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Brian Anderson is totally thinking about going to winter ball. Totally.

[Mark Gonzales]

[C]enter fielder Brian Anderson is in no hurry to decide whether to play for Mexicali in the Mexican Pacific League. Anderson was to take live batting practice Tuesday at the University of San Diego for the first time since he injured his left wrist July 6 with Triple-A Charlotte.

"As of now, my health is good and I can't complain," Anderson said. "I just want to take this all the way to spring training."

I would think that nearly 5 months without facing live pitching would have one eager to get back out on the field in order to make the major league club. Wrist injuries can be tough. Dude.

Also in the article, The Legend is totally not sweating this free agent thing. Totally.

"I want to weigh all my options before making a decision," Rowand said. "Hopefully that team will make the decision for me."
...Rowand said, rubbing his fingers together suggestively.
*****

Speaking of Rowand, it seems he wasn't plan 1B but plan 1A (wiz):

According to a Sox source close to the situation, Rowand actually was Plan 1-A this offseason, and the Sox contacted him before they started talking numbers with Hunter to see if the sides were in the same neighborhood. They weren't even in the same area code. While no details were offered, preliminary talks with Rowand did not even get past the number of years. In other words, the man who patrolled center field like a Rottweiler for the Sox from 2001 to '05 likely will remain a memory in the minds of Sox fans while he entertains possible offers from the Texas Rangers and Los Angeles Dodgers.

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well
last spring training brian anderson won the battle for center field but not the war

by Jbasic89 on Nov 27, 2007 10:57 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I looked back at the stats...
and was surprised to notice that Rowand's career line is better than Hunter's.  The difference is that Rowand's career line is probably heavily skewed by his two sick seasons in 2004 and 2007.  But the fact that Rowand is 2 years younger than Hunter may make him more worthy of a 5-year, ~$75 million dollar contract than Hunter being worth 5-years, $90 million.

by SSH2005 on Nov 27, 2007 11:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Offensive comparison...
Torii Hunter (career stats):
.271 AVG / .324 OBP / .469 SLG / .793 OPS / 104 OPS+

Aaron Rowand (career stats):
.286 AVG / .343 OBP / .462 SLG / .805 OPS / 106 OPS+

The main difference between the two is that Torii is graceful in CF when he makes the plays.  Meanwhile, Rowand is like an old Cadillac with terrible brakes who may injury himself crashing into a fence.

by SSH2005 on Nov 27, 2007 11:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha. Good comparison.
I would rather have Rowand than Torii. The age is one reason why. Money is the other. I think Rowand can come cheaper than Torii.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 11:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"Daddy's home!"
"I'm not a 6-year-old." -Brian Nikola "Ungrindy" Anderson

by omnipotent grab on Nov 28, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry you can have Rowand
The main difference is the last 3 years.

Hunter
.269/.337/.452 (106)ops+
278/336/490 (112)
287/334/505 (122)

Rowand
.270/.329/.407 (93)ops+
262/321/425 (86)
309/374/515 (123)

I think I will take Hunter. 2 years older or not.
 

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 28, 2007 8:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BA needs to get his act together
So he can either be traded or start somewhere on our team.

What would an OF of Rowand, Dye, Anderson look like?

Hmm...

Or what about Owens, Dye, Anderson.

Owens, Dye, Sweeney?

So many choices!!!

The bottom line is someone has to go if someone comes. Either Anderson, Owens, or Sweeney. Especially if Crede comes back and Fields stays in LF.

That's one crowded mediocre OF!

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 27, 2007 11:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I would give Anderson one more chance...
in Spring Training if Kenny only signs one outfielder this offseason.  Let him duke it out with Owens.  If Andersons wins, I would stick him in CF and Rowand (if we sign him) in LF.

by SSH2005 on Nov 27, 2007 11:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?
I was unimpressed by Guillen's handling of Anderson in 2006 -- they stuck with him for long enough for him to start hitting a little then decided to semi-platoon him with Mack. And, obviously, the Sox would have been better served to play Anderson in CF last year to see if he had anything rather than the Grinder v. 2.0. So, what I'm saying is that I have not been of a mind with Joe Cowley about BA in the past.

But at this point, it seems like he's just quit. I suppose that's one way to get your release, but unless Anderson's wrist really needed to rest for 5 months it seems like deciding not to put effort into being a baseball player is a bad career move.

I hate the idea of losing possible talent for nothing -- it's possible he could go to AAA and play himself into tradeability. But I wouldn't blame Williams for simply releasing Anderson at this point.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 27, 2007 11:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Guillen really
handled Fields poorly this year too... OH wait! Fields actually contributed to the team! How do you handle a "bum" poorly? You throw him a nickel and tell him not to spend it all in one place.
"Because I'm Chevy Chase and you're not."

by Soulja Boy on Nov 28, 2007 8:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Then you'd put Fields at 3B
and trade Crede? I don't recall... and I'm too lazy... is there an option on Crede this year? When can we logically expect a decision to be made on him?

It would sure make our befuddled outfield situation a little less befuddld.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 12:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm assuming that Kenny is going to trade Crede...
for a reliever.  But if he decides to stick with Crede at 3B and throw Fields in LF, I'm all for it.  The Sox can offer salary arbitration to Crede for 2008 and that's it.  After the 2008 season, Crede is a free agent.  Crede is set to make around $5 million for 2008.  I would be fine with the following lineup...

CF  Rowand
SS  Cabrera
DH  Thome
1B  Konerko
RF  Dye
3B  Crede
LF  Fields
C   Pierzynski
2B  Richar

As far as a timeline on a decision about Crede...

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/schedule/important_dates.jsp

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 12:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool, thanks!
That means that one of Owens, Sweeney, Anderson will be gone somewhere. But knowing Crede's back, one of starting caliber will have to be kept around in case Fields has to move back to 3B.

That is one pretty darn good lineup, I'd say.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 12:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually...
I think I'd try to bust up that slow ass 3,4,5 lead boot trio with Rowand somewhere in there.

Hmm...

  1. Cabrera
  2. Richar
  3. Thome
  4. Konerko
  5. Rowand
  6. Dye
  7. Crede
  8. Fields
  9. AJ
Or, bat Fields 2nd and move Richar down to 8th or 9th, and AJ at the bottom. Crede and Dye could probably swap too.
  1. Cabrera
  2. Fields
  3. Konerko
  4. Thome
  5. Rowand
  6. Crede
  7. Dye
  8. AJ
  9. Richar
...

That lineup is SO much better than what we had last year...

  1. Erstad
  2. Pods
  3. Thome
  4. Konerko
  5. Dye
  6. AJ
  7. Fields
  8. Uribe
  9. Richar
..... PUKE!
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 12:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude... I may be hopped up on
Meds and 3 red bulls, typing papers etc, but DAMN... that is one sexy lineup.

Bring Rowand here, please Kenny!

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 1:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Arizona Fall League wrap-up
From Matthew Pouliot at Rotowire:

http://rotoworld.com/content/features/column.aspx?sport=MLB&columnid=2&articleid=29553&p g=1

...........
...............

Here is what he says about the White Sox prospects...

Dewon Day - RHP White Sox - DOB: 09/29/80
2-3, 3.60 ERA, 26 H, 48/12 K/BB in 25 IP (AA Birmingham)
0-2, 6.28 ERA, 10 H, 15/20 K/BB in 14 1/3 IP (AAA Charlotte)
0-1, 11.25 ERA, 19 H, 7/9 K/BB in 12 IP (Chicago - AL)
0-1, 1.38 ERA, 9 H, 17/4 K/BB in 13 IP (AFL Phoenix)

With a low-90s sinking fastball and a plus slider, Day has the stuff to be a force out of the bullpen. However, he's now 27 and he still hasn't put it together. He struck out 63 and walked 32 in 39 1/3 IP innings in the minors last season. What makes Day especially intriguing, in addition to the strikeouts, is his strong groundball rate. Including his time in the AFL, he gave up just two homers in 64 1/3 innings last season. The White Sox could really use a guy who can get double plays in the sixth or seventh inning. Day, though, walks too many batters to be trusted with men on base right now. He'll enter camp as a long shot to make the team.

Jack Egbert - RHP White Sox - DOB: 05/12/83
12-8, 3.06 ERA, 138 H, 165/44 K/BB in 161 2/3 IP (AA Birmingham)
1-0, 3.26 ERA, 14 H, 17/11 K/BB in 19 1/3 IP (AFL Phoenix)

Egbert, a Rutgers product drafted in the 13th round in 2004, is shaping up as quite a find. Despite a middling fastball, he manages to induce grounders from right-handers, and he strikes out a lot of lefties with his top-notch changeup. That he only occasionally hits 90 on the gun means the combination might not work as well in the majors. However, he does enough things well that he should put together a career as a fourth or fifth starter, and there's a chance he'll be something more. The White Sox could give him his first opportunity during the first half of 2008. He's a reasonable bet for immediate success while the league tries to figure out his change.

Adam Russell - RHP White Sox - DOB: 04/14/83
9-11, 4.80 ERA, 159 H, 95/58 K/BB in 138 2/3 IP (AA Birmingham)
2-0, 2.81 ERA, 16 H, 16/8 K/BB in 16 IP (AFL Phoenix)

Russell wasn't all that far away from making the White Sox last spring, but he didn't fulfill the team's expectations after being assigned to Double-A. An imposing figure at 6-foot-8 and 250 pounds, Russell looks like he'd be tough to hit. However, the Southern League batted .290 against him and he struck out just 95 in 138 2/3 innings. As a full-time reliever in the AFL, he did generate more missed cuts, but he still had a 1.50 WHIP while fanning 16 batters in 16 innings. With his mid-90s fastball and occasionally impressive slider, he has real potential as a short reliever. The White Sox figure to leave him in the pen and hope that he'll be ready to help by June or July. He's due for some time in Triple-A as he continues to adjust to his new role.

Ryan Sweeney - OF White Sox - DOB: 02/20/85
.270/.348/.398, 10 HR, 47 RBI, 71/48 K/BB, 8 SB in 397 AB (AAA Charlotte)
.200/.265/.333, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 5/4 K/BB, 0 SB in 45 AB (Chicago - AL)
.286/.347/.345, 1 HR, 13 RBI, 18/9 K/BB, 5 SB in 84 AB (AFL Phoenix)

I want to give White Sox GM Ken Williams credit and assume he's not as close to giving up on Sweeney as the Chicago media suggests. Talk about a half-baked idea.

OK, moving on.

Sweeney has been mishandled by the White Sox nearly from day one. The 2003 second-round pick was sent to high-A ball as a 19-year-old in 2004 and got talked up as a candidate for the major league roster as early as 2005. All along, he's posted numbers in the minors that were average at best, but because of his youth, there were always encouraging signs to be taken from them. Only during last season did he take his first step backwards. However, he was just 22 and he hardly embarrassed himself with a .270 average in Triple-A. While his power hasn't emerged as hoped, there's still good reason to believe he'll eventually establish himself as a quality regular. He's willing to go to all fields with his left-handed stroke, and he doesn't whiff all that often. The 20-homer ability should arrive within a couple of years. The White Sox will likely send him back to Triple-A next year, but he could emerge as their top option in case of an injury to any of their starting outfielders. Odds are that he'll be some team's right fielder in 2009.

......

Former White Sox? Yep...

Aaron Cunningham - OF Diamondbacks - DOB: 04/24/86
.294/.376/.476, 8 HR, 37 RBI, 39/34 K/BB, 22 SB in 252 AB (A+ Winston Salem)
.358/.386/.553, 3 HR, 20 RBI, 23/5 K/BB, 5 SB in 123 AB (A+ Visalia)
.288/.364/.534, 5 HR, 20 RBI, 27/12 K/BB, 1 SB in 118 AB (AA Southern)
.267/.385/.360, 2 HR, 15 RBI, 20/11 K/BB, 3 SB in 86 AB (AFL Scottsdale)

Cunningham was involved in an increasingly rare prospect-for-prospect swap last year, going from the White Sox to Arizona for second baseman Danny Richar. He had a clearer path to the majors with his old club, and with players like Justin Upton, Carlos Quentin and Carlos Gonzalez ahead of him on the Diamondbacks, he might become trade bait again soon enough. Cunningham does a little bit of everything offensively, combining for a .308 average, 16 homers, 10 triples and 31 doubles in 493 at-bats last season. The speed that allowed him to steal 28 bases won't play as well in the majors, and he's not much more than an average defender in an outfield corner. Still, his professional approach at the plate has a pretty good chance of making him a regular. The Diamondbacks will let him continue to develop at Double-A at the beginning of the year. If dealt, he might make his major league debut after the All-Star break.

......................
..............................

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 3:37 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I hope he's right about Egbert
That at least is encouraging. I can't wait for ST now!
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 2:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've got my money on him
doing well.  I just don't think high-end velocity is exceptionally important to sinkerballers and I don't think the scouts properly contextualize his fastball as a result.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He shall remain a myth and legend
According to Cowley:
According to a Sox source close to the situation, Rowand actually was Plan 1-A this offseason, and the Sox contacted him before they started talking numbers with Hunter to see if the sides were in the same neighborhood. They weren't even in the same area code.

While no details were offered, preliminary talks with Rowand did not even get past the number of years. In other words, the man who patrolled center field like a Rottweiler for the Sox from 2001 to '05 likely will remain a memory in the minds of Sox fans while he entertains possible offers from the Texas Rangers and Los Angeles Dodgers.

...Rowand said, rubbing his fingers together suggestively.

Apparently no home town discount coming from the Legend.  Where's the love dude?  

Cowley continues (who the hell is leaking all this, no subtlety at all):

The Red Sox have become crowded in the outfield with the emergence of Jacoby Ellsbury, and Williams is all too familiar with Crisp and his .316 batting average (62-for-196) against the White Sox since 2004...

Another possibility for Williams could be trying to revisit a trade for speedy Willy Taveras. The Sox were in talks with Houston last winter about Taveras, whom the Astros eventually traded to Colorado. Williams could try to use third baseman Joe Crede to get a deal done with the Rockies at the winter meetings next week.

That's good news for me, I was never a big fan of the stubby-legged Rowand while he was here.  Keep your fingers crossed on Fukudome, I pray that they're working on him under the radar.  I could definitely live with an OF of Dye LF, Crisp/Taveras CF, Fukudome RF.

"We've missed a little bit of that grind and edge and we've got to get that back." - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Nov 28, 2007 7:29 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

8 seconds...
It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 28, 2007 8:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

...is a lifetime in porn
and Cyberspace, ain't it, Chi?

;)

Can't believe folks thought we were actually going to pay for Hunter or Legend.  As Dr. Phil would say. "What WERE you thinking about?"

As for The Big Picture, let it go, man.  So much noise about so little.  Looking at past behavior is the most accurate wayto extrapolate future events, and when's the last time we significantly (over)paid for a player?  Joey B.  (Management doesn't count, and neither does JD's contract, since he's "family".)

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 11:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the last time?
i guess whenever linebrink signs his contract.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, $19MM isn't $80MM
I understand he's not a value contract but I'm talking a break-the-bank, head-turning, "we're effin' serious now, boys!" contract.  This is more of a head-scratching, fetid contract.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well...
It happened mere weeks after the Belle signing, but the Jaime Navarro contract (4 years, $20 million) was a big one for the time.

You can't say the Sox aren't spending money - they've just got most of it tied up in current players right now.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 11:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not spending on FA's
outside the "family" is the point.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

NO to Rowand (says Cowley)
Rowand out of picture

Crisp a more likely target for Sox; Taveras a possibility

According to a Sox source close to the situation, Rowand actually was Plan 1-A this offseason, and the Sox contacted him before they started talking numbers with Hunter to see if the sides were in the same neighborhood. They weren't even in the same area code.

What that means for general manager Ken Williams is he will continue to work the phones in hopes of landing a proven center fielder in a trade. And the name that still is being whispered around U.S. Cellular Field is Boston's Coco Crisp.
Another possibility for Williams could be trying to revisit a trade for speedy Willy Taveras. The Sox were in talks with Houston last winter about Taveras, whom the Astros eventually traded to Colorado. Williams could try to use third baseman Joe Crede to get a deal done with the Rockies at the winter meetings next week.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/670126,CST-SPT-sox28.article

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Nov 28, 2007 7:29 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Wow...
talk about going from some decent CF options (Hunter & Rowand) to garbage options (Coco & Taveras).

So Kenny won't offer Rowand the same 5-year, $75 million dollar contract that he offered Torii Hunter even though Rowand was his Plan 1-A?  I smell bullshit.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 8:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why is it bullshit?
He probably doesn't think Rowand is more valuable than Hunter. Neither do I.
"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Nov 28, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think it's bullshit either
Given Rowand's quotes in the paper ("I've talked to Kenny"), it seems like he won't be back. That's OK with me -- if he wants 6/$80M then that's another bullet dodged. I can imagine Williams being a lot more in love with Hunter than Rowand; he did trade Rowand in the first place.

I'm disappointed we haven't heard Fukdome's name. At the point where you start talking about a trade like  DLS and more for Crisp I think the Sox need to consider playing Owens in CF and bringing in a corner OF.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 28, 2007 9:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe Cowley should look at a team's roster...
before making up awful trade scenarios.  So the Rockies would want Crede for Taveras when they already have a much better third baseman in Garrett Atkins?  Hmmm, makes sense.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 8:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And don't forget...
...there have been rumors that the Rockies could move Garrett Atkins to make room for top 3B prospect Ian Stewart.

So, uh, yeah, Crede to the Rockies...jeez.

by JasonC23 on Nov 28, 2007 9:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What's it like...
...to have a logjam of prospects? I can't remember.

by JasonC23 on Nov 28, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

what are you talkin about?
Have you seen our outfield prospects? Anderson, Owens, Sweeney. Cunningham was expendable because we had a logjam. ;)
Bring Back BA

by marco054 on Nov 28, 2007 10:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly...
I don't know where Crede would go at this point, and what he would bring back in return.  But if Fields isn't going to be playing left field, then they have to move Crede, right?  I'm having trouble seeing the big picture here...

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Brave New World.
Are you sure you WANT to see the big picture?
Chartreuse: A drink so good they named a color after it.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 28, 2007 10:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think anyone could predict Kenny's moves..
He doesn't want to spend big bucks on a CF'er like Hunter or Rowand but he will give a guaranteed $19 million dollars to a declining reliever.

I guess we can talk about possible moves all we want but if we end up with Jerry Owens starting in CF or LF, this offseason will be a failure anyways.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Since when doesn't Williams want to spend.....
big bucks on a CF? 5/75 wasn't "big bucks" for Hunter????

by Tony82087 on Nov 28, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
It seems that the team made a legitimate offer for Hunter, and while I like Rowand, he's not as valuable as Hunter is.

That doesn't excuse the Linebrink contract, though.  I'm still holding out hope that it falls through somehow.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 11:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There's a difference between a contract offer...
and a signed contract.  Offering a contract that a player is never going to sign is an easy way of saving face with the fans so they don't stop paying for their season tickets.

Once again, get back to me when the White Sox sign a big money top free agent.  It hasn't happened since Albert Belle.  Keep in mind, I'm not counting retaining players like Konerko and Buehrle.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

PLEASE
So are you telling me that AFTER Hunter signed his deal with his contract, he felt obligated to make the Sox look good, but saying he thought there was no doubt about it he was going to be a white Sox?

Believe it or not, the Sox had an offer on the table to pay a player 15 million dollars annually for 5 years. It's a fact, not a rumor, but a fact.

Whats humorous is you can bitch about not signing a big name free agent, and not dishing out the money, but if the Sox would have signed Hunter for what LAA gave him, you would be crying about how much money the Sox spend to get him.

by Tony82087 on Nov 28, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Once again, the proof is in the pudding...
Albert Belle.  'Nuff said.

I hope you direct your anger at the correct person (Kenny) when Jerry Owens is starting in our outfield.

Until then, get back to me when we sign a top free agent.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, it's not "Nuff said"
But I guess thats the easy way out for you.

Please respond to my post, as I am interested to hear your take. Would you have been happy to sign Hunter at the Halos price? Is that what you would have wanted, or would you have bitched that we paid too much?

Is 5/75 not a large offer to you?

Jeez, I thought I was done arguing with you when you got banned from Soxtalk. Guess not.

by Tony82087 on Nov 28, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would have been shocked...
that the Sox dished out the cash but what does it matter anyways?  Not surprisingly, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN and Torii Hunter is not in a White Sox uniform.

If Jerry Owens is starting in our outfield on opening day in 2008, are you going to apologize to me?

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

except me
means more hits for my baseball reference page as people keep daily track of his amazing OPS.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

3576..
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

re
Name and misspellings: gerry Jerry gerry Jerry Lee Owens

No Jesse?

:p

by The Wizard on Nov 28, 2007 1:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, I apolgize for the gramatical errors,
I am reading it now, and it looks really bad. I was on the phone was typing that out. Wow.

by Tony82087 on Nov 28, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why don't you count...
retaining guys like Buehrle and Konerko?  Keeping talent is as important as bringing in talent from outside.

Again, the problem isn't that the Sox aren't willing to spend money.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i haven't been able to figure out that distinction
either. it's not like we're a team that simply doesn't sign top-tier free agents. or, perhaps worse, overpays for second-tier ones.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

or
i should say, in the case of those other than PK, soon to be free agents. the trend in baseball has been to lock-up good players or trade them to someone who will lock them up. free agency isn't really that good - you're generally bidding up players who don't really deserve it. you can look at this years free agent class for evidence of that.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.
A lot of players tend to enter free agency right at the end of their prime, when their value is at its highest.  Some players retain that value for years afterwards, but they're fairly uncommon.  An awful lot of the time, you're paying retail rates for a decline phase.

When teams extend their own players, they have a bit more control over what part of that player's career they can use.

I actually think that Ken Williams has done a good job in terms of not allowing any one contract to become a huge albatross that prevents him from doing other things.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's what they deem "risk" in a signing
that is bothersome.  If you're not part of the team already you are the Devil when it comes to opening the checkbook.  We'll trade for you and THEN sign a decent-sized deal, but God forbid we go hard after Fukodome.  Shoot, I'd even overpay in a trade (Crawford fan club prez here) in the right scenario (and Miggy Cabrera is not it, IMO).

Open it up, KW!

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Because both players were already with the team...
and signed for less money because their first choice was to stay with the White Sox.  They didn't want to up-root their families.  Basically, the White Sox had the upper-hand from the start.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 12:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So, in essense...
you're complaining because the Sox won't overpay for players?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's obviously not overpaying anymore...
Every free agent is signing for big contracts.  It's market value now.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

market?
maybe. but i'd rather get players who signed their "market" contracts two years ago. or are willing to take a haircut to play for the sox. seems like better business.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well who the hell wouldn't
want a contract from 2 years ago?  We did that for Paulie and Count in '06 and last year most of the posters couldn't wait to get rid of both of them (I agree with losing Count).  So much for "value", since Konerko was seen by many as no more valuable as Kotchman.  That is kind of a "begging the question" issue - everyone wants below-market, value-oriented contracts.  Point is, sometimes you have to pay up for performance if the cupboard (farm/trade bait) is bare and you want to compete.  What's wrong with paying for quality if that is the only discernable option?

(Just to set the record straight - overpaying for Hunter/Rowand is not my idea of good business.  I was willing to do it for Ichiro, though - he fits my parameters of "value" when "overpaying".)

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 12:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

there's nothing wrong with paying for quality
if the marginal value of that payment is high. i thought we were discussing in the context of the sox.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not understanding
the bitching about not getting Hunter, either.  The Sox seemingly put out the best offer until, rather abruptly, the Angels blew everybody else away with an extra $15 million guaranteed.  I know "second best" doesn't mean a whole helluva lot, but 5/$90 isn't worth it to the Sox.  

The only problem I can see is this.  Kenny is still putting up this "we're going to compete in 2008!" face, and missing out on Hunter appears to be a big blow to that, as in 2008, I can't see any available option that is going to do better than Hunter.  It sure ain't Rowand -- his ZiPS projection (hitting in Philly in the NL) was .276/.339/.444.  The only way the Sox could replicate Hunter's probable 2008 production would be gambling on Jones or Fukodome -- guys everybody here seems to want -- and even those guys aren't great bets to match Hunter.

So what I'm saying is...  If Kenny wants to tell everyone the Sox are trying to compete in 2008, he better not half-ass it -- he'd damn well better improve LF and CF too.  At the same time, he'd damn well better not marginally improve the team and give up Gio or DLS in the process.

by CWSKeith on Nov 28, 2007 12:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

andruw jones
has outproduced hunter every year except two. i'd say he's an excellent bet to outproduce hunter.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed...
Doesn't do us much good though.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

how do you explain his '07 though?
it's really bizarre and i don't have a good answer.    
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Two Words
Scott Boras.

by ckimcircles on Nov 28, 2007 6:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not even a chance, so what's the point
of even mentioning him.

by ckimcircles on Nov 28, 2007 6:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he was referring to Scott Boras
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 10:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

but then he posted again immediately after
sort of defeats the rhetorical effect.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 10:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing gets by you, Larry
As you are no doubt the king of rhetoric. At least here at SSS.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 10:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i think jim beats me in quality
i'm sure some other posters do, too. i make up for it in sheer quantity.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 10:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Trumping the Angels offer...
definitely would have been overpaying for Hunter, considering his age and likely production down the road.

But I could see your point if the Sox payroll was $40 million, or $60 million, or even $75 million.  But it's over $100 million.  How high do you want the Sox to go?  Into Yankee/Red Sox territory?

Again, the problem isn't that the team isn't willing to spend money.  It's that they can't spend the money, because it's tied up in the existing roster.  The minors are providing little help, so if they want a backup catcher or a utility infielder or a decent reliever, they've got to go out and pay retail for that.  Having a $20 million bench and a $25 million bullpen means that you can't go out and pay for that superstar.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's exactly right.
Seriously, do more than five or six teams have bigger payrolls than the Sox?  I don't think one can claim the Sox are cheap.  You might disagree with how they spend their money, but that's different than saying they won't spend the money.  Geez, they aren't even the biggest draw in their own city!  I'm sure someone has the top payroll figures at their fingertips (heck, I'm counting on it).

by palehose67 on Nov 28, 2007 1:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Sox were fifth in MLB...
in payroll in 2007, behind the Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, and Angels, and just ahead of the Dodgers.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 1:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not saying they are cheap,
but less open to FA's.  That's all I have an issue with.  Right now, the only questionable re-ups are Count and JD, in my mind.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And I don't see...
what the big deal is there.  If the Sox are spending the money, and they aren't spending it stupidly, what difference does it make whether or not they go outside the organization for talent?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 1:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

As mentioned, JD/Count were
questionable, if not stupid.  And that's not including Guillen's 5 years.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

uproot their families?
MB's family doesn't live in chicago. neither does PK's.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not again...
Because both players were already with the team...

Konerko was a FA at the time, the Sox had allowed his contract with the team to finish, he wasn't on a member of the team

by The Wizard on Nov 28, 2007 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

re
Keep in mind, I'm not counting retaining players like Konerko and Buehrle.

yes, Buehrle was retained
no, Konerko wasn't

Konerko was a FA at the time

by The Wizard on Nov 28, 2007 1:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ugh
That trade is going to hurt if it happens. There's no good fit with the Sox (Texas can give up Laird and a pitching prospect which is exactly what BOS wants). So, if Kenny really wants Crisp, he'll have to overpay to get him. I guess this is another test to see just how badly off course the  Sox are. If either of the Sox top 2 prospects are moved to get Crisp (or Taveras for that matter), that would be a fireable offense in my world.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 28, 2007 9:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What...
you're not excited about an outfield of Jermaine Dye, Jerry Owens, and an older, more expensive version of Jerry Owens?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And before larry jumps in...
yes, I'm aware that Crisp isn't much older and is a bit better than Owens.  I was being hyperbolic.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Going from
replacement level to an average MLB CF is a lot more than a bit better. Let me check that:
Coco is 13-22 runs above average with the glove (by UZR, PMR and fielding bible) by UZR and 5-10 runs below average with the bat. So even better than I thought, a slightly above average MLB CF.

Owens is a REPLACEMENT level player. Huge difference.  

By the way I definitely wouldn't trade DLS/Gio/Poreda for Crisp. Anybody else? Sure.

by bhoov on Nov 28, 2007 12:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And I get flamed for hyperbole...
I don't like Crisp much, but both his glove and bat are in a league above Owens. So I don't buy into that comparison. I'd actually be OK with acquiring Crisp if:
  1. It doesn't cost more than something than like a non GIO/DLS minor leaguer and a non-Jenks bullpen arm.
  2. It means that LF no longer stands for Leadoff Fielder and  Owens is on the bench. And that the Sox get a left fielder with some pop (preferably signing Fukodome and moving Dye to left).  
The problem is that both of those conditions seem unlikely to be met.

Anyway, yes Owens/Crisp/Dye is unexciting.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 28, 2007 12:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think I got a little teary eyed reading that.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 9:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, that's funny, SSH
Lew effin' Ford.  Good guy to get worked up over.

LOL.

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said, that is funny.
I'm still smiling.

This morning I was describing some of the posts from yesterday (especially bally's line) to my buddy after our run.  He suggested that the SSS posters should get together for beers.  SSH, you'd frighten the bejeezus out of me.  Pass on THAT idea.

;)

2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Man that was a classic
If we ever decide to vote on "one liner's of the year" that ballyb line has got to win.

by bhoov on Nov 28, 2007 12:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Diaz
has had some injury issues, no? Still, he could be fairly useful.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 2:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

agree with you there
he walks approximately never, but his power against RHP can't be denied.  he'd be a nice bit o' pop off the bench and he's got a reverse platoon split for his (albeit short) career.  it'd be a good signing, imo.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LF in 2008
Assuming Crede is gone and Fields stays at 3rd, Legend is acquired for CF and Dye in RF, who will be patrolling LF in 2008?
"I give Ozzie an 'A'... This team has never packed it in and I give Ozzie the credit." - Jerry Reinsdorf

by tailgater on Nov 28, 2007 1:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I guess...
the leadoff hitter has to play somewhere.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

3577...
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh man...
How soon before Legend and Owens crack skulls?

(Cue circus music)

"I give Ozzie an 'A'... This team has never packed it in and I give Ozzie the credit." - Jerry Reinsdorf

by tailgater on Nov 28, 2007 1:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

From MLB TradeRumors.com
"Cards Considering Jack Wilson, Tejada, Izturis"

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/cards-consideri.html

What about Juanderful Juan?

by ballyb on Nov 28, 2007 1:20 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

To highlight the total insanity
of fall '08 "trade rumors" - may happen, may not.

In January of '06 Crisp was essentially traded for Andy Marte (other players were involved, but for argument's sake assume 1 for 1). A very good MLB player for a real stud prospect.

Fast forward to now. Crisp's abilities have waned, but now he's worth.......voila, 3 prospects.

Pendulums in motion.

by ballyb on Nov 28, 2007 1:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The...
Boston Herald.

If the Red Sox are planning onto holding onto Crisp as part of a package for Santana, it would make sense to ask a lot for Crisp otherwise.  But it's just rumor, after all...

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 28, 2007 1:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fall '08?
Que?  Are you time-traveling again?
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld reporting...
The Twins are close to landing Delmon Young from the Twins in a six-player deal that would send Matt Garza to Tampa Bay.

Great.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 2:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

More information on the trade...
The Twins are close to landing Delmon Young from the Twins in a six-player deal that would send Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett and Juan Rincon to Tampa Bay.
The Twins would also pick up Brendan Harris and Jason Pridie, the Star Tribune's La Velle E. Neal III reports. Young would likely play right field in Minnesota, with Michael Cuddyer moving to left. Nick Punto could replace Bartlett, leaving Harris to take over at second until Alexi Casilla is ready. The Rays would be opening up room in the outfield for Rocco Baldelli or Elijah Dukes. Jonny Gomes' chances of sticking around would also seem to increase.
Source:  Minneapolis Star Tribune

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 2:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If true, Kenny should be on the phone...
trying to acquire Jonny Gomes to play LF.

by SSH2005 on Nov 28, 2007 2:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

notice how it says "increase"
in reference to gomes staying around?

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you said elijah dukes and rocco baldelli
yeah, i'd trade away my insurance policy because neither of those guys have any trouble staying in the lineup.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah - I don't see the net benefit
to the Rays.  Big ? for me - Dukes will be in court all year, Baldelli in the infirmary.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 2:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure why the D-Rays
are doing this, as most see Young destined for stardom and they've already got Brignac.  Why do they need a shortstop?  And why do they need pitching now, when Brignac and their young pitchers are about a year away?  At a glance (rather than a considered and well researched perspective), it looks like a swap of offense for defense and as far as that goes, I'd almost always take the offense.  Harris and Young are likely to be above average at their respective positions and Pridie very well could be the same, though I wouldn't call it likely.  Meanwhile, Garza still has  some BB rate issues to iron out and got extremely lucky wrt his LD% ceded.

This is a challenge trade, no?  The D-Rays think Garza will be more valuable than Young?  Obviously, they're in the best position to judge Young, but most were not nearly so turned off on his debut season.  Weird.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 2:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

colin, you bastard,
I was going to cop that sig.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

those creaky joints just ain't the
point-and-click machine they used to be.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 3:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You can hear them in Ann Arbor, eh?
My right elbow grinds more than Erstad's body.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's got a little goatee
and punts in its spare time, does it?
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 3:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Old man, I'm a little confused
How will the 2008 White Sox be like the Battle of the Bulge? I'm not so much of a history buff, but I kinda recall a little about that part of WWII and I'm kinda lost.

Unless you refer to Jermaine Dye and Juan Uribe's ever expanding waist-line...

You were alive then, shed some light ;)

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 3:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, the comment by JR
that we WILL be competitive this year prompted the "last stand" thought, like the Germans in the Battle of the Bulge in '44 (and no, I was not alive then, wise guy).
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 3:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

haha
I only kid with ya. You're probably younger than my dad but you're always the one bringing up some old ass references that I don't get. Stuff from the 60's and 70's. I was hardly a sperm in my Dad's nutes at that point.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 3:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

By the way,
that will be the first and last time I refer to either sperm or my dad's nutes on this board :)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What's a nute?
How did your Dad get one?
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lmao
Here is where I get the chance to spread some cool lingo on the old folks ;)

nutes (neuticles) are actually a product recently invented for dogs that have been neutered so they think they still have balls. They are fake testicles. My roomates, and consequently I, have begun referring to all testicles as nutes. Just sounds funnier. Also, nuts closely resemble nutes.

What a way to pass the afternoon here on SSS.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 3:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Back to baseball:
I bet my left nute that Jerry Owens starts in the OF in April with the parent club.
2008 - Sox version of The Battle of the Bulge: The Final Stand

by winningugly on Nov 28, 2007 3:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

awesome
i will definitely use that.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What a site.
SSS: Your one-stop shop for history, biology, catfights, and occasionally a little baseball.
Chartreuse: A drink so good they named a color after it.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 28, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Even for us "minors"?
or will I need to swap a Rolling Rock with a virgin Pina Colada?

by CWSKeith on Nov 28, 2007 3:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

awww, you're precious
you want to drink with the big boys
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Nov 28, 2007 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What you need to do
is find a real beer, man! You're in Wisconsin for crying out loud--can't you at least find some Point?  
Chartreuse: A drink so good they named a color after it.

by Toonderstrook on Nov 28, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

unfortunately
the contract says drinks. so it's a shirley temple for you. and maybe for us all.

by larry on Nov 28, 2007 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

depends on how old tubesox is :)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Nov 28, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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