No more denying it: Jose Contreras Sucks!

by The Cheat on Sep 2, 2006 12:09 AM CDT in Game Threads

I'll let the numbers speak for themselves.

IP H HR BB K ERA AVG OBP SLG 1st year 200.1 184 29 98 160 4.85 .243 .335 .420 8/05-DL 123.2 94 5 30 83 1.82 .210 .260 .292 Post DL 128.2 141 15 38 91 5.18 .275 .331 .424

I think any 3 year old who's seen Sesame Street can see that "one of these things is not like the others." * * * * *

I could really go on an extended rant here, but honestly, there's nothing new to say. The same sorry sack of shit keeps playing in LF. The same nice-bat-if-it's-on-the-bench keeps starting in CF despite turning even routine plays into adventures. Ozzie continues to preach pitching and defense, then starts an inferior defensive team, while the pitching continues to suck. The worst part is he alternates between shirking responsibility for the problem, and throwing players under his proverbial bus. He never seems to be willing to make the obvious move to fix our problems, giving far too much rope to veterans who continue to underperform. For example, here's what he had to say tonight:

"I think we played very bad defensively," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "I'm not going to blame Jose. If you don't get help, you're not going to look good."

There's no denying that the Sox defense in the 4th gave up a couple runs, but you've got to put part of that blame on Ozzie not putting his best defensive club on the field. The defense had nothing to do with the 4 extra-base hits that Contreras allowed either. That blame lies squarely on The Count and the rest of the White Sox staff who refuses to acknowledge that there is anything wrong with him.

I don't even think it's his sciatica. I'm more inclined to believe it's an elbow issue. That would explain why I haven't seen a slider in probably a month, or why Contreras has allowed less than 6 runs in just 1 of his last 6 starts.

Ozzie could have come out in his post-game and said, "dis keed, Jose, he not been very good for us lately. He's trying to pitch through some pain. But we can't win giving up 6 runs in a start, so now that we've got some reinforcements from the farm, we'll turn to Brandon McCarthy down the stretch." How refreshing would that have been?

* * * * *

I saw some chatter about the Sox being unable to score from second on a single, and all I have to say is that's what happens when there is a strong defensive arm in LF. And you can't complain about Joey Cora in one breath, then about the Sox inability to score from second in the next. As of today, we have two capable left-handed bats who can play LF, both of whom have strong arms. I'd be willing to bet that neither of them start a game in LF before the Twins clinch the wild card.

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Incongruous

Scott Podsednik is hitting .259/.331/.359. He is slotted in a position that will get him more ABs than any other sox batter.

Jose Contreras since coming off the DL has allowed a .275/.331/.424 line.

If Contreras is pitching well, drawing praise from Ozzie, wouldn't you expect his line to be lower than our crappy leadoff hitters?

You can't say that both of these guys are doing their jobs. Throw some assholes under the bus that fucking deserve it.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 2, 2006 12:26 AM CDT reply actions

Umm

Contreras is an asshole? I wonder what he did to deserve THAT.

by Gregory Pratt @ South Side Sox on Sep 3, 2006 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Should the Sox fail to make the playoffs-

And, seeing how hot and cold this team is (more cold than hot, lately), I feel inclined at this moment to believe that this team won't make it -- what would you, the Sox fan, put as your top five individual reasons the Sox didn't make the playoffs?

1.) Scott Podsednik
2.) Ozzie Guillen
3.) Insert starting pitcher
4.) Insert starting pitcher
5.) Insert starting pitcher

So I'd probably go with Garcia, Contreras, and Vazquez as my top three.

Actually, I probably should put Guillen first, because he has some power to lessen the blow of some of these shitty performances.

P.S. Free Ryan Sweeney!

by CWSKeith on Sep 2, 2006 12:45 AM CDT reply actions

It's the pitching...

I agree with your choices, the order doesn't really matter. The biggest reason for the Sox going home is their entire starting staff, except Garland, underperforming by a shocking amount. The bullpen implosion of Cotts/Politte/Hermanson actually hurt too.

If the Sox pitched to their PECOTA projections, Guillen's managing wouldn't have mattered. As it is, the team is clearly at a performance level where bad managerial choices make a difference, likely between the playoffs going home. So I'd put Guillen 2nd. Keeping BA on the bench, McCarthy in the pen, and Pods in LF -- that's too many bad decisions to be excusable. Again, the frustrating thing is that Guillen always talks about being here to win, not hold someone's hand, and yet he does the opposite (unless it's a relief pitcher).

by hitlesswonder on Sep 2, 2006 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions

And yet, no pitching alterations in sight unless

the big "if"...

If the final series of the regular season at Minnesota has playoff implications for the Sox, Guillen said he would consider altering his rotation.

"We'll try to treat that as a playoff game and hope we're on the top and not down. We want to make it interesting."

If the Sox's rotation stays intact, Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia and Jon Garland would pitch the final three games at the Metrodome, with Jose Contreras and Javier Vazquez available because of a day off on Sept. 28.

by southsidefan on Sep 2, 2006 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions

Insanity

Contreras as a reason we didn't make the playoffs? You're nuts.

Garcia and Vazquez I can buy.

by Gregory Pratt @ South Side Sox on Sep 3, 2006 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Contreras

has started 26 games for the Sox.... Guess their record in those games....

Oh yeah, it's 13-13 the same as Vazquez.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 3, 2006 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions

intellectual honesty

That isn't entirely Contreras' fault like it is with Javier or Freddy, and any intellectually honest analysis will show that.

by Gregory Pratt @ South Side Sox on Sep 3, 2006 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions

you expect to be 13-13

when your fifth starter is going. you don't expect that from the guy who is your number 1/2 starter. you don't expect a 5+ ERA from contreras. you expect vasquez to be close to that. contreras is playing far below expectations. vasquez is arguably playing at or, at the very least, near them. that's why contreras is more at fault. we don't have the same standard of play for every man on our roster.

by larry on Sep 3, 2006 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions

Frustration

Is watching a team not give itself the best chance to win. If the Sox put their best team on the field, and simply got outplayed by the Twins, that would actually be relatively easy to take.

But what has happened, is that the Twins stopped playing their underperforming veteran players. The Sox still push theirs out on the field. The results will speak for themselves.

Putting McCarthy in the rotation should be an easy decision. The hard part should be figuring out if it's Freddy or Jose that sits (answer: Jose).

Playing Mack absolutely has to be the worst offense though. Anderson had an .800 OPS in August. Mack was at .668. So, HE DOESN"T EVEN ADD OFFENSE IN CF at this point.

As for Sweeney playing in LF, there's no chance. Ozzie said he wasn't afraid to do it tonight, and that Sweeny would get a chance. I think we've all seen how Ozzie kept Anderson on the field after he saying he would play him regularly. Proportionally, that means that Sweeny will be back in CHA tomorrow.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 2, 2006 12:47 AM CDT reply actions

3 CFs in one game

Ozzie is so in love with making moves based on what appendage a person is blessed with.

Mack starts in CF tonight, because the tough righty, I guess to the sox he is tough, is pitching. It cant be because of rest, because Anderson got in the game with a 7-1 deficit. Why you ask, because LHP Jimmy Gobble is up. Then later in the game, a right hander is throwing, so Ozzie once again pinch hits for Anderson. Now throwing Ryan Sweeney into CF. One game 3 CFs. Nice job overmanaging Ozzie. Now the game gets close, and Sweeney is a batter away from making his major league debut with the bases loaded in the 9th with the game on the line. Good job with helping the kid get a chance to suceed. All this while Pods faces lefties, righties and gets thrown out on a ball hit towards the line by 3 steps.

Anderson should of been in the lineup tonight. Mack and Gload should of been pinch hitters off the bench or one of them should of been starting in LF.

I suggest that Sweeney gets the start and leads off tonight. He cant possibly be worse than Pods. I mean even if he Ks 4 times, like Pods did the other night. He at least will catch the ball, and can throw the ball.

by southsideirish71 on Sep 2, 2006 12:50 AM CDT reply actions

Sweeney

shouldn't start against a lefty. He's alright hitting for average against them, but had no batting eye and no power. It's the one major flaw in his game right now. He'd look so much better than Pods against a righty though.

I was really hoping it would come down to Sweeney in the 9th with the bases loaded. If he got a hit, he'd have one more clutch hit than Crede, Thome, and Konerko combined the last month... or at least it seems that way.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 2, 2006 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions

Hitters 4, 5, and 6 combined

1-10 last night. Some key walks and SF's, though! That's what you pay them for - right? Who cares about a key hit?

Paulie has not taken well to moving to 5th in the order. JD has flourished but has fewer RBI's because the boys who get on - Paulie and Thomer - are doing it via the BB, and Pods/Tad aren't lighting up the sky ahead of JD.

Guys getting paid $13MM/year ought to deliver key hits. Guys getting $10MM/year ought to be able to pitch over errors and knuckle down against the Rays and Royals. Guy who get paid $2-3MM/year to manage these pieces ought to be able to have a clue as to who is hot and who is not, and play them accordingly.

HOWEVER, Twinks are staggering, too, as are the Tiggers. And Boston has imploded. So if we can play .600 ball down the stretch we are in. Always have hope.

by winningugly on Sep 2, 2006 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions

17-11 = slightly better than .600.

I can't see that happenning.

by southsidefan on Sep 2, 2006 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions

Oziie Guillen: Professional Manager

'I hope the players don't get caught up like, 'Oh, we're up now [in the wild card], we have to win,''' Guillen said. '

Ozzie Guillen was thrilled to have Jim Thome back in the starting lineup on Friday...'His problem is the first step out of the batter's box,'' Guillen said. "That's why I told him, 'Hit home runs. It's been a long time since you hit one. Hit home runs, and you don't have to run the bases.''

by southsidefan on Sep 2, 2006 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions

I just want to see something different..

Im sick of the same old shit. Pods still in LF. Mack in CF more than Anderson(seems like it.) McCarthy being used once every 3 weeks.

Make a move Oz. This current bullshit aint getting it done.

by Tony82087 on Sep 2, 2006 12:57 AM CDT reply actions

Kenny Williams

I know he probably feels the day-to-day managing decisions belong to Ozzie. But I have a hard time believing he can agree with Ozzie's choices at this point. This is a guy who will trade half a farm system if it means a marginally improved shot at the playoffs. That kind of aggressiveness doesn't mesh with Pods sticking in LF right now.

We're already past the point where I would have thought he would suggest some changes, so maybe KW just feels it Ozzie's season to win or lose. Sort of surprising.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 2, 2006 1:03 AM CDT reply actions

If I were to make a like like Keith

KW would be #3 behind his same #1 and #2. Not because Kenny didn't give the Sox a good enough team, but because he didn't insulate Ozzie from being able to make stupid mistakes.

At some point, he has to use a heavy-handed micro-management approach and tell Ozzie that BA is his CFer 6 days a week, with Sweeney the 7th for the rest of the year.

At some point, he has to tell Ozzie that just because a guy can't hit for power, or do anything else of use, he doesn't need to lead off. There are plenty of other capable hitters on this club.

Perhaps his biggest mistake though, was not acquiring a cheap 4th outfielder who was actually better than Podsednik anyways. There were more post-deadline deals done this season than in any other that I can remember. It's not hard to find an LFer putting up a .660 OPS with poor defense, yet he did nothing. I suspect this has a ton to do with Ozzie's insistence on having a speed guy at the top of the lineup, but it sure as hell doesn't matter when you're never on base.

And finally he has to force McCarthy into the rotation. This one is the hardest for me to be critical of, because I thought there was no chance that these guys would continue to be this bad. I don't have access to their medical reports, or talk to them after the game. I don't know how these guys feel on a day-to-day basis, but I think it's KW's responsibility to say, "I foresaw the situation in which we would need a capable sixth starter. That's why McCarthy's here. Let's all be honest about our maladies and replace the guy who is most damaged" (because there has to be some injury issues with at least a couple of these guys.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 2, 2006 1:27 AM CDT up reply actions

I'm a little drinky tonight

I think you should get the idea though

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 2, 2006 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions

Macks review of is D.

From Macks own mouth...

Only Ozzie thinks Mack can play CF it seems.

"I've been horrible, actually," Mackowiak said. "There's no point in lying or candy-coating anything. It's been bad.

"I don't know if it's not being out there much in your career and you get out there and you are overexposed. Before, I would play one [game] in right, one in center and maybe play third. But when you go out there on a daily basis, you see the stuff you need to work on to get better at a certain position."

It's something I need to work on in the winter and try to get better defensively, because it has been absolutely terrible this year," Mackowiak said. "My routes are not as crisp as a guy like Brian's are. You are taking banana routes to balls and it becomes a struggle.

"You continue to keep trying to get better, but it's frustrating because it's an important position up the middle to have good defense. It's frustrating to not do your best out there and that it sometimes hurts the team."

by southsideirish71 on Sep 2, 2006 1:20 AM CDT reply actions

What can I say...

I like Rob Mackowiak. Not shifting blame, just speaking the truth and taking responsibility. Gotta respect a guy that goes out, plays hard and is honest. Not his fault he gets trotted out to a position he himself admits he has no clue about.

by rebstock on Sep 2, 2006 2:22 AM CDT up reply actions

I'm not sure

if a 4th Ofer was out there who'd be a better fit than the guys on the sox 25 man. At the deadline, who would have been replaced? Gload, Ozuna, Mack? Each bring more to the sox than what marginal improvement the new 4th OFer would have likely brought.

The Sox know Pods sucks. But you can't replace him at this point [Sweeney could see some time in LF and it's worth a shot]. But the best time is in the offseason. And he's not the #1 most important factor in determining if the sox will make the playoffs this yr.

The Sox season will and has rested on its pitching. the offense has carried a lot of the load this yr--esp. 3-7. Yet if the SP's and bullpen do their jobs in Sept, the sox will have a chance to repeat. With the injuries to the Twins and Red Sox, the sox are still looking in decent shape.

by cfisk72 on Sep 2, 2006 6:45 AM CDT reply actions

Did BA kill Ozzie's dog?

Oz had the following to say about Sweeney (emphasis mine):

"I don't mind starting him to see what we have," Guillen said. "Even in a pennant race, you have to understand it's not a call-up to see what you can do next year for me. But if [Scott Podsednik] continues to struggle, I might give Pods a day off for mental, not physical [reasons] and give the kid an opportunity to play. He [also] will get a chance to play center field."

WHY? Why can't Ozzie see that BA is the best option in centerfield when it's obvious to everyone else on the planet? Frankly, I'm sickened by his stupidity on this issue.

by Ryno on Sep 2, 2006 7:55 AM CDT reply actions

The first part is actually good news

I suppose I could've concentrated on that, but his bias against Anderson is so confounding it drives me to drink.

by Ryno on Sep 2, 2006 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions

the mental part

I believe that synergy is key in team efforts, and to me it all starts with the guy that makes out the line-up card. However, when u are dealing with a mediocre pitching staff that implodes in the 4th, 5th or 6th the psychological toll is contagious. The guys behind u slump in the field, your hitters are in a hole... I know these guys are pros, but man, they have looked jumpy and shitty at the plate. Thome is gimpy, Paulie has lost his stroke...hard to believe we can leave so many men on base. Yes, these boys are snakebit.

by wiretap on Sep 2, 2006 8:35 AM CDT reply actions

Just so ya know:

The Sox will take one of the two playoff spots from the division.

A lot of your critiques are on point, but they could change any day, and even if they don't, we still could win.

by xian on Sep 2, 2006 8:58 AM CDT reply actions

Capable 4th OFer?

Isn't that what Mackowiak is?

From the stories I've heard about Anderson ("arrogant," "full of himself," "pigheaded"), he's not starting in CF because of a personality issue. Period. He's an elite-level defensive CFer who is going to post a .265/.325/.400 line year in, year out. Basically Aaron Rowand with better reads, speed and discipline, but a little less plate coverage and power. The type of guy you don't give up the farm for, but one that you thank heavens that you can trot him out there in CF for cheap for the next five years.

But Ozzie's pissed off because he thinks that "dees keed" thinks too much of himself, and that's just not how rookies should behave. They should be shy and quiet and "just glad to be there," like Bobby. Well, fine, but not everyone is on their fourth chance in baseball after nearly being run out of the game for being a borderline retarded drunk with (additional, and I'm not going to name them) serious issues.

Guaranteed: If you stuck Anderson in CF, Mackowiak or Sweeney in LF, Cintron at SS against tougher righties, and got McCarthy 5 starts the rest of the year (at the expense of some combination of Vazquez, Garcia and Contreras), this team would go 18-10 or better the rest of the way. Definite wildcard, maybe win the division if they swept Detroit at home.

Ozzie isn't going to do any of these, so I'm guessing 15-13 and a 50% chance at the wildcard (and only that high because Minnesota's rotation is in much worse shape than ours).

by BridgeportJoe on Sep 2, 2006 12:25 PM CDT reply actions

We like jerks!

(e.g. "Punch AJ".)I can see trying to break a rookie like a colt but if it costs the team a playoff slot I think it's up to the players to lean on BA. Ozzie makes out the card and is the final arbiter re: who does/doesn't play. Vets need to tell BA what time it is (if your assumptions/scuttlebut are accurate).

So perhaps the "chemistry", or "vibe", or "magic", the amorphous things you can't measure by BA/OBP/SLG/OPS/ERA/WHIP are what is keeping us from clicking.

by winningugly on Sep 2, 2006 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions

it has to be a personality issue

keeping BA out of CF so much. Nothing else explains it at this point.

Which makes it all the more frustrating. Assuming for the sake of argument that BA is a bit of an arrogant prick, why should that matter? From Ty Cobb on up, the game has been full arrogant, pigheaded assholes who played every day.

And helped their teams win.

by spengler on Sep 2, 2006 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't think that's safe to assume

Ozzie's said before that Anderson has a great attitude, and he was surprised how optimistic he was even when hitting under .160.

In Tucson, he signed autographs longer than any of the other players, talked to strangers' friends when fans handed their cell phones to him, etc. Given the way the Sox have dealt with personality issues -- see Rauch, Jon, or Marte, Damaso -- I don't where personality comes into play.

Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Sep 2, 2006 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions

it's as good

an explanation as any i've heard. what else is there? handedness, i suppose, but that is beginning to border on the absurd. what do you think?

by spengler on Sep 2, 2006 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions

All we know....

..is that Ozzie doesn't like him. It's either:

Ozzie just doesn't like BA (his approach, attitude, whatever).
Ozzie is convinced BA cannot hit at the big league level, and unless he can steal bases, his glove isn't worth playing.

I actually think it's #2 (hence the "become Juan Pierre" advice for winter ball). It's actually more upsetting than #1 I think because it shows terrible evaluation of player performance.

Either way, I don't see BA ever starting everyday in CF while Ozzie is the manager. I think there's a real chance BA is moved in the off-season and someone like Dave Roberts is in CF next year (he can steal...).

by hitlesswonder on Sep 2, 2006 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions

i agree that

if it is your option no. 2, then that represents rotten player evaluation. and it doesn't make any sense, because they knew BA was a rookie, knew going in that he might struggle for a while, but that in the meantime his CF glove would make it OK. that was the whole calculus for the thome-rowand trade.

Now that he's shown marked improvement with the bat, especially when compared to his usual replacement (mack), what sense does any of it make? wasn't this the idea all along?

so, unless KW is on board with this rotten "hit for power or for speed and learn it in winter ball" evaluation, it has to be that Guillen just doesn't like BA, which is ultimately a personality issue. I don't see KW on board with this, because BA has turned out to be more or less what they were looking for,

by spengler on Sep 2, 2006 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions

a larger quote of ozzie's speed or power comments

[Mike Spellman]

"I told Brian he has to go this winter and work on (stealing bases). I told him he's going to be a power hitter or a baserunner. I think Brian Anderson is the fastest guy that doesn't know how to steal bases. When you play center field, you have to go deep or steal bases. Right now, he isn't doing either one. He has to work on it and (decide) which one he is going to pick. We need more speed."

HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Sep 3, 2006 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions

look on the bright side

Observations so far
Every one of our pitchers has taken turns being really bad. I'd say we have 3/5ths in decent shape. 1 has potential. The last has a problem.

The pen is still our main asset. Who was that kid effectively throwing that dancer last night and why didn't he warrant a mention? Don't worry I know the answers. I liked the way those disciplined Royals approached those at bats.

Pods has warn out his welcome. There's no way he lasts another week in the everyday line up. No way. Or Ozzie should lose his job - I'm dead serious.

I'm not sure I understand the BA talk here. He's up to .230 and gaining on Uribe and Pods. He's a great kid - I know from personal experience.

Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn You White Sox!

by zokmaad on Sep 2, 2006 3:31 PM CDT reply actions

Most people here

Want BA to start everyday. People are just trying to guess why he isn't, and Ozzie not liking BA's attitude was one suggestion.

For my part, I've never heard anything bad about his attitude. I'm glad to hear that you think he's great guy. He certainly seems to do a good job interacting with fans.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 2, 2006 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions

he's just a kid

I'm surprised Ozzie who lets his kids tag along in the dugout doesn't relate to him on that level.

My impression is not from one interaction either. He's befriended the son of a good friend. I've heard a lot of stories over the past year.

Maybe its just something we here are not getting. Maybe we are over thinking the whole thing. Maybe Ozzie really feels he still has time for Pods to snap out. He may feel he really needs his 'base stealer'. That's why I think he won't go with him much longer.

Comonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn You White Sox!

by zokmaad on Sep 2, 2006 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions

With Anderson...

I really think that not just Ozzie, but quite a few of the upper echelon guys, took exception to how Brian approached batting below the Mendoza line. I think they expected him to be sweating it out, calling on anything or anyone for help.

But he didn't. Brian knew it would eventually turn around and it did. But I think his biding time was thought to have been not caring about improving.

I've heard Ozzie say that he couldn't understand how Anderson could be so calm when he was batting so poorly. So I agree 100% with Ozzie taking exception to Brian's attitude and then stupidly punishing the whole team by putting Mackowiak in center.

by rebstock on Sep 2, 2006 4:33 PM CDT reply actions

If all of our speculation is true, then Ozzie

is a detriment to us winning ballgames from here until the time either he is gone or until KW makes sure that, as somebody mentioned, Ozzie is given personnel that he can't mess with.

Viking God, Bears Fan

by Toonderstrook on Sep 2, 2006 5:03 PM CDT reply actions

Trying to "manager-proof"

a team is a losing proposition. It's impossible to set up personnel in such a way that the manager will have no chouce but make the right decision about who to play all year long.

If you can't trust your manager to generally put the best team on the field, you have to get a new manager

by hitlesswonder on Sep 2, 2006 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions

Which is always a double-edged sword

In this case, I like a lot of what Ozzie has to offer, but I think he's making some very poor personnel decisions with respect to bullpen use, CF and LF. I don't think he's getting the most from the players he has.

I would love for KW to take him aside and give him the what's what.

GO SOX!

by rhythm on Sep 2, 2006 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions