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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

The OC is a South Sider

Following the 2004 season, back before this place existed, I took part in a series of heated discussions about whether the White Sox should pursue Orlando Cabrera. I was adamantly against it, as the Sox had Juan Uribe, who I felt was every bit the defender as Cabrera and was coming off an .830 OPS season at age 25.

I was right. The Sox didn't have the money to spend $9MM per annum on what was then a similar (perhaps inferior) player. And with the money saved, plus the added flexibility from the Carlos Lee trade, Kenny Williams was able to fill multiple holes to patch together a World Championship club, of which Juan Uribe was key member.

Three years later, however, Uribe has gone south while his waistline expanded, and Cabrera has become one of those players you hate to on the other side of the field. His defense, which seems to grade out as average to above average by most metrics, but well above average by fans and awards voters, remains an asset while his bat is (now) a definite upgrade from Uribe's.

* * * * *

As for the trade itself, I'm sure there are many of you who are upset that the Sox didn't get any youth in this deal; or the return doesn't knock your Sox off.

Kenny had obviously discussed trading Garland or Contreras for Edgar Renteria and a package built around Garland for Bill Hall, both of whom would have been bigger upgrades than Cabrera. That he was unable to complete either of those deals should indicate what Jon Garland was worth to other teams. This is it. This is the best package he could get in return.

The real value in the package may lie in Cabrera and Garland's respective Elias Rankings in one years time. Garland will need to match (or even better) his 2005 season to climb to Type A status while Cabrera, a Type A this off-season, needs to maintain a similar production to his last two years to remain a Type A. As I outlined in my off-season plan, with teams currently holding tightly to their young talent, the best way to rebuild this Sox team is to employ an NBA-like strategy of aquiring expiring contracts of likely Type-A free agents.

Digging a little deeper, the deal appears to be Jon Garland for Orlando Cabrera, $4.5MM in added payroll flexibility, and (as long as Cabrera stays healthy) an extra 2009 draft pick (between 16-75). That's not a bad little haul in what originally looks like a 1-for-1 swap.

* * * * *

As for what the move means for the 2008 team, I'm unsure. No single move can be evaluated in a vaccuum, and Williams can still go in a number of different directions.

The biggest question is now what does he do with Juan Uribe and his $4.5MM contract. I would not be opposed to him sticking around to be the primary backup at 2B, SS, and 3B. Paired with Ozuna, who himself carries a $1MM contract, the Sox would have their infield covered dispatching of Alex Cintron and Andy Gonzalez. $5.5MM may seem like a steep price for a couple of backups, but it shouldn't be a problem for a team which projects to have a $110+MM payroll, and isn't much different than the money they handed to Mackowiak and Cintron in '07.

I'm unenthusiastic about the return of Jose Contreras, but there was not going to be a market for his services. His signing should serve as a reminder as to what happens when signing an over 30 pitcher with a declining strikeout rate.

A rotation of Vazquez, Buehrle, Contreras and two of Danks/Floyd/Gio/Egbert/Broadway probably negates any upgrade the Sox have made at SS, but the added payroll flexibility, probable extra draft pick, and the return from a possible Uribe trade make this an overall win for the Sox. Plus there are still moves to be made, as Kenny Williams hinted to in his statement following the trade.

"It's no secret we're after some of the best talent in the market," Williams said. "We're not done yet. We're still out there trying to land some big fish. "We're 100 percent committed to winning a championship in '08. Last season does not sit well with any of us and we'll be damned if we're going through that again. This is just a start, and hopefully very quickly some other things will start to happen."

From the Angels persective, adding Garland to an already deep starting staff may allow them to trade some of their young arms for Miguel Cabrera, which would obviously be a big win for them.

Randomness

  • Among active players with at least 25 PA against Jon Garland, Orlando Cabrera trails only Manny Ramirez in OPS. That doesn't include Cabrera's 2-run HR off Garland in game 3 of the '05 ALCS.
  • I really had to resist the urge to fill this entry with cliches such as "he's a tough out" and "adept handler of the bat," but the Cabrera of the last two seasons has been just that every time I've seen him play. He's a player I've really grown to appreciate over the past couple of seasons. (Thanks, Uribe.)
  • Cabrera doesn't see a lot of pitches, just 3.39 per PA last season and 3.50 for his career, but he makes excellent contact (makes contact on 86% of his swings). He seems to like the ball in off the plate yet has the ability to push the ball off the outside corner into right field. (I'm sure Walker can fix that pesky habit.)
  • Cabrera will apparently bat second in the Sox lineup, with which I surprisingly have no problem. That's probably where I'd bat him, in part because of the screwy Elias Rankings which rank plate appearances and batting average as heavily as home runs and OBP.

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nicely said
can kenny still trade javy to the mets for lastings and a pitching prospect? I think so, what do you guys think?

I think 8 out of their Top 10 prospects in BA's list were pitchers...

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 4:44 PM CST reply actions  

'08
If Kenny is serious about winning in 2008 (can he really be?!?), he can't trade Javy for Milledge.

The free agent market for starters is down, and you'd be left with a rotation of Buehrle, Contreras, Danks, Floyd, Gio/Broadway/whoever you can get off the heap in the free agent market.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, KW is really towing the 2008
world series campaign. How's that gonna look with a rotation of Buerhle, Count, Danks, Floyd and Gio/Egbert? I like the young guys, but with the pen still up in the air, that simply isn't a postseason caliber staff.

by HulkSmash on Nov 19, 2007 4:55 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you're
going to see a strong push for Bart Colon.

by dantesox on Nov 19, 2007 7:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Minaya
will probably be hesitant to trade pitching prospects after the Scott Kazmir trade.

If you don't remember, it was Kazmir and Joselo Diaz for Victor Zambrano and Bartoleme Fortunato. OUCH!

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 4:52 PM CST reply actions  

but he needs starters
here's the list I mentioned above

anyway, the one I really want is lastings

is there any way he does jose + something for lastings alone?

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Kazmir?
What does that have to do with Minaya?  He didn't make that trade, Duquette did.  

by coffeepac on Nov 19, 2007 5:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I know...
He didn't make that trade, but that doesn't mean the NY media and fans forgot.  Every move he makes with young players will always be compared and contrasted with that trade.

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 9:00 PM CST up reply actions  

What are the chances
that Andruw Jones 1. signs a 1 year contract and 2. we sign him for that year, coming off his crappy year?

by ballyb on Nov 19, 2007 4:55 PM CST reply actions  

hunter deal close
suntimes is reporting deal could be announced this week.  

by rspata on Nov 19, 2007 5:31 PM CST reply actions  

ugh
I'd rather have Jones still but the Boras client will make sure that doesn't happen.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Nov 19, 2007 6:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Thx, Cheat...
well worth the wait for a well-reasoned analysis of the deal.
I too believe Kenny GM isn't done yet, and if Cowley is touting a Hunter signing I'm encouraged: he's likely wrong.  Just closing his eyes and throwing darts, likely to hit a bullseye and hope nobody was counting the misses.  After all, he nailed this trade, right?
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 5:56 PM CST reply actions  

one more thought
could this mean a committment to Richar or Fields or both?  That Cabrera's (perceived) defense would cover more rookie mistakes than T-Boat's?
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 6:02 PM CST reply actions  

Thoughts
I saw Jon Garland traded and I was really excited.  I clicked on the link and I wasn't blown away but I'm not upset either.  Obviously I was hoping for some youth (or Bill Hall), but I'm fine with the savings, Cabrera and the possible draft pick.  If Crede is traded, Uribe might be worth holding onto as a defensive replacement at 3rd for Fields.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Nov 19, 2007 6:08 PM CST reply actions  

more thoughts
Rationally I don't like going for it in 08, but as a fan ...it could be a pretty incredible lineup this year.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Nov 19, 2007 6:24 PM CST reply actions  

Rule 5 draft
mg:
Tuesday marks the deadline for teams to set their 40-man rosters.
...
For the Sox, pitchers Jack Egbert, Adam Russell and Fernando Hernandez must be placed on the 40-man roster or risk being lost in the Rule 5 draft.

by The Wizard on Nov 19, 2007 6:43 PM CST reply actions  

Useless weight still on the 40-man
Heath Phillips
Alex Cintron
Alex Gonzalez

Removing those three would put the Sox at 34 on the 40-man.  I'd be rather dissappointed if Bourgeous is lost because they refuse to remove one of the above three.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Well said Cheat
Another reason I like this trade: By acquiring Cabrera we add a speedy, contact SS with good fundamentals to the top of our order, which was missing a lot of all three last season. The top of our order is instantly better and we should score more runs as a result. Maybe fewer solo Thomers?!

We also dumped Garland's ass and his salary and gives us flexibility with our rotation next spring. (Who here thinks Gio/Egbert/Broadway, field can't put up Garland like numbers???)

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 19, 2007 6:45 PM CST reply actions  

Me, for one
I highly doubt any of those you mentioned will touch Garland's reliable 200 innings of a 4.25-4.50 ERA.

by CWSKeith on Nov 19, 2007 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Seconded.
What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 6:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Thirded.
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 19, 2007 7:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I will admit
that Garland did improve a bit in the last month of last year... but he admitted he had a cranky shoulder and it would probably be like that forever. Doesn't sound good to me. Yes, Garland was reliable and had a relatively rubber arm, but his stuff was incredibly unimpressive on a lot of days.

No, I don't expect Gio, Egbert, and Broadway (especially the latter) to put up a 4.25 ERA next season but I do expect them to be close after another year in the bigs. IMO, with one of those 3 replacing Garland, and OC replacing Uribe, we come out ahead.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 20, 2007 7:36 AM CST up reply actions  

How about adding the better Cabrera?
"Sources: Dodgers lead race for Cabrera"
The White Sox also remain in the mix for Miguel Cabrera, but probably can not offer the same quality of prospects as the Dodgers and Angels. The Marlins likely would demand the cream of the White Sox's system -- third baseman Josh Fields, outfielder Ryan Sweeney and left-hander Gio Gonzalez.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 7:52 PM CST reply actions  

Wow, this guy fell hard...
Rangers designated outfielder Victor Diaz for assignment.
Diaz, 25, hit nine homers in just 104 at-bats for Texas last season, though that came with a 33/1 K/BB ratio and a .259 OBP. That he has 30-homer upside is undeniable. However, the lack of on-base skills and poor defense in the outfield made him expendable. If he doesn't improve next year, it will be time for him to begin weighing Japan as an option.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 8:05 PM CST reply actions  

The whole picture is really
coming into focus, Sox friends. If indeed Mr. Hunter is signed, which I'm not thrilled with assuming it's at minimum 5/75, Kenny is basically doing what I thought he'd do and really almost has to do as the GM of the 2007 White Sox...basically build through free agency and trades without dealing from the talent we do have in the minors AND not give anymore three-plus year contracts to guys over 30....he will violate that with Hunter. Hopefully, he'll get a reliever out of free agency and another out of atrade of some combo of Uribe, Crede.....etc. I think Owens will be in left and leading off I say with a big sigh. And I think you're gonna see a play for big Bart Colon. I would like to see Uribe stay as well.

by dantesox on Nov 19, 2007 8:13 PM CST reply actions  

Uribe...
The only reason I could see wanting him around is if Richar proves to be a bust.  But even if Richar is a bust, Uribe's .675 - .700 OPS won't be much, if any, better.  Basically, I don't see any advantage to keeping Uribe and his $4.5 million dollar salary around.  The Cardinals need a shortstop.

Besides, if the choice is truly Jerry Owens in LF I think I would rather use some of that $4.5 million of Uribe's salary and sign a cheap LF'er like Shannon Stewart to lead off.  If we are going old and expensive, we may as well improve on Jerry Owens.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 9:08 PM CST up reply actions  

He's
great and NEEDED insurance for Richar, plus a backup at short and third. I said it before....Uribe's gonna go 260/320/450 this year.

by dantesox on Nov 19, 2007 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Do people forget...
that Juan Uribe has posted OPS's of .713, .698, and .678 the last three seasons?  How is that a good insurance plan for Richar?  That is Neifi Perez territory.  If Richar is worse than Uribe offensively at 2B, then we are screwed either way.  Only Hawk and DJ still think that Uribe is going to "get hot and carry this team" by posting a .260/.320/.450/.770 line next season.  Uribe hasn't been that kind of hitter since post-All Star break in 2005.

Keep dreaming, Hawk.  The guy is a hacktastic Tasmanian Devil who swings for the "¡PROFUNDO!" each and every at bat.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 10:31 PM CST up reply actions  

If........
we sign Hunter (or Jones or Rowand), then who would be a leadoff/LF target in a Crede trade?

by BoKnows on Nov 19, 2007 9:20 PM CST reply actions  

Crede isn't going to net a LF'er...
who is any good in a trade.  If Kenny trades Crede, it will probably be for a reliever or some scrub prospect(s).

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 10:22 PM CST up reply actions  

So we net $4.5 million in the trade...
[(Garland's $12 million - Cabrera's $9 million) + Angels' $1.5 million] = $4.5 million

Now dump Uribe's $4.5 million on the Cardinals (who need a SS) and Kenny has $9 million to spend.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 10:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, it looks like Rosenthal already...
covered it in his article (maybe I should try reading).  Rosenthal also mentions that by trading Crede, the White Sox would clear up another $5 million in payroll.  It sure does sound like Kenny is making room for Torii Hunter.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 10:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Rotoworld knows what's up...
"Report: White Sox, Hunter working toward deal"

Sources both in the White Sox organization and Torii Hunter's camp have told the Chicago Sun-Times that the two sides could agree to a contract within the week.
It's the type of addition that would put the White Sox back into the mix in the AL Central next year, but it'd also be a long-term deal for a player about to turn 33. Orlando Cabrera is 33, Jermaine Dye turns 34 in January, Paul Konerko turns 32 in March and Jim Thome is 37, giving the White Sox an old offensive nucleus.     Nov. 19 - 11:15 pm et

Source:  Chicago Sun-Times

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 10:46 PM CST reply actions  

I got this quote from SoxTalk...
Levineline is on ESPN 1000 and says his sources say the Sox are far and away the leaders for Hunter and he might be signed by Thanksgiving....

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I didn't listen to all of the audio Wiz linked
but I heard KW on Comcast say that they intend to get straight to work on an extension for the OC, which would give the Sox another declining 30+ year old on the 2010 team.

I can see how they can put a good offense on the field next year, but the medium-term future looks really ugly.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 19, 2007 11:08 PM CST reply actions  

Also
He said "we could have traded Garland for 'a couple of prospects' but they wouldn't help us win a championship in 2008, which is what we're trying to do."

Apparently, we're counting on Armageddon in 2009.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 19, 2007 11:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Let the speculation begin...
Not knowing who those prospects were kind of sucks but we may be better off not knowing.  We might be really pissed right now if Kenny passed up on some quality guys.

by SSH2005 on Nov 19, 2007 11:26 PM CST up reply actions  

So the posts
about Cabrera obviously being all Kenny could get for Garland are out the window.

Can anyone explain guess what has to happen the remainder of the offseason for the Sox to have any chance to be a playoff contender in 2008?

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 19, 2007 11:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Truthfully they're not far
from being a contender...
  • Drop Uribe and Crede for bullpen pieces [Use the Towers method of bullpen acquisition] (and/or a LFer)
  • Add Hunter and Fukudome.
  • Sign the japanese reliever they're after.
The weakness is then the rotation with 3 question marks. They'd have to sign another worthwhile pitcher, of which there are none on the open market, to truly start to make the Indians and Tigers sweat. A 1-year flyer on Colon might be the best bet, followed by a 2-year offer to Garcia, with the hopes that he can pitch (well) in the second half of '08. Either that or Contreras and/or one of Danks/Floyd/Gio/Broadway/Egbert gives us 200 innings of sub-4.00 ERA.

The problem is, what the heck will the team look like in 2010? What happens when the same team is coming back a year older and an year less potent in 2009?

Here's an idea of what it will probably look like very soon...

Pos   Name                   2008     2009     2010    2011
P Buehrle, Mark $14.00 $14.00 $14.00 $14.00
SS Cabrera, Orlando $9.00 $8.00 $8.00 $8.00
P Contreras, Jose $10.00 $10.00
OF Dye, Jermaine $9.50 $11.50 $1.00
OF Erstad, Darin $0.25
C Hall, Toby $1.75 $0.15*
CF Hunter, Torii $14.00 $14.00 $14.00 $14.00
1B Konerko, Paul $12.00 $12.00 $12.00
P MacDougal, Mike $1.95 $2.65 $0.35*
UTL Ozuna, Pablo $1.05 $0.20*
C Pierzynski, A.J. $5.85 $6.25 $6.25
1B Thome, Jim $14.00 $3.00
P Thornton, Matt $0.875 $1.325 $0.25*
P Vazquez, Javier $11.50 $11.50 $11.50
====================
$105.725 $94.575 $67.35 $36.00
====================
Cash (Thome) ($5.00)
Cash (OC) ($1.50)
====================
$99.225 $94.575 $67.35 $36.00
Shield your eyes. Do not stare directly at the '09-'10 rosters. You could sustain permanent damage.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 20, 2007 12:25 AM CST up reply actions  

The Uribe and Crede for relievers trade idea...
makes too much sense for Kenny not to do it.  He can try to dump up to $9.5 million in salary and add what his team desperately needs (bullpen help).  I hate to break out an old stupid cliche but it would be like killing two birds with one stone.

Cheat, would the Cardinals give up a reliever like righty Brad Thompson for Uribe to fill their need at SS?

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 12:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I have no feel for the Cards
with the new ownership... That you keep suggesting a deal to the cards probably doesn't bode well for it's likelihood.

I can't really see Uribe bringing back anything of value, even with the Sox throwing in some cash. I think there's a better chance of him remaining with the Sox than finding a suitable trade partner.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 20, 2007 12:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I guess I just figured that the Cardinals need...
a SS.  Otherwise, they have to stick Aaron Miles out of position at SS or try Brendan Ryan there.  But the Cardinals don't like to spend much money so the Sox would probably have to throw some cash in the deal for it to work.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 12:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, we still don't know who the prospects were..
To be fair, maybe we WOULD rather have Orlando Cabrera than the two prospects.  We just don't know.

Anyways, for the Sox to contend in 2008...

1.)  The Sox are apparently set to sign Torii Hunter.  This fills our CF void even if Hunter will likely be overpaid and unproductive in the second half of the contract.

2.)  The Sox seem like they want to trade Crede to stick Fields at 3B.  We would still need to acquire an outfielder via free agency or trade to stick out in LF.  Sorry, but Jerry Owens just doesn't do it for me.

3.)  The Sox would also need to acquire another starter -- Buehrle and Vazquez is a nice 1-2 but Contreras, Danks, and Floyd is pretty scary.  Some posters here have mentioned Fatolo Colon as an option.  I have my doubts on Colon staying healthy for an entire season but if he did, he would make an excellent #3 starter.

4.)  Finally, Kenny needs to add two more relievers.  So far, we have heard about Sox interest in Japanese reliever Yasuhiko Yabuta.  Yabuta, along with one more reliever, would do the trick.

Bringing back Jason Bourgeois in a utility bench role would be a smart idea but it wouldn't be a make or break move.

So IMO, that's five new acquisitions that Kenny needs to make for the White Sox to be a contender.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 12:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Am I crazy or am I the only one
Who likes the prospects of Floyd next year? He is the one I think is most likely to step up.

At this point I think I would like to see Crede stay his final year. Any hope they Sox reconsider and stick Fields back in left for a year? Hell Miggy did it.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 20, 2007 12:45 AM CST reply actions  

One of
Contreras/Danks/Floyd is likely to give the Sox 180+ innings of 4.25 ERA -- I just couldn't tell you which one -- And that still leaves two big holes.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 20, 2007 12:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Floyd's last six starts of the season were nice...
but it's still only six starts.  Since I expect Floyd to be in the rotation (no options left), he NEEDS to have a good season for us to be any good.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 12:54 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't.
He doesn't do anything well enough to consistently get hitters out.  He needs a cutter or he's a bullpen pitcher, imo.  Some good outings against the Tigers doesn't change that.
OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

so floyd needs a fifth pitch?
i don't think so. he just started throwing the slider this year so that will get better. "consistently" is obviously a watchword but i suppose that is a problem with him. i don't think it's solved, though, by adding yet another pitch. that would probably serve to make things worse.

i am encouraged by his late season outings to a degree because i think his success may stem from the addition of the slider, which makes his fastball (the pitch that, in my opinion, really hurt him early on) a bit less easy for a hitter to sit on because it looked to me (and this is not from hitter's view, but the TV perspective) that he was throwing it with the same motion as his fastball. basically that - coupled with what i viewed as better and more "consistent" (there it is again) mechanics - made it that much harder for a hitter to pick up what pitch he was throwing. i remember commenting earlier in the year about floyd that i could tell what pitch he was throwing (again, from the tv perspective) what he was throwing before he even released the ball - i wasn't able to do that as "consistently" late in the season.

obviously it's just a small sample size. but i am somewhat confident - certainly moreso than i was in the middle of the year - that gavin can pitch respectably, i.e. like a 4.

by larry on Nov 20, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

making the cutter sound as valuable as his
other lesser offerings is misleading.  the cutter is great because it can induce groundballs, something Floyd needs to do with more regularity to get peripherals that suggest the possibility of success to me.  and coop has taught it with success before.

i didn't know that he had a slider, let alone learned it somewhat recently.  not sure where you got that info, and i'm surprised i didn't hear it/read it in the game threads or something. i did miss his later starts because of school, during which time he threw up a 3.12 ERA, 7.3 K/9, 2.3 BB/9 and, perhaps most importantly, .87 HR/9.  A stat line like that says Number 2, but I would really want to compare what he was doing on one side versus the other.

what did he do in those 5 starts to ditch perhaps the one thing that's holding him back from being a #4?  was he generating more groundballs?

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 5:12 PM CST up reply actions  

where i got it?
straight from the horse's mouth. i imagine you could google "slider"/"repertoire" and "gavin floyd" if you want some independent confirmation.

i already told you what he was doing - his mechanics were far superior. he was repeating his delivery and, in my opinion, not tipping his pitches. guys weren't able to recognize his pitches - especially that fastball - as quickly and his better mechanics ensured that he wasn't hanging his curve. thus, more strikeouts, less contact, less good contact, so on.

by larry on Nov 20, 2007 5:23 PM CST up reply actions  

ok so the tigers announcing team
didn't know he had a slider as of 9/5, so I'm forgiven for not knowing he had a slider, since I didn't watch any of his September starts.  I'm serious, you're the first one that's brought up the slider as a difference maker as far as I know and I'm pretty sure I was reading the game threads every day.

As to your bits.  First, it's hardly like he had 4 pitches when he came up.  He was curveball-fastball,  and anything else he threw was rare/bad.  For him to add a cutter would have been basically a third.  Even as of his last start, he was barely throwing the change.  So 5 pitches it's not.

But, I watched all of his 9/5 start, and 2/3 or so of the 9/29 and 7/24 starts.  And: the slider is a huge difference.  It's a good pitch (I don't know what average vs. plus vs. plus-plus would be), which reinforces his confidence in it and it plays well off his fastball.  In the 9/5 start, he was getting a ton of swingnmisses from it and really threw off all of their batters who were clearly sitting fastball.  I didn't really see any tipping, but I did see that his fastball is exceptionally straight and he throws very over the top.  In other words, he's already throwing a cutter.  He's getting like 0 tilt on it (the ball probably spins at or very near 90 degrees), and it's really easy to stay with as a result.  It contrasts obviously with the curve, which spins in the exact opposite direction and is slow instead of fast.  The slider, instead, is masked by the lack of tilt on the fastball thanks to its own cutting action.  Because it's faster and more difficult to recognize, it's set up really well by his fastball.

It was really obvious, imo, that Coop had been working with him.  He dropped the overhead arm swing to start the delivery.  The number of pitches he lost to mechanical failure (I swear, a pitch per batter in the 7/24 game...so bad) went  down, though he's still got problems with it.  He was even using the change a little more frequently by the 9/29 start.  Coop's trying to change him into a legit 4 pitch pitcher with command and the results are pretty obvious when you watch.

If he's showing the command of the slider next year, he can be effective and may be the 4.25 ERA Cheat was talking about.  He was even more than that for his last five starts, getting into 1-2 range with that 3.12 ERA.

OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 8:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha, Kenny called Cabrera...
"a grinder-type player" in his interview about the trade.  You know he had to do it.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 1:18 AM CST reply actions  

The idea for competing next year makes sense
Given that Thome, Konerko, Dye, AJ are all getting older and the clock is ticking on them.

But I have to say that 2010 looks kinda bleak. 2009 is a "eh... maybe" for me right now, but 2010 doesn't look good.

I like that Kenny is trying to compete next year instead of stock piling more prospects for 2009, 2010 seasons that may or may not pan out. Consider that Thome will likely be reduced to spending most of his days on the DL, Konerko will probably keep sucking like he did last year, and Dye will be in a wheelchair. To my knowledge, the Sox don't really have any good 1B prospects. AJ sure as heck isn't getting any younger either.

Just saying... I like the idea of competing next year. Makes a lot more sense than trying to compete in 2009, 2010 when our offensive core is even older and slower.

That we could've gotten more short term for Jon Garland I don't know. OC looks pretty decent to me.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 20, 2007 7:31 AM CST reply actions  

Who knows about 2010
Who knows what the team will be like in 2010? Maybe you trade some of the veterans (Konerko, Dye) next year for prospects? Hopefully some draft picks develop. I wouldn't necessarily say that we're doomed long-term. Way, way too early to be predicting that.

Since it appears unlikely that Williams will bring in a LF'r, maybe it's not the worst idea to give the job to Owens first. Perhaps they can get him to drag bunt every other at bat. If he falters plug in Posednick (4th outfielder) and see if he can't regain the '05 magic. And if both fail (probably about a 50% chance), then you MUST make a deadline trade for a leadoff hitter, assuming the team is still in it.

While I'd rather see the Sox sign Fukudome, we aren't the Yankees and signing someone like Hunter caps the big spending.

by rhombusface on Nov 20, 2007 9:36 AM CST reply actions  

Losing Patience Quickly with KW
I've about had it with KW running this organization.  Why are the Sox trading for a 32 year old SS with a career OPS+ of 86.  And he's on a one year deal! Why trade Garland now?  It's not like this team is one player or two away from contending.  It would have been much better to hold onto Garland until the trading deadline when the market would have been much stronger.

The only way this deal somehow comes close to being good value for the Sox is if Cabrera is deemed a class "A" FA and the Sox get the sandwich pick.  So possibly in two years the Sox get a prospect.  

Hurray!  Whoopteedohurray!

I've come around to the fact that Uribe will never become even a homeless man's Tejada, but you don't trade a league average innings eater to upgrade SS from a 670 OPS to a 710 OPS.  Especially, especially, and I cannot emphasize this enough: especially when this team desperately needs young position players NOW.  Not in two years, but now.

I'm about sick of being a White Sox fan.  I guess I'm just becoming a baseball fan these days.  At least until the Sox show me something worth cheering for, not this aging garbage team meandering around .500 (if lucky) with no future.

by madvillian on Nov 20, 2007 10:08 AM CST reply actions  

We just made sure the one guy we hate
to watch play baseball doesn't have to for us next year.  Checking out Halos Haven or whatever the hell the SBN Angels blog is, they all valued him a lot higher than his actual worth because he's fun to watch.  He's a good defender and one of the best baserunners in the game.  In other words, the sort of guy who's better than his stats.  He'll manage an average OBP or thereabouts and we won't cry about Uribe.  He could have a shitty BABIP year and screw us, but we'll still probably get a better OBP out of it.
OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

If this happens, then this trade looks awful...
Can anyone confirm this and post the projections?

From Rob Neyer:

Meanwhile, Cabrera probably will never again play as well as he did last season. He was 32, and it was his best season wince 2003. He won the Gold Glove this year, but didn't deserve it. He's solid with the glove, but probably no better than Uribe. Yes, he's the better hitter. But he's not that much better. In fact, the projections in the 2008 Bill James Handbook predict that Uribe will actually out-hit Cabrera next season.

by BoKnows on Nov 20, 2007 10:09 AM CST reply actions  

If that happens,
Bill James is one smart MF.

by ballyb on Nov 20, 2007 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Does that take into account
the ballparks in whcih they will now be playing?

by palehose67 on Nov 20, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Probably not...
Since the handbook came out a few weeks ago.

by BoKnows on Nov 20, 2007 10:25 AM CST up reply actions  

BJH Projections
Cabrera '08 projection: .273/.326/.383/.709 with 17 steals.

For comparison's sake, Eckstein's '08 projection: .290/.352/.359/.711 with 11 steals.

I also noticed this morning that Eckstein has a career OPS+ of 89 to Cabrera's 86.

HOWEVER, Cabrera is one of the best baserunners in baseball (tied for 10th overall at +38); Eckstein not nearly as good (+8). And obviously the glove is better.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Uribe '08 projection
.246/.294/.429/.723

And in the Fielding Bible Awards, Cabrera finished 11th at SS; Uribe nowhere to be found.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

What the hell
is Neyer talking about then?

by BoKnows on Nov 20, 2007 11:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Neyer was the same fool
That said he didnt like the white sox because of their uniforms.  Take his lunacy for what its worth.

by southsideirish71 on Nov 20, 2007 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

rob neyer should be smarter than this
we're talking about a player who has basically zero VORP for the past three seasons. i'm having a real hard time buying that uribe is going to outhit cabrera next year, even assuming cabrera regresses a bit.

by larry on Nov 20, 2007 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Some more info on Uribe's D.
Rob is going off of what he remembers as it relates to D. Uribe was a great defender in the past, but that changed this year and Rob didn't bother to check.

Uribe has definitely lost a step as his girth has continued to increase. Fan's ratings, UZR and PMR all concur with that. Both PMR (Uribe -8, Cabrera +4) and UZR (Cabrera +6, Uribe something less than that) have Cabrera as the better fielder this past year. B pro has Cabrera at 0 BRAA and Uribe at -23. The total win difference is probably 2-3 wins even accounting for age related decline from O-cab. This is a pretty big improvement.

By the way Eckstein is worse than either of them (-10, -14, -9 runs by UZR, Fielding bible and PMR respectively).

by bhoov on Nov 20, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Rob Neyer is a douchebag
There, I said it.  And I've said it before.  IMO he tends to stick it to the Sox whenever he can - I think he's still smarting from being wrong, wrong, wrong about the '05 team, when he said there was no way we could keep up our winning ways, that all his metrics said we'd come back to earth after our hot start, etc.

He may be a good writer and a very knowledgeable guy generally but this statement about Cabrera and Uribe is horseshit.  Someone archive this and sti ck it in my face a year from now if I'm wrong, but this proclimation looks like a big reach for Mr. Neyer.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Weren't we going on
about something this assclown said like a week or two ago? That's just a plain idiotic, snap assumption that makes little sense. Just east coast nonsense from ESPN. If Cabrera were traded to the beloved Sawks, Neyer would be going apeshit about his much needed glove and upgrade over Lugo. Whatever Neyer.

by HulkSmash on Nov 20, 2007 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Assclown - great, underused slam.
It is now on my radar for use.  Thank you, Hulkster.
2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

He's a Royals fan, what do you expect
I seem to recall that he is hit and miss as far as his assessments. It seemed to me that he held Beane up as a God among men, and any time I see that kind of hero worship, I approach with caution.

I also have a personal axe to grind with him because he was one of the first to have his column switch to ESPN Insider only territory (may or may not have been by choice), so F*&# him and F%$* ESPN if they think I'm paying one red cent to that abomination of a network / website.

And no, I do not have cable or a dish, so I'm not half the hypocrite I am assuming that you are assuming I am ;)

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 20, 2007 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

l like Neyer
But this is just dumb.
"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 20, 2007 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Uribe for Howell
fits the Towers plan for building a bullpen...
1.  Look for failing starters in other organizations, especially strike-throwers.
  1. Don't just drop somebody into the eighth inning
  2. Look for pitchers with deception in their delivery or repertoire
  3. Stay away from the top end of the reliever free-agent market
  • Failing starter? Check. 33 starts, 6.5 ERA. Strike thrower, Check. Or he looks to be developing the ability to throw strikes more regularly. 145/34 K/BB in 128 AAA innings last year.
  • No prob. We've got MacDougal and Thornton to blow the 8th inning
  • As I recall, Howell is a change-up pitcher. No funky delivery, but he definitely uses deception.
  • does not apply...
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 20, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL on #2
2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

It would be a nice little trade...
getting any arm along with dumping $4.5 million in salary would be nice.  Howell is still young and he's a lefty.

I was wondering if Kenny would ever go after a guy like Elijah Dukes.  He would look nice in LF.  I guess Rocco Baldelli may actually be more realistic.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

No, and NO!
Dukes should not even come up - he's a train wreck.  And Baldelli is Samuel Jackson in "Unbreakable" - glass, man.  He's more talented than anyone we have but would play as often as Erstad/Pods because of his nagging, incessant propensity for getting injured.

No, thanks.  Why do you think Crawford's practically untouchable?  Because they can't count on either Baldelli or Dukes.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Dukes would be worth a gamble...
...a big gamble yes, but he's got a huge upside. I agree I'd like to see him in left field. Ozzie and Jermaine could try to keep him out of trouble. What about Uribe and Brian Anderson for Dukes? If Dukes ends up in jail, what did we really lose?

by Serpiente on Nov 20, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I like winning...
A LOT (see below), but I can't imagine being able to root for Elijah Dukes. He is a bad bad person.
What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Both Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle...
were womanizing drunks who probably played drunk and hungover.  I wouldn't want either of them on my team either.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't recall hearing about either of them
threatening to kill their wife (or girlfriend, mistress, one night stand) and children. Do you?
What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Not a moralizer, I
but he's not a quality person, and the risk/reward isn't low enough.  These problems will be a ball and chain forever for him.  Really.  (How's Pokey Reese these days?  And he didn't have the law to worry about - he just kept fathering kids.)  The financial and parental responsibilities weigh after awhile, and the poor judgment translates to the rest of one's life inevitably.

Give it up, SSH.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 2:46 PM CST up reply actions  

The Sox can't afford to be picky...
Our future looks bleak with a lack of young position prospects.  The Sox need to buy low on talent where they can.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Stark? Folsom? Joliet? Rykers?
Fer Chrissakes, this ain't The Longest Yard, boy!

Attica!  Attica!

SSH, the phone is ringing.  It's for you.  It's Hugo Chavez offering employment.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

You won't be laughing in 2008...
when our lineup is rolling around the field in wheelchairs.

by SSH2005 on Nov 20, 2007 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, that mental image is funny
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

by rhythm on Nov 20, 2007 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

wait...
Are we talking motorized, or self-propelled?  Hell Bossard could install a blacktop in the outfield... or even better, great big tires on the wheelchairs to navigate the grass.

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea.

by Hazymania on Nov 20, 2007 8:23 PM CST up reply actions  

you may be on to something here!
[Scot Gregor]:
Orlando Cabrera turned up his hearing aid, wheeled his chair over to the telephone and participated in a conference call with the Chicago media Tuesday.

by The Wizard on Nov 21, 2007 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

KW
Kenny said Cabrera and his wife are the most excited people he's ever talked to about becoming members of the White Sox? Sounds to me like the OC has a serious case of poor judgment.

Playoff team in warm weather with boatloads of prospects and cash vs. well, a .444 winning percentage over the last season and a half, a few prospects, and half a clubhouse who qualifies for the Senior Grand Slam at Denny's.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 12:10 PM CST reply actions  

You have completely
abandoned your roots already, haven't you, Mr. Left Coast?

Bastard.  Now get to work, Mr. Govt. Wonk.  And don't let me catch you walking down the South Side unprotected.  Enjoy your Chablis with Jon G.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm just sayin...
If the money is equal, I'd want to play where there is a good chance of winning. The Angels play in a division with two relatively small market teams and a third who spends like a big market team without getting value. The Sox have to overcome the holes in the lineup, as well as the Indians, Tigers, AND Twins.
What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

If the $ is equal,
and you already have a WS pelt, maybe you want to move where the quality of life is wonderful.  (LA/Ahaheim?  Please.  They slide into the ocean in <20 years.)  Maybe playing for a Hispanic former SS who keeps things loose might also be fun.  Maybe he'll get a chance to mentor Uribe for a year.  Maybe he likes Polish sausage.  

Plus, the Angels are the Left Coast version of the Yankees as of late - make the playoffs and flame out early.  The Sox bring it home (every 88 years), baby!

Don't sell your Sox short, big man.  Lots of folks love us.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah,
I'm pretty sure the OC isn't going to live in Chicago. When you only work half the year (I know, I know, they all work out all year, yadda yadda), and half of that year isn't in your "home" city, you don't really need to stay where ya play.
What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure - but you do spend
a lot of time there.  And as a future snow-birder, Chi-town is the bomb from May-Oct.

Still can't believe you're defecating all over your city/team a scant few months after leaving.  Ashamed you should be. Lighting a candle for your soul am I.

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Not defecating.
Admittedly, maybe a little bit of sharting.  

Come come on now, are you really excited about the 2008 prospects after the last season and a half? I swore the night the Sox won the World Series that I didn't care if they'd ever win another game. But that was bull--I want sustained success. I want the Bulls of the 90s, the Bears of the 40s, and the Boilermakers of the...well, you get my point.

What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

If you were three inches in front
of me after that Purdue comment, I would curl up into a ball, start whimpering and fist myself.  Like they do in Oakland.

You are no worse than any other fan who has tasted success - it's like blow (I imagine) in tat you can't have enough but fades after sustained experience.  I'd like to win, too.  I don't believe too many thought we could win it all in '05.  You never know.  So at least being interesting is preferable to last year's total boring, predictable ennui.  

2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope you're right,
but the Hot Stove is ALWAYS interesting. Without some more MAJOR moves, the ennui of that bullpen and outfield may be worse than '07.
What if your enemy is three inches in front of you, what do you do then? Curl into a ball? Or do you put your fist through him?

by Toonderstrook on Nov 20, 2007 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Is Kaiser Souze a throw-in?
2010 - the waiting is the hardest part.

by winningugly on Nov 20, 2007 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him
or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And poof. Just like that, he's gone.
OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Fuck your father in the shower and have a snack
you gonna charge me, shithead?
OK, bring on the Craigslist chick! Bathe her and bring her to my tent! And keep the Valtrex coming!

by colintj on Nov 20, 2007 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

My name is...
My name is Kobayashi. I work for Keyser Soze.

by bhoov on Nov 20, 2007 1:49 PM CST reply actions  

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