Aaron Cunningham Traded to Arz for Danny Richar

by Tony82087 on Jun 16, 2007 3:29 PM CDT Comment 40 comments

Nice to get some MI depth, but was it worth Cunningham?

http://diamondbacks.scout.com/2/494556.html

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/Danny-Richar.shtml

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Looks like an awful trade in terms of talent...

I'd rather sign a 1-year stop-gap geezer 2B for next season like Loretta or maybe just re-sign Iguchi.

by SSH2005 on Jun 16, 2007 9:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Iguchi is the only reasonable option

He started slow this year but I think his finger was the sole reason. He brings great offense at his position but questionable defense. Either way hes a bargain.

by omnipotent grab on Jun 16, 2007 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Iguchi made possibly the best 2B play ever.

last year i think it was against the twins, remember he was almost upside down and made the throw to first

by lew on Jun 17, 2007 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dont think anyone can forget that

but despite some great moments, his everyday defence really is sub-par.

by omnipotent grab on Jun 17, 2007 3:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was against the Blue Jays.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Jun 17, 2007 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm pretty sure Loretta

is a no value guy at this point. I'm pretty sure Richar plays some D and could be paired up in a net positive platoon fairly easily.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 2:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Loretta

Small sample size, but a .388 OBP this year. He'll be 36 next season, but a cheap 1 or 2 year deal could net a serviceable 2B. Or his performance might just go off a cliff. But given that the Sox won't be competing for anything in 2008, you are right that signing Loretta wouldn't make sense.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 17, 2007 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blah

That's what I get for not looking it up. Laaazy. I still don't think he'd be worth the few extra runs. I'd rather see what Richar can do. Either way, I think whoever is there is a stop-gap for Getz, who could be a nice player for us by 2009.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Richar's D apparently sucks...

and Loretta has always put up a good OBP, albeit with little power. But guess what? We need more OBP, not power. Power + Greg Walker turns guys into swing-for-the-fences strikeout/pop-up artists.

by SSH2005 on Jun 17, 2007 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

That's irritating...his speed is supposed to be one of his tools. I hate it when athletes can translate into good defenders.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Basically, my point is

why spend when the difference in production won't net you any more than you already have? Richar is young so, even if the odds are low, he could turn out to be something. Loretta could fall off a cliff any day now.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The 2008 Sox are going to be bad

It seems pretty clear they'll be starting AAA players at least 3 or 4 positions besides 2B. Given that decision, spending money on Loretta or Iguchi doesn't net you much. Although if they play well, they could be flipped for prospects at the deadline.

Anyway, I realized that what I don't like about this deal is that it is a sign of just how bad the Sox will be in 2008. A team starting Richar will not be good. And even though I knew they would be rebuilding, it's another thing to see it start happening with marginal prospects. Given the Sox talent pool, I guess it couldn't happen any other way.

by hitlesswonder on Jun 17, 2007 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The 2008 Sox won't be any favs

But I would not put money on them being bad. How is it plenty clear they will be starting 3 or 4 AAA players next year? Sox fans crack me up. They do have some assets and are not in bad shape financially. Without seeing the off season its flat out silly to get reading these statements.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Jun 17, 2007 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are incredibly optimistic

Given the state of our minor league system, and the AAAA players currently playing on our team.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 17, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

2/3 OF positions

will be manned by a combo of Pods/Erstad/Sweeney/Podsednik/Terrero. That's 2 AAA/A right there. If Richar is the opening day 2B, that's 3. Fields is a possible 4th.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again say who

You? Point me to the piece where Kenny says that is the case and I will gladly shut up.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Jun 17, 2007 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They're reasonable deductions

Obviously they could be wrong, but we've got plenty of data points to work with.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plenty of Data?

Again you are just making things up. It is your opinion pure and simple. Your certainly entitled to it (off season moves) but do not present it as fact and call it reasonable.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Jun 17, 2007 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So I'm entirely unaware of Kenny's trade history,

the team's needs, contract situation, approximate budget, the general free agent market and our status wrt prospects in the minors? Those are data points. Conjecture is possible. I'm not declaring it The Only Possible Outcome, but it isn't that hard to guess when you know the circumstances as well as the desired outcome.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Funny

You still have not throw out one piece of "data" to support your

"will be manned by a combo of Pods/Erstad/Sweeney/Podsednik/Terrero."

And when you input "data" I don't exactly see how any of the factors you have mentioned support the previous statement. I mean its cool to throw that out but it really doesnt mean anything. (Example Kenny's trade history would FAVOR him going out and making an unexpected trade.)

It comes down to this "real" data. KW has not made one statement that backs up who you will believe will man the outfield next year.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Jun 17, 2007 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Holy balls I clearly think it's speculatory.

Lose the glasses, eagle eye, you're looking hard enough as it is.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow... TDogg...

lay off the guy a bit. He just said it was a reasonable deduction to make. He never said it was set in stone, no one would say that, but you are acting like colin just chiseled that outfield into granite.

His "data points" are clearly enough to make speculation and draw deductions of next year's outfield situation.

Yeah, KW could sign Andruw Jones, Ichiro Suzuki, and Aaron Rowand, but it's just not likely given the kind of money we have to work with and KW's investment in the current players.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 17, 2007 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay Okay

Your right my bad. I guess this team has me in a pissy modd.

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Jun 18, 2007 7:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's got us all in a pissy mood

Except maybe BallyB. Tempers have been flaring a bit around here lately, and I blame the product on the field.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 18, 2007 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How so?

I did not say they were going to win the 2008 WS. The point is currently playing on the team. For some reason many on here have mapped out next year and come to the unreasonable assumption the Sox will not spend any money. Based off what?

There is some talent on the team. There is some pitching on the team.

Our minor league system has been like this for awhile yet they have managed to put out good teams. What are you basing your view on? Certainly not recent history.

I am just saying I would not consider a 81-87 win team "bad".

"Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

by Tdogg on Jun 17, 2007 11:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You guys are unbelievable

Come to Baltimore maybe you will truly understand what a bad team is. You will appreciate your competent owner and GM if you come to my city.

I can't decide if some of you people are passionate fans or whiners. I don't think they will be as bad next year as they are this year. This team STILL has valuable pieces. if they finish 88-72 in 2008 will they suck? No because this division is very tough.

Some of you guys need to have some perspective. If the sox look like they sox team after 1996 trade deadline then you can start hating big time. I do think Riensdorf learned his lesson though. I don't think the white flag will ever be raised like that again.

FORGIVE ME GREG WALKER FOR I HAVE SINNED. IT'S BEEN A YEAR SINCE I CONSISTANTLY HIT THE BALL.

by chisox on Jun 17, 2007 11:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Um

I really don't see the despair you're talking about. We're all being more or less rational and making pretty straightforward deductions.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In fact

I'm pretty sure almost everyone is pretty happy with Kenny as a GM. He's constantly proving that he knows what he's doing and isn't afraid to take reasonable risks. Thome, Dye and Vazquez were all acquisitions in this vein and all have been successful to at least some degree and in Dye and Thome he found incredible production at low cost. That's why I posted that "2008 and Beyond" diary. We are very competently managed and it makes it easy to be a Sox fan. Watching the current incarnation of them, not so much, but aside from that I feel good.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"everyone is pretty happy with Kenny"

begs the questions:

Is everyone really happy with Kenny?
How competent is the management really?

Before 2005, I was a KW detractor. Then, what can you say, 2005 was magical. The assembly of the 2005 team, the acquisistion of Jenks, hiring Ozzie, all had the Midas touch. Since 2005, however, his manouvering has made me distinctly uncomfortable.

Just to play the devil's advocate on 1 issue:

How competent was the management of the outfield, factoring in the BA situtation, the reliance on Erstad, Podesednik, and secondarily, guys like Ozuna and Terrero, and (I have to mention it), the original sin of trading Chris Young?

by spengler on Jun 18, 2007 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think they all speak to an awareness

that 2007 wasn't going to be our year, regardless, so why throw down the money? We have maintained a lot of contract flexibility for the 2007 and especially the 2008 FA class, while managing to get younger and put pieces in place.

I grant that the BA situation was probably mismanaged, but I'm sure Kenny had his talk with the same scouts who told him to ditch McCarthy and go after Danks. You don't win them all, and Vazquez does have a lot of value, regardless. He's relatively cheap and under contract forever and that makes him an asset. My biggest concern right now is our seeming inability to develop position prospects.

by colintj on Jun 18, 2007 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i wonder whether

It's an ability to develop them or whether there is a scouting problem in identifying/acquiring/drafting the high-upside youngsters in the first place (or, worst case, both).

The cunningham/richar deal is troublesome for that reason, and
I agree that the sox' cupboard is alarmingly bare right now.

by spengler on Jun 18, 2007 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's hard to say what the root of the problem

is without any real hard evidence, but we do know that it's been the Sox MO to go low upside, low risk of late. That has been the strategy that turned the Blue Jays into the frightening mess they're in.

by colintj on Jun 18, 2007 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Baltimore...

I'm a Sox fan in Baltimore as well... and personally I would much rather have the incoming/established youth they have over what the Sox presently have. Also, if they end up going through with actually trading some of their pieces (Tejada, Roberts, to a lesser extent Tracshel) by the end of the year, they should have a much improved farm team.

The Sox, unfortunately, have too many question marks to reasonably compete in the next 2 years and a manager who doesn't have the patience to develop talent. Hopefully, Fields will continue to show signs of life so we don't have to see him shelved the way of Anderson and Sweeney.

by krushcuts on Jun 17, 2007 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather have less talent and competent

management. The O's have deplorable roster construction and the fact that they even decided to employ Trachsel is pretty ridiculous. They got lucky and now have an asset for some dumb team to pick up, but Angelos is just an abysmal owner. I feel really bad for their fans.

by colintj on Jun 17, 2007 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rightfully so...

The experience at Camden is pretty piss-poor and pretty much all of it can be translated to Angelos' reign.

The remark about competent management is questionable, because at times the Sox seem to be lacking that and organizational talent. And with less talent in the farm than the O's (and likely still less after Buehrle and Dye are moved) it appears they will finish in the same place as them in their respective division.

Unfortunately, this season was doomed from the start having 2/3 of our outfield set with Podsednik and Erstad putting up sub-.700 OPS seasons, an unproven bullpen outside of Jenks-Thornton-MacDougal, the continued regression of Buehrle, Contreras, and Crede, an open competition for the 5th starter spot featuring a rookie and a former prospect, just to name a few.

Buerhle has at least turned himself around to increase his market value, Pods and Erstad both make their expected trips to the DL while their places are being held by a sub-.500 OPS rookie, and Danks has been impressive despite the lack of consistency from the offense.

by krushcuts on Jun 17, 2007 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

stupid msg board.

this goes here

by colintj on Jun 18, 2007 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Buehrle

You are right. But we all remember this...
http://tinyurl.com/37qv69

And like I said, we walked into this season with him, Contreras, and Crede all as major question marks for the upcoming season mainly do to concerns with their continued regression.

by krushcuts on Jun 18, 2007 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Farm Talent...

Sorry forgot the other half of the comment.

I may have been unclear with how I worded that, but I meant to say the Sox organization talent will still be worse than the O's even after Dye and Buehrle are traded.

It is just my opinion as far as the state of things go. There is still a half season left, but there is not a great deal of optimism in regards to that.

by krushcuts on Jun 18, 2007 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought we'd be a team that was

a couple games over .500 and probably not any better in 2008, so, really, it's just as well, because the window was such that a piece or two wasn't going to bring us another championship. The real problem is the perceived value these guys have as a result of this ridiculous implosion.

by colintj on Jun 18, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree that Buehrle is

experiencing "continued regression", though that's probably just a typo. I also don't see how the talent in the farm system goes down if we trade Dye and Buehrle. Furthermore, I don't agree that the season was doomed from the beginning. Dye, Konerko and the bullpen have all been not just below average, but they've been below replacement level. Konerko's recent hot streak has him at a 3.8 VORP and his EqA splits the difference between his 10th and 25th percentile projections. That's just ridiculous.

by colintj on Jun 18, 2007 1:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs