Kenny Williams' fishing expedition update

by The Wizard on Dec 22, 2007 12:50 PM CST in News Comment 66 comments

How about signing Orlando Cabrera to an extension Kenny?

"We've got other things we need to get to before we get there. We'll see how it goes. We've expressed to them a willingness to discuss it, and they've expressed to us a willingness to hear it."

Any interest in Mark Prior Kenny?

"No, not at this time."

Other news in the article: Josh Fields says Carlos Quentin will be a huge addition to the Sox, Jerry Owens spent part of his offseason teaching baseball to kids in South Africa, Erstad donated some dishes, and Ernie Young called it a career and is expected to take a job with the Sox. ***** In other news,

Jim looks on the Alexei Ramirez signing and brings news of Cleveland's latest addition: Andy 'TNT Canoe' Gonzalez.
Speaking of ex-Sox players, Cliff Politte signed with the Cardinals.
Grindness rankings. But where is The Legend?
Can we classify every pitch?
And Cheat updated the White Sox Pitch Type Data Google spreadsheet with the Xtra Base Hits data for each pitcher.

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at least jerry has a future

as a scout in africa.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 1:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

How could you possibly say that?

Jerry Owens is a stud.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

(Engulfs larry)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 22, 2007 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ernie Young

is my hero.

by jackie hayes on Dec 22, 2007 2:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Alexei Ramírez's contract details...

Ramírez's base salary is 4-years, $4.75 million but he can earn up to $8 million in incentives.

"Ramírez agrees to four-year, $8M deal with White Sox"

The Chicago White Sox and Cuban exile Alexei Ramírez have agreed to a four-year contract worth up to $8 million with incentives, pending a physical exam, agent Jaime Torres told ESPNdeportes.com on Saturday.

Three months ago, the infielder/outfielder received a monthly salary of $20 as one of the stars of the powerful Cuban national baseball team. His new contract with Chicago has a base salary of $4.75 million.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 4:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

These incentives lead me to believe...

that Ramírez already has a spot on our opening day roster. I doubt Ramírez would sign a contract with a lot of money in incentives if he was not given the chance to earn them right from the start.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 4:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah

because it sounds like this guy had a whole lot of bargaining power.

i'm sure he'll be given the opportunity to compete for a spot but it's pretty ambitious to think that a guy coming from where he was is going to be able to make the jump to the major leagues right away. frankly, the sox would be stupid to put him out there right away and they'd be even stupider to have guaranteed him a spot.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The guy went from earning $20 bucks a month...

to getting a guaranteed $4.75 million + a possible $3.25 million in incentives. Obviously, he had some bargaining power.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 4:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no

he moved from a restricted market to a free market.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm...

You thought that Alexei Ramírez would get $7.5 to $8.5 million per year just 3 months ago...

http://www.southsidesox.com/comments/2007/9/19/1542/14563/4#4

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 5:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you sure like to play gotcha

i pointed that out on the other thread already. things change. information improves.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also...

On September 19, 2007, Larry wrote:

if i were negotiating this, i'd open with 2/$13MM and go from there, probably with a ceiling of 3/$24MM. but i want more info before i'd start throwing out numbers.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 5:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what is your point?

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That no one is infallible except for God.

Merry Christmas.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think the point is that you like being a dick

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What's with the personal attack?

Take it sleazy, it's a message board.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

right

and what you were doing was oh so nice. i'm not stupid and neither is anyone else who reads this site.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So quoting someone's posts is a personal attack?

Wow.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you know exactly what you were doing

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

don't play dumb, you were being

antagonistic.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Way out of line on SSS

No goading allowed.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 22, 2007 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Certainly not.

Unless you're a cheeky college student with indie tastes from a superior university.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Superior?

How many new coaches do you guys have this year?

;)

And. larry, you can't have it both ways, Mr. Photographic (cursed) Memory. If someone brings up a previous post unflattering to you, you can't chalk it up to being "argumentative", since you frequently use other posters' previous words against them to point out inconsistent arguments.

Miggy and Willis, bro. Acknowledge and move on. But acknowledge, or you sound shrill, and it detracts from your obvious credibility.

And, Merry Christmas, all.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 22, 2007 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think it's fair

to hold people to their consistency in what they say in a given thread. if someone wants to ask why an opinion has changed, i think that's fair as well. but it's pretty obvious what SSH was doing here. i replied to his initial gotcha post with why my opinion changed. and what did he reply with? totally unnecessary. he had no point other than to be a dick.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 8:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And, truth be told, you

play the same game, on occasion. (Not often, but occasionally, just to perpetuate the discussion.) I take no offense, and neither should you. Socratic dialogue. Iron sharpens iron.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 22, 2007 8:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

socratic dialogue has a point

the gotcha game doesn't.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Then why do you (occasionally)

play it, too?

Because it's fun, and anonymous, on this site.

Until you are called out on it.

Just stay consisent. You usually are cogent, accurate, and informative, but sometimes put someone up against the wall, usually desevedly so. If it happens to you, and it's accurate (if not deft) move on without rancor and defensiveness.

OK, I'm done preaching. Back to the holiday spirit.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 22, 2007 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i don't do what SSH did

sorry you can't see the difference.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No one called your mama names.

Everyone chill out. Merry Christmas.

www.fratdaddy.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 22, 2007 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

stop

being whiny little bitches... I could only imagine what some of you guys look like. ROFL.

Toonderstrook's myspace page http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=67492521

by Soulja Boy on Dec 23, 2007 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

new means good right?

and i think you're wrong about larry needing to cede anything to ssh. it was irrelevant, considering we had no idea what his talent level was. larry said as much in the old comemnt.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 9:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that was back when we thought

he might be an MLB regular. that's not exactly how the scouting report reads.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What scouting report came out on Alexei Ramírez...

since September 19, 2007?

I may have missed it.

by SSH2005 on Dec 22, 2007 5:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the mlb scouting bureau's for a start

and scouts from probably every team looked at him, too, and their impressions (or at least from some teams) have leaked out. no one saw him as a starter, at least not immediately. this contract obviously screams that.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

btw, man u - newcastle 10.20.96

is on FSC.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i watched

the 9-0 demolition of ipswich earlier today. must be red devil reprise weekend.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i see

fox is fair and balanced, right? the 5 nil ass-kicking.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and there's the 5th

goodtimes.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ask the toon army about

how they felt the following may.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah if i hadn't been 11 at the time

i'm sure i would have marveled at the difference. manu looked like they had no idea how to play defense in that game.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ooh, arsenal won their derby

w00p. wish i hadn't been driving from umich to chicago.

oh you hear anything about how well the American players are doing.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

dempsey had a good day

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i saw, that's why i asked

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Home from finals I take it?

God, brings back memories - what a relief that was having the finals behind me and getting the hell out of AA for the holidays. Of course, there was always the lake effect whiteout blizzard to look forward to between Kalamazoo and Michigan City.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 22, 2007 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I drive back to the burbs every year

and not once have I run into a blizzard in that corridor. I guess I'm lucky or something. Here's hoping that continues.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ManU is currently getting it's

comeuppance. 4-0 in the 80th or so (there's no clock for whatever reason) and 'castle is going for more.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well since it nearly doubles his

salary, I assume that he'd hit them for being a productive regular. The Sox are willing to pay 1M+ for bench support, as we've seen, though not for those years nor with incentives. So you should see him as a baseline utility guy with upside. In any case, he should start in AAA (or whatever level of American pitching he's ready for) because the value pays off most definitively as a starter. In order for him to become a starter, he has to learn how to become a major league hitter. Sitting on the bench isn't going to get it done, the Sox are surely aware. Unless they think he needs extra time with Walker. Which will undoubtedly work well.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i see this

as more of a sort of 3 year contract. he's going to need time to get ready for mlb. he's shown acumen (sample size alert of course) in international competitions, which are certainly played at a higher level than the cuban league, so i think he'd easily be able to start at AAA. but how soon would he be able to really help at the big league level? i think a year is reasonable.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

If we see him contribute in the Bigs in 2009 or even late-2008 (even as a quality back-up), I'd be happy. If he becomes more than that, then it's a heck of a nice deal. I like this pick-up.

by palehose67 on Dec 22, 2007 5:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i definitely agree

i think we can start to see what sort of player the Sox are expecting by putting some assumptions to work. 3 years of service for the 4.75M is still an expected yearly salary of ~1.6. What chance do you think he has of becoming a regular?

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i wouldn't want any prediction

no matter how much i caveated it, thrown back in my face ;)

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh come on,

nobody would do that! By the way, does it need to be stated that defecting from Cuba ranks pretty high on the "grindy" scale?

by palehose67 on Dec 22, 2007 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well

it's not better than playing college football. but it's pretty good.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 5:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken.

Speaking of which, I assume the ex-punter is mulling over a dozen offers, and that's why we haven't heard anything about him.

by palehose67 on Dec 22, 2007 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, also, if you assume he's

going to be in the minors for at least half the year, you know the Sox aren't going to get their value for him this year. It's more boom/bust than I made it out to be. I should have said the Sox expect the length of his contract to be worth at least 4 seasons of a super utility sort.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 22, 2007 5:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if kenny doesn't sign a CFer

isn't it possible that ramirez gets the job at spring training and starts 2008 at center?

by The Wizard on Dec 22, 2007 6:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

possible. but not recommended.

by larry on Dec 22, 2007 6:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How does one judge Cuban stats?

Cheat posted both Alexei Ramírez's and Youliesky Gourriel's stats here. They are both great hitters in Cuba with Gourriel having more power than Ramírez. But while most scouts think that Gourriel would be a stud in the MLB and that his stats would translate over well, Ramírez is not given the same treatment and some people view him as a possible backup utility guy. I know scouting isn't all about the stats but why would one guy's stats translate well to the MLB but another guy's stats even though they put up similar AVG and OBP?

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2007 8:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

"but NOT another guy's stats..."

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2007 8:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gourriel

Is significantly younger and faster than Ramirez supposedly.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 23, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Johan Santana deal expected after New Year...

According to the Boston Globe's Nick Cafardo, the Twins front office is expected to solicit "final best offers" on Johan Santana shortly after the New Year.
Cafardo goes on to say that if the Yankees don't add Ian Kennedy to their offer, which supposedly includes Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, and some other minor leaguers, the Red Sox will land Santana. Boston is still offering Coco Crisp, Jon Lester, Justin Masterson and Jed Lowrie.

Source: Boston Globe

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2007 10:24 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The Red Sox package is much better

By '09, every one of those players will likely be ready for major league starting duty.

C Mauer
1B Morneau
2B Lowrie/Casilla
SS Everett/Harris/Lowrie
3B Lamb/Harris (platoon)
LF Cuddyer
CF Crisp
RF Young
4th Pridie

Liriano
Lester
Slowey
Bonser
Baker

By '09

Liriano
Lester
Slowey
Masterson
Swarzak

Looking at the pile up in the infield, I think we'd see a trade eventually from that group. And I'm pretty sure that team is at least as good as the White Sox, with a distinct advantage in average age. The biggest unknowns are in the rotation, but they aren't exactly bad and they get much better by '09.

On the other hand, throwing out Liriano and Hughes back to back would be pretty enticing, too.

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 23, 2007 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Brewers still looking for a third baseman...

Link:

Brew Crew in the market
Brewers general manager Doug Melvin is still looking for a third baseman so he can move Rookie of the Year Ryan Braun to left field. "There are still some things we can do," Melvin said. "There are a lot of players out there looking for jobs still." Melvin could move Billy Hall to third and acquire a center fielder. Talks on Cardinals third baseman Scott Rolen never materialized, with the likelihood St. Louis did not want to deal Rolen in the division.

I would love to see a trade of Crede, Richar, and a prospect for Rickie Weeks but I don't see it happening. Weeks would make a very nice LEADOFF HITTER!!!

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2007 10:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I saw this post at another Sox board...

As I was blow drying my hair this morning, I remembered to turn on 1000- I was just in time to hear Kenny. His comments included:

He feels he's 4-for-5 this off-season in terms of acquisitions, with the miss being Hunter. He eyed Scott Linebrink months ago as the guy he wanted to see between MacDougal & Jenks, and as a means to take some of the stress off guys like Thornton & MacDougal.
An off-season goal of his was to land Carlos Quentin- not a guy like him and who possesses his skills, but actually Carlos Quentin.
He shored up the SS position with the acquisition of Cabrera.
Feels the rotation has the confidence to get through 2008 without Garland.
He said he was disappointed when he lost out on Hunter at the last minute, but knew he had to move on from there.
He's done getting "major" arms for the bullpen, as Linebrink was the only guy he saw as a good fit for the 'pen, and he admitted that he "paid dearly" for him.
Landed "that guy you may have heard discussed in the media yesterday" and he has excellent 2B, SS, and CF skills.
Ramirez will likely play CF, unless he needs to replace Richar as the starting second baseman. He can also fill in at SS when needed.
He has faith in guys like Anderson, Sweeney, & Owens, but made a play for Hunter because he wants the aforementioned guys to "get a little more seasoning" and not have so much pressure on them.
He takes one day off an off-season- Christmas.

Is Kenny pretty much saying that Alexei Ramírez will have a roster spot on opening day or am I wrong?

by SSH2005 on Dec 23, 2007 10:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It seems like it

There's been some contention on whether he'll start CF in 2008 or not. But let's face it: it isn't like, as of this moment, he has any real competition to beat out. If he has a successful spring, it wouldn't be a shock to see him start CF.

by HulkSmash on Dec 23, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

danks and mccarthy trade update

on the anniversary of the deal. for what it's worth, goldstein at BP has texas' prospects ranked and, since he's still under 25, mccarthy was included in that part of the article. he's ranked in the middle of their 3 star prospects. danks, on the other hand, is ranked in the middle of the sox' 4 star prospects.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7013

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6912

by larry on Dec 23, 2007 11:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs