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Phreddy Garcia is a Phil

By now you've heard the Sox have made the first of their off-season moves, swapping Freddy Garcia for Former big deal first rounder, Gavin Floyd, and former White Sox farmhand, Gio Gonzalez. My first reaction to the deal is, given the current price of free agent pitching, Kenny could have, nay, should have gotten a better return. It's not a terrible deal, but since I can't see how it immediately improves the '07 team, I'm not exactly excited.

The first step in evaluating this trade has to be assessing Freddy's value to the '07 Sox. ZiPS projected him to give the Sox 212 innings with an ERA of 4.46. But ZiPS has no idea that Freddy was struggling to break 90 on the gun all season. Of course, it also has no idea that Garcia was dominating in his last 5 starts thanks to the (re)emergence of a splitter.

Which pitcher are the Sox giving up? Probably a little of both. He might beat the 4.46 ERA projection with the Phils thanks to the change in leagues and move from USCF to CBP, which features a smaller HR park effect, though it's still a launching pad. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Freddy suddenly washed out. He looked dead in the water for the first 5 months of '06. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if he regains his old form and makes Kenny look like a fool for giving up on him.

Garcia's place in the rotation will now be filled by Brandon McCarthy. Though officially, the Sox say Floyd and McCarthy will compete for a rotation spot, I think we all are in agreement about who the winner of that competition will be. ZiPS projects McCarthy to give the Sox 142 innings of 4.69 ERA. The innings are limited because of his time in the bullpen last year, but ZiPS is not a playing time indicator. Extrapolated to 200 innings, McCarthy's projected 4.69 ERA is about 5 runs worse than Garcia's 4.46. 5 runs is about half a win, almost negligible, but not quite.

Basically, the deal upgrades the Sox rotation if you think McCarthy is likely to meet or exceed his projection while Garcia and his 87MPH heat fail to meet his. If your of the opinion that McCarthy can't match Garcia's production, there's no way I can spin this deal for you with the Sox on the winning side of the ledger in '07.

So that takes care of the 1-year of Garcia, but if the Sox held onto Garcia they could have gained 2 picks as he left for free agency. Those picks would be between 16 and 50 of the 2008 draft. ETA on any prospect picked up with those picks would be 2010 at the earliest. And that would be with a highly acclaimed college player who advanced quickly. Instead the Sox decided to take two arms formerly drafted in the first and supplemental rounds who are considerably closer to the majors.

Gio = John Danks minus three inches -- At this time last year, Gio was one of the brightest young pitching prospects in baseball. Most were waiting until they saw him succeed in AA before they placed him in the top tier, as that's a level that where many a diminutive lefty stalls. Gonzalez didn't quite stall, but he didn't blow away the competition like he did in A-ball either. He struggled with control and the longball as the season wore on, and drew concerns about whether he was fully healthy.

The HR rate may have been a bit of fluke, but we'll have to wait and see. Gio allowed a HR on 14.3% of his flyballs against a league average of 8.6% HR/FB. He also walked a batter every other inning, which says to me that he had some mechanical flaw develop once he left the tutelage of Mr. Perdew in Winston-Salem where he posted the best BB/9 of his minor league career.

Like the sub-heading says, Gio is very comparable to the pitching prospect we were after from Texas, John Danks. The main difference is their frame. Danks is 6'2" while Gio is 5'11". That frame difference is what makes many scouts favor Danks despite Gio's individual pitches being rated better. Gio can touch 93 with his fastball, though he sits in the low 90's. His best pitch is probably his curveball, and when he left the Sox organization his change could be described as average but developing.

Floyd is the Joe Borchard of pitching prospects -- Floyd was the 4th overall pick in the 2001 draft, receiving a huge signing bonus of $4.2M to sign with the Phils. He then posted good, but not elite, numbers on a quick accent to AAA, where he has stalled for the last 3 years. He's spent some time in the bigs during that stretch as well, which probably has hurt his development.

He had developed from golden boy to persona non grata in Philly, where they might even be less patient than NY with young talent. His scouting report makes him sound like a case for the pitching doctor, Don Cooper. He's lost some velocity in recent years, but still sits in the low 90's and features a big curveball. Philly scouts compared him to both Jon Garland and Chris Carpenter, neither of whom did anything notable at the big league level prior to their 25th birthday. Floyd turns 24 in January, so there's still some hope. If he doesn't succeed by April of '08 though, you'll likely never hear of him again.

While the official word on Floyd is that he'll be competing for a rotation spot, I feel he has a better chance of making the ass end of the Sox bullpen in '06, taking over McCarthy's role of disappointing young starter out of the pen.

Denouement -- With the current price for pitching being what it is, I think we're going to be see at least one trade like this each year for the foreseeable future. Williams never wants to find himself in the same position the Sox found themselves in '03-'04 without a 5th starter. He's going to compile as many young arms close to the majors as he can while still maintaining 5 major-league tested arms in the rotation. This is pretty much the same strategy Billy Beane used in Oakland as the big three neared free agency.

The Sox now have five 23-year-old or younger starters who figure to start at AAA or higher in McCarthy, Floyd, Haeger, Broadway, and Gonzalez; plus a couple of 21 & 22-year-olds who figure to be at AA next year in Harrell and McCulloch. Obviously, not all of these arms will turn into viable rotation candidates. That's part of the reason you should see at least 2 pitching prospects coming back in the eventual deal next year for Garland or Vazquez. The Sox are trying to build a pipeline of pitching talent that can withstand the usual attrition and flame outs that are to be expected in prospect development. The best way to accomplish this, while simultaneously limiting risk as much as possible, is to trade your starters with 1-year remaining before free agency for multiple arms at AA and above.

It's hard to portray this move as much more than a lateral move with potential in '07, but it helps secure the future of franchise as the current rotation ages and eventually leaves. Not an outright fleecing like we had been hoping for, but certainly not terrible enough to get all bent out of shape about.

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It's 2:45 A.M.
and is it sad that I've actually stayed up awaiting your post and thoughts on the trade?  I guess that's a compliment to what you've built up here.

I was actually one of the few non-freak out ones at the time of the trade going down, which was surprising.  I dunno why...  I guess I'm excited to have a couple of high-upside arms in our system now.  

But I'm surprised you didn't comment on the $10 million dollars saved from the deal.  We're at what, ~$90 million now?  With a couple of guys (Crede being the main one) still left to ink to contracts?  You figure once we get those guys signed, we'll be in the mid-to-upper 90s, but coming off of a high attendance season, one would think that the payroll had a chance to be anywhere from $105-110 million.  At this point, where does it go?  A guy that quite obviously makes a heckuva lot of sense at this point is Bonds, but both Reinsdorf and Williams have said in the past day that #25 ain't comin' here.  

Can we also get some clarification has to whether or not Floyd has options left?  Because if he doesn't, I think our bullpen is set, with Jenks/MacDougal/Thorton as the late guys, and Aardsma/Floyd/Haeger-Perez-Booooone as the 'early' guys.

by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 2:52 AM CST   0 recs

Floyd has at least one option remaining
He wasn't put on the major league roster until September of '04, so he didn't burn one that year. So he only used 2 options.

Money? I haven't crunched the numbers. I honestly believe what KW is telling me, that the Sox aren't really under any financial constraints. He's intent to build the club from the ground up in the current market. I'll be disappointed if they open the season with Pods in LF, but not because I think they're being cheap. Just because it's really obvious that there are plenty of upgrades out there that you wouldn't have to break the bank for. I'd be upset that they couldn't recognize Pods' lack of baseball talent.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 7, 2006 3:03 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

About Pods
Remember all those great quotes from KW and Wilder last winter about the value the org places on advanced metrics and how the Thome trade was based in part upon SABER projections?

If those quotes are worth anything then there is no way the Sox believe Pods is useful.

I hope they realize this.

by madvillian on Dec 7, 2006 3:08 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Bullpen
It's nice that the Bullpen has been addresed.  I'm of the thinking that the SP will be somewhere between 2005 and 2006 and the bullpen the same.

The defense should be improved by the removal of Mac from CF.

I'm still waiting on a big trade that gets rid of Pods and nets a legit LF.

If LF gets upgraded signifantly I think this offseason can still turn out very good.

by madvillian on Dec 7, 2006 3:03 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Only reason
I don't necessarily like the trade is because it is indeed a lateral move at best for 07. I thought KW was going to use one of the starting pitchers to acquire some sort of immediate help for this year, and assuming Gio nor Floyd are really that, I don't like it as much. The window is open now...not necessarily in 2009. BTW, that Rogers article was a bit disturbing. I understand the logic, but some of what was in there was a bit over the top.

I know you love your prospects, Keith, so i never thought you'd be unhappy with this deal ;)

by illinikrush on Dec 7, 2006 3:08 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hey, a Billy Beane comparison!
And that can only reflect favorably upon KW.  I think we really have to assume at this point that KW, like most of us, had pencilled in Garcia as the odd man out in the rotation.  I agree completely with that conclusion and praise KW for not parting with Buehrle and Vasquez, who both have much more value.

It seems that the trading market for SP hasn't blown up in proportion to the FA market for SP, which makes some sense.  Teams are more willing to overpay with money, rather than give up talent.  With revenues booming this seems like a sound strategy.

It's a lateral move for 2007 according to the ZiPs, and I'm not going to discount the projections.  It will be interesting to see the percentile breakdowns by PECOTA for McCarthy.  I wonder what his chances of a breakout are.

Gio's frame doesn't really bother me, it's his stalled periphereals that do.  As for Floyd, he seems like the prototypical Sox reclamation project: hard thrower, high cieling, conrol problems and a head case to boot.

If he turns into another Thortnon I'll send KW a very nice X-mas card next year.  I'll send Coop one too.

All in all it's a "meh" trade for me.  At least KW got potentially useful players out of deal, and not useless veterans like some of use feared.

I'm listening to WFAN here in NYC late night and a Phillies fan just called and said that because they didn't give up Rowand it's a great move by the Phillies.

I'm glad that Rowand is seemingly overvalued by every fanbase, and not just ours.

by madvillian on Dec 7, 2006 3:00 AM CST   0 recs

Buehrle extension soon
The other day KW said he was working on an extension for one of the SP's, and logic said it was Buehrle/Garcia.  Now with Garcia out of the picture, we can only assume that an extension is coming soon for Mark.

For the Garcia trade, I would say it is within the parameters of a fair deal.  Everyone just assumed the Sox could get more with the current free agent market. Especially with Floyd seeming to be slightly out of favor in Philly.

I was hoping for a mid-high end catching prospect to be included in the package.

by RME JICO on Dec 7, 2006 4:27 AM CST   0 recs

Let's reserve judgment....
until we see what happens with Floyd/Gonzalez in the next few days.  It would appear the Sox now have more chips from which to deal for a say, Baldelli if this is they are after.  The young pitching depth is a real plus and freeing 9 mil in salary is nothing to be ashamed of.  

by stanchar on Dec 7, 2006 6:42 AM CST   0 recs

Levine reporting Sox close to another deal?
ESPN just ran a teaser that Levine says the Sox are close to another deal. Details to follow I guess on the 9 show. Anyone heard anything or have any guesses?

by Tdogg on Dec 7, 2006 8:23 AM CST   0 recs

I thought I saw talk...
that even though this trade went down, by no means are the Vazquez-to-the-Mets rumors done.  But that trade would have to (somehow) keep us equally competitive for 2007 along with helping us for the future.  Seeing that Pelfrey is an untouchable, I'd imagine Humber would have to be part of the deal.  Heilman too.

I'm confused as to what the next move will be.  Hopefully it's something simple like picking up Toby Hall (hell, the Molina brother that just got released would be better than bringing back Sandy), but at this point anything can happen.

by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 9:07 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

from fox sports
One day after sending right-hander Freddy Garcia to the Phillies, the White Sox were discussing sending right-hander Jon Garland to the Astros for center fielder Willy Taveras and right-handed pitching prospects Taylor Buchholz and Jason Hirsh, FOXSports.com has learned.

by Option27 on Dec 7, 2006 12:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Complete rotation overhaul
Rogers

apologies for printing the printable view on previous post

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 7, 2006 8:42 AM CST   0 recs

Rule V Results
Jay Marshall was taken by the A's.  The Cubs took Josh Hamilton of all people, but the rumor is he'll be traded on to the Reds.

Major League Phase

First Round
Team: Player, Pos., Previous Org.

  1. Devil Rays: Ryan Goleski, of, Indians (to be traded to Oakland)
  2. Royals: Joakim Soria, rhp, Padres
  3. Cubs: Josh Hamilton, of, Devil Rays
  4. Pirates: Sean White, rhp, Pirates
  5. Orioles: Alfredo Simon, rhp, Rangers
  6. Nationals: Jesus Flores, c, Mets
  7. Brewers: Edward Campusano, lhp, Cubs
  8. Reds: Jared Burton, rhp, Athletics
  9. Astros: Lincoln Holdzcom, rhp, Cubs
  10. Phillies: Adam Donachie, c, Royals
  11. Red Sox: Nick DeBarr, rhp, Devil Rays
  12. Blue Jays: Jason Smith, ss, Cubs
  13. Padres: Kevin Cameron, rhp, Twins
  14. Athletics: Jay Marshall, lhp, White Sox
  15. Twins: Alejandro Machado, if, Nationals
  16. Yankees: Josh Phelps, 1b/dh, Orioles
Second Round:
  1. Nationals: Levale Speigner, rhp, Twins
  2. Phillies: Jim Ed Warden, rhp, Indians
Third Round:

1. Phillies: Ryan Budde, c, Angels

by Bull Pain on Dec 7, 2006 8:57 AM CST   0 recs

Does no one find schadenfreude
in Jim Hendry's chest pains?  And the last time I looked the start to the season is 4 months away!

Big smile.

by winningugly on Dec 7, 2006 9:04 AM CST   0 recs

McCarthy for Wells?
At BTF, someone posted that Rosenthal's speculation was that McCarthy will be traded to Toronto for Wells.

Ok, that's so tenuous that I probably shouldn't post it. But we've gone almost 30 minutes without a new rumor, so I thought it was time.

I wouldn't like that trade. And it flies in the face of what Williams said he was going to do in the Trib (trade away all the veteran pitching...grrr).

On the other hand, I think Ozzie clearly doesn't like McCarthy so it wouldn't surprise me to see his whipping boys BA and McCarthy moved in a trade.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 9:43 AM CST   0 recs

After the Garcia deal...
I'm not seeing how the Sox and Jays matchup, although I still think that Wells is the guy he really wants this winter.  I'd be extremely confused about a deal like that, if only because (like you said) it would go against everything that Kenny said last night and for the majority of the winter.

What makes sense for the Jays?  They need a power bat, so Fields would probably go north.  Maybe Ricciardi is enamored with Haeger?  

I'm not seeing a match at all, unless some mystery third team is involved.  

A deal that would've made sense yesterday would've been Buehrle or Garcia straight up for Wells, but that makes no sense at this point.

by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 9:48 AM CST   0 recs

Maybe Buehrle?
I think Buehrle could still be traded. If you believe Williams, extensions are off the table for everyone. KW seems to prefer live bodies to draft picks. And it's possible they've deluded themselves into thinking Floyd can be their 5th starter (I'd rather see Haeger, but whatever).

I still think St. Louis, who was after Schmidt is a likely trade partner. But a package of Buehrle and Anderson would be fair for Wells. I don't know if Toronto would agree though.

Anyway, I think another will be traded this offseason.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 9:56 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Garland to Houston?
Yes, according to this

Willy #^$%#! Taveras and Buchholz? I don't even know what to say...

by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 10:03 AM CST   0 recs

Christ
That would be an f'ing disaster.  

by Bull Pain on Dec 7, 2006 10:06 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

eww
that's gross.
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:18 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Jeez.
I see why Hendry is prone right now.

by winningugly on Dec 7, 2006 10:07 AM CST   0 recs

Garland
practically all the sites are reporting this deal is imminent........maybe it's rumors feeding on rumors

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 7, 2006 10:13 AM CST   0 recs

from reading the comments
i know i'm in the minority. but i like the deal. sure, as cheat notes, we'd all like a fleecing. but we ended up trading a guy with a year left on his contract (so nowhere near a guarantee the phillies have him past 07) who pretty much everyone on here agrees is on the backend of his career. last year, people were whining that we gave up gio. now apparently he sucks or something. i don't know much about the other guy but sickel seems to like him so that's good enough for me.

bottom line, we got gio - a very nice lefty who i think will end up being roughly as good as freddy in 3 years or so - and a plus arm for coop to work with. and, potentially, more chips with which to trade. the phillies get one year of a guy who i think will be, at best, slightly better than league average in the NL. seems like a decent deal to me.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 10:17 AM CST   0 recs

I almost like...
I like the idea of getting 2 young pitchers for Garcia. I think this is a better deal for the Sox than Rowand/Floyd would have been (in fact, I think it's telling that Rotoworld thought Rowand/Floyd was fair for both and Gio/FLoyd was a win for PHI).

I just don't like Floyd. To me, he looks like a guy who was a big name prospect because he was drafted high, not becuase he can pitch. For all his amazing stuff, his K numbers in the minors are terrible. An now he supposedly has lost velocity as well.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 10:24 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

well
i don't know anything about the guy. i defer to white sox scouts who have actually studied the guy and other (like sickel) who are better versed in the matter than i could ever be just by looking at stats and random reports. we'll see pretty soon whether this move pans out.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 10:27 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Garland
Bruce Levine is reporting that the trade is OFF.

Phew...

by shoelessjoshua on Dec 7, 2006 10:26 AM CST   0 recs

Dodging a second bullet with Garland
Remember when the trade for Erstad was all but done a few years ago?

by asinwreck on Dec 7, 2006 2:59 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

thoughts
I don't really have overwhelming opinions on this either way, but I am very happy to have Gio back on the farm.  I'm intrigued by Floyd, but far from excited.

Outside of Garcia's splitter, he showed me nothing last year.

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:27 AM CST   0 recs

Garland for Tavarez/Buckholz
This could rival the todd ritchie trade.... tavarez and anderson will have the same stats this year.... tavarez hit 278 with 20 sbs and 1 hr.... we can get that production out of scotty pods if we want it... and taylor buckholz is nothing worth noting  just another 24 yr old guy with a 4.60 era.... he might be worth 10 million a year to the cubs but to me this is a horseshit trade

by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 10:28 AM CST   0 recs

ammend...
i meant that tavarez had 30 sbs

by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 10:28 AM CST   0 recs

more on Floyd
from Sickels a month ago.

"Second, Gavin Floyd of the Philadelphia Phillies. He showed an effective curveball and a fastball with better movement than he's had in the regular season lately. I still think he can be an effective pitcher but he will probably need a change of scenery."

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:30 AM CST   0 recs

If that Garland trade goes down....
This will be the worst birthday ever.

by boyonthedock on Dec 7, 2006 10:32 AM CST   0 recs

Shaftr
I got your AIM the other night.  Where are you sitting?  I'll probably be at the BC at 8:30-9:00ish on Saturday morning.

by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 10:32 AM CST   0 recs

i'm not sure
I don't have the tickets, my friend does.  He said, "Tickets are at home. I think its like 418 or something.  row H????"
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 11:09 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hirsh added
according to Rosenthal, Hirsh might be added.  That changes things a bit, he could probably step in and start.
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:33 AM CST   0 recs

Just shot down
The Garland for Hirsch, Taveras, Bucholz trade apparently fell through.

KW has lost it.  Hirsch makes the deal more realistic, but why Garland, and why now?

by RME JICO on Dec 7, 2006 10:39 AM CST   0 recs

you know
these "rumors" (if you can even call them that) are simply purpura calling KW and saying "taveras and bucholz for garland?", KW laughing his ass off and saying no, purpura calling back "how about hirsch as well?" and KW laughing his ass off again.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 10:45 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hirsh
This is still a bad trade..... i don't like hirsh or buckholz or tavarez... besides tavarez defense this is a terrible trade. the 2007 white sox would not be better by this trade.... and the 2008 team wouldn't either... if it was a 3 pitchers for one then i can see it.... i just don't see any point in filling holes when we already have guys with higher ceilings. it's like trading down... sweeney or anderson combo is better than tavarez, mark my words.... and buckholz/hirsh are both solid throwers but neither is a john garland. hell neither are better than gavin floyd and that is who we would have as the 5th starter..... JD  konerko Thome Crede  Iguchi these guys aren't going to be around much longer.... this team shouldn't be blown up.... unless we are getting legit prospects in return...

by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 10:41 AM CST   0 recs

You are really underrating Hirsh
From Sickels:
1) Jason Hirsh, RHP, Grade A-
     10-2, 2.18 in 19 starts for Triple-A Round Rock, 102/46 K/BB in 115 innings with just four homers allowed. Nothing left to prove in the minors. An excellent pitching prospect.

He's a much better prospect than Floyd. In fact, I would expect him to easliy be better than Floyd next year.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 10:49 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Freddy for Floyd, Gonzalez, Buehrle & Crede
It seems obvious the main motivation for moving Freddy was to free up budget space.  Sox jawboning that the '06 team projected to 98-99 wins means they think they have roster in place to win, and hoping switching Freddy for McCarthy is a wash.

Are you telling me KW couldn't get a veteran position player for Garcia?  I'm sure he turned down big salary players and deliberately opted for prospects to keep payroll flexible.  Wouldn't be surprised if they lock up Buehrle & Crede long-term soon.  

I think they like this team as is, I like it too.  This is a good group of low maintenance guys who play hard, pitching fell short of expectations last year.  Sure it needs some tweaking, but you certainly don't need to blow this team up.  

I could even live with Pods leading off.  Why did he stop bunting last year, is he too proud all of a sudden because he went long twice in the playoffs?  And can anyone get him out of the batter's box quicker on grounders - it's like he stands there moping for a split second before he gets moving.  If he'd mix in a few bunts (like he did consistently in 05) and a few infield hits he'd easily have OBP of .370+

I'm not overly afraid of AL Central next year.  Detroit has all the makings of a one hit wonder, Twins are without Soriano.  I'm worried about Cleveland though.

by ChicagoPete on Dec 7, 2006 10:44 AM CST   0 recs

Cooper on the Score
-Happy that the organization is confident in him to turn [Floyd] around.

-Warm fuzzies to Freddy.

-Coop hopes Gio can compete for a bullpen role in ST.

-Looking forward to the "new-ness" of Floyd.  Saw him on TV sometime last year, thought he needed more "rythm and tempo", some more "smoothness".

-Trust in Kenny with pitchers as he has a proven track record.  Not sure what's happening in Orlando.  Blah blah blah still talking about Kenny.

-Physical stuff is there with Floyd.  Not throwing strikes consistently enough.  Not matured enough.  Gio...  Coop's not worried about his size issue.  Good arm.  Wants to see where he's progressed.  Wants him to compete for a bullpen spot.  

-Gio maturity issues?  Sure, he was a high school kid.   He's progressing "up the ladder".

-Both have good, live arms.  Major league stuff.  

-BMac frontrunner for the 5th spot (duh).  Wants Floyd to compete for the spot too.

by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 10:45 AM CST   0 recs

No extensions
ChicagoPete,
I was thinking the same thing in reference to extensions.  This one move frees up enough cash to extend Buehrle, Crede, and maybe even Dye for a few years.  

However, based off the information in hitlesswonder's diary, there is a quote from Phil Rogers that basically says KW will not extend any of his current pitchers due to the crazy market price.  By opening Day 2009, all five starters from 2006 will be gone, replaced by cheaper, younger pitchers.

by RME JICO on Dec 7, 2006 11:05 AM CST   0 recs

Since when
do we believe everything that comes out of a Phil Rogers article is a guarantee?

by brianekst on Dec 7, 2006 11:10 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

No Extensions?
Using that logic, that means all of the 06 starting staff is gone by end of '08.  You telling me Sox are going to blow up this current team, destroy all this hard-earned goodwill with the fans, and become the Marlins in two years?

by ChicagoPete on Dec 7, 2006 11:56 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Mike Downey
Did anyone see on page 2 of the tribune where mike downey stated that the cubs gave top dollar to a top left hander.... Ted Lilly is a top left hander. I think that vazquez or buehrle is the next to go... i don't want to see garland anywhere but with the white sox.... I don't really want to see CF upgraded, i think that someone of the (anderson, sweeney, owens) trio can do the job.... i would rather see uribe or pods gone.... LF or SS is the real problem... Neither one of those guys are consistent. I expected brian anderson to struggle.. but didn't he hit better down the stretch than uribe?

by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 11:22 AM CST   0 recs

BA
Here is his line from 6/11 onward.

83 Games / 68 Games Started / 240 AB / 21 doubles / 1 triple / 4 HRs / .263 BA / .313 OBP / .408 Slug / .721 OPS

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 11:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

BA
You'd expect BA's plate disclipline and power to improve as he matures, you can easily live with him and his D if he trends up a little more from his second half numbers.

I kind of see where KW is at with this team, you can certainly live with these guys currently in the field.  

Looks like the Sox want to hoard pitching instead of trading for position players.  They're filling the pen with cheap guys who pump smoke - Aardsma, Floyd, Thornton, McDougal, Logan & Jenks.  The bullpen backfired last year, hope it comes together better this year.

But then JD is gone after this year and you have to replace those numbers (Wells, Crawford).  I wouldn't want to be GM, I'd be layed up in a hospital too.

by ChicagoPete on Dec 7, 2006 12:14 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Rocco Baldelli
I heard Kenny was interested in getting Rocco. I would love for him to be our starting CF! He is 25 and getting better. He is also an Ozzie kind of player.

by Option27 on Dec 7, 2006 12:36 PM CST   0 recs

me too
In fact, you could make a case that he is  better than crawford.
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 12:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

agreed
Id take him over crawford

by Option27 on Dec 7, 2006 1:04 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Escalating payroll
I think Jerry and Co have already decided where their payroll can/will go in 2007 and 2008 and will adjust their team accordingly.  

To keep up with the current complement of needed re-signings on the team do they project an annual increase from $105 mil to $140 mil while their projected upper budget is $120 mil?  If so, as an example, they then make trades or decisions to let players go to FA based on this type analysis.  Freddy was the first.  I think length of current contract and is their agent willing to extend is the key to "who gets traded next".

Again, I don't think it will be Garland as he is a bargain, "did the right thing" last year to agree to the current contract (KW trading him now, not showing the same loyalty, would effectively undermine KW's credibility with the players), is extremely durable, and has two years left on the current agreement.

Canada's finest

by MarkD on Dec 7, 2006 12:48 PM CST   0 recs

Buckholz
I'm now hearing that he failed his physical, thats why the deal fell thru.
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 1:48 PM CST   0 recs

from where
are you hearing this?

by brianekst on Dec 7, 2006 1:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

read it here
but didn't find a link on SI about it.

http://www.minorleagueball.com/comments/2006/12/7/114653/873/16#16

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 2:04 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

and yet the player denies having a physical
seems to me like this whole "failed physical" is a phantom created by some combination of the overzealous reporters, low level team personnel, and hanger-ons down there in miami.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 2:22 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

thanks
mlbtradrumors.com also has some links about it.

by brianekst on Dec 7, 2006 2:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

BYOBBBQ
what's that extra B for?  oh, that's a typo.

mlbtraderumors.com not the aforementioned mlbtradrumors.com

by brianekst on Dec 7, 2006 2:20 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

and sox officials
deny strenuously that any deal was even contemplated. like i said before, all this stemmed from the astros' GM wishful thinking.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 2:08 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Rocco
The trade makes sense!! Please let it happen!!

by Option27 on Dec 7, 2006 2:23 PM CST   0 recs

yeah
I'd be very pleased if Chicago could trade some of their young pitchers for him (excluding McCarthy).
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 2:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

watch out for the royals!
they sign gil meche to 5/$55 mil.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 3:03 PM CST   0 recs

$11 MM/year for Gilberto?
Jesus H. Christ!  And, of course, he comes to the AL Central.  So we pit him against Garland/Cont/Mark (who IS our #1 starter this year?).  Would be a decent 4-5 starter for us.

Mike Sweeney is happy - only 4/5 of the rotation to go!  Mark Redman is pissed - he won't go to the AS Game ever again.

by winningugly on Dec 7, 2006 3:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Meche has to stay healthy to get to the AS Game
That's not a given.  I am glad he hung around to get a big payday after Lou slagged his arm, but KC will likely regret giving him five years.

by asinwreck on Dec 7, 2006 3:30 PM CST   0 recs

i'm betting
some other team will see the end of this contract. it is the royals, after all.

by larry on Dec 7, 2006 4:04 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Trade just doesn't make sense for 2007 and beyond
I understand that the Sox wanted to move Garcia, but why for such a low price?  Making the deal before the signing of Barry Zito drove down the amount of talent we got in return for Garcia.  I live in Philadelphia and Gavin Floyd leaves something to be desired.  He has shown little progress since he was drafted, though he was thrown into the limelight very early in his career.  Furthermore, by acquiring two arms, it doesn't increase our ability right away and possibly down the road.  The fact that we do have quality arms like Haeger, Broadway, and especially McCarthy (who is going to be a big time pitcher) it begs the question, why is pitching our biggest hole that needs to be filled?  Maybe down the road, rebuilding the pitching staff is necessary but isn't that what the draft is for?  I just have a hard time believing that pitching is what we should have gotten in return for Garcia, when CF, LF, and SS are the biggest weaknesses on the team.  Kenny Williams is essentially saying that Podsednik is going to have a year comprable to 2005 (which isn't a given because of his injuries), Brian Anderson is going to be the prospect that the Sox are hoping for, and that Uribe can get out of legal trouble and actually produce something consistently over the Mendoza line.  All scenarios are iffy at best.

With that said, there are positives of the trade, because Floyd does have great potential and Gonzalez is a good pitcher.  But both have really been floundering (Floyd especially) and not living up to their potential.  If they do, the Sox will have a great group of young pitchers for years to come.  Let's hope that this is the case.

Scotty

by wildsb4 on Dec 7, 2006 3:57 PM CST   0 recs