What is Chemistry?
Besides something I got a D in.
We started this last year and then I dropped the ball in my championship euphoria. I think it is an oft-bandied about phrase that, if we are going to discuss its existence and value we need to define more clearly. Here is the link from last years discussion and my hijack of Brent Brookhouses post from yesterday. http://www.southsidesox.com/story/2005/10/29/14348/823
Sorry for the delay Chemistry - The composition, structure, properties, and reactions of a substance. Chemistry has an important role from a few standpoints. I'm very much old school in my approach to the game and I'm sure that bothers a lot of people, just like pure stat guys bother me. Thats why I enjoy this site, its a healthy blend between the two. Back to the subject though. Basic human nature (within all jobs not just baseball) says that someone comfortable with their surroundings and happy with their situation is able to do their job better. For example, if you work with a group of jerks who don't listen to your ideas or make you uncomfortable in your office you are less likely to be productive than if you work with a group of people who work well together and encourage your input. Now imagine that your job requires you to travel with a group of people you hate for 75% of the year. You're going to have trouble focusing and will most likely not function at your highest potential. If the hardest job to do in sports is hit a baseball, anything that is negetively affecting your ability to focus on that task is a bad thing. I'm not saying that freakish talent can't overcome poor team chemistry in some cases, but I refuse to accept the notion that it plays no impact in the success of a team. From a sheer numbers standpoint the Sox had no business winning the world series last year. You can not say that they just got "hot" at the right time, because they were the best team in the AL all season. Was all season the 'right time?' I think that chemistry played a role in it both with the attitude of the players as well as the composition of the team. Having the correct and necessary parts (i.e. a leadoff hitter getting on base, solid defensive players) is also a part of chemistry. it isn't just player attitude, it is team composition. AIM: BrentBrookhouse by brentbrookhouse on Wed Apr 19, 2006 at 08:59:38 AM CST
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Chemistry
Finally, Brentbrookhouse mentioned that statistically the White Sox should not have won that many games. I'd counter that if you look at the personnell of the White Sox, there is no way they should have had good chemistry:
Players from Japan, America, Dominican Republic, Venezuela & Cuba (Puerto Rico if you count Raul Casanova-and how could you not?). Three Clubhouse cancers in Thomas, Pierzynski and Everett. A volatile manager and a team of underachievers (Contreras, Crede & Garland). Add in the hick in Jenks and the vain in Podsednik and you have a mess.
My point is that I just don't believe that the reason this team won is because they were good friends. Rather, I feel that they started winning and that fostered friendships and good chemistry. Once that was established, the chemistry helped them get through rough stretches last year (ie August).
In conclusion, I believe in chemistry but only as a byproduct of winning.
XBL: TheMattressMan
by shaftr on Apr 19, 2006 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I should have clarified...
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2006 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
let me propose that selfishness is innate
I would argue that showboating (Boo Yaa!) is a much bigger problem than guys looking to pad their stats.
Funny thing is that people hold up basketball players as being selfish when in truth they are much more co-dependent than baseball players - even superstars play defense and pass - whereas baseball players can be almost completely selfish and as long as they follow basic rules - cut-off men, base coaches - as long as they perform, they are seen as ideal citizens.
by dyspeptic on Apr 19, 2006 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's a great point about team compostition
that said,for you is chemistry is a kind of momentum? If so, how does it translate into productivity? and/or is it a prophylactic against the inevitable losing streak?
by dyspeptic on Apr 22, 2006 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
by james@lifeinthecell on Apr 19, 2006 10:53 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
how about...
by dyspeptic on Apr 19, 2006 11:26 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
this doesn't affirm or put a value on chemistry
by dyspeptic on Apr 19, 2006 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chicken or the egg?
Now, on to the effect of chemistry on the outcome of ballgames. I think Brent's point about how people tend to perform better in a positive environment is a valid one. And I think it applies to baseball in this sense: The "work" of baseball isn't the 3 hours on the field 5 or 6 days a week. That's the end product. The work is everything else: the practice, the travel, the preparation. So good "chemistry" could mean that your pre- or postgame workout isn't as much of a chore because a couple of your buddies are doing it with you. Travel isn't as exhausting because you have a card game or a night out with guys you legitimately like ahead of you. Talking baseball more frequently because you enjoy each other's company keeps you a little sharper mentally. Studying film together instead of alone could produce greater insight. The sum total of all these little things could give a team with good chemistry a mental freshness or a comfort level that allows the players to play to the best of their ability more often. It doesn't make them any more talented, but it may allow them to get a little more out of their talent, to avoid as many bad days. And players having fewer bad days could be the difference between winning and losing a handful of games over the course of the season.
Finally, I find it curious that most stats-oriented fans who dismiss chemistry typically attribute any discrepancy between a team's actual results and those predicted by statistics to luck, which, to me, is a concept at least as amorphous as chemistry.
by Ryno on Apr 19, 2006 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
luck vs chemistry
i'm sure most sox fans would much rather substitute the word "chemistry" for "luck." it just makes the championship seem more deserved.
i think that assigning a discrepancy between real results and pythagorean projections to such abstract and unquantifiable notions as luck OR chemistry without any further investigation is shoddy analysis. (not that i'm willing to devote one iota of time or energy to such a project in excess of posting this comment-- it's just that when BP, Shandler etc are out there selling thick volumes for $24.95 a pop, the conclusion that the white sox' 05 victory was, from a statistical point of view, "lucky" is dissatisfying and left me contemplating a request for a refund).
if you're going to develop such things as PECOTA, it seems that you should at least attempt to explain when the results don't add up. In my view, "luck" just doesn't cut it. Absent some concrete statistical back-up, "chemistry" doesn't either. I mean, how many clubhouse games of poker add up to a run created? or, how much joint ribbing in front of the video machine adds points to an OBP? how much does ozzie's positive attitude contribute to crede's VORP? would contreras never have turned it around without the sage ministering of el duque? or was it his family? what factor caused his BB/9 to plummet after 8/05?
These questions can't be answered without wandering off into the realms of conjecture and opinion. Ultimately, though, this is fine. You sit in the bleachers with a plastic cup full of beer and a bag of peanuts and you bullshit with the guy next to you about the mysterious metaphysics of why a seemingly ordinary team like the sox can't stop winning, why they always seem to pull out 1-run games, why ozzie, despite his impulsive illogic, usually makes the right move...
maybe we should accept that these things aren't quantifiable, that they are the seams through which the beauty of the game drips onto the pages of statistics, a peculiar kind of indecipherable calligraphy...
by spengler on Apr 19, 2006 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a third way
by dyspeptic on Apr 19, 2006 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quantitative vs. Qualitative...
All professional athletes are insanely talented, otherwise they wouldn't be pros. I seriously think that a lot of what separates them is mindset and attitude. Call me crazy, but I think when you get a bunch of guys believing in themselves, their teammates, and their coaches, a shift in attitude also occurs. The whole thing takes on a new meaning for the players. This is a tricky thing to describe, but I think this new meaning shifts the attitude of the players, and allows them to focus and think differently especially in high pressure situations. There is a very real qualitative change in the way they approach the game, which even if seemingly tiny, could have an enormous impact in high pressure situations, and be the difference in a game.This might make a little more sense if you check out the "history of scientific revolutions" part. I also think the following quote from one of my other comments is pertinent as well:
There is a reason that teams go from good to great, and it directly relates to the ability to create what we call chemistry. Maybe it isn't that the guys like each other, but it is about making a team out of players, and pointing them in the right direction. It's not quantified by stats and numbers, but it is the exact reason that I was happy when Ozzie got here, and I was happy with the moves they made last year. Kenny put together the team Ozzie could manage. Bringing in Manny or Sheffield would be a terrible move for this team. Losing Konerko and Podsednik would also be equally terrible in my opinion because they are key components to what Ozzie does.
To this I would add bringing in JI
JIM THOME was a great move because of who he is and how he plays (especially if he statys healthy), but it still hurt to lose Aaron because of things like this.
Bottom line is that relationships matter. They play a large role in how we see ourselves and ultimately how we see the world. Whether we like it or not, humans are social beings, and to think that relationships on a baseball team don't affect how that team performs is a laughable idea.
For the most part, "chemistry" is an extremely fluid dynamic system that is literally impossible to quantifiy because there are so many variables involved and they are constantly changing. For this reason I'm not surprised that the stat-heads don't llike the notion of chemistry. They tend to focus on mostly static quantifiable data and project meaning onto the numbers because they get to feel all serious and superior because they are being objective and scientific. The truth is that with Quantum Theory, String Theory, Chaos Theory, and Relativity; "science" has realized we can never be completely objective, and that it's meaningless, disengenuous, and possibly even dangerous to do so.
With that being said, I have no problem with the stats and the sabers. I think they're interesting, and the more I learn about them, I think they can be useful in terms of understanding baseball from a quantitative perspective, but I also think they're only part of the puzzle. In the end, to me it seems ludicrous to decry qualitative variables and there effects, one of which is "chemistry".
There's a lot more I could say about this, but I think it's enough for now. Sorry this is so long.
by simplesinger on Apr 20, 2006 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice post
i agree that you cannot boil baseball all the way down to pure numbers, and i think that is what i was trying to say...
perhaps someone can integrate string theory into pythagorean projections, and we could end up with some mind-bending ways to formulate a roster.
by spengler on Apr 20, 2006 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talk about mind bending...
by simplesinger on Apr 21, 2006 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plug this in to the formula
by spengler on Apr 22, 2006 2:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think your point about the environment
BUT, trying to put a fine point on it, the baseball player does exist in a world off the field and that world is intensely peopled by the baseball team he is on. For the short term, a few days or so, having confrontations or disagreements or even loneliness, may not impact on the player. There are examples of people whose performance improves when they are thus focused. But throughout the course of 6 months, chronic negative psychological states may have performance impacts.
This may manifest itself in actual game performance but I would argue it is more likely to impact on preparation. Preparation requires both discipline and positive orientation to the future. These can broken down by negative frames of mind.
Finally, a counter argument would be that, with some teams, too many friends or too much good times leads to a similar breakdown in preparation. I'm not recalling examples in baseball but if anyone wants to help me out....
by dyspeptic on Apr 22, 2006 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chemistry effects motivation
25 guys all pulling on the same rope.
by zokmaad on Apr 19, 2006 12:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
isn't one-up-manship
by dyspeptic on Apr 22, 2006 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not in the way I meant it
I've worked on teams and coached/managed teams so let me say there is a big difference between working with guys who we called glory hounds or jerks and guys who spread the credit and refrained from pointing the finger when mistakes were made. If one of my peers produced something cool, a tool for example, I'd use it. In our case the other team members would enhance it. Believe me I've seen plenty of cases where the reaction would be 'what do we need that for'. Some people refused to take a phone call when they were not on call even if it was as simple question. I'm not on call. Call so and so they'd say. Then they'd bitch about it the next day. How many guys are gonna be willing to stay late to help when that guy needs a favor?
So my point is your team can be successful without good chemistry. But one thing we learned is someday that weakest link is either going to kill you or save you. The good teams wanted him to save us.
I coached a team that was full of board members kids. They wanted to play together. That was good. They were the youngest kids in the league. That was bad. As a result we had the worst record in the league. We played hard every game but were usually over matched. When it came to the playoffs we had to play the best team. A team that was stacked with older kids. But they had a terrible attitude. They whined and pouted and complained despite having the best record in the league.
When we beat them. They wouldn't even shake our hands. My 3-18 team became an instant legend.
One more story about that team. We played in a poor area where kids could not afford to pay. As a result We struggled to field a complete team. The first hurdle of every game was the forfeit due to too few players. To my guys that meant no matter how terrible you were, just showing up was the difference between victory or instant defeat.
As I said my stars were the youngest kids. My duds were the ones you hoped would draw a walk or not get the ball hit to them. By the end of the year they all knew their role and limitations. One thing I rarely heard on my team was the phrase 'you stink'. That's because no matter how bad you were, you were an important part of the team. By my measure that was a succesful team - with good chemistry.
by zokmaad on Apr 22, 2006 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really comparable
But these are highly individuated professionals engaging in their craft. They are self motivating, for both reasons of professional pride and compensation. Morevoer, the composition of each club is essentially the same from one club to the next, i. e. there are no national, ethnic, racial, community, or any other kind of differences which would bind them to make their collective success somehow larger than the specific competition, like there are all through college.
I don' t think it translates
by dyspeptic on Apr 24, 2006 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I guess my other argument is
I need a little more.
by dyspeptic on Apr 22, 2006 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tried to give you something
by zokmaad on Apr 22, 2006 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the stonger argument
What is the case for it? I know Canseco is kind of a dick but did his teammates hate him? And anything negative about Tony LaRussa is always appreciated.
At least one of the those world series losses was to a Reds team with great pitching, all of which seemed to peak at the same time. That said, I think they beat Eckersley in at least one game.
by dyspeptic on Apr 24, 2006 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ha!
I'll leave it at for me good chemistry is something I believe in. That its an intangigle that you want to add to your mix if you can. I believe it gives your team an edge. I guess the why and how are too hard for me to understand or explain.
by zokmaad on Apr 24, 2006 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The effects of chemistry
The positive aspects may cause players to work a little harder, stay sharper, etc. But the negative ones could cause some players to do the same thing. If one player feels out of place with everyone he may try to prove himself with extra effort and work. One player on a bad team might give up in September while another one gives even more to increase his trade value. This difference alone would make it impossible to give 'chemistry' a value of 'x' when judging performance.
In that vein, maybe Everett does better in a more hostile clubhouse. Or maybe AJ was just so happy to be out of the poisonous atmosphere of SF that he went the extra mile with the pitchers. And maybe Ozzie is such a good reader of people that he's good for a few extra wins. Who knows?
by Peder on Apr 19, 2006 6:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My one quandary
That doesn't mean I don't buy into 'chemistry'. IMO, part of the reason Crede has been able to turn it around is because he seems a heckuva lot more relaxed. Maybe it's just because he's been through the trials and tribulations of the playoffs, but he seems so calm and cool now. Same goes for someone like Contreras, who really looks like he took well to last year's group of guys (the obvious specific person being El Duque).
by CWSKeith on Apr 19, 2006 6:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Different Rythum?
If every player went up to bat trying to hit a homerun, I would reason to guess that would be a bad team. Further, if every player had it in their best interest, they would try and do that. After all, aren't most salaries based on statistical analysis: the highest salaries going to the players with the most homeruns, RBI's, Wins, and strikeouts?
The fact is, even if a team has "poor chemistry" i.e. they hate each other, they can still be good teams because they have players who understand what the best play, with the best percentage of executing, is for that given situation and complete it.
So...baseball requires a team mentality, and it requires both selfish and selfless motives to accomplish team goals. Good chemistry comes from the realization of the players that a united effort will give them a better payoff, which is financial and/or emotional.
As a matter of fact, I would argue that football is less of a team sport because you have completely different players on offense, defense, and special teams. It's more like 3 teams in one.
by DeeDubs24 on Apr 20, 2006 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But can you ascribe Crede's progress to chem
Young guys get better on bad teams and even crusty guys make adjustments relatively late in their careers to go to another level. (insert Barry Bonds joke here)
by evilcookie on Apr 22, 2006 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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