Rumor: Kenny wanted Pence for Garland

by The Cheat on Dec 28, 2006 12:59 PM CST in White Sox Rumors

When the White Sox backed out of the Jon Garland deal because of concerns over Taylor Buchholz's health, they came back to Tim Purpura with a counter-offer. They'd still do the deal in its original form--Buchholz, Jason Hirsh and Willy Taveras for Garland--if Purpura would also throw Hunter Pence into the deal. He passed.

Pence and Hirsh would have been a great haul for Garland. I would have dropped Taveras and Buchholz from the deal to get Pence. I doubt Purpura would have agreed to that deal either, but at least the Sox would have gotten two impact players instead of an impact player and two fringy ones.

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Pence & Hirsh

I'd do that deal in a heartbeat, even now.

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 28, 2006 1:18 PM CST reply actions

So would the Astros

Considering Hirsh is on the Rockies now. That'd be a steal!

This makes me feel better than when it was just Buchholz and Taveras, with Hirsh only mentioned in the end. That never made any sense.

Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Dec 28, 2006 1:27 PM CST up reply actions

doh

yeah, silly me.

Anyone else giggle at Dick Justice?

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 28, 2006 1:30 PM CST up reply actions

I think

I would have to disagree..
We have 4 good starters... I think we need all 4 of em right now.

I havent looked at how good those young guys are but still..

ok maybe im wrong

by LeftyPride on Dec 28, 2006 1:27 PM CST reply actions

Yeah, it's hard to see moving any of the four

The Sox seem just a little short in that, on one hand, they now have four good veteran starters and a nice group of pitching prospects waiting in the wings, while, on the other hand, they need Buerhle this year, even if he becomes a FA at the end of the year, and don't have the extra pitching to trade to fill that big ugly hole in LF.

Hope KW has something up his sleeve to improve LF without losing much pitching, and to either sign Buehrle or get pitching, not pitching prospects, in return.

Canada's finest

by MarkD on Dec 28, 2006 1:36 PM CST reply actions

Guys

Kenny has said that he's done dealing starters. Relax. Houston doesn't have Hirsh anymore either.

This was pre-McCarthy deal.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 28, 2006 2:11 PM CST reply actions

IF the mets give you humber+pelfrey for vazquez

what do you do now?

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 28, 2006 2:18 PM CST up reply actions

Make the trade...

Pelfrey's ZIPS projection is probably pretty close Garland's. Sure, it would be worse factoring in Shea versus the Cell. But that offer is too good to pass up. And it won't matter because the Mets will simply put Pelfrey in the rotation before trdiang him for a starter.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 28, 2006 9:26 PM CST up reply actions

yes

you are right, mets shouldn't even consider trading pelfrey
his numbers are very good

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 29, 2006 10:35 AM CST up reply actions

New to site... Palehose08... rockin' the retro

Alright...

Been reading this site for about a year now...

You have been my 'secret inside knowledge' for all my boyz... thanks for letting me rip you off.

I finally decided to log on and join in.

First off, Cheat... you are THE man - great work here and your opinions are pretty right on.

Secondly, so you know where I'm coming from, I love the Oz and think he has given this team identity that it sorely lacked since the Tony L. days. I rock the retro gear with pride!

Third, big fan of what KW is doing - gotta love winning 90 games and it being a dissapointment on many levels. The bar has been raised!

Lastly, on the recent KW revamp. I'm gonna miss Sweaty Freddy - he was "family," in a sense, and I backed him all last year. But, KW had to make the move.

RE: BMac... this is tough, but at the end of the day, they felt they couldn't go into battle with him. Nice guy... I'm sure; Decent starter... probably; But as far as I'm concerned, KW and crew wanted him gone - I want him gone. They felt he wasn't the guy... He's not the guy. I'm trusting managment on this one. I've been there for every playoff game and was there when we rolled out the banners on opening day. So, BMac, don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out the door.

P.S. - love the Citron signing... need guys like this on your team!

by P-Hose08 on Dec 28, 2006 2:48 PM CST reply actions

Welcome Palehose

You a season ticket holder?

by Tdogg on Dec 28, 2006 9:20 PM CST up reply actions

Craig Wilson

is he a FA?
What about him as a left fielder?

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 28, 2006 3:03 PM CST reply actions

Crede

Still hasnt been signed..

Him and a prospect for Ervin Santana and Chone Figgins?
Figgins has the ability to play 3rd base, (he's not the greatest fielder, but you have your leadoff man) or he can play center, and Josh Fields can play 3rd.

I'm not saying this would be the smartest deal, but if Kenny is going to unload Crede.. I'd love to see Santana in a sox uniform.

Just a thought.

What do you think?

by LeftyPride on Dec 28, 2006 3:23 PM CST reply actions

Sure

"Him and a prospect for Ervin Santana and Chone Figgins?"

As long as the prospect's name isn't Gonzalez, Danks, Fields (only because we would need a 3B-man) or Sweeney, I do that deal. Crede's only here two more years.

The Angels don't, though.

by BridgeportJoe on Dec 28, 2006 3:36 PM CST up reply actions

They could

Platoon at 3rd....
Figgins is a switch-hitter. I was unable to see what side he hits better from though.

by LeftyPride on Dec 28, 2006 3:25 PM CST reply actions

Too bad...

that Kenny didn't wait for Zito to sign. I like Danks and Masset but I would much rather have traded Vazquez to the Mets for Milledge and Humber than McCarthy to the Rangers for Danks and Masset.

by SSH2005 on Dec 28, 2006 3:55 PM CST reply actions

so would I

so would I...

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 28, 2006 4:25 PM CST up reply actions

not sure minaya would have done that deal

by larry on Dec 28, 2006 4:40 PM CST up reply actions

He

probably wouldn't have. Seeing how KW and Omar are friends, they probably are approaching pitching the same way--get and keep the young arms so you don't have to pay Zito type dollars.

Omar has some good young, impact arms already in Pelfrey and Humber. Why trade those away?

by cfisk72 on Dec 28, 2006 7:11 PM CST up reply actions

it's a tough balancing act

their rotation looks pretty thin, at least until pedro comes back. but, if you look to their future, glavine, el duque, and pedro all figure to be gone real soon.

i think that if the mets do trade, it will be for one of oakland's young arms - still cheap for a while but definitely can go right into the rotation next year. not sure how oakland feels about that, of course. i can't see the mets going after javy at the price KW would want.

by larry on Dec 28, 2006 7:37 PM CST up reply actions

It seems strange that Beane

hasn't gotten into the "trade vets for young guys" with it being such a seller's market. But I'm sure he will before Spring

by cfisk72 on Dec 28, 2006 8:38 PM CST up reply actions

well

they don't really have all that many vets to move. with haren, harden, and throw in blanton they've got the makings of a pretty young and pretty good staff already. i'm sure beane will be picking up some scraps, at the very least, before april.

by larry on Dec 28, 2006 8:46 PM CST up reply actions

Dye?

How many people think we will lockup Jermaine after this year? I know we have Fields, Sweeney, Owens, but you need better production out of your outfield especially with Pods and BA making up the rest of it! As much as I love JD, trading him makes more sense then trading Crede just for the fact that we can control Crede one more year, at a tougher position to fill.

I know next years outfield market is great, but still can we afford to pay him, especially when we have Crede's in 08 and a hole in the rotation.

by tubesox on Dec 28, 2006 9:25 PM CST reply actions

Dye is gone after 2007

The Sox have made it pretty clear they won't be signing free agents to big deals. And Dye isn't young, so letting him go might not be a bad decision. Plus Jermaine already expressed ineterst in playing for Texas and Ron Washington, supposedly.

Honestly, given how tough the Central and NYY and BOS look, I think you could make a case the Sox should trade Dye, Crede and Buehrle and punt on 2007. If they won't sign free agents, they'll need cheap young players to be good in 2008 and beyond. And the only way to get cheap talent is in trade, since it's not in the Sox minor league system.

I'd hate to see a firesale, and I guess I wouldn't do it if I were the GM. But at this point, given the Sox apparent budget constraints, it might be wise.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 28, 2006 9:35 PM CST up reply actions

if by budget constraints

you mean that we can't compete with the bosox and yankees, well, we should probably say fuck it every year. but money sure hasn't brought those clubs much ultimate success - that's just the way the playoffs in baseball go.

i'm probably an optimist, but i'm not afraid of the central. sure, it was the toughest in baseball but that's partly because of us. i think minnesota is going to suffer without liriano and radke. the guys they have making up the rotation after santana are sketchy at best. of course, the tigers have the best rotation in baseball. but, then, i heard that about another team last year. anyway, if you're scared of the tigers, they have a rotation (and pitching prospects) to be around for a long time so there's no need to put off the battle.

as for dye, he gone. the guy deserves to get paid by somebody - just not us. he'll be too old for us to spend the money on a guy who probably will be easing into a DH role pretty soon. we've already got a DH and one in waiting signed to long deals. i imagine the plan would be to sign a guy to a short contract and wait for cunningham to be ready in '09.

by larry on Dec 28, 2006 9:53 PM CST up reply actions

we've already got a DH and one in waiting

I agree with this...why didn't we didn'trade Thome, and keep Gload at first with Paulie as DH?

G-load is a solid player all around and is coming into his prime at 30 - and KC is going to join the mix of good clubs this year.

We've always had a tough time with them regardless, and now G-load will hit well against us with them.

And Thome....well...he disappeared last season when we needed him the most and took the rest of the sluggers down with him.
Think about it - he's always been in the playoffs but never been able to LIFT his team to a WS.
And this guy gets 15 mil???

by The Truth has left the building on Dec 29, 2006 11:08 AM CST up reply actions

Another real sox fan..

How's everyone? New poster here coming out of his dark corner.

Great site here. Love the insight, the inside info and statistical analysis here. Certainly appreciated
cheat. I've been a sox fan as long as I can remember and Im from the Southside.

Anyways, enough of that.

I would agree with the gentleman above saying that we should've put gload there at first to "platoon" with konerko for first and DH. That would've also cut costs (although i dont quite think that's what the sox want to do-I believe they just have a line they won't cross and kenny loves to look at the alternative. It's chess ladies and gentlemen)..

The reason i WOULD'VE done that is because gload is younger. Has proven he could flat out hit at almost every level. Sure there wouldve been less power, if you will, with less homers and a drastic hit on slugging %, but they would've made that up with situational hitting and having another guy that could score from second on a single.

Simply put, the sox did fine with the long ball when they had Everette, Dye, and konerko in the middle of the lineup. I think people forget the sox won in 2005 because of versatility and clutch hits on the offensive end, not just gaudy numbers.

Now that we've traded gload away. I still think unloading thome (if someone would take him like the angels who need someone to protect Guerrero in the lineup for example) would be another idea I wouldn't exactly be opposed to.

I'd certainly trade thome before I'd trade crede for obvious reasons.

I could see the sox getting a decent corner outfielder like figgins and another arm from the angels.

Mariners could be looking for more power as well.. WHat about adrian beltre? ( he's decent with the glove and had exactly one good offensive year-same as crede) Then you flip crede off to trade for an outfielder
(crede plus a pitching prospect for rios in toronto)

DH you can fill easily, so that's not even an issue. I'd TRY and sign dye to a good extention. If he
rejects either trade him or ride the wave and offer arbitration. Sox could still use that money
(the money you offered dye) to sign a guy like ichiro (i know long shot) or whatever place of need. Retain cheaper parts that actually holds good value like re-signing iguchi, cintron, mack while bringing in the new like sweeney, and anderson... It's definitely playing with fire, but
you'll have to do something eventually.

Just throwing some ideas out there.
Either way it allows the sox to get out of tight spaces with crede and dye's situation. Allow's the sox to get younger and gain flexibility by trading thome. They can use the chips to cover most bases. I always thought the sox were in position for a dynasty if they played thier cards right. (dynasty by chi-town standards is just getting to the playoffs and being competitive)

And for the record, I like the offseason so far. Not what I thought would happen, but interesting none the less. Thanks for letting me rant. That's for the last 6 months of not posting anything.

easy,
DJ E.K.

It's all about the SOX baby! www.myspace.com/eternalkonflict

by Eternalkonflict on Dec 29, 2006 12:20 PM CST up reply actions

huh?

not very realistic. Paulie is solid at 1st with the glove and Gload hasn't been anything but a bench jockey for his entire MLB career. As for Thome--while he didn't have a good 2nd half, that's because he didn't get enough time off, playing his first full season in a couple...and tell JD that he took the rest of the sluggers down with him--no way, JD tore it up in the 2nd half, and it's not like Paulie wasn't putting up solid numbers as well. This team needs to move Pods, that's it--give Anderson/Sweeney a shot at either LF or CF, and bring in a quality major leaguer to lead off and play the other outfield position. If the Sox do that they'll be fine, IMO...

....STRETCH!

by suicidesqueeze on Dec 29, 2006 3:05 PM CST up reply actions

You let Dye walk after '07

He should give us something like his post-April '05 line this year, which is great for us, but bad for whoever gives him his next long-term deal. They'll (presumably) be paying for 3-straight very good RF seasons, but are only likely to get good-to-average-to-broken-down over the life of the ensuing contract.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 29, 2006 2:06 PM CST up reply actions

misunderstand

I'd trade Dye, but we still are one of the top 5 teams in the majors with him, and we can figure thing out if he leads after 2007. The only deal that works for me is with 2007 and the future both in mind. The Pale Hose are a World Series contender in 2007!

I was just bringing up this discussion because everyone is looking to sell Crede and Buhrle because of pending free agency, and I'd say Dye's value will never be any higher, especially at 7 million.

No firesale is happening by any means, especially with KW at the helm.

by tubesox on Dec 28, 2006 10:12 PM CST reply actions

I see the sox

keeping Dye all of 2007 [unless by some huge drop off the sox are out of the race by the trade deadline--which I don't see happening] and offering him arb. Jermaine will become a FA, and the sox will get draft picks for him.

Trading him in 2007 wouldn't help the sox win. His numbers aren't easily replaceable by anyone internally.

Neither are Crede's. Fields isn't likely to post a .250 avg. let alone Joe's .280 and his SLG numbers. Not to mention Joe's superior defense.

If Joe is traded, it should be after next yr. when Josh is that much more ready to step in and replace Joe.

by cfisk72 on Dec 29, 2006 6:44 AM CST up reply actions

mets

John Delcos:

The Mets could re-open trade talks with Oakland for one of the Athletics' trio of Dan Haren, Joe Blanton and Rich Harden. With the Chicago White Sox trading Garcia at the winter meetings and Brandon McCarthy last weekend to Texas, Javier Vazquez is no longer available. Talks during the winter meetings fell through because of Oakland's demands of Lastings Milledge, Aaron Heilman and Phil Humber, and the Athletics aren't about to back off considering how the market has thinned.

so beane wants milledge+heilman+humber
do you think he gets it?

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 29, 2006 10:10 AM CST reply actions

not a chance

by larry on Dec 29, 2006 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

twinkies

[Derrick Goold]:

The Minnesota Twins are the apparent leaders to sign righthanded pitcher Sidney Ponson, signed by the Cardinals last season and then released to re-sign with the Yankees.

didn't we spank fatty sometime in '05?

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 29, 2006 10:17 AM CST reply actions

yankee$

[BILL MADDEN and ANTHONY McCARRON]:

While the Yankees have been pursuing pitchers in their talks with the D-Backs, Padres and other West Coast teams, it's believed they have made progress in their plans for the spare parts they need at first base and utility infielder. A source said the Yankees are zeroing in on Doug Mientkiewicz to play first while Jason Giambi is the designated hitter, even though Mientkiewicz is a lefthanded batter. Also, the source said, Mark Loretta may be the Yankees' first choice to be a utility infielder. Loretta had hoped to find a job as a regular second baseman, but hasn't.

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Dec 29, 2006 10:29 AM CST reply actions

Bruce Levine reporting that the...

White Sox have interest in Rocco Baldelli. Tampa Bay would probably be interested in some of our young arms.

by SSH2005 on Dec 29, 2006 11:29 AM CST reply actions

Apparently...

Levine said that the Devil Rays would want Brian Anderson and two quality pitching prospects. I'm not sure why the Devil Rays would want Anderson when they are already stacked with outfielders, unless they trade another outfielder (or Anderson) for even more young pitching.

by SSH2005 on Dec 29, 2006 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

Actually, they could use BA

I remember reading a post by a D-Rays fan that they might want another OF. They have Dukes and Upton, but both those guys have question marks ("attitude" for Dukes and Upton hasn't been an OF). And I don't think Dukes can play CF. So I could see them being interested in Anderson so they have something to fall back on.

If the Sox could send BA, Masset/Floyd, and Broadway for Baldelli I think that would be an OK trade. I wouldn't want to see Danks go.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 29, 2006 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

man

that's a pretty hefty haul for baldelli. not sure i'd be willing to part with that much - especially considering it still leaves us with a problem in LF. i don't think the difference in production from BA to baldelli is worth throwing in a couple pitchers, as well. maybe if they wanted sweeney instead...not sure about that either. i just think baldelli, BA, and dye in the outfield in 07 looks a heck of a lot better than baldelli, pods, and dye (or having to make yet another move to replace pods).

by larry on Dec 29, 2006 12:33 PM CST up reply actions

Trading pitching prospects...

I specifically picked the pitching prospects I thought were most expendable. I just don't see Floyd putting things together; his minor league numbers weren't even good. Masset is a reliever with a very mediocre history as well (I know, the Sox "scout the player not the stats"...). I'd be most reticent to give up Broadway, but scouts seem to not think much of his stuff. I'd rather keep BA as well, but it seems clear that Ozzie is not going to play him. There's no way I would trade Sweeney instead of BA -- Sweeney looked like he could actually hit major league pitching.

Maybe the Sox could trade Pods to the Cubs for Murton (whom they seem to not think much of). Heck , Jones would even be OK...

by hitlesswonder on Dec 29, 2006 1:06 PM CST up reply actions

interesting

i think the opposite: BA will be the better player. at the very least, i don't see much distinguishing the two of them. their ceiling seems pretty similar. i'm curious as to what gave you the impression sweeney will hit major league pitching. not that it's any knock on him - he's still very young - but i can't recall anything that gave me that impression.

and i think that whole thing with ozzie is overblown. he was getting more ABs toward the end of the season than at the beginning. and, whether it was cause or effect, he was hitting better, too. he'll be a much more useful player this year(.260ish, .330ish, more homers) whether he's in center or left.

by larry on Dec 29, 2006 1:26 PM CST up reply actions

K rate and age...

Sweeney matched BA's numbers in AAA at age 21 (BA was 23 when he was there). And BA strikes out twice as much. I also thought, just watching them hit, that Sweeney's swing looked much smoother. But, I really have no idea if having a "smoother" looking swing means anything at all -- I'll be the first to admit I have limited baseball knowledge. Still the age/k thing is I think an indicator that Sweeney has a better shot at a productive major league career.

I'm really not down on Anderson. In my book, a bad rookie season is no reason to decide BA is trash. Even if the Sox don't want him to play CF on the big club, they should let him rake in Charlotte to jack up his value and serve as injury insurance. But I think Baldelli is a pretty decent player, and if adding Anderson means not giving up Danks or Gonzalez then I'd be OK with moving him.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 29, 2006 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

i thought you saw something when he was here

his minor league numbers are quite nice, of course.

i think the real difference between them is that sweeney will hit for a higher average and BA will hit for more power. not sure if that's a material difference, though. i also think BA's defense is better - but sweeney may catch up in that category.

bottom line, for me, BA is more valuable right now to the '07 club than sweeney.

by larry on Dec 29, 2006 2:17 PM CST up reply actions

not to mention

As we have seen, Kenny's deals get done when we least expect it and not when closeness or interest is reported on the radio.

Still I would really like to get Rocco.

by Tdogg on Dec 29, 2006 11:47 AM CST reply actions

Tell me, again...

Why we're trying to improve in CF, not in LF? Why we're talking about trading a second year player (I know that 2nd-year players never improve or anything crazy like that, but stick with me) rather than the 30 year old who, without speed, would have a tough time finding playing time for the Joliet Jackhammers?

This makes no sense... If you're going to trade for Baldelli, then do it so he can leadoff and be your everyday leftfielder.

I dunno... now that we've built up this big collection of, for the most part, high ceiling arms, I want to keep a vast majority of them because, in all probability, not all of them will pan out. I want a large quantity so that, even if half of our pitching 'spects don't pan out, we'll still have a good haul that did make it to the majors.

by CWSKeith on Dec 29, 2006 2:45 PM CST reply actions

I'd love to ditch Pods

At least one of CF and LF should be upgraded -- they just can't have 2 guys well below the .800 OPS mark in the OF. And securing a major league OF for when Dye leaves would nice, too.

I'd much rather the Sox replace Pods. I was just saying that to get Baldelli I'd consider trading Anderson.

I agree about the pitching. I don't want to see the Sox trade Danks at all. And Gio is pretty close behind. I'm much less impressed with Masset and Floyd, just from their numbers.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 29, 2006 2:57 PM CST up reply actions

I agree

It it is more desirable and more important to replace Pods. Im just concerned Pods has naked pictures of Ozzie's wife because for the life of me I cant understand why Pods is still on this team. If he must stay then BA must go.

by Tdogg on Dec 29, 2006 4:53 PM CST up reply actions