of Beuhrle after this season.

From what I've read, Masset is tearing some winter league and has a Jenks like fastball to boot.

Basically it comes down to a 2 for 1, and KW stockpiling talent and replenishing the farm system. Maybe in advance of a trade for an outfielder.

(In my heart of hearts I don't think KW will pick up an OF, least not 'til the trade deadline. The Pods resigning just rubbed me the wrong way.)

Ross Gload: KC Royal -- WTF?

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 24, 2006 8:55 AM CST reply actions

One more thing

I guess I'm a little old school in that I'd like to reserve some of my judgment until I see Danks and Masset throw. KW and the organization had the luxury of scouting those guys in person; I have not.

Based solely on word of mouth and what I've read, I still like the trade, but as much as sabrmetrics has helped in evaluating talent, I think you need to add the human element as well.

Therefore, sabr+scouting = the best evaluation process, and I have yet to see them pitch.

Having seen B-Mac, I know Texas is getting a decent pitcher, but this isn't Garland for Karchner territory. Nor is it Todd Ritchie territory either. It sounds like a good deal for both teams.

Ross Gload: KC Royal -- WTF?

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 24, 2006 9:10 AM CST up reply actions

Mary Otti

Trade-happy GM butchers rotation by dealing McCarthy

http://www.suntimes.com/lifestyles/184563,CST-SPT-jay24.article

"I reject your reality and substitute my own"

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 24, 2006 9:24 AM CST reply actions

Mary Mary

Am I the only one who feels his IQ level shrink when reading him? And when the hell did McCarthy become a "Cant miss prospect?"

I love Brandon but cmon.

by Tdogg on Dec 24, 2006 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

wow

that was quite possibly the most uneducated piece of trash i have ever read. i am positively stupider for having read it and jay mariotti owes me 8 minutes of my life that i will never get back.

by brianekst on Dec 25, 2006 12:11 AM CST up reply actions

More Mariotti Douchebaggery

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/?p=8703

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 26, 2006 5:10 PM CST up reply actions

ya because jay mariotti

knows more about baseball than kenny williams... i hated this trade at first, until i saw someone post that mccarthy is completely overrrated by sox fans.. which is true. most rangers fans arent happy with this trae either because they feel they could of gotten more for their top pitching prospect danks... who has better stuff than mccarthy and is a LEFTY. masset will be an immediate help to our now ML best bullpen. this trade will also look really good in the sox favor as soon as maybe june when mccarthys era soars due to him pitching the leagues best hitting ball park and him being a fly-ball pitcher with the problem of giving up the long ball...and as for the fifth starter with there being competition between 5 or 6 young starters one of them will come out and perform like they never have and easily match if not outperform mccarthy

by Jbasic89 on Dec 24, 2006 10:31 AM CST reply actions

Ballpark and league environments

One huge difference between McCarthy and Danks in the minors is that Danks has performed in very hitter friendly environments his last two stops as opposed to relatively pitcher friendly environments for McCarthy. Although Charlotte inflates home runs it actually depresses other kinds of hits and is only a slight hitter's park overall. Birmingham is a pitcher's park in a pitcher's league. The IL as whole is much more pitcher friendly than the PCL.

In fact the Texas League, PCL and Cal leagues are probably the 3 best hitting environments in the minors. For Danks to have performed as well as he has in those leagues at his age is actually fairly remarkable.

Factoring those things in Danks had a very similar performance at AAA at a younger age as a lefty. Now of course McCarthy's advantage is that he has already performed fairly well at the big league level in a number of appearances. Overall I probably wouldn't trade them straight up, but KW appears to have gotten good value overall.

by bhoov on Dec 24, 2006 11:39 AM CST reply actions

if charlotte is home run friendly

than the home run argument seems dubious

bmac had a 0.84 hr9 rate in the minors
danks has a 1.01 hr9 rate in the minors...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 12:38 PM CST up reply actions

Okay...

Explaining this again:

The leagues that Danks has pitched in have been collectively much harder than the leagues that McCarthy pitched in. Also note that Danks was a full year younger when he reached AAA than McCarthy was.

Expanding on that a bit more, as it has already been mentioned, the PCL is brutal for pitchers. For him to dominate the way he did in his last six starts is extremely impressive.

BTW, I just want to make it clear that I'm not trying to 'sell' anyone on the trade. I've been going back and forth the past 36 hours about whether or not I like it. I'm still not sure how I like it. The only thing I've come up with is the most obvious, being: Thumbs up for 2008 and beyond, but for 2007? I'm sorry Kenny, but there's not a chance in hell that Floyd or Haeger pitch better than McCarthy does this year.

And there's always the TINSTAAPP; in my mind, Danks still has to pitch well in Charlotte for at least a couple months before he's ready for Chicago. A lot can happen in that timespan. McCarthy, OTOH, has proven that he can pitch well as a starter (although how well over the course of 35 starts is yet to be determined).

I dunno... I'm looking forward to Cheat coming out of hibernation and posting his thoughts on the trade.

by CWSKeith on Dec 24, 2006 4:11 PM CST up reply actions

yes, I'm curious to see what cheat has to say

I didn't knew at first what TINSTAAPP meant

google says 'there is no such thing as a pitching prospect'

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 4:43 PM CST up reply actions

Would like more in-depth

numbers on B-Mac as a starter, not aggegated numbers. I thought he performed much more effectively as a starter rather than a long-relief, "keep it close" guy. Didn't he get racked up in a couple relief appearances in '06 which may have skewed his HR numbers? And how many dingers at the Cell vs. on the road?

Still would like some TODAY issues addressed, not all toward '08. Still, others have postulated (and I agree) that KW's not done.

by winningugly on Dec 24, 2006 11:42 AM CST reply actions

here you go

this espn page should answer your question.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=7484&type=pitching3&three=1

by larry on Dec 24, 2006 11:45 AM CST up reply actions

this seems to count the initial bmac starts

the ones before he changed his delivery

anyway we can check his starting stats after the change?

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 12:47 PM CST up reply actions

hmmm, the sample size gets too small

Baseball Musings Day By Day Pitching Database

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 12:51 PM CST up reply actions

yes, 1.69 ERA but it's only 5 starts

link

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 1:20 PM CST up reply actions

Thank you.

So is ERA is slightly better as a starter but still gopher-prone.

by winningugly on Dec 25, 2006 8:18 AM CST up reply actions

Kenny Williams knows what he is doing

I don't think he is done dealing yet. Maybe he's trying to package a deal with these prospects for something bigger with the likes of a Crawford or a Baldelli . I would be surprised if nothing else happens.

by ckimcircles on Dec 24, 2006 11:55 AM CST reply actions

I'm starting to question this (that he knows what

he's doing) I don't see teams trading players like bmac

btw, I can't see any player that KW has acquired that would look more attractive to tampa than bmac would...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 12:56 PM CST up reply actions

Preston Wilson...

Although he's received interested from an undisclosed American League team, free agent Preston Wilson would like to remain with the Cardinals.
It doesn't appear as though there's any interest in Wilson as a starting outfielder. Should he rejoin the Cardinals, he could platoon with the left-handed-hitting Chris Duncan in left field.

Source: St. Louis Post-Dispatch

Anyone think that the A.L. team was us?

by SSH2005 on Dec 24, 2006 11:59 AM CST reply actions

Preston Wilson

Strikes out all the time.

Not a match for the white sox.

by LeftyPride on Dec 24, 2006 12:23 PM CST reply actions

He would be a good fit with the Sox...

Check out Wilson's stats versus lefties. He could platoon with Podsednik in LF and also play some CF. Also, he would be fairly cheap.

by SSH2005 on Dec 24, 2006 12:38 PM CST up reply actions

cowley

[cowley]

If he comes quickly [Danks], he could make the expected departure of Buehrle -- a free agent after next season -- much easier for the Sox.

expected? can't we hold on to anyone...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 1:15 PM CST reply actions

we can't hold on to everyone

assuming he rebounds, he's going to get near zito-esque money. he's a very good pitcher but i don't see how we can compete with some of these teams who have deep pockets. and i don't see how we can compete with the cardinals, either.

by larry on Dec 24, 2006 1:37 PM CST up reply actions

why not?

I don't understand why the Sox can't spend money, especially for a player that has been one of the best pitchers in chicago for the last five years with exception to last year. I understand your point, but it's frustrating to hear that kind of talk from Sox fans let alone from KW. Just frustrated as to why we have to be frugal when the Sox have money.

by ckimcircles on Dec 24, 2006 10:37 PM CST up reply actions

yes, we can't hold on everyone

from that payroll post cheat made a few dsys ago I say we hold on to: buehrle if he rebounds, contreras, crede, garland, AJ and uribe

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 2:33 PM CST reply actions

unfortunately

we don't have control over all those players. they have to want to sign for us. wouldn't you want to play for your hometown team? i don't blame MB - or any other player - for wanting to do so.

by larry on Dec 24, 2006 2:50 PM CST up reply actions

of course they have to sign with us

I just want us to make an honest effort to keep them and not let them walk

especially the pitchers...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 24, 2006 4:47 PM CST up reply actions

Why Kenny is trading for young power arms...

The Brewers reached agreement today with free agent right-hander Jeff Suppan on a four-year deal with a club option worth $42 million.

If Jeff freaking Suppan is getting over $10 million a year, what the hell is Buehrle going to get? I don't blame Kenny for trying to acquire as many young starters as he can, although I can understand questioning the McCarthy trade (even though I like it).

by SSH2005 on Dec 24, 2006 3:37 PM CST reply actions