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Barry Bonds indicted for perjury

The grand jury investigating Bonds came back with charges of perjury and obstruction of justice.
http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/11/15/news/archive/2007/11/15/state/n141013S18.html

Not a great time for Mr. Bonds to become a free agent.  Will any team sign him knowing the 2008 season will be filled with legal filings, courtroom theatrics, and a steady barrage of negative publicity with the words "criminal indictment" repeated over and over?

Star-divide

...on the other hand, maybe he'd be a cheap source of power and OBP.  Until he gets sent to prison during the stretch drive.

I wonder if Magowan had an informed sense this was coming down when he announced the Giants weren't going to bring Bonds back?

SouthSideSox is a community driven site. As such, users are able to express their thoughts and opinions in a FanPost, such as this one, which represents the views of this particular fan, but not necessarily the entire community or SouthSideSox editors.

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I couldn't believe folks were
actually discussing the possibility of signing Bonds BEFORE the indictment.  Hope this quells any further talk, no matter the price.

Hell, he's almost my age and has knees worse than mine.  The Cell fans would rip him a new one or three - not a good time or place to hole up in a Midwestern town.  We're the Great Unwashed, remember?  Ask Toonderstrook, now that he's Golden Gating it.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 15, 2007 5:24 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Our tax dollars hard at work
I guess federal prosecutors have such a light workload they can focus on an athlete taking steroids. Richard Hanssen was investigated for this long. And what did the Feds manage to come up with after four years? Perjury. What a joke.

by HulkSmash on Nov 15, 2007 7:16 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Robert Hanssen?
2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 15, 2007 7:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i'm really confused about this post, too
maybe i'm a legal eagle here but i have serious problems with people lying to grand juries or federal investigators or what have you. not prosecuting people for doing such things seems like it's not a particularly good idea. but to each his own.

by the way, under the terms of the immunity bonds received (just like, i believe, every other athlete asked to testify before the grand jury), the only stuff he could be charged with was perjury, obstruction of justice and the like. this numbnut had no way of getting into trouble for anything he injected/ate/snorted. unless he lied. again, granting immunity to people like bonds - who are in the position to provide evidence against the big guns (in this case, BALCO) - seems like a good idea, too. but to each his own.

by larry on Nov 15, 2007 8:39 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

by the way
i'd think the lesson to take from it taking four years is maybe that they don't have a light workload. maybe this is a surprise to sports fans but bonds isn't necessarily the highest of priorities.

by larry on Nov 15, 2007 8:41 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The sun sets in the west,
and a condescending reply from Larry. I like the egalitarian pose of 'to each their own,' nice touch.  And you managed to mention it twice in one post, no less.

Anyway, I too have a problem with perjury. But, is BALCO on my top priorities for matters to be handled by federal prosecutors? Not really. Is it a story worth the press its getting in mainstream media? I tend to disagree with that as well. I'm not going to get into a political discussion, especially with you Larry, because I can't even imagine what that would entail. Exhaustion is my best outlook.

For my tax paying buck, I'd like to see a lot better things happening with our Justice Department, other than this case. That's my stance, for myriad reasons. I regret broaching a political/legal debate on this site--not to offend anyone here, but it's not the forum.  

by HulkSmash on Nov 15, 2007 9:15 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it amuses me
what people ascribe a condescending tone to. obviously i realize that people - especially those outside the legal community - would not necessarily care much about perjury or immunity (or steroids, for that matter). hence, to each his own.

by larry on Nov 15, 2007 9:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Legally ignorant
What sort of penalty(ies) could charges like this carry for him?  

And given his celebrity status, what is likely to happen?

I understand there's no way to be certain of something like this, just curious about informed opinions and best guesses.

by Hazymania on Nov 16, 2007 12:00 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From what I understand
there aren't many tough charges Bonds can face here. Larry is right when he mentioned that the only thing they could get Bonds on is perjury (my surprise was it taking four years to mount a perjury case). I think a lot depends on the exact substances, and particular FDA regulations, which, as of late, have been a step or two behind. I haven't followed the exact details much, others here may offer more.

 

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 6:18 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It also should be noted
that the details of Bonds' immunity (also mentioned by Larry), prevent other charges Bonds could face, especially when it comes to the illegality of the substances he took.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 6:20 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One more thing...
It also should be understood that if Bonds pleas not guilty, he will be in serious trouble. Federal prosecutors have a 90-some percent indictment conviction rate. And now with Bonds' trainer, Anderson, having likely been flipped, he's pretty much up shit's creek. His best bet will be to take some sort of plea bargain.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 6:28 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re: immunity
I thought he passed on the immunity when he denied ever taking them in '03... or am I getting my stories crossed?

by Hazymania on Nov 16, 2007 12:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

regarding penalties
if convicted, the best case scenario for bonds under these particular charges is probably two or three years in prison. the federal sentencing guidelines are quite tough in regards to perjury and obstruction of justice. now, there can be plea bargaining and such but i don't think the feds would have brought this case if they didn't think it was pretty airtight. the justice department doesn't like to lose the high profile cases (in court or, if there's a plea, in the media). so they're not going to let bonds walk away with a sweetheart deal. even under a plea, these are serious felonies we're talking about here. he's not going to get off lightly. he's going to spend time in federal prison.

by larry on Nov 16, 2007 12:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So no special considerations
for his celebrity?

I only ask because it seems that people in his position get out via some loophole more often then they spend any time incarcerated.

Not trying to be a smartass or anything.  Just thinking this is going to be interesting to follow.

by Hazymania on Nov 16, 2007 12:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No way
Larry is spot on here. Feds wouldn't have made the indictment without an airtight case. I remember the whole Vick case...when it was state charges, I thought, 'well, maybe he has a chance to get off light.' Once the feds step in, I knew his ass was toast. Same goes for Bonds. If the feds are moving forward, you better believe he will face punishment, one way or another.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 12:27 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah
joe sheehan over at BP has an absolutely awful article on this topic. he basically says it's so easy to get a grand jury indictment and it took the feds four years to get one so the feds probably don't have much on him. absolutely ridiculous. that may be the case for joe citizen. but the feds are simply not going to bring an indictment against barry friggin' bonds - who, in addition to being high profile and a potentially embarassing loss for the DOJ, can hire literally the best attorneys in the country to obliterate a less than airtight case and thus unsure that embarassing loss. they wouldn't have sought this indictment if they weren't going to get him.

by larry on Nov 16, 2007 12:42 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right
I was just taking the severity of the crime into account when I asked.  The national climate towards animals is such that Vick never really stood a chance. Any more I'd think the national perspective (or at least those that care enough to have an opinion)would be to see Bonds get punished for something. Be it the illegal use of steroids, perjury, tax evasion, importing illegal immigrants, driving with a suspended license, jaywalking or whatever.

by Hazymania on Nov 16, 2007 12:44 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

frankly
in my experience and understanding, prosecutors - especially federal prosecutors - are more likely to go after and ensure a stiff punishment for high-profile people who commit perjury and obstruction of justice. i can speculate on the reasons for it - draws media attention to the problem of lying/obstructing and is seen as a deterrent and the prosecutors know these people have expensive attorneys who advise them on this issue and thus view their transgressions as especially egregious, are certainly two - but that's what i think.

also, lying to the feds or committing other federal crimes is a bit different than state crimes. some people forget that there are two legal systems in the country - state and federal. the state ones tend to be a little more fuddy-duddy, more likely to cave into political or societal pressure, have generally less resources, less competent attorneys, and so on. and then there's the issue of the "federal sentencing guidelines." judges (and prosecutors recommending to judges sentences after a plea bargain) have far less leeway and discretion in determining the punishment under those. if bonds pleas, he'll still be saying he's guily of some serious crimes. and there are strict minimum sentences for those. if he pleads guilty to any one of those crimes, he's going to spend at least a year in prison.

for comparison's sake, what bonds is accused of (in large measure, lying to a grand jury) is considered more serious than what martha stewart was accused of and she got five months, IIRC.

by larry on Nov 16, 2007 12:37 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As a FINRA arbitrator and old
compliance hound it bugs the poop out of me to hear that "white collar" crime is no biggie.  Isn't that how they got Capone? It's how we seem to be getting to Al Qaida, yes?  Cut off the illegal funding?  Telling the truth in a court of law is the bedrock on which our system of laws resides, right?

Speaking of Capone, is that true re: all Bonds could be indicted for was perjury/obstruction?  Is that why he was not charged with tax evasion for his memorabilia $ he received under the table?  It was a bit surprising he wasn't charged with that, too.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 16, 2007 9:58 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes and I don't think so.
Under the terms of the immunity agreement, if Bonds told the truth re: Balco and all of the creams and clears, he could not be charged in relation to any of those subjects.  He could only be charged for lying to the grand jury and therefore obstructing justice.

As to the other question, I think the immunity Bonds received in connection with his grand jury testimony only applied to the subject matters of the testimony. So if the memorabilia stuff didn't come up (and I can't imagine it would have), it's still fair game.

Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 16, 2007 11:10 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sometimes...
it's not actually condescension so much as a reminder to know what you're talking about before making such strong statements.  Like saying "four years and all they could come up with was perjury?!?!" Well, that's all they could come up with because that was the only remedy available pursuant to the immunity agreement.  

And this isn't so much about Bonds.  Our system of justice works, but only if people tell the truth. And there have to be sticks when you don't tell the truth. Perhaps people will look at Martha Stewart and Barry Bonds and think, OH SHIT...the Feds will come after rich celebrities for lying and obstructing justice, so maybe I ought to tell the truth.

And if the allegations are true, isn't this such typical Bonds hubris?

Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 16, 2007 11:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, Toonder,
I do know what I'm talking about; what you fail to mention is that in the past three years of investigation, no new evidence has presented itself against Bonds. So why the indictment now? )Like I said, odds are is that Anderson has flipped.) Why the need to bring Bonds to 'justice?'  

As for our system of justice working, maybe you need to do some looking around to see how efficient said system really is. My questions raise on how much people are incited over Bonds regarding legal issues, and how many are incited over moral issues. All I keep hearing about is Bonds and his hubris, Bonds is a cheater, Bonds deserves his punishment. But what about Selig, who allowed rampant steroids to infultrate baseball while turning the other cheek, so long as profits were good? Do you thnk that if Selig were invesitaged in the manner in which Bonds was, four years of federal scrutinty and grand jury testimonies, he would walk away clean as the preacher's sheets? Do you really think if the feds wanted Selig, they wouldn't be able to get him under perjury or obstructing of justice charges? People don't want Selig because many want to believe that this steroids issue is a Bonds problem, not a baseball problem.

Bonds is one of hundreds who are all guilty of the exact same thing. Only difference is they didn't break a sacred record, and therefor, for whatever reason, it's unecesssary to hold them up to the same standards, investigation, and scrutiny Bonds has faced.

Am I defending Bonds? No. But keep in mind he was also doing something that at the time was not against the rules of MLB. But then Congress stepped in, where baseball and Selig wouldn't, and suddenly things changed.  

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 11:44 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As for the Marhta
Stewart case...seriously? She got sent to club fed for a short stint, got out, and is thriving now more than ever. Yeah, the legal system  (and our culture) sure showed her. Insider trading must be dramitically decreasing ever since Martha Stewart was taken down.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 11:56 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again...
she did not go to jail for insider trading. She went to jail for lying to the Feds.
Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 16, 2007 12:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is "Marhta" Martha Stewart's
babushka-wearing Polish twin?

Well, by God, they should've dragged her through the streets like Mussolini!  Perhaps they had a very weak-assed case and insider trading is awfully difficult to prove.

Yes, life (and law) are eventually meaningless, in that we all end up dead, so what's the point, eh?  Unless you are Nietzche you realize we have to have a system of laws by the people and for the people and not only abide by them but hold them dear.

Else we have anarchy - like the Web, where even Soulja Boy has a voice!

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 16, 2007 12:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And his dad!
Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 16, 2007 12:07 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're right.
Unless you work in the Justice Department and are familiar with this case, I don't know how you know what evidence there is and when it was discovered and/or corroborated. If you don't work for the government, you're getting your information from Bonds's lawyers, Anderson's lawyers, ESPN, etc.

It wasn't against the rules of baseball. And Bonds and his lawyers knew that going into the grand jury. And although it was still a Federal crime, he had immunity from being charged for it. So why didn't Big Bad Barry Bonds stick it to them and say, yeah, I did, but it wasn't against the rules?

They weren't after Bonds from the beginning...they wanted the Contes and the Andersons and others. But then he lied and obstructed the case.

And the argument that this is all because he broke the record...well, the investigation started LONG before, and Mr. Anderson spent jail time for contempt before he broke the record.

Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 16, 2007 12:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK, it's 10 AM PST, Toonder
What poor wretch (client) are you billing $350/hr. for this fascinating tete-e-tete?
2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 16, 2007 12:08 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Silly WU
YOU ARE. I work for the government now!
Spoken like a true prodigy. How about you, Lash LaRue? You think you can keep your spurs from jinglin' and janglin'?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 16, 2007 12:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, so it's MY tax dollars
that are being farted away, eh?

GET TO WORK!

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 16, 2007 1:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why didn't Bonds say it?
I have no idea. It's like the Dude says, 'it's a complicated case...lots of ins, lots of outs.'

You're right, this has been going on for a long time, but that still doesn't explain why Bonds is the bad guy in all this, and others have gotten a free pass. Should he be punished for perjury? Of course.

And Winning, as for Marhta... she's a women from the old Eastern European bloc I knew some time back. Loooong story.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 12:24 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As for "lots of ins, lots of outs"
do you think Phil Jackson would define this as a "Brokeback Mountain" indictment?

Just askin'.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 16, 2007 1:04 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i understand your point
regarding selig and others who are responsible for the problem. but bonds is different from those hundreds of other players (or at least those others who testified before the grand jury). he lied. we know giambi spilled it to the grand jury. others did, too. maybe it's unfair or something but it's the old rule: you don't get in trouble for the crime, you get in trouble for the cover-up.

and whether congress or whoever stepped in or not, i'm fairly certain the DOJ would still be charging bonds. the feds don't take kindly to lies, whether they're a news item du jour or not.

by larry on Nov 16, 2007 3:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That, Larry,
is a distinction I hadn't considered. Good point.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 5:44 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

now
if you want to point to a possible double-standard, you can look to raffy. it looks like he may have lied to congress.

i can tell you the salient differences: primarily congress doesn't generally care too much when people lie to them about not really all that important stuff (which this was) and congress would need to refer such an investigation to the DOJ (i think that's the procedure) and they obviously haven't done that; also, the question of proof of such lying is probably far more difficult to prove up. the DOJ had pretty ready access to evidence from the balco investigation that bonds was probably lying. with raffy, it would be a pretty big undertaking to start an investigation into whether he took steroids and do all that legwork - and one that would likely be pretty flimsy or wholly without merit. probably another reason congress isn't interested in pursuing it.

you don't have to buy these differences; however, i have no doubt that if raffy or any other witness in balco (and i think there have been other witnesses charged with obstruction, certainly with contempt) had lied to the grand jury, they'd be facing the same consequences as bonds. it was just a really arrogant and stupid thing to do. i mean, everyone "knew" he was using. and it wasn't against the rules in baseball. and he had immunity. there would have been some media outcry but, really, would it have been much different than it was? absolutely ridiculous.

by larry on Nov 16, 2007 6:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, that sounds right....
like we were discussing in a different thread, federal prosecutors don't move forward (especially on such high profile cases) unless what they have is air tight. Raffy would be well beyond air tight, it would seem, and probably not worth the time and effort. The big fish here, as I understand it, is BALCO and the likes.

As for Bonds lying to the grand jury: just plain dumb. I'm curious, though, what information other players gave up. Maybe as these proceedings get rolling, some of the information will come to light, but that's doubtful.

by HulkSmash on Nov 16, 2007 9:21 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Palmeiro
Congress did look into a perjury charge, but decided against it.  Part of the problem is that he tested positive well after the testimony, so you couldn't prove from the test that he was lying at the time he testified.  (The testimony was mid-March and the test was early May, iirc.)

by jackie hayes on Nov 17, 2007 11:22 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

true
but i think we all suspect that palmeiro was using long before that. it's not like testifying before congress about steroids gave him the idea or something - there's a reason he was asked to be there in the first place.

by larry on Nov 17, 2007 11:25 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No doubt
I just meant that for all we know they had basically zero evidence.  We can't conclude that there was a double standard, then.  Congress didn't go after Raffy for the same reason the BALCO prosecutors haven't gone after Sheffield (yet, anyway) -- not enough documentation.  That's all I'm saying.  I have no doubt Palmeiro perjured himself, but it probably can't be proved.

by jackie hayes on Nov 17, 2007 8:26 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

for anyone who still cares
this is an extremely lucid, complete, and enlightening explanation of just about everything to do with this indictment and it's effect on bonds. bravo to HBT (and boos to BP) for posting something like that that cuts through the bullshit, posturing, and media hysteria.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/barry-bonds-a-guide-to-help-you-cut-through-the-noise/

by larry on Nov 21, 2007 2:30 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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