White Sox Trade Value Index (part 2)
Continuing from yesterday
- Tyler Lumsden -- Lumsden is starting to live up to the expectations that come along with being drafted as a sandwich pick. He might have the best stuff of anyone in the Sox minor league system, and though he doesn't have a great strikeout rate, he's been inducing groundballs at a great rate and keeping the ball in the yard.
- Javier Vazquez -- This is probably a little low on the list, but like many of you, I'm frustrated with Vazquez -- probably too frustrated to accurately separate myself to objectively assess his value -- Vazquez has a reputation for being inconsistent and carries a large contract. Things can change quickly, though. If I had made this list last season, Jose Contreras and Bobby Jenks wouldn't have even made the top 20.
- Matt Thornton -- I now infamously opined that you would grow to hate Matt Thornton, but I'm glad I was wrong. Thornton, under the tutelage of Don Cooper, has turned himself into a valuable reliever worthy of receiving high leverage work. Lefties who throw 96+ don't grow on trees. His value just 3 months ago wouldn't have cracked the top 40. He's got 3 years of arbitration ahead of him, keeping his salary deflated.
- Lance Broadway -- 2005's first round pick hasn't been as consistent as Lumsden in AA, but holds better peripherals. He profiles to be a #3-4 starter. His value is higher than Lummy's because of his durability and perceived 'safeness' (for lack of a better word) as a prospect.
- Scott Podsednik -- There is bound to be some team in baseball who thinks that Pods can play center and is their key to jump-starting their offense, but I don't know if KW can find them. His defense is poor, he's not getting any faster, and he's about to get more expensive.
- Freddy Garcia -- Garcia's lost his stuff, and it's plain enough for anyone to recognize immediately. I've ranked him higher on the list than Vazquez because his contract is smaller, and he carries less long-term commitment, signed only through 2007. There are plenty of teams who would love to have him though, sending good prospects in return. If the Sox don't move him this off-season, they won't resign him, and shouldn't offer him arbitration. For that reason, they should be looking to deal him sooner rather than later.
- Neal Cotts -- Hey look, the Sox still have something of value from the Keith Foulke trade. Cotts is a very good reliever with a flair for stranding inherited runners. Once considered a starting pitching prospect, he never developed the secondary pitches to stick as a starter. That, and he just became too valuable in the pen. Entering his arbitration years, where if he's locked up long term on the cheap, he could gain more value.
- Tadahito Iguchi* -- I'm unsure of Iguchi's contract status beyond the 2007 option the White Sox hold on him. If he's still arbitration eligible, which I suspect he isn't, he should fall just inside the top 10. Since I suspect he isn't, I'll put him here, tied for 15th.
- Jon Garland -- Poor first half aside, nearly every team in baseball would love to have Jon Garland on their staff, but his contract out-prices about half of them. His trade value isn't what it was 3 months ago, obviously, but his relative youth, recent turnaround, and the fact that all of his stuff remains in tact keeps his value relatively high.
- Ryan Sweeney -- Not since Frank Thomas have the White Sox had a position prospect who carried with him a virtual guarantee of success at the major league level. Sweeney is still more than a year away from producing at the major league level, but his results are starting to match the rave reviews he consistently receives from scouts.
- Juan Uribe -- Juan Uribe will never be a superstar, but he can play one for the White Sox for weeks at a time. He's under ChiSox control through 2008 at less than $5M/yr. With his consistent defense at short, and his occasional offensive outbursts, he's a solid value, though I doubt many around baseball realize what type of player he truly is.
- Brian Anderson -- Don't let the sub-Mendoza Line average fool you, Anderson is baseball player. It appears as if he's finally starting to relax and let the game come to him. He has a chance to fly up this list with a strong second half. Strong up the middle defenders with his range who don't cost anything, not surprisingly, are in high demand.
- Josh Fields -- At this point last year, I was calling Josh Fields a bust. Again, I'm happy to be wrong. He may not pan out, but he has made himself into a prized prospect in just 12 months. His value drops as soon as he is moved to a position other than third, so the Sox would be wise to move him before they are forced into the position switch.
- Paul Konerko -- Konerko's Kontract is simply too expensive for many major league clubs. Given the current rate of salary inflation in MLB Konerko's 12M/yr. probably won't be as hard to move at the end of his contract as you might envision right now. Still he figures to play out his contract with the White Sox simply because production from 1B/DH isn't that hard to find, and most teams aren't willing to pay this much for that production.
- Joe Crede -- The Man-crush has two more years of arbitration left. I figure that the White Sox will offer him a three-year deal after the season, buying out a year of free agency in the process. His value will eventually be determined by that contract, but as an arbitration eligible player he still carries considerable value. His offensive and defensive production at a reasonable price put him higher on this list than Konerko.
- Brandon McCarthy -- 22 year olds who can pitch league average ball don't grow on trees. When Brandon is moved into the rotation next season, and if he pitches above average as I expect him to, he could secure the #1 spot on this list. His diminished role in the bullpen this season doesn't do much to diminish his overall value to most clubs.
- A.J. Pierzynski -- I bet most of you are surprised to see Pierzynski sitting this high. I've been railing on his low RBI total in many of the gamethreads, but the truth is good offensive catchers are hard to find. And I think AJ's defense has been much more solid this year too. He's signed through 2008 at around $5M/yr., and no matter which Pierzynski you get, the low-average power hitting '05 version or the high-average doubles hitting '06 version, that's a bargain. His value may be depressed by a bad reputation, however.
- Jermaine Dye -- Jermaine's in the middle of an MVP season, and is locked up through next season for the relatively paltry sum of $6M. There's not a team in baseball who wouldn't love to have Jermaine patrolling their right field at his current price and production. He ranks below Thome, because he hasn't consistently put up numbers in the past.
- Bobby Jenks -- Jenks questionable past, inconsistent minor league performances, and the screw in his right elbow keep him from being the White Sox player with the highest value, but it's close. Jenks wouldn't have even made the top 20 a year ago, so he's made some huge strides. He's got at least another year at near the league minimum before he reaches arbitration. It might be worth the gamble to lock him up at below market value following the season. Given what some teams are willing to pay for proven closers, it probably wouldn't be hard to move him in the event that he loses it.
- Jim Thome -- Since the Sox are only paying Jim $8M/yr., that is the salary figure I'll use for this excersize. At that price, Thome is one of the best post-arbitration values in baseball. Only his age and worries about his health keep him from sitting atop this list.
- Mark Buehrle -- Buehrle has a $9M option on his contract for 2007. There are only a few teams in baseball who wouldn't be willing to pay for his type of consistency. In fact, the reason that he doesn't rank #1 on this list is that the Sox have his rights for only the next year and a half.
- Jose Contreras -- How you rank Jose Contreras depends on how you view his last calendar year, and whether you feel he is capable of repeating that for the life of his newly signed 3-year contract. Contreras is signed through 2009 at a cost never exceeding $10M/yr. Given what the market value for league average pitching will probably be like in '09, Contreras should be a bargain. I've ranked him #1 because he's pitched better than Buehrle for the past year, and figures to better than him for the life of Buehrle's contract, with two years tacked on for good measure.
Yes, I realize there's 22 players on this half of the list. Originally, I had Iguchi listed as an asterix and Crede-Uribe listed as one entity.
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There have been some questions
The truth is there's no hard and fast rule as to how I ranked these players. Sometimes I asked myself how much do we value this player. Sometimes I asked how much is this player in demand, and what would I expect in return for said player. And sometimes, like in Konerko's Kase, I just had to move him lower do to the fact that he really can't be moved.
If he was traded, I would expect a haul of players more valuable than say Pierzynski would bring. But for that to happen, for the Sox to find a team willing to give up big talent, they'd have to eat part of his contract.
The prospects are a little tough to list too. I wouldn't accept a trade of Sweeney for Garland straight up. Sweeney's listed that high, simply because I value his future highly enough that I don't want the Sox to trade him. So he ranks up with some of the other relatively untradable players. -- Fields is another story because of Crede's presence on the list. I'd trade him in a heartbeat, but the price still has to be right (read: high).
It was intended to be a fun excersize, and I had fun putting it together, especially the top 10. Some of those guys moved around in my own head from 8 to 1 to 3 back to 1 again as I was writing the capsules. There's no right answers, and putting a number next to each name probably makes this seem like an absolute, but that's not the case. These things are fluid, and there are caveats that apply to each ranking.
hope that answers some of the questions.
Fun read
Same goes for AJ and his RBI, Juan and his brutal slumps, Garland and his early struggles, etc.
Thanks for putting this together Cheat.
Can someone please.....
because
Sweeney's minor league stats, body type, swing, etc. fall somewhere between these two players. He's going to be a good one. You just have to have the patience before you eventually see it at the major league level.
Another comp would be Sean Burroughs...
AB 395
BA .322
SLG .447
OPS .851
K 54
BB 37
That was in the PCL, which could inflate the numbers. But the bottom line is that Burroughs has never been able to hit for power. I agree Rios is a good comp as well. But Mauer's numbers in the minors look significantly better than Sweeney's to me (although I don't know how the leagues and parks compare).
I have never seen Sweeney play (so my assessment is more suspect than usual), but the numbers don't look like a can't miss prospect to me. I would like the Sox to keep him but if he was the key to a good trade I'd have no problem with him being moved.
by hitlesswonder on Jul 11, 2006 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Mauers numbers are better
Sometimes you have to trust the scouts, and I believe that Sweeney is one player who will prove that out.
Burroughs never developed the power, Mauer and Rios are just starting to come into theirs...and there's a chance that Sweeney might be more like burroughs, struggling to crack the .100 ISO mark. -- I like his chances though.
Burroughs-Sweeney comp
Burroughs was a big kid who physically matured at a very early age. He first achieved fame in his early teens as a star Little League player and continued to dominate his competition throughout his late teens. However, Burroughs ran into a problem . . .everybody else caught up to him, especially as he progressed towards the majors, and he didn't really improve. He's virtually the same player today that he was in his late teens-early 20s . . .the guy simply hasn't improved at all.
Sweeney has a bigger frame than Burroughs but was an absolute stick in his late teens. It's taken some time for him to physically mature but he is definitely filling out, especially over the last year or so. In fact, one might envision Burroughs' development as being a straight line with Sweeney's a slow but steady rise past Burroughs - they were similar players but only briefly.
Other than waiting for the power to develop, there aren't too many chinks in Sweeney's armor. The guy has a beautiful swing that should let him hit for average immediately and at least a fair amount of power in time. His pitch recognition and plate discipline are already very good despite aggressive promotion. He even looks like he's going to be a good defensive player capable of playing CF if needed/desired. This is NOT a guy the White Sox should even think about moving in a trade . . .I think they'll end up regretting it sooner rather than later.
Speaking of Jenks
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=grant/060711
Yup,
Despite that, thanks for posting it 289.
I'm still not sure what
by twoeightnine on Jul 11, 2006 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
agreed
what does this mean, is kw crazy b/c he's black? I've always thought kw is a serious guy, not anything like ozzie. that was a bad, confusing, piece.
Maybe it's just bad writing, but...
The point is,
Dye, Iguchi, Buehrle, Garcia
Tender, sign, tender, non-tender.
Will be:
Sign, tender, sign, non-tender.
I get the feeling that Dye won't age well, and that Buehrle's seen his best seasons; however, they are beloved by the organization so they'll be back.
MLB is so barren of 2B talent right now that I say you sign Iguchi for a 3-4 year extension after this year (I'd prefer 3, but doubt he'd do it).
Garcia is a no-brainer. Trade him if you can, play out the string if you can't. He's done.
By the way...
by BridgeportJoe on Jul 11, 2006 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Dye
I don't know
Put all that in a shaker and mix it up, and I think any deal that takes him to age 35 might really be a mistake--and I don't think that JD will sign a two year deal.
This is especially the case with Konerko and Thome both here through 2009 (2011 in Paulie's case), meaning that you couldn't hide JD at 1B or DH until the last year of a 3 year deal beginning in 2008.
JD is one of my favorite players on the Sox. He really seems like a very nice guy, and his production in a Sox uniform speaks for itself. I just wouldn't want to be on the hook for $8-10M a year through his age 36 season.
by BridgeportJoe on Jul 11, 2006 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Joe, you are COLD
Actually, I was off by a year
In any event, you're right about Reinsdorf's loyalties. Williams and Guillen, too, for that matter. I just think it's a mistake on the field. I really wouldn't be surprised to see JD basically be end-of-his-career Bernie Williams in right when he's 35 or 36. Which isn't nearly worth the money he's going to get after next year if he continues to play even remotely well over the next 15 months.
by BridgeportJoe on Jul 11, 2006 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe if we keep adding
Baseball move is to sell high, but I'm a sentimental guy. Bernie deserves better than to be booed in NY (maybe we'll get to hear it this weekend) but is a liability on the field.
Iguchi
He has a good bat for 2B, and he generally seems to have a plan at the plate. But I would guess that he won't age gracefully in the field or in terms of contact skills at the plate. There aren't any real organizational alternatives, so I would be happy with some sort of extension but 3-4 years beyond this one might be too long.
by hitlesswonder on Jul 11, 2006 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I admit I understand nothing about stats
I mean, honestly?
error
I could believe that, but even so the sample size is small enough that even the author himself says to take it with a grain of salt. Most people say you need a good 2 seasons worth of data before you can definitively label someone a "bad fielder". However Paulie's only had one season (last year) where he didn't grade out as a bad fielder.
I think it is useful...
I didn't read much of the explanation of the author's methodology either. But there are certainly a number of questionable things:
- no quantification of possible error that I can see
- using "runs" as a unit probably only increases the error margins
- it seems to not account for type of pitching staff they play behind
- what about players in surrounding zones that could "take away" plays
Saying that Iguchi and Konerko both lack range seems about right to me. Dye graded out as neutral (neither very good nor bad) defensively, which I think is also right.
So, yeah, I'm sure those numbers have lots of problems. But before the White Sox give Iguchi a 4 year extansion I would hope they would look at them. And then tell some intern to go look at videotape of every ball hit around 2B for the last year and a half and figure if he really is that bad, or if the numbers aren't telling the story straight.
by hitlesswonder on Jul 11, 2006 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Correction
"no rigorous quantification of possible error"
As noted above, Dial mention the 2-3 run margins. But I'm still not confident that's an accurate assessment.
by hitlesswonder on Jul 11, 2006 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Extension
by BridgeportJoe on Jul 11, 2006 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Buehrle
I think 4/$48-50 (with an option for a fifth year) is what is a pretty fair and solid offer. He'd be the highest paid player on the team, and (still) one of the top paid pitchers in the game.
Nice article, BTW, Cheat. There's a good chance that, by next year, McCarthy and Anderson are both in the top five, IMO.
I just remembered a dream I had last night
I had a dream the the Sox traded Contreras for Joe Blanton and "a guy who throws hard." Kenny was a laughing stock for trading for the guy he famously passed on in Moneyball.
Sounds like
One word For Reinsdorf
We're only 2 games out.
by daimon9 on Jul 11, 2006 3:14 PM CDT reply actions
Alan Grant
Alan clearly needs to take the Jay Mariotti class on poor reporting: if you're going to be misleading and lazy, at least be entertaining while you do it.
The article is an aimless collection of random social commentary, obvious jokes, and bad assumptions.
I've read the article twice now carefully, and I still don't understand what Alan is arguing about a) Jenks, b) racism, and c) the White Sox.
It seems he's saying that prejudice and power combine to form the scariest form of racism. Alright, fine, I'll agree. But he sure has a convulated way of arguing that.
He seems to be saying that Jenks isn't a bad guy and didn't set off his racism "radar" (is it anything like "gaydar"?), but then contradicts himself by implying that if people find out "Jenks' story" then they won't like him because his story indicates he's a drunken racist.
He seems to be saying that the White Sox should be applauded for "doing their own thing"--then says it's for "better for for worse".
It's an opinion piece Alan--take a position please.
Perhaps he's not arguing anything at all and I should just give it up. I know one thing: if he brought this to writing workshop as an aspiring undergrad during his Stanford days, they would have told him to stick to football.
And no Alan, it wouldn't have been racism, it would have been meritocracy in action.
Did you work at a writers workshop???
http://www.deadspin.com/sports/espn/hey-look-whos-hiring-185767.php
by DeeDubs24 on Jul 11, 2006 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
Lead, follow, or getr out of the way. In this case, he should get the hell off the airwaves and keep it confined to "club" talk. (Or SSS, where we can beat the crap out of him with the written equivalent of a head-butt to the chest.)
I feel better.
LOL
I haven't worked at a writing workshop, but I've been a part of a few in my time.
And a fair number of blog commentators would make a fine editor for Page 2.
Contreras
Nice work otherwise; a fun read.
Jenks
That's all I know about him and it seems pretty good to me.
Just like Charles Manson,
Though Jenks can't do 5 push-ups. Love the boy, but look at his pecs, for Chrissakes.

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