The White Sox are a $100MM mid-market club
A couple of years ago, I participated in a 2006 season preview with Aaron Gleeman (now of NBC Sports), Bryan Smith (now featured on SI.com), and Rich Lederer over at Baseball Analysts. I bring this up because we touched on a number of issues which suddenly seem more pertinent. Chief among those issues was the (possible) White Sox transition into a large market ($100+MM payroll) club, the depletion of their farm system, and what those two things could mean in an increasingly competitive AL Central.
I've been thinking about that conversation a lot tonight. Looking back, there isn't a singular quote which is incredibly relevant on its own, but the general points brought up, especially in the Sox portion of the discussion, still ring true.
The part of the conversation I remember most, however, was Gleeman's assertion that any AL Central team willing to spend $100+MM year-in-year-out would be perennial favorites. He was talking about the White Sox, but I wondered (to myself) what a Detroit team, which had just vowed to spend 'as much money as it takes,' and a Cleveland team with a revitalized fan base could do.
So here we sit, almost a full two years later. The White Sox farm system seems destined to be named the 29th best (2nd worst) in all of baseball. And thanks to some dubious extensions and pretty terrible middle relief signing, the only thing about the White Sox which could be considered Big Market is their payroll.
- The White Sox are unwilling to pay over slot in the first-year player draft.
- The White Sox are (seemingly) afraid to offer arbitration to departing free agents. (Perhaps to help limit draft costs.) The last time they had multiple extra picks thanks to arbitration they got top prospects Josh Fields and Gio Gonzalez, who fell due to unfounded character concerns. The rest of the draft was filled with overdrafts who would sign below slot (Wes Whisler, Dony Lucy, Ray Liotta.)
- The White Sox have been unwilling to compete for high-dollar amateur international talent, with the SS Silveiro marking their only $300+K signing of the last 5+(?) years.
- The White Sox have been unwilling to feel the wrath of the Winners Curse by shelling out top dollar to the top free agents. There hasn't been a singing of a true top-level free-agent since Albert Belle almost 10 years ago. And I haven't even brought up the name Scott Boras yet.
Gleeman was wrong. $100M doesn't go as far as it used to. The Sox outspent the division to a 4th place finish last year, and they appear to be headed to another $100M 4th or 5th place finish this year.
Gleeman was right. You need only look as far as the Tigers to see how a properly run Big Market club should operate.
- They've invested heavily in the amateur international market
- They've refused to bow to Bud Selig's slotting demands in the June draft.
- They've overspent when necessary on the free-agent market.
The Tigers acquisition of Cabrera doesn't effect the Sox as much as it initially seems. Most people around here (myself included) were extremely skeptical about the White Sox ability to make the playoffs this year. I would have put them slightly better than 5% chance to win the AL Central yesterday. The Cabrera trade takes it down under 5%, but I'd hardly call that a difference at all. Our long-shot is now a slightly longer shot.
More than the 2% change in the Sox playoff chances, this trade gives a glimpse into what could have been had the Sox truly taken the influx of new fans derived from 2005 World Series run and put those dollars to use in every way possible. Simply put, the Sox missed out on their "big fish" because they refused to spend enough money on bait.
That hurts.
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256 comments
Comments
This post cuts deep.
by quartz77277 on Dec 5, 2007 12:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Tip of the cap
It hurts real bad.
by CWSKeith on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wow
We are at a crossroads as an organization. Probably a year or so too late.
Imagine if we got a near Jennings haul for Garland last year instead of OC this year.
What if we moved Dye.
I dont think that Kenny has the stones for it. The best move now would be to go to the Angels or the Diamondbacks to see what Konerko would fetch.
by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 1:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to add
by The Cheat on Dec 5, 2007 1:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well example A
by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 1:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Really
You can use the money freed up from Sheffield, I-Rod, Rogers, and Renteria in a couple of years to sign some quality FA's and also their minor league system will be built up again by then.
Sad to say that the Sox are screwed. Detroit is solid, Cleveland will be strong for awhile with its young guys and Minnesota will be contending again in 2010-2011. KC is young and will be strong too.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
tigers..
Did Granderson just have a career year last year? (Remember how everybody thought Grady Sizemore was the next Mickey Mantle a couple years ago?). Or was 2007 the start of something bigger for him?
Mags also had a career year. Nice to see him win a batting championship. But that's a career year for him too-- unlikely to be repeated. He might even have an Erstad-like drop off from him career year.
A lot of their guys are on the wrong side of 30 also.
by ruffster on Dec 5, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
zumaya
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of odd injuries
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing to remember about the Tigers---
They've got all thing wonderful talent on board and have come away with bupkus so far. For the sake of their franchise, they needed to sell the future to "win now." Even that doesn't guarantee it. And they've hardly sold their entire future to do it.
Dombrowski is a bright guy. He got lucky with Mags and Sheff and Pudge staying healthy and producing-- these are older players just like our guys. But that luck will run out. The difference may be their farm system is better-- and they may learn from the Sox' mistakes.
I want to be competitive too- but nobody can take 05 away from us. We won the World Series! Most of us on this board waited decades for it. It still feels good to say it.
by ruffster on Dec 5, 2007 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uribe to Nats
by tbone328 on Dec 5, 2007 1:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Rivera
Whatever... more important is getting that money back so we can waste it on whoever.
by CWSKeith on Dec 5, 2007 1:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be better not to get anything back
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 1:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
At this point I'm just holding out for some freaking excitement. I don't know if 'excitement' can be equated with 'doing what's right for the organization', but I'd be lying if I woke up to news that the Sox inked Jones or Fukodome and said I wasn't excited. A Fukodome-Cabrera-Thome-Konerko-Dye-Pierzynski-Fields-Quentin-Richar lineup is an exciting one -- probably a third or fourth place lineup in our division, but that's a good mix right there. Anything else -- mainly talking about Rowand here -- bores me.
by CWSKeith on Dec 5, 2007 2:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fukudome
The other thing is that if he really does just want 3 years, it shouldn't be an albatross contract in the future. Plus, it would be buying talent that could eventually be traded (hopefully) at some point. And his OBP would be good for the Sox.
Unfortunately, it sounds like he's lock for the Cubs.
If you could tell me that 2007 Rowand would be signing a deal with the Sox and not 2006 Rowand, I'd be happy about that as well...
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 2:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Juan Urine for Saul Rivera and a minor leaguer...
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be a good trade
But still, the main thing is clearing the $4 mil or so.
by jackie hayes on Dec 5, 2007 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Kenny have a hard time with reality
Now he makes comments that Quentin is Chicago Tough.
Yet....
Quentin, acquired Monday from Arizona, revealed he has sought counseling to help combat the stress he has placed on himself.
"I've taken steps in the past to alleviate any internal stress the game creates," Quentin told the East Valley Tribune in Mesa, Ariz. "I've tried to use every advantage to prepare myself. I have certain people I talk to, mental coaches. I've definitely taken steps to develop the physical and the mental."
Now I like Quentin and was happy with the trade, and I hope that he gets the pucker factor under control. But how does one describe him as Chicago tough and then we find out he is under therapy for pucker factor. Just a question.
by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 1:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty clear
Kenny was probably wowed by all the HBPs that Quentin takes and assumed he was a tough guy. It's in the same vein of wanting to give Hunter a big contract (OBP be damned) because he knocked the snot out of Burke one game in 2004.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 1:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
has sought counseling to help combat the stress
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 6:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bally: Optimist AND Voice of Reason!!!
by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2007 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, and remember -
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
bally = Carl Rogers
Only 2 THANGS come from Chicago! Steers and Strong, Sensitive Men Who Acknowledge Their Weaknesses And Seek Professional Help! I don't see no horns on you, so you must be a Strong, Sensitive Man!
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sox
Baseball's about the little things, like beer, brats, and b*tches. But it's about the fans as well. Chances are, we're not winning crap until 2048 or whatever. I just want to see a decent team give its best shot.
It's really depressing when you're at Schaller's after a loss, and the old lady next to the keyboard is singing "Big Spender" while you're sucking down an Old Style.
by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 2:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Dammit
by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 3:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well said Cheat.
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 4:36 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
crede would probably
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
on mike and mike
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
correction
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not right
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
as far as i know
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thank you
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i use cot's contracts
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I figured.
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good post Cheat
by Tony82087 on Dec 5, 2007 6:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
2010
by spadog on Dec 5, 2007 7:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
JD
2 years/$22M (2008-09), plus 2010 mutual option
* signed extension 8/18/07
* 08:$9.5M, 09:$11.5M, 10:$12M mutual option ($1M buyout)
* full no-trade clause in 2008
* limited no-trade clause in 2009 (Dye may block deals to 6 clubs)
by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 7:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fully agree
- They let an aging Hunter walk after scoffing at his ridiculous demands, and will net 2 first round picks.
- They convert surplus talent into Delmon Young, who has the potential to be a premier hitter.
- They put Santana on the block during the winter after scoffing at his demands. They'll get an excellent haul of major league ready young talent under control.
- They'll do the same with Nathan.
MN took a realistic view of what they're older players could produce down the road, and waved them goodbye instead paying foolish money for them. Instead of converting assets to youth, we trade for one year of redundant SSs and hand out extensions like candy to lock up downslopers.
And now here comes KC too. We have the worst front office in the division, very discouraging.
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 7:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Great Post, Great Site
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 7:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
thanks
by spadog on Dec 5, 2007 7:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
White Sox offer for Miguel Cabrera...
Read the full article for some lame excuses by Kenny and Ozzie.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
sounds like a loser to me...
i mean its early and all, but that is the battle cry for teams that know they are done. cmon KW, work some magic for once.
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 8:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it was a four prospect offer for Cabrera..
My guess is that the fourth prospect was Ryan Sweeney.
Josh Fields
Two of John Danks / Gio Gonzalez / Lance Broadway
Ryan Sweeney
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
re
are the Sox joining the army?
:p
by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not a good morning
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 8:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Fukudome
according to that article, fukudome has narrowed his choices to the royals and cubs....ouch.
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My money is on the Royals geting him
by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That would mean
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny promised Buehrle and Dye some big fish...
Dye wasn't the only one asking that question as the Sox' offseason continued to go terribly wrong.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Report: Yanks turned down Kennedy-less deal
Previous speculation was that the Yankees balked at including Ian Kennedy along with Hughes and Cabrera, but the newspaper reports that general manager Brian Cashman turned down a deal that didn't include Kennedy at all. According to the report, Cashman "never wanted to do the Santana deal in the first place" and became even less interested once Andy Pettitte was re-signed. If true, that would explain why Hank Steinbrenner stuck to his self-imposed deadline and might indicate that the Yankees are truly out of the Santana mix.
Source: New York Daily News
Wow, I have a hard time believing that the Yankees turned down this trade.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 8:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Back to Andruw Jones
He's still much better then Torii Hunter, and most intelligent baseball GM's would know this. His decline coincides with the steroid ban, he's clearly become out of shape and guys are afraid to give him anything close to market value.
Boras and a decline in stats might scare some guys (Ken. Williams.), but not enough to turn down a 30 year old hall of famer when guys like Torii Hunter are getting paid 90 million. If they did know he was a user, they would know he's not going to ever get back to what he was, and they'd know he is possibly going to be suspended at some point. His OBP and K Rate clearly is not the reason the Sox don't want him, that'd make no sense considering any other move we've made.
by Grinder in Training on Dec 5, 2007 9:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Last year's #'s, Boras, maybe steroids.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not really
by southsideirish on Dec 5, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Possible Next Moves?
*Do they attempt to trade Konerko, ala Bruce Levines prediction? if so, potential suitors?
*throw the everything including the kitchen sink at Fukudome?
*sign Rowand? (no thanks)
i can see williams going for rowand now as plan Q-82, with what he feels would be a fan-pleasing move. although, most of us in here are in agreement, that it would be an awful move.
your thoughts?
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:10 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Trade for Crisp
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Please NO NO NO.
I hear Boras has been seen at sensitivity training classes since he upset Alex and Kenny Rogers.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no no no no no!
If the Red Sox don't cough up Ellsbury in a trade, they are stuck with Crisp. I wouldn't give up anything of value for him anyway-- especially now. Owens is a better bet for the future than Crisp.
by ruffster on Dec 5, 2007 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
KW is a step behind all of these GMs
by LVSoxFan on Dec 5, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
It sounds like Crede is headed to the Brewers...
Here's another link about the Brewers interest in Crede.
My prediction was Crede to the Brewers for Matt Wise. If the trade is Crede + other(s) for Bill Hall I would be ecstatic and shocked.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'd love Bill Hall
From what I hear, there is no way Braun plays 3rd next year.
by shaftr on Dec 5, 2007 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Other teams love him too...
After missing out on Miguel Cabrera, general manager Ned Colletti is clearly pursuing other third base options. In addition to Hall, the Dodgers are said to be in the mix for Scott Rolen, Troy Glaus and Tadahito Iguchi. They have the young talent and money to acquire just about anyone who's available, so it's a matter of Colletti pulling the trigger.
by BoKnows on Dec 5, 2007 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you really think 2010
The thing that amazes me is KW always talks about is 3 year board - however there never truly seems to be a 3 year plan. Just reaction to short term events... such as Dye being a free agent (even though he knew this would be a reality when he signed him initially). There truly appears that there was no plan for when Dye would be leaving. Just a hope that Sweeney or Owens might work out, no actual indication this would actualy happen.
Then there is the seemingly evident lack of internal communication. Jone's really demonstrates this. Ozzie keeps harping about one style of team - KW keeps delivering on another. Even Cabrera would have added another slow footed heavy bat to the lineup. (Though an extremely good one) Opposite of what Ozzie keeps saying he wants.
Seems to me this franchise needs new leadership - I hope I'm wrong. I was willing to give KW through this year to show that '05 was not pure luck, but more and more it appears that way.
Regardless - they already have my money for next year. At least the lines will be short.
On a different topic - does anyone know how the season ticket renewal was for the Sox this year?
by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 9:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling
I think that now, unfortunately, they'll keep him (a fan favorite) under the guise of competing this year.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sox offer Rowand 4-year, $55 million contract...
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
please reject it
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the predicted splash that the White Sox...
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
id rather
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
save for the future?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
They should
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another draft pick would be gone
by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Signing A Jones = NO LOST DRAFT PICKS.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
signing no one = NO LOST DRAFT PICKS.
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No, no
And in actuality, paying anyone at this time is dumb. So I don't think they should sign Jones. I would have liked Fukudome, just to see him play, but I guess I'll see enough of him given that he will still be in Chicago.
Kenny needs pack up, go concentrate on building up the Sox scouting and development. Take the Hunter money and invest it in that.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would you want Andruw Jones?
Aaron Rowand (career line): .286 AVG / .343 OBP / .462 SLG / .805 OPS
Andruw Jones (career line): .263 AVG / .342 OBP / .497 SLG / .839 OPS
That extra .001 point of OBP is awesome. Kenny is a moron.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
why would we want jones on a short deal?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But something will happen
This is like watching a slow-motion car crash. Ugh.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But it proves that Kenny is even dumber...
Let's assume that Kenny is still convinced that the White Sox can compete in 2008, which seems to be a good assumption. Apparently, Kenny thinks that Rowand would be a better acquisition than Jones to compete in 2008. My main point is that Kenny is a moron and this proves it.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
four years of rowand
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why are you assuming that the contract offer...
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
false logic?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess we will find out the number of years...
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jones
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Two ridiculous comments in one post...
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it didn't take long!
by The Wizard on Dec 5, 2007 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny is in full spin mode
by southsideirish71 on Dec 5, 2007 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Did he specify what "it" is?
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever "it" is
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Clinton
by Air Raid Siren Stan on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't it starting to hurt, lar,
;)
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's a running joke now
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is embarassing for the franchise
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm ok with this
by shaftr on Dec 5, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I don't get it.
Not 1 mention on the Quentin acquisition thread of a Sox megatrade for Cabrera!
He goes instead to Detroit instead.
Now TOTAL DESPONDENCY.
Still a lot of time left. And remember, THAT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GAMES.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
what's not to get?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm more disappointed
And, as much as getting Cabrera may have been a bad idea, if that was Williams plan he pursued it very poorly. If he knew last season he wanted to get him, he should have been trading for prospects to use to acquire him. I be happier if the Sox were pursuing a plan I didn't like but were at least doing it competently.
And, it is irrational, but I am disappointed about the Sox getting outbid on Fukudome.
by hitlesswonder on Dec 5, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who was super-positive?
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Couple things Kenny has done
- Why resign Dye for that massive amount of $$?
- Why resign Uribe before you make a trade of Cabrera? I would have waited all winter to get another SS before have to succumb to signing that jelly donut. Nobody would have signed him anytime soon.
- Why trade the only bargaining chip we really had in Garland for an aging 33-year old SS who is under contract for 1-year?
- Why trade Crede now when his stock is at an all time low?
- 4 years, $19 million for a 32-year old reliever??
- Can this team get any older?
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Brewers sign RHP Riske to three-year deal...
The three-year deal could be worth up to $20 million based on incentives tied to closing games and also includes a $4.75 million option for 2011. Riske is likely to enter the season in a setup role, but could compete with Derrick Turnbow for ninth-inning duties if the Brewers fail to bring in another closer option. A Type B free agent, the Royals will receive a supplemental first-round pick for losing Riske.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Just a question.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
how do you define large market?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 10:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no thanks
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Houston and Arlington/Dallas...
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely 2
I guess it depends on your def. of large market.
That could be only 5-7 teams or could be a much larger group.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you
I guess I perceive it more as making some moves to contend that completely blew up in their faces (Lee trade being the exception)and their middling to terrible records the next three seasons gave people the impression that they were starting over.
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cubs basically blew it up
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they made two trades
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The 2000 Mets are probably best analogy
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about our "white flag" trade?
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Only...
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, call me Capt. Obvious, then
Blow it up, Vol II. The war's over. Wermer dropped the big one.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a question.
by White Sox Randy on Dec 5, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure...
I hope that Ken Williams wakes up, and realises that no matter what he does this winter, this team is not going to compete for the playoffs. It's not going to compete for the playoffs in 2009, either. It's time to look towards the future.
Get rid of some of this salary. Trade Konerko. See if Thome will waive his no-trade clause for the right deal. Move Javier Vazquez. When you've got the pieces to contend again, then you can add payroll again.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
they're despondent
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speak not for the masses larry
Dat's what I tink.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a bit redundant
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dye...
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even if they have to eat
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
people
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly what I was thinking...
Now Williams is being ripped apart for doing exactly what people wanted him to do.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i dont know
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and what were the fans saying about MB?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i was
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
regardless?
maybe it was wrong to listen to the fans. but it's also disingenuous for fans to be crucifying the organization for doing what they wanted.
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And why did he do that?
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're missing my point...
Ken Williams isn't making moves in a vacuum. He isn't Billy Beane or Terry Ryan - the White Sox are in a major market, so he has to make moves to keep butts in seats.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 5, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is true, which is why you will never....
Oakland knows they have nothing to lose. They don't have anyone in the stands when they are winning, so if they see the future doesn't look bright, they can rebuild and know they aren't hurting much of a fan base.
KW still has the World Series fans to work off of. The off-season continues like it is, and we have a season like it looks like we are going to have, he is going to lose them and then you might see a rebuild project take place.
by Tony82087 on Dec 5, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no i see your point
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
most fans are ridiculous.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And why wouldn't they?
BTW love the sig Toonder!
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i guess
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what people miss
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which players are that?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oops
and now the picture is more clear, we have crap and nothing else, so it has to be played because KW wants to keep butts in the seats, and if average joe fan read in the paper that the team is rebuilding, he or she wont come to the park. i think the light bulb just turned on.
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"the fans sent KW on a fool's errand"
But it was clear (months ago) that the Sox were not going to do that. I don't think that happens often in situations with 25,000+ season tickets. It's business.
They were blind to the failure of their player development, for whatever reason. They have made moves recently, hopefully it's much improved.
We've been evolved into lemons (in the short term). Williams is trying to make lemonade.
Expecting them to "to blow it up" is insanity. It is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fans forcing his hand is Bullshit
Instead he re-signed MB and JD with the promise of some Operation Barbarossa, and now we find out what this ultra-secret master plan was. And now he's bogged down in Stalingrad. This has nothing to do with fan pressure, this is the direction he wanted to go.
So now we're stuck with an aging downsloping roster that costs a ton of money and is in no position to compete, and a minor league system ranked 29th in baseball. This falls squarely on his shoulders, he deserves every bit of the heat he's getting and will be getting.
This was KW's plan, and he's the one who failed to execute it.
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
without exception, huh
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon Larry
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you say so
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, at least we know what Plan 1A was now
- Sign Hunter (but only at a fair CWS price)
- Trade Garland for Orlando Cabrera/Linebrink
- Trade the entire minor league system for the other Cabrera
I don't really care that we didn't sign Hunter or Miguel Cabrera. What I'm really upset about is that they've made some really stupid decisions (Garland for OC, Linebrink) all based upon trying to pull off such a half-baked plan. Any way you look at this, KW's moves are really indefensible.
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i wouldn't call it that half-baked
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
delete 'get' in third to last sentence
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
quarter-baked
by ChicagoPete on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How, in any way, would it have mattered
by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there sure would be less whining now
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so have the fans
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What does that even mean?
Nonetheless, it still doesn't answer why you feel that if more fans (average fans or SSS posters) had called for blowing up this team a mere month ago it would have mattered.
by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you don't think fan/media sentiment matters
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Larry, you're dismissing questions I never asked
You stated that (undefined) fans should have called for blowing up the team a month ago when it mattered. I just want to know why you think such a groundswell would have had any effect on KW in early November after already resigning MB, JD, and AJ.
by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so you say fan sentiment does matter
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where did I say that fan sentiment does matter?
I'd merely like a better explanation on why you feel an 11th hour swell of fan sentiment for blowing up the team would have possibly restrained KW this offseason after he cast the dye by resigned the aforementioned players?
by BustedFlush on Dec 5, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
because fan sentiment matters
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at Larry,
by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The existential reference
if you don't think fan/media sentiment matters
i guess we have nothing to discuss.
by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ideally, he shouldn't be
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
larry, I just hate when they take
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
metal, wood, or whiffle?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Metal, iced down
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then I guess, WU,
by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Idiotic sound bites"...
by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wasn't directed towards you
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a sensitive man, Larry
by HulkSmash on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, THAT was nice
Just funnin' lar.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dire Straits?!?!?
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
AGREE (kind of)
I do agree that the Sox need to get young, quick. Konerko could bring back a top prospect or two. Thome (if he waves his N/T) could bring back something and Vazquez could as well.
They need to do what they did earlier this decade and go young. Konerko, Maggs, Lee, Buehrle, Garland, Rowand, Crede all came up from the farm or were traded for when they were still in the minors. This is the way you build a team...not the way Kenny has done now, which has destroyed the minor league system with trades and burdened the payroll with over the hill veterans.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
id love it
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Reports: Jays offer Alex Rios for Giants' starter
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 11:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
go! fight! win! woo!
also, found it interesting that according to sabean, lincecum was off the table in any cabrera talk, but isn't for a rios trade. must be because rios is one year further from free agency.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:36 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Eckstein must be a wizard
From Crasnick's blog entry: "With the Twins in search of middle-infield help, one potential target is free agent David Eckstein. 'I've always had a lot of respect for him,' said Minnesota manager Ron Gardenhire. 'He catches the ball. He knows how to play. He's a proven winner.'"
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
He catches the ball? He knows how to play???
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a proven winner???
Roger Federer...proven winner.
Bernard Hopkins...proven winner.
David Eckstein...distant relative of Bilbo Baggins who occasionally ends up on a championship team.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ROFLMAO!!!
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Brewers cut their version of Brian Anderson...
Nix went 0-for-12 for the Brewers in September, leaving him at .238/.273/.406 in 863 career at-bats. The 27-year-old can handle center field adequately and he offers pretty good power, but it looks like he'll always come up well short in the OBP department.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 11:59 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
sox still in fukudome hunt
"The teams involved on Kosuke Fukudome are all cursing the Royals today. Jose Guillen's signing his three-year, $36 million deal raised the price for Fukudome, and left several teams looking for a Plan B. Both Chicago teams are in on the bidding, including a strong move from the White Sox, who don't want to miss out on yet another off-season target."
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6974
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
If it equates to Fukodome...
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As mentioned previously,
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh c'mon WU
If we're gonna lose, we're gonna lose. I've been a White Sox fan for twenty years now and I've seen them lose just about as often as I've seen them win.
Most teams don't win every season, even the Yankees sucked for a good long while (and they're starting to slip back into that now). We don't have any control over personnel decisions or the direction the KW decides to take the team, but we can control the fun we have with this mess.
So bring on the Fukodome.
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuku
by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 12:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What does that mean?
I would much rather watch a bad baseball team with young cheap guys than a bad baseball team full of vets.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuku's 30
Spend wisely, get us a better pipeline to Asia (maybe get Gooch back?), and have fun with the name.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no mas.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not, indeed
But why the hell not? I'll tell you why not! Karma! I've come around to the Fuku = mini-Ichiro mindset. Like Dr. Evil and Mini-Me.
So, Toonder, I will spin your "why the hell not?" the proper way and posit "why the hell not sign him?".
Through the looking glass! Up is down!
NOW what have you got to say for yourself?
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the only thing i can say
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Timing's everything, bro
Where's the market going, Mr. Rabbit's Foot?
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i try not to worry myself with such things
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
last year?
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Que? Book what?
;)
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what?
bonds to oakland may as well be a done deal. beane is like KW: what he covets he gets. eventually. this is the city that has the raiders, you know. they love these guys.
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, don't start the semantics
It's OK to be wrong sometimes. I'm used to it. Come here and get a hug from us, big man. Let us take a dip in that deep, terrifyingly mysterious Lake larry - share your vulnerable side with us.....
;)
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wouldn't one think a BS deal
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sigh
Well, I gave it a shot. He's too tough for me. I feel like Father Flanigan trying to rehabilitate Whitey.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know what you're arguing with me about
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, i was right
thanks for the newsflash on that one.
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, read Larry's quotes...
At first, Larry thought that the rumor was bogus, not that it was a bad trade for the Marlins. He thought that the Marlins made up the rumor to drive up the price for Miguel Cabrera to other teams. Larry can't seem to admit when he's wrong. It's a very unattractive quality in a man. ; )
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
okay, for the toddlers out there
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because you thought that...
biggest load of bullshit ever.
are the marlins. and someone who heard it from the marlins. they're trying to drive up the price.
by SSH2005 on Dec 5, 2007 3:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm gonna bet on Larry for
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not even close, Bub!
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's the spirit.
by Hazymania on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fuk u Gooch?
by Shoeless In SC on Dec 5, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With all the fuss being made...
by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grinders
Eckstein signs for 3 years, $9 million a year. You can never have TOO MANY Shortstops!
Rowand, 5 years, $95 million. Aaron is more Grinder than Tori.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
dont forget
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
anything worth reading into this?
* Since news broke of the Marlins-Tigers blockbuster, Detroit left-hander Andrew Miller has not heard a word from anyone in the Tigers' organization. One of Miller's agents ran into Jim Leyland in the hotel lobby Tuesday night, and Leyland told him the deal wasn't anywhere close to getting done. What is unclear is whether any of the eight players involved have to physically be examined, which is why the trade could be held up. So far, Miller and his agents have not been told anything. Word is that the deal might not be completed until after the winter meetings -- unless there are other factors preventing it from getting done.
-espn
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ah HA!
He probably has offered Gio, Danks, Fields, Quentin, Richar, DLS, Jenks, Southpaw the mascot, the Chevy Pride Crew girls and a Silverado for Cabrera.
Ozzie gets what Ozzie wants.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i draw the line
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so would the marlins.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
is there anyway
by The Deacon on Dec 5, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
of course, it doesn't fill a need position
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i know not of the marlins mermaids,
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
SoBe, baby!
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Being an old man
Now Southpaw, that's another story. What the hell kind of mascot is that? What is it suppose to be? I say bring back the corpse of Andy the Clown!
by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hawk Lives in FLA???
Sox could hire Jeff Joniak from the Bears to announce. "Jerry Owens - you are RIDICULOUS!"
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Jerry Owens - you are RIDICULOUS!"
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wiz,
by ballyb on Dec 5, 2007 12:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No kidding.
by Raf on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Friends don't let friends
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Were all just feeling a little tense
by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If that's true - then what happens
by Brush Back on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
By the by, we let tubesox
We get what we deserve.
by winningugly on Dec 5, 2007 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Kenny bowing to fan and media pressure?
A GM should be a visonary and base his decisions on what's best for the future winning prospects of the team. It could be the short-term future ("Let's win this year") or longer-term ("Let's build now and win in 3 years"), depending on the philosophy of ownership, their BOD and King Reindorf...not the casual or even educated fan...and certainly not the media.
I'm guessing Kenny is trying to win in 2008, but the moves thus far (and there's still plenty of time) don't give me hope for a huge improvement. I really hope any moves made now don't actually hurt the team's chances in the longer term.
Luckily for me there will continue to be an ample supply of MGD at the park next year, so from a personal standpoint, I'm in good shape.
by tailgater on Dec 5, 2007 1:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Not to get everyone even more upset, but...
Ken "Hawk" Harrelson's popularity as an announcer didn't extend to online voters this fall.
Harrelson, known for his cheerleading style of the White Sox, failed to finish among the top three voters added to the 10 names for the 2008 Ford C. Frick Award given for excellence in baseball broadcasting by the Hall of Fame.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 5, 2007 1:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
sanity prevails, at least momentarily.
by Toonderstrook on Dec 5, 2007 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Which Sox broadcaster
by Chiburb on Dec 5, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
fuku news
by larry on Dec 5, 2007 2:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Jay Mariotti Blog
The original thesis is wrong - The Sox used the extra money from 2005 to obtain Thome and Vasquez. The White Sox were favored to repeat in 2006 by many due to those off season acquisitions.
by bingodog on Dec 5, 2007 7:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

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