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Crunching some numbers

I really wanted to write a recap tonight -- the second back-to-back wins of the month has temporarily taken off some of the edge from the brutal second half -- but I found that everything that I wanted to say had more to do with next year rather than the remaining 6 games. So, while I said I was going to wait until after the season, I thought I'd open up this Monday by laying the groundwork for our off-season talk.

The first order of business is, of course, payroll.

Pos Age Name 2007 OF 24 Anderson, Brian .40** P 26 Buehrle, Mark $9.50 P 34 Contreras, Jose $9.00 P 25 Cotts, Neal .80** 3B 27 Crede, Joe $6.00*** OF 31 Dye, Jermaine $6.50 P 29 Garcia, Freddy $10.00 P 26 Garland, Jon $10.00 1B 29 Gload, Ross 1.00** P 33 Hermanson, Dustin $0.50* 2B 31 Iguchi, Tadahito $3.25 P 24 Jenks, Bobby .40** 1B 29 Konerko, Paul $12.00 P 29 MacDougal, Mike $1.50** OF 29 Mackowiak, Rob $2.75 P 22 McCarthy, Brandon .40** IF 31 Ozuna, Pablo .45** C 29 Pierzynski, A.J. $5.50 1B 35 Thome, Jim $14.00 P 29 Thornton, Matt .75** SS 26 Uribe, Juan $4.15 P 29 Vazquez, Javier $12.50 ===================================== 21 PLAYERS + 1 BUYOUT $111.35 ===================================== (1 STARTER) (10.00) (CASH) (8.00) ===================================== 20 PLAYERS $93.35 * Buyout ** Estimated arbitration or pre-arb salary *** Crede's new 3/$24M deal; structured 6/8/10
  • Dye, Iguchi, Buehrle, and Hermanson have options in '07
    • Jermaine's option will obviously be picked up, but he reached incentives that increase his salary to $6.5M.
    • Iguchi will obviously be picked up as well. There aren't many 2B options out there, and none better than Iguchi at 3.25M, though he also reached some incentives so that number is more likely 3.5M.
    • It seems absurd to me that there's even a question about whether Buehrle's option will be picked up. If he hit the free agent market this season, even with his brutal second half that saw him become the worst starter in baseball, he'd be as in demand as other free-agents-to-be Barry Zito, Jason Schmidt, and Daisuke Matsuzaka. Picking up his option remains a no-brainer. What to do with him after picking up that option is another story.
    • Hermanson has been surprisingly useful in September. His option of $3.5M is just too much to pick up, however. The Sox could buy him out and try to sign him to cheaply fill in the back of the bullpen.
  • Thornton, MacDougal, Cintron, Cotts, Gload, and Podsednik are arbitration eligible.
    • Thornton is entering his first year of arbitration, and will be a relative bargain. The Sox would be smart to lock him up to a Damaso Marte-style deal.
    • MacDougal is also entering his first year of arbitration, but he could be quite expensive. Saves is the one thing that relievers are highly compensated for in arbitration hearings, and since MacD isn't our primary closer, the Sox would also be advised to sign him long term. -- (Yes, I see the irony. I thought both the deal for Thornton and MacDougal was ill-advised, and now I think they should be signed long-term. That's why Kenny is the GM, and not I.)
    • Cintron will be in his second year of arbitration, and could see his salary double. $3M is probably more than the Sox can afford for a backup middle infielder. (A non-tender candidate)
    • Cotts' shitty season really clouds his future. If Boone Logan had done anything to stake his claim to the second lefty spot this September, I would advocate trading Neal. As it is, I think you have to go through spring with both of them, and hope one of them figures out their problem.
    • Gload has seen very limited playing time in his 3 seasons with the Sox, which should keep his arbitration number relatively cheap.
    • Podsednik is the most interesting case. It seems that Kenny doesn't want him back, and I know I don't. I really don't know what the market would be for Pods. He shouldn't be too expensive (around $3M), and may be attractive to some teams; but it could go the complete opposite direction also, with him being non-tendered and plucked off the scrap heap as a bench player/4th outfielder. I don't expect the return in the inevitable trade to be worth much at all.
  • I signed Joe Crede to a fictional 3/$24M contract
    • Earlier this season, I said that Crede should get around 3/$20M, but after thinking about it some more, specifically with regards to the other 3B in town, I think the money will need to be more than that. 3/24 seems about right to me. He's making less than 3M this season, but with his breakout numbers he could see that number double at arbitration. I don't think the Josh Fields' arrival will have any bearing on the negotiations. On the contrary, I think both the Sox and Crede want to do the deal. That being said, I think there's an elephant in the room in Crede's balky back.

      Reading between the lines of this most recent article at Chisox.com, it looks like Crede (understandably) wants nothing to do with off-season back surgery. But from what I can remember from earlier articles quoting Herm Schneider, he thought that it would be a very easy surgery with very little recovery time. I could see the opposing views about the surgery being a very big issue. If Crede doesn't get surgery, expect him to be shopped, with Josh Fields being your guaranteed opening day 3B in '08.

Given the White Sox recent history of reinvesting the gate receipts into the following year's club, and the record crowds that showed up in '06, I think we'll see a team with a payroll at, or maybe even in excess of, $100M, but I doubt they'll get much higher. $105 is probably a ceiling.

That should get some conversation going around here. -- Oh, and Hawksview wanted me to remind you that the season is not over, and the Sox are still in it. Their elimination number only fell by 2 the last couple of days, and currently stands at 2.

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Sweet!
I'm getting mentioned in Cheat's posts now!  I'm famous!
Just.Win.

by hawksview on Sep 25, 2006 12:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Consolidated thoughts
At one point or another, I've thought about all these possible ideas (and, sadly enough, these are only the ones off the top of my head -- there's more where that came from).   You guys can critique them any way you like, good or bad (btw, I know some of these are conflicting, and obviously, couldn't BOTH be able to  happen -- you'll see):
  • Garcia for Coco Crisp.  I think both teams benefit from this deal, as the Sawx get a number three/four starter to plug in for next season, and we get our new LFer.  The hope with Crisp is that this season was a fluke, with that finger injury nagging him all year long, and that he returns to the .300/.360/.450 guy he seemed to be evolving into in Boston.  We get better defensively, as Crisp was one of the best defensive LFers when he was with Cleveland, but we also get a decent leadoff hitter who will satisfy the saber-fans, Kenny, and Ozzie, as Crisp can steal 20-30 bags a year.  My problem with this deal is that it would most certainly mean another year in Charlotte for Sweeney and maybe even Fields, and I'm not sure they need another whole year down there.
  • Get a real backup catcher in here.  Sorry -- Chris Stewart isn't doing it for me.  Get somebody who can mash the hell out of lefties.  Yorvit Torrealba?  Miggy Olivo?  Get someone who can give us the type of year that Mike Redmond had for Minny, and to a lesser extend, Vance Wilson for Detroit.
  • Is there any chance we could get Orlando Hudson for a reasonable price?  He and Uribe would make for the best middle infield in baseball, bar none.
  • Freddy Garcia for prospects.  The two teams I have in mind are the Mets and the Dodgers, with Phillip Humber and Scott Elbert leading the respective packages from those teams.  I'd really like to get one more B+ starting pitching prospect in our system, and I think Garcia will be our best chance to do that.
  • Jimmy Rollins seems to be this winter's lovechild at Soxtalk.  The majority of people have clung to him as the savior of our leadoff spot woes.  I'm not thrilled by the idea, as I don't see Rollins being better than Uribe plus the package we'd have to give up.
  • Like Octavio Dotel last winter, Kerry Wood is this year's "guy Keith wants the Sox to sign for the bullpen".  I'd only advocate it if he came at a fair price, as I don't like paying through the nose for relievers.  
  • Three way deal -- Sox send Jose Contreras to Texas, Texas sends Michael Young to Chicago, Chicago sends Tad Iguchi to an unknown third team, and the third team sends prospects to Texas.  
  • How about Manny?  This team needs to improve against left-handed pitching; there's no getting around that.  And, as we've seen this year, Ozzie is stubborn, and, even though somebody is going to finish the season with a sub-750 OPS vs southpaws (cough hamfists cough) this season, Ozzie doesn't want the players to panic.  So, trade Jim to an unknown team (Anahiem wants to make a splash), send those prospects to Boston for Manny, who could DH for us.  It'd go a long way to solving our woes vs lefties.
That's all from the wackiness that is my brain. ; )

by CWSKeith on Sep 25, 2006 1:27 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Are you serious with some of these scenarios??
  1. You don't think Rollins is better than Uribe?
  2. Why in hell would Texas give up Micheal Young, especially for Contreras who is almost done?
  3. Kenny and Ozzie would never try to get a guy like Manny because of his "just Manny being Manny" kind of attitude.
  4. Sorry, but Tadahito isn't going anywhere.
  5. Kerry Wood's going to be very expensive whether as a starter or bullpen.
  6. Coco Crisp probably has the best chance of coming to the Sox and taking over Pods position.

by ckimcircles on Sep 25, 2006 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you read?
I said:  

I'm not thrilled by the idea, as I don't see Rollins being better than Uribe plus the package we'd have to give up.

I don't think Rollins is better than the combination of; prospects + big leaguers Kenny would have to give up in order to obtain Rollins; the difference in Uribe's and Rollins' contract, seeing that there's still close to $30 million left on his contract; and Uribe himself.

Again, trying to articulate myself a little more clearly here, I'm not saying Rollins is worse than Uribe.  He's clearly better.  But I don't know if he's better to the point where I'd like giving up Fields + a couple other decent prospects.

I won't be pissed if we get Rollins, though.  I just don't think he does much to solve our top of the order woes, seeing that his highest one-season OBP was .348.  

Kenny and Ozzie would never try to get a guy like Manny because of his "just Manny being Manny" kind of attitude.

They've taken on bad attitudes before.  Funny how this year's team, the supposed 'great attitude' group led by Konerko, Buehrle, Thome etc etc failed to make the playoffs, yet a team with Frank Thomas, Willie Harris, and Carl Everett was able to win 99 games.  

I'm not saying chemistry made the Sox what they were last; clearly that's not the truth.  But I think using chemistry issues alone as reasoning to NOT get a player is wrong.

Otherwise, I do agree with you that my proposed three-way deal is a bit off the wall.

by CWSKeith on Sep 25, 2006 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"chemistry" is overrated
i like AJ's comments - which wizard posted, i think - regarding chemistry. when you win, you have chemistry; when you lose, you don't.

a team should probably be wary about taking on players who are problems off the field - as in arrested and whatnot - and should be concerned to a degree about "bad" or selfish attitudes. but i don't think manny, for example, has hurt his team. from what i've gleaned, he's a decent teammate and obviously a hell of a player. i don't think the guys mentioned by keith are bad teammates, either. the thing to watch out for is a player who goes beyond complaining about his own playing time or position and starts throwing his teammates under the bus. there are players like that out there - we know who they are - and manny and frank and carl aren't those sort of players.

bottom line: play hard and well and lots of what you say will be forgotten/forgiven.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rollins
Is he better than Uribe defensively? I haven't seen him enough to know, but I do think Juan is the best defensive SS in the AL. Cheap gold glove defense and 20 HR power at SS, even with a lousy OBP, doesn't need to be replaced.

Keith is right that the big point is that Rollins doesn't solve the OBP problem at leadoff. I'd rather see the Sox get someone who can really get on base.  I don't see an available SS out there that can do that. I think it would be easier to get OF who can.

by hitlesswonder on Sep 25, 2006 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're still on kerry's jock, huh?
he's too expensive. you really need to get over it. not gonna happen.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That should say...
Hudson and Uribe would make the best defensive middle infield in all of baseball.

by CWSKeith on Sep 25, 2006 1:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

so
If Chicago sweeps Cleveland and KC takes 3 or all 4 of their games against Minnesota.  The final series will mean something.
AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Sep 25, 2006 10:06 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

fun stat
this weekend was the first time since aug 7-8 that we won back to back games. a month and a half.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 10:11 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

unless you mean...
September 8-9, then OK.

by kaskomm09 on Sep 25, 2006 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Uggh.
I love talking about payroll figures for the White Sox, and figuring out where they could stand in the upcoming season with regards to payroll. I also like talking about 2007 more than the waning days of 2006.

On the flipside, I hate the trade discussion talks which always involve crazy complicated scenarios, condescending incredulity, out of context quotes, appeals to stupidity, personal attacks and flamewars. They make SSS (or really any blog) into HH, if you know what I mean...and I think you do.

Cheat - You should have put up the unadjusted payroll figures, as Crede is still somewhat likely to be traded. Just with the straight payroll the White Sox aren't doing so badly. They will trade one or two starters and get quite a return on each, given the market for pitching.

Freddy Garcia is worth way more than Coco Crisp, Keith. By a lot. So is Mark Buehrle, if the Red Sox choose to target them. I see the White Sox traded a starter(s) to one of the following teams this offseason:

Reds
Cardinals
Angels
Red Sox
Rangers
Possibly the Orioles or Blue Jays
Any random NL club that wants to contend next year and needs pitching

I'm still holding out hope that the Sox go after Crawford, though it looks like he'll stay in Tampa Bay. The Sox could also trade Crede, if they chose to anyone on that list. Likeeeeeeeeeee the Reds, or the Angels.

I think it's too early to speculate on who'll go where, as we don't really know anything. I think it's likely that Buehrle is traded to the Cardinals, still, but that's my own pet trade idea. Just like signing Crede to a 3 year $24 MM deal is your pet idea.

by Stealfirstbase on Sep 25, 2006 11:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

So I'll throw this out there...
Freddy Garcia (and/or Joe Crede) traded to either the Reds or the Angels. Get back Chone Figgins, Angels prospects like Hank Conger (not Brandon Wood, obviously), and Edwin Encarnacion from the Reds. That's as specific as I'll get.

Buehrle to the Cards for Molina, Wainright and Reyes.

Obviously, in the first set of deals for Garcia and Crede, we don't get enough in return. The Angels would have to toss in someone besides Conger to make that deal work. In the second deal I've got St. Louis giving up too much for Buehrle, so we'd have to even that out.

But that's how I think this offseason will play out. Three trades with the focus being on acquiring young pitching and filling an organizationals weakness at SS, 2B and catcher.

by Stealfirstbase on Sep 25, 2006 11:33 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Conger
can't be traded until next June since he was a 2006 draft pick.  He's good.

by Bull Pain on Sep 25, 2006 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought that might be the case...
In any event, we'll get good return on the guys we trade. If we can't have Conger, there are other guys out there.

And really, I trust Kenny Williams. Whoever he trades for will probably end up being pretty good. The man knows what he's doing.

by Stealfirstbase on Sep 25, 2006 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Probably talking out my butt
as I am often known to do.

What about Dye for Ichiro? Or is Ichiro "untouchable" in Seattle? I love JD, but I'm guessing this year was a career year and we have plenty of guys that can hit homers.

Certainly Ichiro solves your leadoff/outdfielder woes.

by tailgater on Sep 25, 2006 12:22 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

ichiro untouchable?
no, jd is untouchable
HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Sep 25, 2006 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't buy that
33 next year. last year of his contract. likely at his peak and, not to mention, coming off a career season. DHing is in his future and we already have Paulie long term. KW isn't sentimental.

i'm not sure i'd trade him for ichiro. but i'd certainly listen to offers.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

what kind of offers?
roy oswalt? jason hirsh and something? (second is probably too much yes?)
HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Sep 25, 2006 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don't do specific trade talk
because it's really all just pissing in the wind - especially at this point in the year. i'd be looking for pitching, though - but prospects, one close to major league level and one further. i'd probably also want a major league player, as well.

my general outline for the offseason is trading one of our starters, getting a LF, 2 bullpen arms, a utility infielder, and a backup catcher. if we upgrade in LF and move JD, i would not be adverse to having mack be our starter in RF.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Explanation
It is an attempt at determining a player's seasonal age.  The majority of players have a birthday during the season, so the baseball age is how old the player was as of some date in the season (I believe sometime in July is the date).

Not sure if I explained that very well.

AIM: shaftr01

XBL: TheMattressMan

by shaftr on Sep 25, 2006 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

JD's born in january
he'll be 33 then. i already knew what you said which is why i was quite confused about what he said. i thought he was trying to make a point about how JD hasn't played a lot of games or something.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops. Then his Bball age will be 33.
Selling high on Dye might not be bad idea. Consider, though, that Dye took less money to be with the White Sox, and there's a small chance that some of his steps forward this season are for real and could translate into improved performance next year.

Selling high on Dye could hurt the team in future FA negotiations and has the potential to get rid of a good performer next year.

by Stealfirstbase on Sep 25, 2006 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

those are considerations of course
i'm not advocating actively shopping him. i think this was a career year for him and i certainly don't expect him to match it next year. but i don't think his performance is going to drop off markedly. he's still cheap at $7.5 million.

however, if you get an overwhelming offer for him, you take it. i don't think any future free agent would hold it against us if we did. i just wanted to point out a few reasons why he certainly isn't untouchable.

by larry on Sep 26, 2006 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ichiro
Already has said he wants out of Seattle.  But he'll command a hefty salary wherever he goes.  I'm sure he wants to be on a contender, and Chicago fits that bill.  

Dye's not going anywhere.

by Happy Felsch on Sep 25, 2006 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He would be a great addition
and Tadahito would have a buddy that understands him.

If not JD, what would the trade bait be? I'm not sure what Seattle is in need of...a lot I would imagine.

by tailgater on Sep 25, 2006 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ichiro was an awful hitter
in the 2nd half.  He had an OPS in low 600's and his slump can be linked pretty easily to the M's collapse.  But his defense and SB rate continue to be the best in baseball.  However, in any situation, Ichiro is playing RF.  I don't see Dye moving to LF and 1B/DH is taken.  If Ichiro wants out, the Sox aren't a good fit.

by Bull Pain on Sep 25, 2006 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

by awful hitter in the second half
you mean an awful hitter in august, right? his numbers look pretty good to me.

by larry on Sep 25, 2006 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

August was his worst month by far
but his post ASB numbers are 280/321/338.  And that's with a hot stretch in the last 2 weeks after the M's were playing out the string against non-contenders.  However, he hasn't been caught stealing since April 19!  38 consecutive stolen safely.

by Bull Pain on Sep 25, 2006 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm
worthless player living off a fluke home run that wouldn't have been necessary if he had a better arm than a 7 year old girl-ific!

by Bull Pain on Sep 25, 2006 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No...
Pods was an awful hitter in the 2nd half...most of the first too I would imagine.

by tailgater on Sep 25, 2006 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

more on crede
the trib includes herm's comments as sell:

[Mark Gonzales]

"I think the biggest thing will be rest for it. It definitely helped last year, getting rest in the off-season. We'll explore options and see what happens this winter. But I don't think surgery is needed, and I was told by a specialist that it's not needed."
and trainer Herm Schneider:
"Crede will have to make some decisions. He knows what he's up against. I think it's between the powers that be to decide what comes of that. He knows the cards that have been dealt. I'm going to have to be told what to do. He knows all the options."
HEY THIS IS JI
JIM THOME
THE PEORIA POUNDER

by The Wizard on Sep 25, 2006 1:24 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I remember when Hermanson...
...refused to get back surgery. Look where that got him. And it pissed off the White Sox. If Crede doesn't get surgery, Kenny's going to trade him to the Angels.

by Stealfirstbase on Sep 25, 2006 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you assuming Thornton will be a Super 2?
I see him at 1 year and 129 days of service entering this season.

by 3E8 on Sep 25, 2006 8:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

hmmm
I'm probably not qualified to answer that question...

I thought he was arb eligible for sure... 2.129 is probably about 10 days too short for that. I think I remember reading that the cut-off for Super Two status was generally about 2.137.

Good for us then.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Sep 25, 2006 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes
Just wanted to make sure I had his service time right.  Super Two is always around 2.135.  It is awarded to the top 17% of players with less service time than three years but more than two.  Guess it could go either way.

by 3E8 on Sep 25, 2006 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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