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What this team needs... is more grinders!

Thecheatsmoking_tiny by The Cheat on in Rumors

[Sun-Times]

St. Louis Cardinals free agent- to-be David Eckstein (right) is becoming target No. 1 on the Sox' offseason wish list. He would give them a leadoff hitter with a career .349 on-base percentage and a sure-handed shortstop. Plus, he and Sox catcher A.J. Pierzynski worked together last offseason in a feud for TNA Wrestling. Team Eckstein won.
What this team is really lacking is more players who disguise their lack of talent under a layer of grit and 5 o'clock shadow.
*****

I was about to make a post about Eckstein, but since Blondie drew faster, I'll just add the other parts in the end of this post! (wiz)

In other news,

And here's the latest Palehose 7 strip: Tired.

And look inside for Ozzie's latest rant.

Star-divide

Ozzie thinks there is a double standard:

"The manager eight miles from me [the Cubs' Lou Piniella] was mother-[expletive] his players -- 'I need good players' -- and no one said [expletive]. I say we need to play better, and all of a sudden they say, 'Ozzie is a piece a [expletive].' Lou said, 'I need [expletive] players, I bring in this guy, no one does the job,' and [the reaction is], 'Oh, Lou is tough, Lou is great.' I say anything close to what he says, and I'm the bad guy, I'm the [expletive]. My players won't love me anymore? Well, don't love me anymore. Don't like me, but win for me, and everything will be fine. I'd rather they say that than, 'Oh, Ozzie is great, he's my friend, he loves my kids and we're in last place.' [Expletive] that. When they see my wife, I hope they say, 'Look at that [expletive], that's Ozzie's wife, she's [married] to a piece of [expletive] like him.' Good, as long as in October we have the trophy. That's what I want. I'd rather they hate me and we win because when we win, no one hates anyone. ... Are we out of this thing? Yes. But we got to win as many as we can because we got a schedule to play, pride to play. It gets to the point where, wow, it's embarrassing to the owner. It's embarrassing to [general manager Ken Williams]. It's embarrassing to me, my coaching staff. If [the players] aren't embarrassed then they should get the [expletive] out."
but he doesn't forget to sweet-talk JR:
"Yeah, we're not too far away, but if I say we're not too far away, it's like, 'What kind of (expletive) you looking at?' If you're in last place and have to jump this guy, this guy, this guy, (expletive), we're far away. A lot of people think (chairman Jerry Reinsdorf's) a piece of (expletive). Jerry's not a piece of (expletive). Jerry (did) a lot of good things for Chicago, and people don't appreciate that. Well, I feel like I'm stealing Jerry's money right now because I have pride. I feel embarrassed that this guy's paying me a lot of money to run that (expletive). He can pay his kid right now 20 bucks and go run the White Sox. He's paying me all this money for that (expletive)?"

The Tribune and Daily Herald versions of Ozzie's rants.

0 recs | Comment 76 comments

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griders?
i know what this site is really lacking...
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 31, 2007 12:50 PM CDT   0 recs

how to make it work
'edit' menu / preferences / navigator / languages

on the end of the box, there is a 'spelling' area with a 'when typing check my spelling' drop-down menu with 3 options: never, in multiline boxes, all boxes

the default was multiline, I changed it to all and now it spellchecks everything

at least that's in seamonkey, I suspect firefox is the same

by The Wizard on Aug 31, 2007 2:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that photo
is ripe for captioning.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 31, 2007 12:52 PM CDT   0 recs

Is Eckstein ideal?
No. But let's look at the birds this stone will kill: A. No more Uribe. B. he'll eliminate the need for one of Oz's beloved 'speed guys' at the top of the lineup, namely Jesse Owens.

Also, the options out there are limited. The FA market is light on SS, and unless we can bait a pitcher and nab Tejada or Furcal, it's Torpedo Boat once again. From what's been said, Richar doesn't seem to have the skills for SS, and with Fields in left, another defensive liability is too much of a gamble.

All grinder jokes aside, I'd take Eck, at a reasonable contract, over Uribe any day of the week.

by southsider80 on Aug 31, 2007 1:02 PM CDT   0 recs

Adding Eckstein...
is putting a band-aid over a sucking chest wound.  He's not going to make this team a contender, and the Sox will just be paying for his decline phase.  By the time they're ready to contend, they'd be looking for a replacement for Eckstein.

Adding Eckstein wouldn't be bad, just completely pointless.  He brings nothing to the table.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 1:08 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You aren't going far enough
It would be a bad move.

He's 32 with a .334 OBP this season. He's a good candidate to suck next season, let alone in the final year of  his 3 yr deal. Plus what will it take to sign him? $7M per year is a good guess I think. That's enough money help handcuff the team financially. I'd rather see those dollars used to sign whomever the Sox  draft.

Seriously, Pods had a .330 OBP last season. And that was abysmal. Eckstein is supporting his OBP with a .290 average so I won't be surprised if it's lower next season. And speed? He has 8 steals. that won't satisfy Oz.

I foresee a move like this leading to Eckstein hitting #2 and Owens in CF leading off.

The only benefit of the Sox signing Eckstein would be that it would help me make up my mind about whether or not the Sox need a new GM.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 31, 2007 1:19 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Right.
If the Sox sign Eckstein, it would be a complete desperation move - floundering around without any sort of long-term plan.

I'm telling you, this organization reminds me more and more of the Baltimore Orioles every day.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 1:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thing is...
we have to pay someone to play SS. Who? Don't know. We all know we've got squat in the minors. But if came down to 7 million for Eck or 5 mill for Uribe, I'd take Eck (even though, I agree, the problem would be in the length of the deal).

Now, I'd explore a number of better options first. Hell, if KW wants to be smart and rebuild (realizing that competing next year will be damn near impossible), then I'd go with Gonzalez at SS over Uribe, just to save the money.

by southsider80 on Aug 31, 2007 1:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There's no way
it would be a 1-year thing, which is the only way I wouldn't put up a fight. It would be either 2 plus an option for three, or three guaranteed. Probably the latter on the free agent market.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Aug 31, 2007 1:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The more I think about it...
the more I think I might take Uribe.  Uribe is cheaper, younger, much better defensively, would require much less of a commitment, and heck, I think there's a decent chance that he outproduces Eckstein on offense next year.  If those were the only two options, I'd bring back Uribe for one more year and delay the real decision until 2009.

Simply throwing in the towel and putting Andy Gonzalez out there might be an even better idea, but I know that Williams won't do that.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 2:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll take Uribe for 1 year
Over Eckstein for 3. I think Uribe, in a contract year, has a better chance to pop off a good season than Eckstein at this point in his career. I'm all for improving OBP on the team. But .330 isn't that good. Especially in the 1 or 2 slots in the order.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 31, 2007 2:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ditto.
Though his arm sucks.  He's at least a grinder who produces something other than DL visits.
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 31, 2007 1:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He missed
30+ games last year, and is 40+ games light this year.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Aug 31, 2007 1:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sign him ASAP.
We have Alex to back him up.

Money is no object.

You reap what you sow.

by ballyb on Aug 31, 2007 1:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Do I get to change my vote, Alex?
A hanging chad, perhaps?  If he's not up to playing 150+ games/year, screw it.  Start Richar at SS and save the bread.
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 31, 2007 1:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if it's eck v. torpedo
for me, it's anchors away.

sorry, but i don't want erstad redux. uribe and a proper hitting coach, now we're talking.

now where's that damn flame-retardant suit?

by thatshortkid on Aug 31, 2007 1:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What's Paul Molitor doing these days?
He had great, simple form. Not sure what he was like as a coach.
You reap what you sow.

by ballyb on Aug 31, 2007 1:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He was the one
that may have cost Ichiro a shot at .400 a couple years ago by suggesting he try to stay in the box and hit with more power.  He hit .255 in April, scrapped it, and he hit .392 the rest of the way.
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Aug 31, 2007 1:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

wow, that is beyond retarded
Be Id prefer anyone over Greg Walker.
"Bad is bad, and we're bad." -Don Cooper

by omnipotent grab on Aug 31, 2007 3:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Stone was high on Eckstein yest
Take it for what that means. He thought he'd be a good addition to any team, not just the Sox.
What will a .290 NL hitter do in the AL?
Last place - help me from going to these games .

by Brush Back on Aug 31, 2007 1:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

A quick guess...
.270/.310/.330.  But it would be grindy!  Hawk would be really happy!

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 1:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll tell you what Deej
I thought Eckstein was a damn good player before he came here. But since I've had the pleasure of watching him go at it day-in-day-out, he's even better than I expected.

Meahwhile, he's leading the AL in outs while slugging .330 and playing a noodle-armed rangeless SS.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Aug 31, 2007 1:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

gotta agree with you 100%
he just looks like a baseball player.

meanwhile, groundout 4-3.

Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 31, 2007 1:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He'll play the game the right way
What with him being all white and not particularly athletic for an MLB player.

This is like pennance for the 2005 season. First Erstad and now Eckstein looms. I can't stand it (with "it" being the ubiquitous praise and giving of at-bats and cash to guys that aren't that good).

On the other hand, if the Sox sign The Legend it does allow the prospect of Eckstein, Rowand, and Erstad all colliding on pop-up to short left-center. It would be like a grinder supernova.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 31, 2007 2:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

V, VG
"pennance for the 2005 season.

First Erstad and now Eckstein looms."

You reap what you sow.

by ballyb on Aug 31, 2007 2:11 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lol... grinder supernova
Almost fell out my chair laughing - It almost might be worth it to see 2 or 3 times in a season!
Last place - help me from going to these games .

by Brush Back on Aug 31, 2007 2:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely hilarious.
I'm going home now for the long weekend.....

by palehose67 on Aug 31, 2007 3:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

that's hilarious
Can you imagine Hawk's reaction if they all got injured on the same play?  He'd be blubbering like a baby, "I'm not afraid to admit it Feisty, I'm jest devastated"
"I thought we were just playing bad, but, no, we're horseshit." - Oswaldo Guillen, Sr.

by ChicagoPete on Aug 31, 2007 3:02 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

defensive metrics
have almost all agreed that Eckstein is  average to above average at short. In fact UZR has him pretty close to Juan this year at 3 vs. 5 runs saved per 150, although in years past Juan has been excellent.

Also OPS+ significantly underestimates the difference between their offensive value because as we know OBP is sig. (1.8 times more) more important than slugging and this is that rare instance of comparing the worst OBP in baseball (I just assumed juan had it and sure enough I was right) to an average OBP but low slugging player. All together Eck is going to be sig. more valuable than Juan. Eckstein's EQA is .250, Juan's is .208. Eckstein 6.7 VORP despite less playing time. Juan -14.6.

I for one would rather get an extra win or two and suffer through Hawk and DJ slobbering all over him. I wouldn't mind bringing him on board for 2 yrs. at 5-7 mill. a year. I think you guys are greatly overestimating his market. But time will tell. I would be against 3 yrs. at 7 mill a year.

Probably because I have season tics I am not in the "well if we're not going to the playoffs I don't mind us sucking" category. I'm more like "I want to see a playoff team, but I'd rather see us win 82 games than 70". Now at this point in the season I'd rather see us lose and have a shot at Pedro Alvarez.

by bhoov on Aug 31, 2007 2:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Eckstein...
will be easily the best shortstop on the market this winter (not that that's saying a whole lot) - I think a team that signs him at 3/$21 million will count themselves lucky.  There are a lot of teams what will drastically overpay for mediocrity, and Eckstein's reputation is a lot bigger than his actual talent.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 2:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

we shall see
but I'd probably give him 2 yrs at 7 mill a year.

by bhoov on Aug 31, 2007 2:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Stone is high period.
He's had good things to say about Jerry Owens. I mistrust his judgment.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 31, 2007 1:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Not sold on his judgement
He's intersting to listen to, though the more you hear him... like I said, take it for what its worth. Per steve, Eck has a high baseball acumen
Last place - help me from going to these games .

by Brush Back on Aug 31, 2007 2:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Cheat
I was getting to ready to post, but since you already did, I put my stuff on the end of your post.

by The Wizard on Aug 31, 2007 1:16 PM CDT   0 recs

Cubs get Trachsel?
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7175092

Are we the only douchebags that can't unload our sucky vet pitchers?  Even GD Boomer gets picked up.  What, Count isn't good enough to eat some garbage innings in a pennant race?  Castro's dead, right?

Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 31, 2007 1:20 PM CDT   0 recs

it's all about the benjamins
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 31, 2007 1:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

We could share our Benjamins
with their Benjamins.  So we have less Benjamins to have to pay our dead weight.  I'd do that.  Who says we have to completely cut the entire $10MM?
Your '08 White Sox management: A bunch of jag bags

by winningugly on Aug 31, 2007 1:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

you must realize
the number is closer to $22 million. he's signed through 2009. that's quite hefty.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 31, 2007 1:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep.
Meanwhile, Trachsel only has a rather cheap option for next year that the Cubs will have no problem getting out of.  The Cubs aren't looking for a long-term solution - just a guy to help them get through September.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 1:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

my hope with contreras
is that the sox got a nice insurance policy on his contract.
Jerry Owens: he's a g*ddamn lead off hitter

by larry on Aug 31, 2007 1:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Cubs better use Trachsel in garbage time then
because he really sucks.

Trachsel has given up 151 hits in 140.2 innings pitched while walking 69 and striking out only 45. That's good for a 1.56 WHIP.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And KW
doesn't pick up contracts.

by southsider80 on Aug 31, 2007 1:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ROFL...
The Cubs gave up Scott Moore and Rocky Cherry for the bum.  Haha.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

god
that would be awful.
Go Badgers!

by shaftr on Aug 31, 2007 1:21 PM CDT   0 recs

I dont want him
because I don't want to hear Hawk slob all over his knob too.  Erstad was already enough this year and he was injured most of the year. Imagine the nut swinging Hawk & DJ will do if Erstad & Eckstein are together next year. Its scary
Bring Back BA

by marco054 on Aug 31, 2007 2:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Replacing Uribe with Eckstein...
is like eating shit with whipped cream on top of it instead of just eating the shit.

At least Torii Hunter and Andruw Jones were mentioned in the same article as possible CF targets.  But get back to me when the White Sox give up the big bucks to a top free agent.  It's been awhile (Albert Belle).

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:30 PM CDT   0 recs

And how is Eckstein considered a...
"sure-handed shortstop"?  He throws like a freaking girl.  There are high school shortstops out there with better arms than Eckstein.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think they mean...
that he doesn't make a lot of errors (I know that doesn't say much about a player's defense, but a lot of people seem to think that it does), but that's not even true this year.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 2:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

see above
Eckstein is an average to above average SS.

by bhoov on Aug 31, 2007 2:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Too bad Eckstein would put up...
Erstad-like numbers in the A.L. Central.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

To be fair
Erstad-like numbers at SS wouldn't be that terrible, especially if Eckstein is still playing the average SS that UZR has him pegged at.

But Jerry said it best -- it's putting a bandaid on a gaping wound.  So it makes us a win better for 2008 -- big deal.  Deal Garland and get a SS -- Furcal?  Tejada?  Renteria or Lillibridge + others?

by CWSKeith on Aug 31, 2007 7:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bingo...
Dealing Garland for a SS prospect fills a massive hole on our team and also dumps the $12 million dollars of an average starting pitcher.  Then we can spend that $12 million on an outfielder.  Gio is going to be better than Garland anyways.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 7:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Furcal or Lillibridge would be great...
With Furcal, you get a vet who is a FA in a year and offers you draft picks if he leaves. It's a nice compromise between "going for it" in 2008 and rebuilding. Sort of. Plus he's a SS that could leadoff. What a dream that would be.

I don't know much about Lillibridge -- I swear I saw him pegged as a AAAA player somewhere but he's obvioulsy be hot lately. It's scary to deal with ATL, but I do it for a middle infield prospect. The problem is I don't see them picking up Garland's salary. I still think LAD, LAA, or SEA are more likely destinations. Let's hope Jon pitches himself into marketability in Sept.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 31, 2007 11:29 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Like Pete said yesterday,
Williams should come clean and say that we need to rebuild. Or spend some real $$$$$$$$.

Eckstein
Rowand
.
.
.

Are all Bandaids and expensive ones at that.

Either spent alot of money - get AROD and Andrew Jones - AND SIGN the best draft choice available.

Or TRADE off everyone and start with prospects / young talent.

I will and I think most people will respect you more.

You reap what you sow.

by ballyb on Aug 31, 2007 2:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I will admit that A-Rod is a bit unrealistic...
but if Kenny doesn't sign either Andruw Jones or Torii Hunter, well, fuck him and fuck Reinsdorf.  They can take this team and shove it up their money-grubbing asses.  Sox fans are still going to games even now that we are the biggest joke in the MLB.  There is a lot of money being made by the Sox.  Sox fans deserve better than free agent signings like Darin Erstad.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I would be very surprised...
if the Sox signed Hunter, and absolutely shocked if they signed Jones.  Jones is a Boras client.

And I don't I want the Sox to overpay for Jones's or Hunter's decline phase.  This team needs to get younger, not older.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 2:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The only way we are getting younger...
is with Fields, Richar, and some young pitchers.  Kenny has already stated that he will not be completely rebuilding the team so why bother discussing it?

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 2:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That doesn't mean...
I have to be happy about the team getting older.

When the team is close to contention, that's when I'll support bringing in overpriced veterans.

The White Sox already signed the best potential free agent on the market in Buehrle.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Aug 31, 2007 3:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't want to see Hunter or Jones in a Sox uni,
nor do I want to see A-Rod or Eckstein.

Frankly, this team is not one or two big bats away from contending.    We've got last-place talent in Chicago, and garbage in the minors.  We can play Baltimore and buy up mid-level FAs to bolster our shit team every offseason, sure.  And I'm sure we can enjoy organizational success just like theirs.

We have the fourth-highest payroll in baseball.  Don't think our failure is the result of tight-firsted ownership; we're not the Twins trying to decide which of our home-grown superstars we can afford to re-sign and which we'll have to let walk.   No, our problem is that we've overpaid for players in their decline phase, and it's biting us in the ass now that they've declined a bit faster than we had hoped.

What we need is young, cheap talent in our system.  What we do not at all need is more declining veterans with eight-digit pricetags and multi-year demands.

by Dongfang Hong on Aug 31, 2007 4:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This starting lineup couldn't contend?
AJ
Konerko
Richar
AROD
Crede
Fields
A Jones
Jermaine
Thome

MB
Vazquez
Garland
Danks
Floyd/Gio/Egbert

Bullpen

Unrealistic, but it would contend.

You reap what you sow.

by ballyb on Aug 31, 2007 4:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nothing an extra 45 - 50 mil won't assist with
Can you imagine Richar going out with them... they'd probably make the rookie pickup the tab.
Last place - help me from going to these games .

by Brush Back on Aug 31, 2007 4:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So,
Assuming we sign A-Rod and Jones at ruinous cost, and assuming no other declines next year--that is, assuming that Thome, Konerko, AJ, and Dye do not get any worse--and assuming that the Tigers and Indians do nothing to improve themselves (nor do the Twins and Royals)...

That makes us, what, a PECOTA-projected 86-win team?  In a weak division, and with some lucky breaks, we'd contend.  Whee.

by Dongfang Hong on Aug 31, 2007 11:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

(Assuming
that the pitching staff all hits its 50th percentile, as do Fields, A-Rod, and Jones, of course)

by Dongfang Hong on Aug 31, 2007 11:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

They'll be touting that
to get a few more people into the stands. As well they should.
You reap what you sow.

by ballyb on Aug 31, 2007 2:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kenny's moved on
He no longer covets the 1990s Cleveland Indian players. He's now targeting the 2002 Angels and maybe some ex-Twins.

by hitlesswonder on Aug 31, 2007 3:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Speaking of David Eckstein and the Cardinals...
They just acquired Russell Branyan from the Phillies for a PTBNL to serve as insurance for Scott Rolen at third base.

by SSH2005 on Aug 31, 2007 3:38 PM CDT   0 recs

ozzie montana?
anybody else read his comments and think:

What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of fuckin' assholes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be? You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." So... what that make you? Good? You're not good. You just know how to hide, how to lie. Me, I don't have that problem. Me, I always tell the truth. Even when I lie. So say good night to the bad guy! Come on. The last time you gonna see a bad guy like this again, let me tell you. Come on. Make way for the bad guy. There's a bad guy comin' through! Better get outta his way!

by thatshortkid on Aug 31, 2007 4:36 PM CDT   0 recs

nah
I was thinking: You want me on that wall. You need me on that wall
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Aug 31, 2007 4:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll be leading the charge
in calling for KW's head if he signs Eckstein.

by BustedFlush on Aug 31, 2007 5:32 PM CDT   0 recs