Phreddy Garcia is a Phil
By now you've heard the Sox have made the first of their off-season moves, swapping Freddy Garcia for Former big deal first rounder, Gavin Floyd, and former White Sox farmhand, Gio Gonzalez. My first reaction to the deal is, given the current price of free agent pitching, Kenny could have, nay, should have gotten a better return. It's not a terrible deal, but since I can't see how it immediately improves the '07 team, I'm not exactly excited.
The first step in evaluating this trade has to be assessing Freddy's value to the '07 Sox. ZiPS projected him to give the Sox 212 innings with an ERA of 4.46. But ZiPS has no idea that Freddy was struggling to break 90 on the gun all season. Of course, it also has no idea that Garcia was dominating in his last 5 starts thanks to the (re)emergence of a splitter.
Which pitcher are the Sox giving up? Probably a little of both. He might beat the 4.46 ERA projection with the Phils thanks to the change in leagues and move from USCF to CBP, which features a smaller HR park effect, though it's still a launching pad. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Freddy suddenly washed out. He looked dead in the water for the first 5 months of '06. Similarly, I wouldn't be surprised if he regains his old form and makes Kenny look like a fool for giving up on him.
Garcia's place in the rotation will now be filled by Brandon McCarthy. Though officially, the Sox say Floyd and McCarthy will compete for a rotation spot, I think we all are in agreement about who the winner of that competition will be. ZiPS projects McCarthy to give the Sox 142 innings of 4.69 ERA. The innings are limited because of his time in the bullpen last year, but ZiPS is not a playing time indicator. Extrapolated to 200 innings, McCarthy's projected 4.69 ERA is about 5 runs worse than Garcia's 4.46. 5 runs is about half a win, almost negligible, but not quite.
Basically, the deal upgrades the Sox rotation if you think McCarthy is likely to meet or exceed his projection while Garcia and his 87MPH heat fail to meet his. If your of the opinion that McCarthy can't match Garcia's production, there's no way I can spin this deal for you with the Sox on the winning side of the ledger in '07.
So that takes care of the 1-year of Garcia, but if the Sox held onto Garcia they could have gained 2 picks as he left for free agency. Those picks would be between 16 and 50 of the 2008 draft. ETA on any prospect picked up with those picks would be 2010 at the earliest. And that would be with a highly acclaimed college player who advanced quickly. Instead the Sox decided to take two arms formerly drafted in the first and supplemental rounds who are considerably closer to the majors.
Gio = John Danks minus three inches -- At this time last year, Gio was one of the brightest young pitching prospects in baseball. Most were waiting until they saw him succeed in AA before they placed him in the top tier, as that's a level that where many a diminutive lefty stalls. Gonzalez didn't quite stall, but he didn't blow away the competition like he did in A-ball either. He struggled with control and the longball as the season wore on, and drew concerns about whether he was fully healthy.
The HR rate may have been a bit of fluke, but we'll have to wait and see. Gio allowed a HR on 14.3% of his flyballs against a league average of 8.6% HR/FB. He also walked a batter every other inning, which says to me that he had some mechanical flaw develop once he left the tutelage of Mr. Perdew in Winston-Salem where he posted the best BB/9 of his minor league career.
Like the sub-heading says, Gio is very comparable to the pitching prospect we were after from Texas, John Danks. The main difference is their frame. Danks is 6'2" while Gio is 5'11". That frame difference is what makes many scouts favor Danks despite Gio's individual pitches being rated better. Gio can touch 93 with his fastball, though he sits in the low 90's. His best pitch is probably his curveball, and when he left the Sox organization his change could be described as average but developing.
Floyd is the Joe Borchard of pitching prospects -- Floyd was the 4th overall pick in the 2001 draft, receiving a huge signing bonus of $4.2M to sign with the Phils. He then posted good, but not elite, numbers on a quick accent to AAA, where he has stalled for the last 3 years. He's spent some time in the bigs during that stretch as well, which probably has hurt his development.
He had developed from golden boy to persona non grata in Philly, where they might even be less patient than NY with young talent. His scouting report makes him sound like a case for the pitching doctor, Don Cooper. He's lost some velocity in recent years, but still sits in the low 90's and features a big curveball. Philly scouts compared him to both Jon Garland and Chris Carpenter, neither of whom did anything notable at the big league level prior to their 25th birthday. Floyd turns 24 in January, so there's still some hope. If he doesn't succeed by April of '08 though, you'll likely never hear of him again.
While the official word on Floyd is that he'll be competing for a rotation spot, I feel he has a better chance of making the ass end of the Sox bullpen in '06, taking over McCarthy's role of disappointing young starter out of the pen.
Denouement -- With the current price for pitching being what it is, I think we're going to be see at least one trade like this each year for the foreseeable future. Williams never wants to find himself in the same position the Sox found themselves in '03-'04 without a 5th starter. He's going to compile as many young arms close to the majors as he can while still maintaining 5 major-league tested arms in the rotation. This is pretty much the same strategy Billy Beane used in Oakland as the big three neared free agency.
The Sox now have five 23-year-old or younger starters who figure to start at AAA or higher in McCarthy, Floyd, Haeger, Broadway, and Gonzalez; plus a couple of 21 & 22-year-olds who figure to be at AA next year in Harrell and McCulloch. Obviously, not all of these arms will turn into viable rotation candidates. That's part of the reason you should see at least 2 pitching prospects coming back in the eventual deal next year for Garland or Vazquez. The Sox are trying to build a pipeline of pitching talent that can withstand the usual attrition and flame outs that are to be expected in prospect development. The best way to accomplish this, while simultaneously limiting risk as much as possible, is to trade your starters with 1-year remaining before free agency for multiple arms at AA and above.
It's hard to portray this move as much more than a lateral move with potential in '07, but it helps secure the future of franchise as the current rotation ages and eventually leaves. Not an outright fleecing like we had been hoping for, but certainly not terrible enough to get all bent out of shape about.
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Comments
It's 2:45 A.M.
I was actually one of the few non-freak out ones at the time of the trade going down, which was surprising. I dunno why... I guess I'm excited to have a couple of high-upside arms in our system now.
But I'm surprised you didn't comment on the $10 million dollars saved from the deal. We're at what, ~$90 million now? With a couple of guys (Crede being the main one) still left to ink to contracts? You figure once we get those guys signed, we'll be in the mid-to-upper 90s, but coming off of a high attendance season, one would think that the payroll had a chance to be anywhere from $105-110 million. At this point, where does it go? A guy that quite obviously makes a heckuva lot of sense at this point is Bonds, but both Reinsdorf and Williams have said in the past day that #25 ain't comin' here.
Can we also get some clarification has to whether or not Floyd has options left? Because if he doesn't, I think our bullpen is set, with Jenks/MacDougal/Thorton as the late guys, and Aardsma/Floyd/Haeger-Perez-Booooone as the 'early' guys.
by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 2:52 AM CST 0 recs
Floyd has at least one option remaining
Money? I haven't crunched the numbers. I honestly believe what KW is telling me, that the Sox aren't really under any financial constraints. He's intent to build the club from the ground up in the current market. I'll be disappointed if they open the season with Pods in LF, but not because I think they're being cheap. Just because it's really obvious that there are plenty of upgrades out there that you wouldn't have to break the bank for. I'd be upset that they couldn't recognize Pods' lack of baseball talent.
by The Cheat on
Dec 7, 2006 3:03 AM CST
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About Pods
If those quotes are worth anything then there is no way the Sox believe Pods is useful.
I hope they realize this.
by madvillian on
Dec 7, 2006 3:08 AM CST
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Bullpen
The defense should be improved by the removal of Mac from CF.
I'm still waiting on a big trade that gets rid of Pods and nets a legit LF.
If LF gets upgraded signifantly I think this offseason can still turn out very good.
by madvillian on
Dec 7, 2006 3:03 AM CST
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Only reason
I know you love your prospects, Keith, so i never thought you'd be unhappy with this deal ;)
by illinikrush on
Dec 7, 2006 3:08 AM CST
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Hey, a Billy Beane comparison!
It seems that the trading market for SP hasn't blown up in proportion to the FA market for SP, which makes some sense. Teams are more willing to overpay with money, rather than give up talent. With revenues booming this seems like a sound strategy.
It's a lateral move for 2007 according to the ZiPs, and I'm not going to discount the projections. It will be interesting to see the percentile breakdowns by PECOTA for McCarthy. I wonder what his chances of a breakout are.
Gio's frame doesn't really bother me, it's his stalled periphereals that do. As for Floyd, he seems like the prototypical Sox reclamation project: hard thrower, high cieling, conrol problems and a head case to boot.
If he turns into another Thortnon I'll send KW a very nice X-mas card next year. I'll send Coop one too.
All in all it's a "meh" trade for me. At least KW got potentially useful players out of deal, and not useless veterans like some of use feared.
I'm listening to WFAN here in NYC late night and a Phillies fan just called and said that because they didn't give up Rowand it's a great move by the Phillies.
I'm glad that Rowand is seemingly overvalued by every fanbase, and not just ours.
by madvillian on Dec 7, 2006 3:00 AM CST 0 recs
Buehrle extension soon
For the Garcia trade, I would say it is within the parameters of a fair deal. Everyone just assumed the Sox could get more with the current free agent market. Especially with Floyd seeming to be slightly out of favor in Philly.
I was hoping for a mid-high end catching prospect to be included in the package.
by RME JICO on Dec 7, 2006 4:27 AM CST 0 recs
Let's reserve judgment....
by stanchar on Dec 7, 2006 6:42 AM CST 0 recs
Levine reporting Sox close to another deal?
by Tdogg on Dec 7, 2006 8:23 AM CST 0 recs
I thought I saw talk...
I'm confused as to what the next move will be. Hopefully it's something simple like picking up Toby Hall (hell, the Molina brother that just got released would be better than bringing back Sandy), but at this point anything can happen.
by CWSKeith on
Dec 7, 2006 9:07 AM CST
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from fox sports
by Option27 on
Dec 7, 2006 12:29 PM CST
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Please close for business, Kenny!
by Toonderstrook on
Dec 7, 2006 12:59 PM CST
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Complete rotation overhaul
apologies for printing the printable view on previous post
by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 7, 2006 8:42 AM CST 0 recs
Rule V Results
Major League Phase
First Round
Team: Player, Pos., Previous Org.
- Devil Rays: Ryan Goleski, of, Indians (to be traded to Oakland)
- Royals: Joakim Soria, rhp, Padres
- Cubs: Josh Hamilton, of, Devil Rays
- Pirates: Sean White, rhp, Pirates
- Orioles: Alfredo Simon, rhp, Rangers
- Nationals: Jesus Flores, c, Mets
- Brewers: Edward Campusano, lhp, Cubs
- Reds: Jared Burton, rhp, Athletics
- Astros: Lincoln Holdzcom, rhp, Cubs
- Phillies: Adam Donachie, c, Royals
- Red Sox: Nick DeBarr, rhp, Devil Rays
- Blue Jays: Jason Smith, ss, Cubs
- Padres: Kevin Cameron, rhp, Twins
- Athletics: Jay Marshall, lhp, White Sox
- Twins: Alejandro Machado, if, Nationals
- Yankees: Josh Phelps, 1b/dh, Orioles
- Nationals: Levale Speigner, rhp, Twins
- Phillies: Jim Ed Warden, rhp, Indians
1. Phillies: Ryan Budde, c, Angels
by Bull Pain on Dec 7, 2006 8:57 AM CST 0 recs
Does no one find schadenfreude
Big smile.
by winningugly on Dec 7, 2006 9:04 AM CST 0 recs
McCarthy for Wells?
Ok, that's so tenuous that I probably shouldn't post it. But we've gone almost 30 minutes without a new rumor, so I thought it was time.
I wouldn't like that trade. And it flies in the face of what Williams said he was going to do in the Trib (trade away all the veteran pitching...grrr).
On the other hand, I think Ozzie clearly doesn't like McCarthy so it wouldn't surprise me to see his whipping boys BA and McCarthy moved in a trade.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 9:43 AM CST 0 recs
After the Garcia deal...
What makes sense for the Jays? They need a power bat, so Fields would probably go north. Maybe Ricciardi is enamored with Haeger?
I'm not seeing a match at all, unless some mystery third team is involved.
A deal that would've made sense yesterday would've been Buehrle or Garcia straight up for Wells, but that makes no sense at this point.
by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 9:48 AM CST 0 recs
Maybe Buehrle?
I still think St. Louis, who was after Schmidt is a likely trade partner. But a package of Buehrle and Anderson would be fair for Wells. I don't know if Toronto would agree though.
Anyway, I think another will be traded this offseason.
by hitlesswonder on
Dec 7, 2006 9:56 AM CST
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Garland to Houston?
Willy #^$%#! Taveras and Buchholz? I don't even know what to say...
by hitlesswonder on Dec 7, 2006 10:03 AM CST 0 recs
Garland
by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 7, 2006 10:13 AM CST 0 recs
from reading the comments
bottom line, we got gio - a very nice lefty who i think will end up being roughly as good as freddy in 3 years or so - and a plus arm for coop to work with. and, potentially, more chips with which to trade. the phillies get one year of a guy who i think will be, at best, slightly better than league average in the NL. seems like a decent deal to me.
by larry on Dec 7, 2006 10:17 AM CST 0 recs
I almost like...
I just don't like Floyd. To me, he looks like a guy who was a big name prospect because he was drafted high, not becuase he can pitch. For all his amazing stuff, his K numbers in the minors are terrible. An now he supposedly has lost velocity as well.
by hitlesswonder on
Dec 7, 2006 10:24 AM CST
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well
by larry on
Dec 7, 2006 10:27 AM CST
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Garland
Phew...
by shoelessjoshua on Dec 7, 2006 10:26 AM CST 0 recs
Dodging a second bullet with Garland
by asinwreck on
Dec 7, 2006 2:59 PM CST
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thoughts
Outside of Garcia's splitter, he showed me nothing last year.
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by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:27 AM CST 0 recs
Garland for Tavarez/Buckholz
by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 10:28 AM CST 0 recs
more on Floyd
"Second, Gavin Floyd of the Philadelphia Phillies. He showed an effective curveball and a fastball with better movement than he's had in the regular season lately. I still think he can be an effective pitcher but he will probably need a change of scenery."
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:30 AM CST 0 recs
If that Garland trade goes down....
by boyonthedock on Dec 7, 2006 10:32 AM CST 0 recs
Shaftr
by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 10:32 AM CST 0 recs
i'm not sure
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on
Dec 7, 2006 11:09 AM CST
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Hirsh added
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 10:33 AM CST 0 recs
Just shot down
KW has lost it. Hirsch makes the deal more realistic, but why Garland, and why now?
by RME JICO on Dec 7, 2006 10:39 AM CST 0 recs
you know
by larry on
Dec 7, 2006 10:45 AM CST
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Hirsh
by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 10:41 AM CST 0 recs
You are really underrating Hirsh
10-2, 2.18 in 19 starts for Triple-A Round Rock, 102/46 K/BB in 115 innings with just four homers allowed. Nothing left to prove in the minors. An excellent pitching prospect.
He's a much better prospect than Floyd. In fact, I would expect him to easliy be better than Floyd next year.
by hitlesswonder on
Dec 7, 2006 10:49 AM CST
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Freddy for Floyd, Gonzalez, Buehrle & Crede
Are you telling me KW couldn't get a veteran position player for Garcia? I'm sure he turned down big salary players and deliberately opted for prospects to keep payroll flexible. Wouldn't be surprised if they lock up Buehrle & Crede long-term soon.
I think they like this team as is, I like it too. This is a good group of low maintenance guys who play hard, pitching fell short of expectations last year. Sure it needs some tweaking, but you certainly don't need to blow this team up.
I could even live with Pods leading off. Why did he stop bunting last year, is he too proud all of a sudden because he went long twice in the playoffs? And can anyone get him out of the batter's box quicker on grounders - it's like he stands there moping for a split second before he gets moving. If he'd mix in a few bunts (like he did consistently in 05) and a few infield hits he'd easily have OBP of .370+
I'm not overly afraid of AL Central next year. Detroit has all the makings of a one hit wonder, Twins are without Soriano. I'm worried about Cleveland though.
by ChicagoPete on Dec 7, 2006 10:44 AM CST 0 recs
Cooper on the Score
-Warm fuzzies to Freddy.
-Coop hopes Gio can compete for a bullpen role in ST.
-Looking forward to the "new-ness" of Floyd. Saw him on TV sometime last year, thought he needed more "rythm and tempo", some more "smoothness".
-Trust in Kenny with pitchers as he has a proven track record. Not sure what's happening in Orlando. Blah blah blah still talking about Kenny.
-Physical stuff is there with Floyd. Not throwing strikes consistently enough. Not matured enough. Gio... Coop's not worried about his size issue. Good arm. Wants to see where he's progressed. Wants him to compete for a bullpen spot.
-Gio maturity issues? Sure, he was a high school kid. He's progressing "up the ladder".
-Both have good, live arms. Major league stuff.
-BMac frontrunner for the 5th spot (duh). Wants Floyd to compete for the spot too.
by CWSKeith on Dec 7, 2006 10:45 AM CST 0 recs
No extensions
I was thinking the same thing in reference to extensions. This one move frees up enough cash to extend Buehrle, Crede, and maybe even Dye for a few years.
However, based off the information in hitlesswonder's diary, there is a quote from Phil Rogers that basically says KW will not extend any of his current pitchers due to the crazy market price. By opening Day 2009, all five starters from 2006 will be gone, replaced by cheaper, younger pitchers.
by RME JICO on Dec 7, 2006 11:05 AM CST 0 recs
Since when
by brianekst on
Dec 7, 2006 11:10 AM CST
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No Extensions?
by ChicagoPete on
Dec 7, 2006 11:56 AM CST
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Mike Downey
by ElDiablo on Dec 7, 2006 11:22 AM CST 0 recs
BA
83 Games / 68 Games Started / 240 AB / 21 doubles / 1 triple / 4 HRs / .263 BA / .313 OBP / .408 Slug / .721 OPS
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on
Dec 7, 2006 11:39 AM CST
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BA
I kind of see where KW is at with this team, you can certainly live with these guys currently in the field.
Looks like the Sox want to hoard pitching instead of trading for position players. They're filling the pen with cheap guys who pump smoke - Aardsma, Floyd, Thornton, McDougal, Logan & Jenks. The bullpen backfired last year, hope it comes together better this year.
But then JD is gone after this year and you have to replace those numbers (Wells, Crawford). I wouldn't want to be GM, I'd be layed up in a hospital too.
by ChicagoPete on
Dec 7, 2006 12:14 PM CST
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Rocco Baldelli
by Option27 on Dec 7, 2006 12:36 PM CST 0 recs
me too
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by shaftr on
Dec 7, 2006 12:57 PM CST
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Escalating payroll
To keep up with the current complement of needed re-signings on the team do they project an annual increase from $105 mil to $140 mil while their projected upper budget is $120 mil? If so, as an example, they then make trades or decisions to let players go to FA based on this type analysis. Freddy was the first. I think length of current contract and is their agent willing to extend is the key to "who gets traded next".
Again, I don't think it will be Garland as he is a bargain, "did the right thing" last year to agree to the current contract (KW trading him now, not showing the same loyalty, would effectively undermine KW's credibility with the players), is extremely durable, and has two years left on the current agreement.
by MarkD on Dec 7, 2006 12:48 PM CST 0 recs
Buckholz
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on Dec 7, 2006 1:48 PM CST 0 recs
read it here
http://www.minorleagueball.com/comments/2006/12/7/114653/873/16#16
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on
Dec 7, 2006 2:04 PM CST
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Sources
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/jon_heyman/12/07/thursday.scoop/1.html
good info also here:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4385643.html
by shoelessjoshua on
Dec 7, 2006 2:08 PM CST
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and yet the player denies having a physical
by larry on
Dec 7, 2006 2:22 PM CST
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thanks
by brianekst on
Dec 7, 2006 2:18 PM CST
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BYOBBBQ
mlbtraderumors.com not the aforementioned mlbtradrumors.com
by brianekst on
Dec 7, 2006 2:20 PM CST
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and sox officials
by larry on
Dec 7, 2006 2:08 PM CST
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yeah
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on
Dec 7, 2006 2:34 PM CST
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watch out for the royals!
by larry on Dec 7, 2006 3:03 PM CST 0 recs
$11 MM/year for Gilberto?
Mike Sweeney is happy - only 4/5 of the rotation to go! Mark Redman is pissed - he won't go to the AS Game ever again.
by winningugly on
Dec 7, 2006 3:11 PM CST
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Meche has to stay healthy to get to the AS Game
by asinwreck on Dec 7, 2006 3:30 PM CST 0 recs
i'm betting
by larry on
Dec 7, 2006 4:04 PM CST
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Trade just doesn't make sense for 2007 and beyond
With that said, there are positives of the trade, because Floyd does have great potential and Gonzalez is a good pitcher. But both have really been floundering (Floyd especially) and not living up to their potential. If they do, the Sox will have a great group of young pitchers for years to come. Let's hope that this is the case.
by wildsb4 on Dec 7, 2006 3:57 PM CST 0 recs


