The White Sox are a $100MM mid-market club

by The Cheat on Dec 5, 2007 12:44 AM CST in White Sox News

A couple of years ago, I participated in a 2006 season preview with Aaron Gleeman (now of NBC Sports), Bryan Smith (now featured on SI.com), and Rich Lederer over at Baseball Analysts. I bring this up because we touched on a number of issues which suddenly seem more pertinent. Chief among those issues was the (possible) White Sox transition into a large market ($100+MM payroll) club, the depletion of their farm system, and what those two things could mean in an increasingly competitive AL Central.

I've been thinking about that conversation a lot tonight. Looking back, there isn't a singular quote which is incredibly relevant on its own, but the general points brought up, especially in the Sox portion of the discussion, still ring true.

The White Sox missed out on their "big fish" because they refused to spend enough money on bait.

I lamented that the Sox should be wary of depleting their farm system. And while everyone agreed that the Sox had a couple of good years left in them, I cautioned that "the key will be letting go of the right guys each trading deadline and off-season."

The part of the conversation I remember most, however, was Gleeman's assertion that any AL Central team willing to spend $100+MM year-in-year-out would be perennial favorites. He was talking about the White Sox, but I wondered (to myself) what a Detroit team, which had just vowed to spend 'as much money as it takes,' and a Cleveland team with a revitalized fan base could do.

So here we sit, almost a full two years later. The White Sox farm system seems destined to be named the 29th best (2nd worst) in all of baseball. And thanks to some dubious extensions and pretty terrible middle relief signing, the only thing about the White Sox which could be considered Big Market is their payroll.

The White Sox are unwilling to pay over slot in the first-year player draft.
The White Sox are (seemingly) afraid to offer arbitration to departing free agents. (Perhaps to help limit draft costs.) The last time they had multiple extra picks thanks to arbitration they got top prospects Josh Fields and Gio Gonzalez, who fell due to unfounded character concerns. The rest of the draft was filled with overdrafts who would sign below slot (Wes Whisler, Dony Lucy, Ray Liotta.)
The White Sox have been unwilling to compete for high-dollar amateur international talent, with the SS Silveiro marking their only $300+K signing of the last 5+(?) years.
The White Sox have been unwilling to feel the wrath of the Winners Curse by shelling out top dollar to the top free agents. There hasn't been a singing of a true top-level free-agent since Albert Belle almost 10 years ago. And I haven't even brought up the name Scott Boras yet.

This is a team which has continued to act like a mid-market club with the exception of it's willingness to hand out contracts to it's soon-to-be free-agents. You could make a very convincing argument that the White Sox would be a better club today if they had practiced more fiscal responsibility with their contract extensions, forcing them to part with some of their impending free-agents through trades for prospects or by accepting the two extra draft picks which come from losing a type-A free-agent. * * * * *

Gleeman was wrong. $100M doesn't go as far as it used to. The Sox outspent the division to a 4th place finish last year, and they appear to be headed to another $100M 4th or 5th place finish this year.

Gleeman was right. You need only look as far as the Tigers to see how a properly run Big Market club should operate.

They've invested heavily in the amateur international market
They've refused to bow to Bud Selig's slotting demands in the June draft.
They've overspent when necessary on the free-agent market.

And Tuesday the Tigers used three draft picks who dropped due to signability and another international signing to add one of the best players in baseball (and Dontrelle Willis) to an already very good team. Earlier this off-season, they turned two international signings into Edgar Renteria and some cash. That's 6 players, obtained via methods to which the White Sox seem allergic, used to make an already good club better.

The Tigers acquisition of Cabrera doesn't effect the Sox as much as it initially seems. Most people around here (myself included) were extremely skeptical about the White Sox ability to make the playoffs this year. I would have put them slightly better than 5% chance to win the AL Central yesterday. The Cabrera trade takes it down under 5%, but I'd hardly call that a difference at all. Our long-shot is now a slightly longer shot.

More than the 2% change in the Sox playoff chances, this trade gives a glimpse into what could have been had the Sox truly taken the influx of new fans derived from 2005 World Series run and put those dollars to use in every way possible. Simply put, the Sox missed out on their "big fish" because they refused to spend enough money on bait.

That hurts.

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Comments

This post cuts deep.

This might be the single most succinct explanation for the decline of the White Sox. It's true. Horribly, unfortunately true.

by quartz77277 on Dec 5, 2007 12:53 AM CST reply actions

/drinks

(in a sad way)

by Hangwoofem on Dec 5, 2007 1:00 AM CST reply actions

Tip of the cap

I've written too much about the Sox today (here and at Soxtalk), but this sums up everything I've been feeling. This is one of the best pieces/entries in the two years I've been here -- it's a shame it's gotta be on a subject that, as quartz puts it, "cuts [so] deep."

It hurts real bad.

by CWSKeith on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 AM CST reply actions

Wow

I have to agree with Keith. This is one of the better summaries that I have seen. Very nicely done Cheat. And this pretty much drives a point home that is always overlooked. We have a 100m payroll, however that doesn't equate into a big market ballclub or thinking. Todays ball club is a hybrid. Its a combination of internal talent brought on through international and the traditional draft. That talent flows to the major leagues to provide low cost talent, or its flipped to acquire from a position of strength. The comments about the inability to go over slot scare me to no end about our 8 pick. We seem to make decisions in spite of ourselves that kick us in the long run. Was it that necessary to play Pods and Erstad in that last month. The sad thing is they played well enough to give us 3 more victories that impacted our draft status. A top 3 draft is hard to overdraft, but closer to 10 is a bit easier to make the argument for Danks another overdraft. Our signing of Linebrink costs us money, the inability to move him due to a non-trade clause, and a 2nd round pick. Now do you think that with the money saved on the 2nd round pick, we will go over slot. Well that would be a hell no.

We are at a crossroads as an organization. Probably a year or so too late.

Imagine if we got a near Jennings haul for Garland last year instead of OC this year.

What if we moved Dye.

I dont think that Kenny has the stones for it. The best move now would be to go to the Angels or the Diamondbacks to see what Konerko would fetch.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 1:16 AM CST up reply actions

I'd like to add

the Tigers are very much in a similar Win Now situation as the '06 Sox, and they will need to be creative in the next couple of years as that core gets really old. But I know I have much more faith in Dombrowski to be creative and Illitch to further loosen the purse strings in order for the Tigers to avoid a dire situation like the '08-'11 White Sox.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 5, 2007 1:25 AM CST reply actions

Well example A

Is that Dombrowski didnt pass over Porcello based on slot money when he fell into his lap. We couldn't pass the potato quick enough to our rivals. Here, good young projectable pitcher unfortunately he wants money.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 1:28 AM CST up reply actions

Not Really

Cabrera, Granderson, and Maggs provide a solid nucleus with Verlander, Bonderman and Robertson in the rotation also Rogers and Zumaya in the bullpen.

You can use the money freed up from Sheffield, I-Rod, Rogers, and Renteria in a couple of years to sign some quality FA's and also their minor league system will be built up again by then.

Sad to say that the Sox are screwed. Detroit is solid, Cleveland will be strong for awhile with its young guys and Minnesota will be contending again in 2010-2011. KC is young and will be strong too.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions

tigers..

Isn't Zumaya out for the season due to getting hurt removing debris in the wildfires in CA?

Did Granderson just have a career year last year? (Remember how everybody thought Grady Sizemore was the next Mickey Mantle a couple years ago?). Or was 2007 the start of something bigger for him?

Mags also had a career year. Nice to see him win a batting championship. But that's a career year for him too-- unlikely to be repeated. He might even have an Erstad-like drop off from him career year.

A lot of their guys are on the wrong side of 30 also.

by ruffster on Dec 5, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions

zumaya

out until the ASB. but obviously that could change. he has a somewhat unusual injury so picking a timeline is difficult.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

Speaking of odd injuries

Are you sure he didn't hurt himself e-mailing Carlos Zambrano's brother?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions

One thing to remember about the Tigers---

They didn't win the WS in 06. They dominated the league all season, then got to the WS and lost because their pitchers couldn't throw to bases, of all things.

They've got all thing wonderful talent on board and have come away with bupkus so far. For the sake of their franchise, they needed to sell the future to "win now." Even that doesn't guarantee it. And they've hardly sold their entire future to do it.

Dombrowski is a bright guy. He got lucky with Mags and Sheff and Pudge staying healthy and producing-- these are older players just like our guys. But that luck will run out. The difference may be their farm system is better-- and they may learn from the Sox' mistakes.

I want to be competitive too- but nobody can take 05 away from us. We won the World Series! Most of us on this board waited decades for it. It still feels good to say it.

by ruffster on Dec 5, 2007 10:21 AM CST up reply actions

Uribe to Nats

The Nationals and White Sox are talking a trade that would send Juan Uribe to the Nationals for possible Saul Rivera and a minor leaguer.

http://mlb-rumors.blogspot.com/

by tbone328 on Dec 5, 2007 1:29 AM CST reply actions

Rivera

You'd all do yourself a favor to not look at his K/BB ratio. He does seem to have a pretty good homerun rate, though -- only five homers allowed in his past 150+ innings. Cripes -- the dude pitched 93 (!) innings last year and came into 85 games. None of them were starts.

Whatever... more important is getting that money back so we can waste it on whoever.

by CWSKeith on Dec 5, 2007 1:39 AM CST up reply actions

It would be better not to get anything back

If the get Rivera in the trade, they'll feel compelled to give him job in the pen. And the pen would be stronger without him in it. The Sox should pull a NBA move and just waive after the acquire him....

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 1:43 AM CST up reply actions

Whatever

if that's what they got back, so be it. Obviously ERA isn't the best way to evaluate a pitcher going forward but he's managed to keep his ERA in the mid-3s the past two seasons. The most important thing at this point should be ridding ourselves of the ~$10 million currently tied up in players (Uribe, Crede) who don't figure to have a starting spot for next season.

At this point I'm just holding out for some freaking excitement. I don't know if 'excitement' can be equated with 'doing what's right for the organization', but I'd be lying if I woke up to news that the Sox inked Jones or Fukodome and said I wasn't excited. A Fukodome-Cabrera-Thome-Konerko-Dye-Pierzynski-Fields-Quentin-Richar lineup is an exciting one -- probably a third or fourth place lineup in our division, but that's a good mix right there. Anything else -- mainly talking about Rowand here -- bores me.

by CWSKeith on Dec 5, 2007 2:02 AM CST up reply actions

Fukudome

I'd like to see him play, so I'd be excited by that as well.

The other thing is that if he really does just want 3 years, it shouldn't be an albatross contract in the future. Plus, it would be buying talent that could eventually be traded (hopefully) at some point. And his OBP would be good for the Sox.

Unfortunately, it sounds like he's lock for the Cubs.

If you could tell me that 2007 Rowand would be signing a deal with the Sox and not 2006 Rowand, I'd be happy about that as well...

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 2:17 AM CST up reply actions

Juan Urine for Saul Rivera and a minor leaguer...

How is this a bad trade? We get to dump Juan Urine and his $4.5 million dollar salary and also acquire a decent reliever and a minor leaguer. Saul Rivera put up damn good minor league stats and decent major league stats. I don't see how this would be a bad trade, unless we are picking up some of Urine's salary... which I doubt.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:25 AM CST up reply actions

I didn't say it was a bad trade

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 9:19 AM CST up reply actions

It would be a good trade

because we'd get Uribe's contract off the books. But I wouldn't count on much from Rivera. All those years in the minors, he never learned how to throw strikes. His whip in the majors is awful. And while his major league era is fine, you should look at the home-away splits and remember what park he's been pitching in half the time. He's a marginal major leaguer even in our bullpen.

But still, the main thing is clearing the $4 mil or so.

by jackie hayes on Dec 5, 2007 1:23 PM CST up reply actions

Does Kenny have a hard time with reality

He said he wouldnt go after a guy like Jones because he isnt a OBP guy, even though Jone's number's eclipse Torii's.

Now he makes comments that Quentin is Chicago Tough.

Yet....

Quentin, acquired Monday from Arizona, revealed he has sought counseling to help combat the stress he has placed on himself.

"I've taken steps in the past to alleviate any internal stress the game creates," Quentin told the East Valley Tribune in Mesa, Ariz. "I've tried to use every advantage to prepare myself. I have certain people I talk to, mental coaches. I've definitely taken steps to develop the physical and the mental."

Now I like Quentin and was happy with the trade, and I hope that he gets the pucker factor under control. But how does one describe him as Chicago tough and then we find out he is under therapy for pucker factor. Just a question.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 1:40 AM CST reply actions

It's pretty clear

The Sox player evaluation skills are terrible. As much as I like the idea of acquiring Quentin, the fact that Byrnes dealt him and KW acquired him makes me think the trade will end up being a losing deal at this point.

Kenny was probably wowed by all the HBPs that Quentin takes and assumed he was a tough guy. It's in the same vein of wanting to give Hunter a big contract (OBP be damned) because he knocked the snot out of Burke one game in 2004.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 1:48 AM CST up reply actions

has sought counseling to help combat the stress

This shows STRENGTH not weakness.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 6:49 AM CST up reply actions

Bally: Optimist AND Voice of Reason!!!

Good on you!

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2007 9:11 AM CST up reply actions

Thanks, and remember -

"The game of LIFE (substitute any SPORT for LIFE) is played on a 2 1/2 X 2 1/2 inch square between your ears."

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:16 AM CST up reply actions

bally = Carl Rogers

+ Drill Instructor.

Only 2 THANGS come from Chicago! Steers and Strong, Sensitive Men Who Acknowledge Their Weaknesses And Seek Professional Help! I don't see no horns on you, so you must be a Strong, Sensitive Man!

2008 - The Final Solution

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions

Sox

Things might look crappy now, but isn't fielding a competitive team in order to continue attracting big crowds as big a priority as any? At this point, I would trade Konerko to get a couple more young guns, but I wouldn't trade everyone with a world series ring just yet. I want to see a new CF and I want to see the Sox in it for most of the year. If "rebuilding" equates with winning 75 games until 2010, then I'd rather watch the game at Shinnik's than buy tickets. We may not have won it all in 2006, but it sure as hell was a lot funner of a season than 2007, where we got pooped on by the Cubs.

Baseball's about the little things, like beer, brats, and b*tches. But it's about the fans as well. Chances are, we're not winning crap until 2048 or whatever. I just want to see a decent team give its best shot.

It's really depressing when you're at Schaller's after a loss, and the old lady next to the keyboard is singing "Big Spender" while you're sucking down an Old Style.

by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 2:43 AM CST reply actions

Dammit

Even the Royals blog has fans thinking that our front office is inept and that they may finish ahead of us this season. I am not happy.

by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 3:30 AM CST reply actions

Well said Cheat.

Totally off topic question. Who plays third in Florida next season? Maybe send Crede to Heaven's waiting room? I doubt they'd want him, but the question remains who fills MC's spot on the depth chart.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 4:36 AM CST reply actions

crede would probably

double their payroll. i don't think so.

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:20 AM CST up reply actions

on mike and mike

this morning, they were talking about how the marlins payroll might be somewhere in the 10 million dollar range this year... kevin gregg now makes the most on the team at 575K.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:22 AM CST up reply actions

correction

he makes near 2.5 mil.... but still, thats nothing.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:29 AM CST up reply actions

that's not right

he doesn't have a contract for next year at this point

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions

as far as i know

the only player the marlins actually have under a contract for next year is andrew miller. obviously they have a whole potential roster full of players who are under control. but no contracts.

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:34 AM CST up reply actions

thank you

for clearing that up. where do you find your contractual information at???

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:38 AM CST up reply actions

i use cot's contracts

but i remember reading on BP last month about how the marlins had no players under contract and i know miller signed a contract through 2008. and i'm pretty sure (didn't check) that the marlins haven't signed anyone, free agent or already under their control.

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions

That's what I figured.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions

Very good post Cheat

It was just a terrible day for the White Sox yesterday. Everything that has gone wrong with this organization came to a head yesterday, and it's hard to stomach.

by Tony82087 on Dec 5, 2007 6:50 AM CST reply actions

2010

is the year we need to shoot for now. The Tigers have only a one or two year window right now. We should dump PK for kids (and hope they are the right kids) and just get young in general. Does Dye have a no trade???

by spadog on Dec 5, 2007 7:28 AM CST reply actions

JD

[cot's]:

Jermaine Dye of
2 years/$22M (2008-09), plus 2010 mutual option

* signed extension 8/18/07
* 08:$9.5M, 09:$11.5M, 10:$12M mutual option ($1M buyout)
* full no-trade clause in 2008
* limited no-trade clause in 2009 (Dye may block deals to 6 clubs)

by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 7:17 PM CST up reply actions

Fully agree

But let's forget about the Tigers for a moment and take a look at what the Twins are doing this winter.

They let an aging Hunter walk after scoffing at his ridiculous demands, and will net 2 first round picks.
They convert surplus talent into Delmon Young, who has the potential to be a premier hitter.
They put Santana on the block during the winter after scoffing at his demands. They'll get an excellent haul of major league ready young talent under control.
They'll do the same with Nathan.

They've freed up a ton of cash to lock up their core of Morneau, Mauer, Young and Liriano. So not only are we fucked trying to compete with Detroit and Cleveland the next two years, we're totally screwed trying to compete with the Twins after that.

MN took a realistic view of what they're older players could produce down the road, and waved them goodbye instead paying foolish money for them. Instead of converting assets to youth, we trade for one year of redundant SSs and hand out extensions like candy to lock up downslopers.

And now here comes KC too. We have the worst front office in the division, very discouraging.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 7:38 AM CST reply actions

Great Post, Great Site

Even though the last two days have been filled with ups and downs about KW, i wanted to say that I really am I glad I started Reading and posting with you guys. I recently moved to cleveland becasue of a job opportunity during the Indians playoff run, and I wanted to do nothing but talk about white sox baseball, but had no one to do it with. Finding this site has alleviated that need and its great to be able to disect and discuss all of the sox plans with the fans who actually know the team. keep up the great work people.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 7:49 AM CST reply actions

thanks

that cheers me up....the Twins will always be the Twins and I just expect them to be very good every year.

by spadog on Dec 5, 2007 7:51 AM CST reply actions

White Sox offer for Miguel Cabrera...

Link:

The Sox would have included Fields in a trade for Cabrera, along with a pair of young starters from the group of John Danks, Gio Gonzalez and Lance Broadway.

Read the full article for some lame excuses by Kenny and Ozzie.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:32 AM CST reply actions

sounds like a loser to me...

"We have to try to be the best team we can be,'' he said

i mean its early and all, but that is the battle cry for teams that know they are done. cmon KW, work some magic for once.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 8:35 AM CST up reply actions

I guess it was a four prospect offer for Cabrera..

Link:

He finally offered details of how the four-prospect deal the Sox offered for Cabrera fell short.

My guess is that the fourth prospect was Ryan Sweeney.

Josh Fields
Two of John Danks / Gio Gonzalez / Lance Broadway
Ryan Sweeney

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:43 AM CST up reply actions

re

"We have to try to be the best team we can be,'' he said

are the Sox joining the army?

by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 7:24 PM CST up reply actions

Not a good morning

when SSH2005's comment is the easiest on Kenny Williams.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 8:34 AM CST reply actions

Fukudome

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/ny-spbase055488346dec05,0,6452448.story

according to that article, fukudome has narrowed his choices to the royals and cubs....ouch.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 8:46 AM CST up reply actions

My money is on the Royals geting him

If this is the 2 final teams...

by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 8:48 AM CST up reply actions

That would mean

we move on to.......let's see.......yeah, Plan 14 P.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions

I am going to convert Tony82087 soon enough. ; )

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:57 AM CST up reply actions

Kenny promised Buehrle and Dye some big fish...

when they re-signed with the White Sox. The big fish were apparently Torii Hunter and Miguel Cabrera. Dye apparently called Kenny after the Tigers acquired both Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis...

Link:

Less than a minute after listening to that message and doing his best to shake off the standing eight-count, Williams got a call from Sox outfielder Jermaine Dye asking what happened.

Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:37 AM CST reply actions

Report: Yanks turned down Kennedy-less deal

According to the New York Daily News, the Yankees turned down a trade for Johan Santana that would have sent Phil Hughes, Melky Cabrera, Jeff Marquez and Mitch Hilligoss to Minnesota.
Previous speculation was that the Yankees balked at including Ian Kennedy along with Hughes and Cabrera, but the newspaper reports that general manager Brian Cashman turned down a deal that didn't include Kennedy at all. According to the report, Cashman "never wanted to do the Santana deal in the first place" and became even less interested once Andy Pettitte was re-signed. If true, that would explain why Hank Steinbrenner stuck to his self-imposed deadline and might indicate that the Yankees are truly out of the Santana mix.

Source: New York Daily News

Wow, I have a hard time believing that the Yankees turned down this trade.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:56 AM CST reply actions

Back to Andruw Jones

Anyone think the lack of a market for Jones has anything to do with the Mitchell report? Yeah, he's declined some and is coming off an awful year, but that could be due to no longer using steroids (and becoming fat because of it).

He's still much better then Torii Hunter, and most intelligent baseball GM's would know this. His decline coincides with the steroid ban, he's clearly become out of shape and guys are afraid to give him anything close to market value.

Boras and a decline in stats might scare some guys (Ken. Williams.), but not enough to turn down a 30 year old hall of famer when guys like Torii Hunter are getting paid 90 million. If they did know he was a user, they would know he's not going to ever get back to what he was, and they'd know he is possibly going to be suspended at some point. His OBP and K Rate clearly is not the reason the Sox don't want him, that'd make no sense considering any other move we've made.

by Grinder in Training on Dec 5, 2007 9:05 AM CST reply actions

Last year's #'s, Boras, maybe steroids.

Not much else can explain it.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:11 AM CST up reply actions

not really

Boras likes to have others set the market. More often than not he waits for others to sign so the sandbox is all his.

by southsideirish on Dec 5, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions

Possible Next Moves?

Any ideas or speculations on any possible moves the white sox might make next?
*Do they attempt to trade Konerko, ala Bruce Levines prediction? if so, potential suitors?
*throw the everything including the kitchen sink at Fukudome?
*sign Rowand? (no thanks)

i can see williams going for rowand now as plan Q-82, with what he feels would be a fan-pleasing move. although, most of us in here are in agreement, that it would be an awful move.

your thoughts?

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:10 AM CST reply actions

Trade for Crisp

My prediction is that the Sox trade prospects for Coco Crisp.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions

pukes

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:29 AM CST up reply actions

Please NO NO NO.

I predict Andruw Jones. 1 or 2 years, just pay pay up.

I hear Boras has been seen at sensitivity training classes since he upset Alex and Kenny Rogers.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:30 AM CST up reply actions

no no no no no!

pleaaaaasssseeee don't give up anything for Crisp.

If the Red Sox don't cough up Ellsbury in a trade, they are stuck with Crisp. I wouldn't give up anything of value for him anyway-- especially now. Owens is a better bet for the future than Crisp.

by ruffster on Dec 5, 2007 11:02 AM CST up reply actions

KW is a step behind all of these GMs

We keep hearing that we are not going through 2007 again and how aggressive things are going to be. THUD! It's going to happen again. KW is an idiot.

by LVSoxFan on Dec 5, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions

It sounds like Crede is headed to the Brewers...

Quoted from SoxTalk:

The Brewers are having an active day. According to a club official, the club has worked out a contract for free-agent righthander David Riske, who will get a chance to be Milwaukee's closer. In addition, the Brewers are close to obtaining third baseman Joe Crede from the Chicago White Sox. With the addition of Crede, the Brewers could move NL rookie of the year Ryan Braun to left field. Braun had severe defensive problems at third.

Here's another link about the Brewers interest in Crede.

My prediction was Crede to the Brewers for Matt Wise. If the trade is Crede + other(s) for Bill Hall I would be ecstatic and shocked.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:29 AM CST reply actions

I'd love Bill Hall

but I doubt it will happen. I'm a Brewer fan as well, so I'd love to see Crede go there.

From what I hear, there is no way Braun plays 3rd next year.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Dec 5, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions

Other teams love him too...

From Rotoworld:

The Los Angeles Times quotes "a major league source" as saying that the Dodgers have talked to the Brewers about Bill Hall.

After missing out on Miguel Cabrera, general manager Ned Colletti is clearly pursuing other third base options. In addition to Hall, the Dodgers are said to be in the mix for Scott Rolen, Troy Glaus and Tadahito Iguchi. They have the young talent and money to acquire just about anyone who's available, so it's a matter of Colletti pulling the trigger.

by BoKnows on Dec 5, 2007 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

If you really think 2010

Is the earliest we can compete - then we should move Jenks and PK... Jenks would probably bring in the best haul of young talent. My only fear would be the reality of what we actually would get. Sadly this is one of those you don't want to ever see the guy leave, but the reality is, it appears the team is in such disarray that you need to do whatever you can so that you can have sustained success - even if you have to forfeit some short term "marketed" success.

The thing that amazes me is KW always talks about is 3 year board - however there never truly seems to be a 3 year plan. Just reaction to short term events... such as Dye being a free agent (even though he knew this would be a reality when he signed him initially). There truly appears that there was no plan for when Dye would be leaving. Just a hope that Sweeney or Owens might work out, no actual indication this would actualy happen.

Then there is the seemingly evident lack of internal communication. Jone's really demonstrates this. Ozzie keeps harping about one style of team - KW keeps delivering on another. Even Cabrera would have added another slow footed heavy bat to the lineup. (Though an extremely good one) Opposite of what Ozzie keeps saying he wants.

Seems to me this franchise needs new leadership - I hope I'm wrong. I was willing to give KW through this year to show that '05 was not pure luck, but more and more it appears that way.

Regardless - they already have my money for next year. At least the lines will be short.

On a different topic - does anyone know how the season ticket renewal was for the Sox this year?

by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 9:31 AM CST reply actions

I have a feeling

that trading Konerko was part of Plan 1A and Plan 1B.

I think that now, unfortunately, they'll keep him (a fan favorite) under the guise of competing this year.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions

Sox offer Rowand 4-year, $55 million contract...

according to Bruce LeVineLine of ESPN 1000. Also according to LeVineLine, the Sox are interested in David DeJesus.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:54 AM CST reply actions

please reject it

that would just be a horrendous waste of money to MAYBE make the team a few wins better.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions

great

i'm sure rowand wants to be another guy manning the pumps on a sinking ship.

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions

This is the predicted splash that the White Sox...

pretty much had to make in the eyes of their fans after the Cabrera/Willis trade. Too bad it's for Rowand and not Jones. ; (

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions

id rather

see them save that 14 mil for the future and play JO in CF for 300 somethin thousand....

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

save for the future?

who knows whether that'd be accurate. at any rate, i'd just prefer to see some semblance of sanity from the franchise - even if it's simply realizing that you're not going to compete so cut your losses. hell, let jerry play. he real, real fast. maybe he surprises everyone and becomes a decent player. and starting him would cause more people to come to his BR page. 3838 and counting...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtml

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:05 AM CST up reply actions

They should

Take the Rowand money and invest Euro-denominated funds. Hedge their bets.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions

Another draft pick would be gone

We would have the 1st round, then wait until the 4th round to draft. Obviously Kenny is paying attention to what has been going on in Nashville. The other teams, are using prospects as chips. Now if we were to go over slot allocation on our first rounder sure. But you know damn well that Bud Seligs buddy isnt going to pay over slot for our first rounder. If anything, we will look for our diamond in the rough and pick up Danks. Kenny will say in the press conference that Danks is a "ballplayer" This new catch phrase for okay talented.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 10:13 AM CST up reply actions

Signing A Jones = NO LOST DRAFT PICKS.

Swallow the pride, Kenny.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:15 AM CST up reply actions

signing no one = NO LOST DRAFT PICKS.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions

No, no

The Sox can afford to be picky -- no Boras clients for them.

And in actuality, paying anyone at this time is dumb. So I don't think they should sign Jones. I would have liked Fukudome, just to see him play, but I guess I'll see enough of him given that he will still be in Chicago.

Kenny needs pack up, go concentrate on building up the Sox scouting and development. Take the Hunter money and invest it in that.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:18 AM CST up reply actions

Why would you want Andruw Jones?

Kenny told me that his OBP sucks. That's why we need Rowand...

Aaron Rowand (career line): .286 AVG / .343 OBP / .462 SLG / .805 OPS
Andruw Jones (career line): .263 AVG / .342 OBP / .497 SLG / .839 OPS

That extra .001 point of OBP is awesome. Kenny is a moron.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:26 AM CST up reply actions

why would we want jones on a short deal?

make it to 80 wins? pointless signing no matter what other circumstances you want to cite.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions

But something will happen

The Sox will make a move. They'll sign someone or trade for someone. I don't see them folding up shop, which wold be the logical thing to do. If a FA signing precludes the trade of Gio for Crisp, maybe that's good.

This is like watching a slow-motion car crash. Ugh.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions

But it proves that Kenny is even dumber...

than most people think.

Let's assume that Kenny is still convinced that the White Sox can compete in 2008, which seems to be a good assumption. Apparently, Kenny thinks that Rowand would be a better acquisition than Jones to compete in 2008. My main point is that Kenny is a moron and this proves it.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions

four years of rowand

is smarter than one year of jones.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:34 AM CST up reply actions

Please explain.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions

Why are you assuming that the contract offer...

to Andruw Jones would have to be one year instead of four? That is false logic.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions

false logic?

not sure how that relates. jones, presuming he comes back strong next year - you seem to think that's a safe assumption and i think many would agree - should get a long deal for lots of dollars. next year's free agent market for CF, in contrast to this year, is ridiculously weak. boras is a smart man.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 AM CST up reply actions

I guess we will find out the number of years...

when Andruw Jones signs.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

Jones

Does not solve the leadoff spot and is a roid user. Period.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions

Two ridiculous comments in one post...

I'm impressed. Another "leadoff spot" comment -- sounds like something that Ozzie would say. Yeah, Jerry Owens would be a better leadoff hitter than Andruw Jones because he has more speed and would fit the leadoff spot better. As far as the roid comment, I won't even bother to respond to that crap.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 AM CST up reply actions

it didn't take long!

someone commented SSH isn't hard on kenny today

by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 7:40 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah

I like how "grinder" has now become "ballplayer". And I agree, I think Jordan Danks is the Sox draft pick. Kenny is a pit-bull -- doesn't stop to he acquires the guy he wants....

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:16 AM CST up reply actions

...even if its 5 years later

by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 10:18 AM CST up reply actions

Kenny is in full spin mode

They just had a snippet from him where he says that its not the best offense or best pitching that wins, its the best team. A team that brings it everyday.

by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions

ROFL, what a loser.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:26 AM CST up reply actions

Did he specify what "it" is?

That they have to bring everyday? Because if it's something small and got lost in the back seat of Konerko's car on the way to the park last year, that would explain a lot. I bet that happened when Erstad got hurt and he could no longer bring "it".

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions

Whatever "it" is

We need it. We will embrace it. We will love it and call it George.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:15 AM CST up reply actions

Bill Clinton

will define "it" for Kenny.

by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

Isn't it starting to hurt, lar,

blowing yoruself so much re: JO? You are one flexible dude!

;)

2008 - The Final Solution

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions

it's a running joke now

i think we need a bit of humor on here at this point.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

This is embarassing for the franchise

Seriously, stop pretending to compete and start building a better organization.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions

I'm ok with this

It's not a bad offer and I do like Rowand, but I'd also prefer to keep the draft pick and sign Andruw Jones. Either way, if Fuko is really to the Cubs, you have to atleast make an offer to Rowand.

Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Dec 5, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions

I guess I don't get it.

Monday, this board was super positive. A good / great trade for Quentin and it was assumed that Cabrera was going to the West Coast.

Not 1 mention on the Quentin acquisition thread of a Sox megatrade for Cabrera!

He goes instead to Detroit instead.

Now TOTAL DESPONDENCY.

Still a lot of time left. And remember, THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 AM CST reply actions

what's not to get?

most people don't look at the big picture or think long-term. you know, just like the white sox organization doesn't.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions

I'm more disappointed

By the signs of complete disarray in the Sox organization: Ozzie not knowing what Kenny wants to do, the revelation that Williams was willing to trade Broadway plus another prospect for 2 months of Linebrink in 2007 when the Sox were dead already. Things like that...

And, as much as getting Cabrera may have been a bad idea, if that was Williams plan he pursued it very poorly. If he knew last season he wanted to get him, he should have been trading for prospects to use to acquire him. I be happier if the Sox were pursuing a plan I didn't like but were at least doing it competently.

And, it is irrational, but I am disappointed about the Sox getting outbid on Fukudome.

by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions

Who was super-positive?

We got Quentin Crisp, woohoo.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

Lots of optimism. Read the posts.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions

Couple things Kenny has done

Why resign Dye for that massive amount of $$?
Why resign Uribe before you make a trade of Cabrera? I would have waited all winter to get another SS before have to succumb to signing that jelly donut. Nobody would have signed him anytime soon.
Why trade the only bargaining chip we really had in Garland for an aging 33-year old SS who is under contract for 1-year?
Why trade Crede now when his stock is at an all time low?
4 years, $19 million for a 32-year old reliever??
Can this team get any older?

I cried myself to sleep last night...this franchise has turned into the 90's version of the Royals.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions

Brewers sign RHP Riske to three-year deal...

Brewers agreed to terms with RHP David Riske on a three-year, $13 million contract.
The three-year deal could be worth up to $20 million based on incentives tied to closing games and also includes a $4.75 million option for 2011. Riske is likely to enter the season in a setup role, but could compete with Derrick Turnbow for ninth-inning duties if the Brewers fail to bring in another closer option. A Type B free agent, the Royals will receive a supplemental first-round pick for losing Riske.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 AM CST reply actions

Just a question.

Has a large market team ever (in the last 25 years) really "blown the team up," valuable pieces for prospects?

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 AM CST reply actions

Absolutely

But what valuable pieces are talking about? The Sox don't have any.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions

Thanks

for the "Absolutely." Who and when?

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

how do you define large market?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:55 AM CST up reply actions

You decide.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 11:02 AM CST up reply actions

no thanks

you asked the question.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions

NYs, LAs, CHIs, BOS, DET, PHIL, ATL.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 11:10 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe SF.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions

Houston and Arlington/Dallas...

and Washington and Miami are larger markets (population-wise) than Atlanta and Detroit.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions

Absolutely 2

Cubs did after 2004. Cleveland (I would consider large market because of the # of fans they drew) in the late 90's. Seattle, Oakland and Florida in recent years. Baltimore (90's) Mets after 2000.

I guess it depends on your def. of large market.

That could be only 5-7 teams or could be a much larger group.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

Do you

really consider what the Cubs did, blowing it up though?

I guess I perceive it more as making some moves to contend that completely blew up in their faces (Lee trade being the exception)and their middling to terrible records the next three seasons gave people the impression that they were starting over.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:20 AM CST up reply actions

Cubs basically blew it up

They got young again, rebuilt their bullpen, added some starters - more like a roster overhaul.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 11:26 AM CST up reply actions

they made two trades

sosa was one. i'll give you that. a set-up man? not sure i'd call it "blowing up." especially considering their payroll declined by all of $3.5MM.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

The 2000 Mets are probably best analogy

Almost got to the mountaintop and fell short. Wasted a lot of money pretending they didn't miss their chance, then faced the facts and blew it all up to start all over again. We're still in denial, but I think that'll change after yesterday's revelation of the failure of Operation Barbarossa.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions

What about our "white flag" trade?

By definition that was the "No mas" era of the Sox.

2008 - The Final Solution

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

Only...

if you count the obvious WU. hehe

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions

Well, call me Capt. Obvious, then

The best roadmap for successful behavior is your own past success. We did OK with the WF trade within a few years, right?

Blow it up, Vol II. The war's over. Wermer dropped the big one.

2008 - The Final Solution

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions

Just a question.

Has a team with a $ 100+ mil. payroll ever finished in last place?

by White Sox Randy on Dec 5, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions

I'm not sure...

why everyone is so despondent today. I think the White Sox dodged something of a bullet when they didn't get a chance to trade Josh Fields and Gio Gonzalez away for Miguel Cabrera. Fields and Gonzalez are exactly the kind of players the Sox should be holding onto, not used as trade bait.

I hope that Ken Williams wakes up, and realises that no matter what he does this winter, this team is not going to compete for the playoffs. It's not going to compete for the playoffs in 2009, either. It's time to look towards the future.

Get rid of some of this salary. Trade Konerko. See if Thome will waive his no-trade clause for the right deal. Move Javier Vazquez. When you've got the pieces to contend again, then you can add payroll again.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:08 AM CST reply actions

they're despondent

because reality - the same one that's been there for months - is finally sinking in.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions

Speak not for the masses larry

Speak for thee. I believe (if, in fact, you are correct) seeing the Twins, Tigers, Royals, and (perhaps) Cubs all improve while we are holding our collective unit in our collective hand, all within a week's time, pretty much rips any facade off the mess we have been this past season and, worse, are going to remain for the foreseeable future.

Dat's what I tink.

2008 - The Final Solution

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions

a bit redundant

most of us have been saying this, but kenny doesnt want to admit that its to to blow it up. and even if he wanted to, who is going to give us any value for jim thome, jermaine dye, and any of these other guys without us having to pay some of there contracts?

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions

Dye...

has very little trade value(neither does Pierzynski or Contreras ), but I think a few teams would be interested in the one year remaining on Jim Thome's contract. And as I said, Javier Vazquez has some value, too. The Sox could move Orlando Cabrera, too, maybe pick up a young guy or two for him.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions

Even if they have to eat

some of the contract, it would still free the Sox up to start acquiring talent and by the time they were ready to compete, guys like Thome and Dye would be off the books. It's not a cure-all, but it's a start.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions

people

are criticizing KW for taking the path most wanted him to. go after free agents. make some trades. sure we can compete in 2008. now that KW (apparently) isn't able to achieve this, all of the sudden, it's blow up the team. well, you all should have been saying that last month when it mattered. the fans sent KW on a fool's errand and are now ripping on him for not completing it. big surprise.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions

Exactly what I was thinking...

I was quite alone around here when I suggested blowing things up a couple of months ago. Everyone said that that they would burn down Comiskey if Williams gave up on 2008.

Now Williams is being ripped apart for doing exactly what people wanted him to do.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:21 AM CST up reply actions

i dont know

didnt KW already make the decision last season when he chose to extend buehrle and dye instead of trading them at the deadline?? the fans didnt decide anything, ultimately it comes down to KW and Reinsdorf.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:23 AM CST up reply actions

and what were the fans saying about MB?

can't say i recall people demanding he be traded.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions

i was

but i dont really count. i know you dont mean ALL fans, but since when are baseball decisions based on what fans want?? i know they make a huge part of the teams revenue, but lets face it, fans are going to go to the park regardless. whether mark buehrle is on the mound or matt kemp is roaming the OF.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:28 AM CST up reply actions

regardless?

not sure the numbers bear that assertion out. and since when are baseball decisions made by the fans? again, i'd say there's a pretty strong correlation there.

maybe it was wrong to listen to the fans. but it's also disingenuous for fans to be crucifying the organization for doing what they wanted.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions

And why did he do that?

Because the fans made it clear that they wouldn't watch a rebuilding team. Any suggestion of trading Dye or Buehrle before the 2007 season (when they still had trade value) was met with sharpening of sickels and readying of torches.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions

ok

then why even have a GM?? why not just have online polls for fans to decide every move? thats the stupidest reasoning i've ever heard.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions

You're missing my point...

entirely.

Ken Williams isn't making moves in a vacuum. He isn't Billy Beane or Terry Ryan - the White Sox are in a major market, so he has to make moves to keep butts in seats.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions

This is true, which is why you will never....

...see him rebuild. I laugh at when people say "Why can't our GM come out and say we are totally rebuilding like Beane always does?"

Oakland knows they have nothing to lose. They don't have anyone in the stands when they are winning, so if they see the future doesn't look bright, they can rebuild and know they aren't hurting much of a fan base.

KW still has the World Series fans to work off of. The off-season continues like it is, and we have a season like it looks like we are going to have, he is going to lose them and then you might see a rebuild project take place.

by Tony82087 on Dec 5, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions

no i see your point

it just puzzles me that he thinks a very old, slow, station to station 75 win team is going to keep the butts in the seats over a younger, more exciting, less expensive, 75 win team.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions

most fans are ridiculous.

most fans listen to (and believe) hawk and dj and read (and believe) merkin and the other bs. even late last season, people in the stands were still gonzo about pods, for crying out loud.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions

And why wouldn't they?

That prancing gait, those long legs striding through the warm summer air, the perfectly razed five o'clock shadow. A left field should be so lucky.

BTW love the sig Toonder!

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

i guess

im looking at this situation from too much of a baseball prospective instead of a business one.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions

what people miss

is that the two are not mutually exclusive. i read/heard way too much of the "the sox will lose the fan base they picked up if they stink again in 2008." well, sure, there will be a loss of fans. but a misguided attempt to "compete" in 2008 - by trading prospects and adding payroll - is likely to fuck the team for longer than 2008. imagine how many fans the sox will have if they suck in 2008, 2009, 2010.... take a short-term loss for a long-term gain. but i (and others) got shouted down.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions

agreed

no beef here with what you said. it just sucks that we cant develop more players this year for the coming years because they are road blocked by expensive veterans.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions

which players are that?

unless you're talking about acquiring players, i don't see anyone who will be blocked. richar and danks and fields will all get/continue their shot. it's not like we have guys in AAA pounding on the door.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:05 PM CST up reply actions

oops

you got me there, i forgot that we have the 2nd worst farm system, silly me....
and now the picture is more clear, we have crap and nothing else, so it has to be played because KW wants to keep butts in the seats, and if average joe fan read in the paper that the team is rebuilding, he or she wont come to the park. i think the light bulb just turned on.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions

"the fans sent KW on a fool's errand"

Not these fans (SSS posters). Almost without exception the mood was "to blow it up."

But it was clear (months ago) that the Sox were not going to do that. I don't think that happens often in situations with 25,000+ season tickets. It's business.

They were blind to the failure of their player development, for whatever reason. They have made moves recently, hopefully it's much improved.

We've been evolved into lemons (in the short term). Williams is trying to make lemonade.

Expecting them to "to blow it up" is insanity. It is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

Fans forcing his hand is Bullshit

He had his chance to blow it up last summer, especially in June when the team cratered vs. the weakling NL Central. If ever there were a moment in time where fan sentiment would have allowed him to start getting rid of everyone, that was it.

Instead he re-signed MB and JD with the promise of some Operation Barbarossa, and now we find out what this ultra-secret master plan was. And now he's bogged down in Stalingrad. This has nothing to do with fan pressure, this is the direction he wanted to go.

So now we're stuck with an aging downsloping roster that costs a ton of money and is in no position to compete, and a minor league system ranked 29th in baseball. This falls squarely on his shoulders, he deserves every bit of the heat he's getting and will be getting.

This was KW's plan, and he's the one who failed to execute it.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions

without exception, huh

that's why the offseason plan i posted received such a rousing endorsement, eh? and people were listing out all the free agents - jones, fukudome, colon, garcia, so on - that the sox should be pursuing. quite a plan to blow things up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions

C'mon Larry

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. KW painted himself into a corner once he committed to keeping MB and JD. He couldn't blow it up after doing that.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions

if you say so

i'm not sure what you mean by "couldn't." he could have traded garland for prospects. he could have not signed linebrink. he could have not pursued various free agents and trades. he could have simply stood pat. but that's not what he did.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions

Well, at least we know what Plan 1A was now

I mean, the cats out of the bag now. So this was the big master plan:

Sign Hunter (but only at a fair CWS price)
Trade Garland for Orlando Cabrera/Linebrink
Trade the entire minor league system for the other Cabrera

So that was it? That was gonna do it? Really?

I don't really care that we didn't sign Hunter or Miguel Cabrera. What I'm really upset about is that they've made some really stupid decisions (Garland for OC, Linebrink) all based upon trying to pull off such a half-baked plan. Any way you look at this, KW's moves are really indefensible.

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions

i wouldn't call it that half-baked

the sox seemingly had what ended up being the second-best offer on the table for hunter. and everything points to the sox being the winner of that pursuit until the angels dropped in. garland and linebrink speak for themselves. cabrera? maybe it was misguided there. i don't know. i'm not that impressed with the package the marlins got and, if KW really wanted to, i think the sox had a reasonable belief that they could get beat it. maybe not. at any rate, the "plan" seemed predicated on everything going right. that never happens.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions

delete 'get' in third to last sentence

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions

quarter-baked

So he improves our offense, great. Uh, dude, our pitching sucked too, and now you've gotten rid of Garland? And in the meantime you blew out our minor league system for two years of Cabrera?

"We can stay with Jerry Owens in center field...So we've got a lot of flexibility" - Kenny Williams

by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

How, in any way, would it have mattered

if more people called for blowing up this team a month ago?

by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions

there sure would be less whining now

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe

but that wouldn't change the fact that this team is in dire straights. KW has been in misguided championship mode since July with the resigning of Mark and August with reuping with Dye.

by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions

so have the fans

KW isn't alone by any means.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions

What does that even mean?

Are you referring to the unquantifiable mentality of the average White Sox fan or posters on SSS? KW is responsible and accountable for the direction of the team--regardless of whatever fans you're referring to.

Nonetheless, it still doesn't answer why you feel that if more fans (average fans or SSS posters) had called for blowing up this team a mere month ago it would have mattered.

by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

if you don't think fan/media sentiment matters

i guess we have nothing to discuss.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions

Larry, you're dismissing questions I never asked

I never lumped the media into the question and I never said anything close to fan sentiment not mattering.

You stated that (undefined) fans should have called for blowing up the team a month ago when it mattered. I just want to know why you think such a groundswell would have had any effect on KW in early November after already resigning MB, JD, and AJ.

by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions

so you say fan sentiment does matter

and then proceed to ask me what effect fan sentiment would have had last month. i don't know how to proceed with this.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions

Where did I say that fan sentiment does matter?

I've not opinioned any type of statement about fan sentiment to you. Rather, I've refuted your initial claim that I said fan sentiment didn't matter.

I'd merely like a better explanation on why you feel an 11th hour swell of fan sentiment for blowing up the team would have possibly restrained KW this offseason after he cast the dye by resigned the aforementioned players?

by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions

because fan sentiment matters

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions

Look at Larry,

getting existential here ; ). I think the point, and I hope you'd agree, is that KW shouldn't be looking to the peanut's gallery for direction on what moves to make next. As much knowledge as any of us have, KW is always, always, always going to have the inside track on free agents, trades, etc... and thus the future landscape for this team. He's the general here, the O Captain (it isn't O Shiphand for nothing!) of the Sox who, quite frequently says that he does what's best for the team, regardless of whether his moves are unpopular with fans and media. He should've blown it up, regardless of what fans thought because it would've been the right move. Now were dangerously getting close to a fork in the river. One path goes up shit's creek...

by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

The existential reference

is in regards to:

if you don't think fan/media sentiment matters
i guess we have nothing to discuss.

by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions

ideally, he shouldn't be

but that's not what most fans think. and i think most baseball people would tell you that, to one degree or another, they have to listen to the fans and make decisions with them in mind. they're the consumer. we don't need to get into idioic sound bites like "that's what a leader does - s/he leads." but the sox, like all organizations and businesses, take the temperature of their fans. we've seen fans/media run players, coaches, GMs, whatever out of this town. or call for a team to be dismantled. for a variety of reasons, there was no such sentiment for a 72 win team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions

larry, I just hate when they take

my temperature anally with a 34" bat, which is how it feels today (I'm imagining how that feels - never actually experienced it).

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

metal, wood, or whiffle?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions

Metal, iced down

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions

Then I guess, WU,

you've never been interrogated by the Chicago PD. Ba-zing!

by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions

"Idiotic sound bites"...

Man, Larry, you sure make being amicable with you tough. Have you ever considered writing a book? I see you penning something along the lines of "How to alienate people."

by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions

wasn't directed towards you

read things however you want, of course.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:57 PM CST up reply actions

I'm a sensitive man, Larry

though I still think you've got a future on Oprah's couch ; )

by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions

Well, THAT was nice

Keep your dukes up, Hulk, with women and attorneys who have been pantsed! (Re: the BS trade rumor that turned out to be not BS.)

Just funnin' lar.

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

Dire Straits?!?!?

I love those guys!

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

The

overreaction here is stunning. I'm glad we didn't get Cabrera or Hunter for what it would have cost us.....we'll see what happens from here.

by dantesox on Dec 5, 2007 11:56 AM CST up reply actions

Yay hooray. Yay hooray.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 12:07 PM CST up reply actions

AGREE (kind of)

I trade Gio and Fields in a heartbeat for Miguel Cabrera. Cabrera is one of the top hitters in the game - Fields is still kind of an unknown and Gio still could be a bust.

I do agree that the Sox need to get young, quick. Konerko could bring back a top prospect or two. Thome (if he waves his N/T) could bring back something and Vazquez could as well.

They need to do what they did earlier this decade and go young. Konerko, Maggs, Lee, Buehrle, Garland, Rowand, Crede all came up from the farm or were traded for when they were still in the minors. This is the way you build a team...not the way Kenny has done now, which has destroyed the minor league system with trades and burdened the payroll with over the hill veterans.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions

id love it

but thats completely opposite of what KW is thinking..... at least thats the picture im getting from his actions...

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST reply actions

Reports: Jays offer Alex Rios for Giants' starter

Ken Rosenthal wrote:

The proposed trade of outfielder Alex Rios for either San Francisco's Matt Cain or Tim Lincecum rests with the Giants' decision-makers, according to major-league sources.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST reply actions

ha!

His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Dec 5, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions

go! fight! win! woo!

i was cheered up ever so slightly this morning when i read in the local rag (the chronicle) that not only are the giants pursuing iguchi, but they think he can hit third in their lineup. ouch.

also, found it interesting that according to sabean, lincecum was off the table in any cabrera talk, but isn't for a rios trade. must be because rios is one year further from free agency.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:36 AM CST reply actions

Eckstein must be a wizard

to get even Gardy to buy into his bunk:

From Crasnick's blog entry: "With the Twins in search of middle-infield help, one potential target is free agent David Eckstein. 'I've always had a lot of respect for him,' said Minnesota manager Ron Gardenhire. 'He catches the ball. He knows how to play. He's a proven winner.'"

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:51 AM CST reply actions

He catches the ball? He knows how to play???

Man, the Twinkies are really setting the bar low this season.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions

He's a proven winner???

Tiger Woods...proven winner.
Roger Federer...proven winner.
Bernard Hopkins...proven winner.
David Eckstein...distant relative of Bilbo Baggins who occasionally ends up on a championship team.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions

ROFLMAO!!!

I hope Carl reads that. There has got to be a "Smells Like Mascot" to be had there.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:02 PM CST up reply actions

Toonder,

much applause for listing Eckstein as a Baggins relative. Keep up the humor, things are getting intense around here.

by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions

Think piranah.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions

The Brewers cut their version of Brian Anderson...

Brewers designated outfielder Laynce Nix for assignment.
Nix went 0-for-12 for the Brewers in September, leaving him at .238/.273/.406 in 863 career at-bats. The 27-year-old can handle center field adequately and he offers pretty good power, but it looks like he'll always come up well short in the OBP department.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 11:59 AM CST reply actions

sox still in fukudome hunt

according to will carroll

"The teams involved on Kosuke Fukudome are all cursing the Royals today. Jose Guillen's signing his three-year, $36 million deal raised the price for Fukudome, and left several teams looking for a Plan B. Both Chicago teams are in on the bidding, including a strong move from the White Sox, who don't want to miss out on yet another off-season target."

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6974

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:01 PM CST reply actions

If it equates to Fukodome...

Then all of this acrimony may end up actually being worth something.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions

As mentioned previously,

KW don't wanna go 0-3 this winter. But, so effin' what? We're just eating the dust of our division opponents at this point.

2008 - The Final Solution

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions

Oh c'mon WU

Think of all the fun we'll be able to have coming up with nicknames for the guy! His name's practically of the nick variety already!

If we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose. I've been a White Sox fan for twenty years now and I've seen them lose just about as often as I've seen them win.

Most teams don't win every season, even the Yankees sucked for a good long while (and they're starting to slip back into that now). We don't have any control over personnel decisions or the direction the KW decides to take the team, but we can control the fun we have with this mess.

So bring on the Fukodome.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

Fuku

I still want to see a decent team on the field.

by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 12:17 PM CST reply actions

What does that mean?

Would you rather watch a 77-85 team than a 72-90, team if it means less payroll flexibility, or in the case of other free agents, giving up draft picks?

I would much rather watch a bad baseball team with young cheap guys than a bad baseball team full of vets.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions

Fuku's 30

That's 25 in North American Caucasian age. He'll do. And where shall we spend the $ if not on Fuku, who can lead off and play CF for the next 5 years? Return it to all the LP's?

Spend wisely, get us a better pipeline to Asia (maybe get Gooch back?), and have fun with the name.

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

no mas.

i'm really just being shitty because, well, why the hell not.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions

Why not, indeed

LOL. You crack me up, kid. (Really.)

But why the hell not? I'll tell you why not! Karma! I've come around to the Fuku = mini-Ichiro mindset. Like Dr. Evil and Mini-Me.

So, Toonder, I will spin your "why the hell not?" the proper way and posit "why the hell not sign him?".

Through the looking glass! Up is down!

NOW what have you got to say for yourself?

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions

the only thing i can say

is that i picked a hell of a year to abandon my season tickets by moving 2100 miles away.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:43 PM CST up reply actions

Timing's everything, bro

And the last year of BL (US vs.) Bonds in a baseball uni.

Where's the market going, Mr. Rabbit's Foot?

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions

i try not to worry myself with such things

at the moment. i'm a value guy in for the long-term generally, and now i have less fun money to play with. plus i live with a tax lawyer investment junkie. one per household is plenty.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions

last year?

bonds will sign with oakland. book it.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

Que? Book what?

Your credibility as Nostradamous has taken a serious broadside hit, bro. At least lick your wounds for 24 hours before proclaiming yourself Karnack again.

;)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions

what?

because i called bullshit on a bad deal the marlins made and one that everyone with a baseball sense also called bullshit when they first heard it?

bonds to oakland may as well be a done deal. beane is like KW: what he covets he gets. eventually. this is the city that has the raiders, you know. they love these guys.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions

Oh, don't start the semantics

in the interpretation of "bullshit", as in "it's a bullshit deal". I can't read your mind, but I would guess "BS" meant "the rumor is BS", not "It's a BS deal".

It's OK to be wrong sometimes. I'm used to it. Come here and get a hug from us, big man. Let us take a dip in that deep, terrifyingly mysterious Lake larry - share your vulnerable side with us.....

;)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions

wouldn't one think a BS deal

is also BS? as in, why would someone make a deal that is BS. that's why i thought it was bullshit. with the players getting thrown around for santana, why would the marlins settle for less when they're providing more? didn't - and doesn't - make sense.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 2:56 PM CST up reply actions

Sigh

(Turns to all of the SSS Nation:)

Well, I gave it a shot. He's too tough for me. I feel like Father Flanigan trying to rehabilitate Whitey.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions

i don't know what you're arguing with me about

i thought the rumor was bullshit and i wrote as much. why are you trying to put different words/meanings in my mouth and arguing semantics when there are none to argue?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions

Give it up -- you were wrong.

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions

no, i was right

there is and was no deal between the marlins and tigers.

thanks for the newsflash on that one.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions

Yep, read Larry's quotes...

http://www.southsidesox.com/comments/2007/12/3/203941/660/118#118

At first, Larry thought that the rumor was bogus, not that it was a bad trade for the Marlins. He thought that the Marlins made up the rumor to drive up the price for Miguel Cabrera to other teams. Larry can't seem to admit when he's wrong. It's a very unattractive quality in a man. ; )

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions

okay, for the toddlers out there

yes, i thought the rumor was bogus. doesn't one need a reason for why one would think a rumor was bogus? or do you usually just flip a coin in deciding that?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions

Because you thought that...

the Cabrera + Willis to the Tigers trade rumor was a bogus attempt by the Marlins to drive up the price for Cabrera, not that the Marlins weren't getting enough of a return from the Tigers.

bullshit

biggest load of bullshit ever.

those major league sources

are the marlins. and someone who heard it from the marlins. they're trying to drive up the price.

Where in your two quotes is you saying anything about the Marlins not getting enough talent back from the Tigers?

by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 3:09 PM CST up reply actions

I'm gonna bet on Larry for

writing the last post in this exchange.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions

Not even close, Bub!

(Bender - The Breakfast Club.)

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions

right

and...? i didn't realize i needed to footnote my posts with every thought i had. it seemed like a blatant attempt to drive up the price with the angels by leaking that the tigers made this offer and were thus now in the running for miggy. whoops.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions

That's the spirit.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions

Fuk u Gooch?

haha!

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 5, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions

With all the fuss being made...

...this guy better be the next coming of Ichiro for Chrissakes. Would he actually fit in with the Sox? I mean, is he Chicago Tough, a true "Grinder-San"?

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions

Grinders

Kenny is p*ssed now. He will make sure he gets a couple more grinders.

Eckstein signs for 3 years, $9 million a year. You can never have TOO MANY Shortstops!

Rowand, 5 years, $95 million. Aaron is more Grinder than Tori.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions

dont forget

that erstad is still out there and so is pods. we can always bring them back.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:57 PM CST up reply actions

Oh, I'd love to hear the spin on those.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions

anything worth reading into this?

12:58 p.m., from Amy Nelson
* Since news broke of the Marlins-Tigers blockbuster, Detroit left-hander Andrew Miller has not heard a word from anyone in the Tigers' organization. One of Miller's agents ran into Jim Leyland in the hotel lobby Tuesday night, and Leyland told him the deal wasn't anywhere close to getting done. What is unclear is whether any of the eight players involved have to physically be examined, which is why the trade could be held up. So far, Miller and his agents have not been told anything. Word is that the deal might not be completed until after the winter meetings -- unless there are other factors preventing it from getting done.

-espn

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM CST reply actions

Ah HA!

Kenny is up to some masterful tricks!

He probably has offered Gio, Danks, Fields, Quentin, Richar, DLS, Jenks, Southpaw the mascot, the Chevy Pride Crew girls and a Silverado for Cabrera.

Ozzie gets what Ozzie wants.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 12:52 PM CST up reply actions

i draw the line

at the chevy pride team.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions

so would the marlins.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions

is there anyway

that we can include DJ and singleton in this deal? maybe if we take on half their salaries?

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions

of course, it doesn't fill a need position

they already have the marlin mermaids.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions

i know not of the marlins mermaids,

but if they do exist, i would bet ugly's wine cellar that they are infinitely more attractive than the chevy pride ew.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 1:01 PM CST up reply actions

exactly

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 1:02 PM CST up reply actions

SoBe, baby!

Of course, they may be she-males, but what the hey?

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions

Being an old man

I actually appreciate the hard work put in by the young and fit Chevy Pride Crew gals as they skip about the warning track chucking cheap t-shirts into the crowd.

Now Southpaw, that's another story. What the hell kind of mascot is that? What is it suppose to be? I say bring back the corpse of Andy the Clown!

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions

Hawk Lives in FLA???

Maybe we could throw him in?

Sox could hire Jeff Joniak from the Bears to announce. "Jerry Owens - you are RIDICULOUS!"

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions

"Jerry Owens - you are RIDICULOUS!"

I'm warming up to you, BobbySouthSide.

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions

Wiz,

new thread? No make it 2. One titled WHINING ONLY, the 2nd, OPTIMISTIC POSTS ONLY!!!!!

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 12:59 PM CST reply actions

No kidding.

I've had enough of the whining only thread. No wonder SOME of my college buddies from out of state say Sox fans are haters.

by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions

Friends don't let friends

bash the Sox? I missed that bumper sticker.

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions

Were all just feeling a little tense

over losing Pods, that's all.

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 1:12 PM CST up reply actions

and

alex cintron.

by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions

If that's true - then what happens

if they move Juan?

by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

PARTY!

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:16 PM CST up reply actions

By the by, we let tubesox

skate without much fanfare. We are as toothless as Kenny.

We get what we deserve.

2010 - Slow Train Comin'

by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

"This post cuts deep."

by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 1:16 PM CST up reply actions

Kenny bowing to fan and media pressure?

So Kenny is basing his decisions on the desires of fans and the media? If this were to be true, I would question his judgement skills and whether or not he should be the Sox GM.

A GM should be a visonary and base his decisions on what's best for the future winning prospects of the team. It could be the short-term future ("Let's win this year") or longer-term ("Let's build now and win in 3 years"), depending on the philosophy of ownership, their BOD and King Reindorf...not the casual or even educated fan...and certainly not the media.

I'm guessing Kenny is trying to win in 2008, but the moves thus far (and there's still plenty of time) don't give me hope for a huge improvement. I really hope any moves made now don't actually hurt the team's chances in the longer term.

Luckily for me there will continue to be an ample supply of MGD at the park next year, so from a personal standpoint, I'm in good shape.

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions

Not to get everyone even more upset, but...

No Hall call for Harrelson

Ken "Hawk" Harrelson's popularity as an announcer didn't extend to online voters this fall.

Harrelson, known for his cheerleading style of the White Sox, failed to finish among the top three voters added to the 10 names for the 2008 Ford C. Frick Award given for excellence in baseball broadcasting by the Hall of Fame.

by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 1:18 PM CST reply actions

sanity prevails, at least momentarily.

Once and for all, the leadoff position is how Jenna Jameson decides to spend the first 8 minutes of video time, which has nothing to do with baseball.

by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 1:20 PM CST up reply actions

Which Sox broadcaster

will actually pronounce Quentin's name right? I say none: they'll all say it as if spelled Quintin.

It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions

Make it TinTin!

by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 8:34 PM CST up reply actions

fuku news

will carroll says welcome to the fukudome will decide today - someone, he thinks cubs, made a big offer.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/o/owensje01.shtm

by larry on Dec 5, 2007 2:13 PM CST reply actions

The Jay Mariotti Blog

Everyone is so negative, I'm thinking Mariotti is using fake names to post here.
The original thesis is wrong - The Sox used the extra money from 2005 to obtain Thome and Vasquez. The White Sox were favored to repeat in 2006 by many due to those off season acquisitions.

by bingodog on Dec 5, 2007 7:37 PM CST reply actions