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Super Duper Tuesday

For those of you in SSS-land that swing a little to the left and are in the 24 states coming up 2/5 (or any remaining thereafter, for that matter), here are your choices:





I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'....

My name is thatshortkid and I approve this message.

Update [2008-1-31 3:41:6 by The Cheat]: About the only rule on SSS -- besides don't be a complete jackass -- is no politics. It's not written down anywhere, and I don't think I've ever had to enforce it, but this thread has the possibility to get there. I'm leaving it open because I trust you guys to keep it civil. We're all Sox fans, remember. We're on the same team. Let's keep it that way.

Carry on.

SouthSideSox is a community driven site. As such, users are able to express their thoughts and opinions in a FanPost, such as this one, which represents the views of this particular fan, but not necessarily the entire community or SouthSideSox editors.

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Lol
The final straw!
"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Jan 30, 2008 5:36 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i vote on hotness of wife
kucinich still has my vote. obama has illinois locked up, anyway.

by larry on Jan 30, 2008 6:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

For that to work out...
do you then take Bill Clinton's hotness into account as far as voting for Hillary is concerned? ;)
That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Jan 30, 2008 6:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Kucinich's wife
Was kind enough to participate in the "Is America ready for a FLILF?" segment on the Daily Show. So, she's hot and has a sense of humor. Plus a pierced tongue. She was definitely underutilized by his campaign.

by hitlesswonder on Jan 30, 2008 11:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

that sounds hilarious
and she doesn't seriously have a pierced tongue, does she?  holy crap.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Jan 31, 2008 5:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't realize Uribe had put on THAT much weight!
;)
That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Jan 30, 2008 6:25 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah.. I'm disappointed
Edwards had my vote and now he's no longer running. I liked him the best and trusted him the most. It's a shame he had to run the same year as a white female and a black male.

Maybe he can latch onto Barack as the VP if he wins the nomination.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 30, 2008 6:51 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

and yes, Larry
Kucinich's wife is the hottest. I agree with Kucinich's policies too. It's a shame he looks so odd. Appearances aren't everything, but they are a lot, and he looks really, really... uhm... odd.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 30, 2008 6:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

umm...
edwards ran and failed to garner the nomination in '04 as well with neither hillary nor obama anywhere to be found.
"On the run from Johnny Law...ain't no trip to Cleveland."

by Toonderstrook on Jan 30, 2008 7:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

to be fair, toonder
no way edwards was going to stand in the way of his rivals' attempts at making history as white guys from new england being president.

by thatshortkid on Jan 30, 2008 8:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

huh?
"On the run from Johnny Law...ain't no trip to Cleveland."

by Toonderstrook on Jan 30, 2008 8:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

bad joke, hastily written
as i was leaving work. edwards' two main rivals going into '04 were kerry and dean, iirc. edwards stated today that he wasn't going to 'stand in the way of history' or something to that effect.

by thatshortkid on Jan 30, 2008 9:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What of us who lean the opposite
direction - you know the adults on this site?  McCain's wife is pretty hot, too.  (Though Rudy's wife #3 looked pretty fetching last night for a MILF, and Fred Thompson's wife, an actress, probably can suck the chrome off a bumper - as most starlets are required to do.)

Post a pic of Kucinich's better half - I am unfamiliar with the gnome's spouse.

SC, your Southern is showing.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 30, 2008 7:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i thought adults were independents...
who have figured out that there are two parties in name alone.
"On the run from Johnny Law...ain't no trip to Cleveland."

by Toonderstrook on Jan 30, 2008 7:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Is"moderate" in your lexicon, T-man?
Gotta "bridge".  And I voted for John Anderson in 1980 - didn't want to send a "protest" vote for Ronnie Paul.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 30, 2008 7:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

moderation is my middle name.
just ask my yogi.
"On the run from Johnny Law...ain't no trip to Cleveland."

by Toonderstrook on Jan 30, 2008 7:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

'protest' vote?
you should tell that to the fine folks of southern california. i've only seen banners, etc. of paul's in the conservative bastion that is orange county.

also in the vastness i call "between here and vegas", but, well, yeah.

by thatshortkid on Jan 30, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

McCain is a kook
I'd love to hear a debate between the voices in his head and the voices in Bush's.
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 30, 2008 10:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah, Pete, getting personal already
To compare Bush's mindset to McCain is ridiculous.  McCain at least stands for something that has some basis in today's world - Bush is on another planet, one of the most disappointing Prresidents in the history of the US, IMO.  And I voted for him, twice (though I supported McCain in 2000).  Not sure Kerry/Gore would've been better, but the devil I know has been more disappointing and embarassing than any of my failed marriages - and, believe me, that's saying something.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 7:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

His mind is broken
You ever seen him on Meet the Press or one of those shows?  Just listen to him talk in something more than sound bite snippets, he's deranged.  God love him for being a POW, I admire him for that.  But you spend five years in a hole it does something to your mind.  That's not the person I want making decisions as president.
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 8:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, he's good enough to sponsor
legislation re: campaign finance, has good ideas on immigration, is not against gay marriage, etc.  And anyone that can piss off Rush Limbaugh AND the Clintons is OK by me.

(I also love that he used the "F" bomb when pushed by his fellow Senator.)

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

mccain's the guy bush purported to be
i like john.  he has no talent for orating and he knows it, so he just emphasizes the things he thinks are right.  he's blunt but a listener.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Jan 31, 2008 5:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks Toonder!
I'm glad someone else brought that point up so I didn't have to!

FWIW, it seems to me that you say a lot more with your vote by voting for an independent, ie someone outside of the two party system. If you are not happy with the state of the political system, you are throwing your vote away by voting for the major parties instead of taking the opportunity to voice your displeasure with them by voting for someone else.

If you're happy with the status quo, then my argument doesn't hold much water.

I realize that's a bit of an idealistic notion, but it's something I think more people should consider since I hear a lot of complaining about the state of American Politics.

I also think that you vote with where you spend your money and that this form of voting has a much more immediate, and possibly larger, effect on what's going on around you.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 2, 2008 7:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

huh????
You voted for Bush.... TWICE?! I can see voting for him the first time, as a lot of people were duped the first go 'round. But a second time??? Was this before you quit taking psychedelics?

Seriously... you worry me old man. I have to doubt your judgements from here on out :)

But how is my Southern showing? The South is almost entirely 'Red'. I go against the beaten path and vote Democratic. Have so since I was able to vote in 2001. (I voted for Edwards in 2004, then again for Kerry/Edwards for the presidential)

Now, if Hillabeast wins the nomination... I'll still vote Democratic... but I will grimace when I hit that button. She's a better vote IMO than any Republican not name Giuliani but she is far from the best Democratic candidate in my book.

I hope Obama wins the nom. And Edwards gets on his ticket.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 31, 2008 11:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Gore? Kerry?
I voted for Clinton in 1992, and would vote for Joe Lieberman in a  heartbeat.  But Gore/Kerry?  Sheesh, give a guy a real choice and we'll see.  Obama in 2012 is a choice.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 11:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

why have him wait till 2012?
will 4 more years in the senate change anything?

by The Wizard on Jan 31, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

when you were in kindergarten,
were you one of those kids who had a check mark in the "needs improvement" column for following directions?
"On the run from Johnny Law...ain't no trip to Cleveland."

by Toonderstrook on Jan 31, 2008 11:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hehe
very often
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 31, 2008 5:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

To add my two cents
Bush did a good job of exploiting people's fears with respect to national security.

In addition, Kerry's campaign wasn't managed very well and he did nothing to distinguish himself. IMO, if he would have gone after on any number of issues (especially the environment and education) he could have distinguished himself, although I think this is the kind of thing Political Science textbooks are written about - not my area of specialty.

Not that it's important, but I didn't vote for Bush either time.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 2, 2008 7:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

WU, given your location and conservative stance
What is your opinion of the present Governor of Florida?

I enjoyed what pieces of his environmental rhetoric I have heard. Seems like an interesting fellow, but I thought it may be wise to check with someone who has a front row seat.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 2, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Crist is an interesting cat
I voted for him, since he was all "lower taxes, smaller gov't" when he was running.  Since he's been elected, though, he's shifted to big gov't (shifting property/casualty hurricane insurance to the state's fund -ergo, the taxpayers are the ones now funing the next hurricane disaster), opposing the gay marriage amendment (as do I, but from a Constitutional standpoint - rumors were before the election that Crist, who is not married, is gay - I don't think so, but the wife is convinced).  I think Crist has always had leanings toward the liberal side, was considered an "empty suit" for a long while while attorney general, and is a good politician, a good looking, well spoken guy.  I think as a Republican he's been especially disappointing (the latest property tax rollback he's sponsored is a freaking joke) but as a moderate he could've done worse.

Bottom line - folks still like him here, but the next hurricane that blows through FL, he's up a creek re: public opinion, and the budget for the state is going to get hammered with the real estate market in the tank, and folks will forget he's not in control of that.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 2, 2008 9:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True dat
I hereby nominate Barack Obama honorary SSS member.  Not only is he a Sox fan, but his favorite show is The Wire:
Obama told the Sun his favorite character is Omar, a stick-up artist who steals from drug dealers and then gives the loot to poor people in the neighborhood.

"That's not an endorsement. He's not my favorite person, but he's a fascinating character."

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 30, 2008 9:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don't want our President
to be akin to the posters on this site - me included.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 7:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

On top of that
he's too young for fantasy camp.
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 8:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bastard, you are, St. Petersburg
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 11:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wire man, Sox fan
Obama's statement on the floor of the U.S. Senate:
Statement of Sen. Barack Obama on the Chicago White Sox
Thursday, October 27, 2005
Senate Floor Statement

I rise today as a U.S. Senator, as an Illinoisan, and as a proud resident of the Southside of Chicago, to congratulate the Chicago White Sox for winning the 2005 World Series. As my fellow Southsiders know, it has been a long time coming.

Founded in 1900 as the Chicago White Stockings, this year's team reached the World Series for the first time since 1959. Over a century of White Sox fans have cheered for superstars such as Luke Appling, Nellie Fox, Carlton Fisk, Luis Aparicio, Harold Baines, and of course Big Frank Thomas. But we haven't savored the sweet taste of a World Series championship since 1917 - until now.

Back then, Woodrow Wilson was President, and the Great War was raging in Europe. The White Sox were a bright spot in tough times.

The Sox won last night the way they have won all season--by playing aggressively, scrapping for every base and every run. When Juan Uribe threw to Paul Konerko for the final out, it was fitting that the ball beat the runner by only half a step. The four games against the Astros were decided by a total of six runs. Win by the skin of your teeth. Win or die trying, that's our motto this year.

Jermaine Dye is the World Series MVP, and I congratulate him for that, but I'm sure he'll be the first to say that everyone on this year's team deserves a part of that award. This is a team with so many great players, but no undisputed leader on the field. I don't claim to be a baseball expert - or particularly unbiased on this matter - but this is one of the most selfless, balanced teams I've ever seen. A team of unlikely heroes.

Scott Podsednik, who hadn't hit a home run all season, stepped up and hit two in the playoffs, including the walk-off winner in Game 2 on Sunday. Willie Harris, who barely played in the playoffs, got a pinch hit to get on base and bring home the only run last night. Geoff Blum, a former Astro, who got a pinch hit homer in the 14th inning to give us the margin of victory in Game 3. And the pitching--four complete games to close out the American League Championship Series. An 11 and 1 record in the playoffs. 15 scoreless innings to finish the World Series.

Before the season started, the Sox were a consensus .500 team. Even as we built and maintained the best record in the American League all season, there were many doubters. Towards the end of the season, we hit a rough patch, and the doubters got louder. They said Cleveland had more playoff experience. They said even if we held on to make the playoffs, we would get embarrassed in the first round. But during the stretch run, manager Ozzie Guillen and his "kids," as he calls them, were calm and relaxed. Even as Cleveland came on strong and our lead in the Central Division dwindled, Ozzie's kids continued to play pranks on each other in the clubhouse, and continued to run hard on the basepaths.

Once the playoffs started, there was no looking back. That difficult September was gone in an instant. We silenced the doubters by sweeping the World Champion Boston Red Sox. We silenced the Angels during the ALCS in five games. And we swept the Astros in four games.

I had the privilege of attending game one of the World Series on Saturday, and the fans in and around the park were a cross-section of the city. There were plenty of folks old enough to remember the '59 team. Almost everyone remembered the 2000 team that made the playoffs. A few were even alive in 1917. A staffer of mine, a Southside Irishman and a Sox fan all his life, mentioned a 92-year-old woman at Saturday's game. She was jumping and cheering so much with every hit and every run that my staffer worried for her health!

I would like to congratulate the entire White Sox organization, in particular Jerry Reinsdorf, Kenny Williams, and Ozzie Guillen. We will be celebrating this victory for a long time on the Southside, around the city of Chicago, and around the entire state of Illinois.

Later today, Senator Durbin and I will be introducing a resolution honoring the White Sox, and we will be asking for its immediate consideration and adoption. Thank you, and I yield the floor.

I don't think you'll see him running around with a Cubbies hat if they get to the WS this year.

 

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 8:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing against Obama...
but wasn't he saying some pro-Cubs things this past October?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 31, 2008 9:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Uh, no
Barack the Perfect presents his Sox bona fides,  and in translated politicalese states that Cubs suck:
A Chicago man visiting Washington with his family raised his hand and asked Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) about something he heard on the radio. Did the senator from the South Side, a devoted Sox fan, really promise to wear Cubs blue and red?

"If during the crosstown classic, if the Cubs beat the White Sox, I have to wear Cubs garb," Obama said, stiffling a laugh. "I have to parade around and say Dusty Baker is my Daddy."

"Fortunately," he added, "this will not happen."


"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lol
good stuff.

I hope he wins the nom.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 31, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

As do I
though he ain't ready to take on the lunatics of the Axis of Evil quite yet.  Talk to me in 2012.  (And maybe he won't want to raise my taxes and roll back dividend/cap. gains rates.)
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Definitely
We need a real man with real cojones to stand firm in Iraq, keep taxes low for the rich white man, and stare down these evil Iranians and North Koreans who threaten the American way of life.  That's no job for a junior senator.
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 5:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL!
It's Chi 'Awesome' Pete time!

by The Wizard on Jan 31, 2008 6:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why only the "rich", "white",
"men"?  Here I thought you were a diversity-seeking, open-minded kind of guy.  You never met a"middle-class", "brown/black/yellow/red", "woman" before who likes lower taxes and less gov't spending/intrusion?
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 7:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It amazes me
that the Bush administration, with a complicit Republican congress, duped middle America into thinking that these ridiculous tax cuts truly benefitted anyone but the upper 1st percentile of taxpayers.  That's the Big Lie told on such a grand scale that even Goebbels would blush.

 

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 8:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pete, I can say with the greatest
degree of certainty, you are talkin' out your neck.  I see people every day that have benefitted from the tax cuts, increased retirement contribution limits, accelerated depreciation allowances and more.   Hell, even the folks in the 15% marginal bracket or less this year benefit by having zero capital gains tax, which allows them to diverify concentrated, risky positions (like Disney stock, bought over 25-30 years) or 2nd homes (if they can sell them).  Really.  I see plenty of folks living on $50-60K/year who are in great financial shape because they don't buy every new gadget, churn their cars every 2 years, and take vacations every other month.  Go talk with some middle-class families and find out.

You ought to read Finacial Times' columns today and get the perspective of folks outside the US who sees our middle class for what it is - one of the true "middle classes" in the world.  Most of the universe outside the US is represented only by the have's and the have not's.  One Indian gentleman writes about it rather eloquently in today's paper.

No doubt Georgie is a buffoon personally and professionally.  But to imply the tax cuts only benefitted a select few is inaccurate and irresponsible.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 8:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

re
I see plenty of folks living on $50-60K/year who are in great financial shape

I wish we could say the same about our country

get the perspective of folks outside the US who sees our middle class for what it is

I have conversations with people that have lived both in and out (Europe) the US on our middle class among other topics

the word that best describes their opinion is 'joke'

by The Wizard on Jan 31, 2008 9:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

spare me please
"even the folks in the 15% marginal bracket or less this year benefit by having zero capital gains tax" - so you've found the one person in a thousand in the 15% bracket who actually benefits from the zero capital gains tax?  I beg to differ, it's of much greater benefit to high earners.  Ask these kids on SSS getting out of college or fresh out of college if they give a shit about having a zero capital gains tax.  I think they'd prefer an economy on sound financial footings.

If you want I can break out graphs and statistics showing where the great bulk of all these tax savings have accrued.  Sure there's been some sops to the (rapidly shrinking) middle classes, but in the main they've gone to people who didn't need the money in the first place (myself included).  To argue otherwise is myopic.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 9:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pete, the last time I looked,
most college kids don't pay taxes!  So any tax breaks (or raises, to be frank) would not affect them/you very much.  Every college kid who graduates and enters the workforce has a tough time.  Generally you expect to climb in both authority and salary as the years progress.  In 1980 I made $4/hour as a counselor at a Salvation Army in your new town of Indianoplace with a BA from Purdue.  And I had finaced my own college education and had loans (which, adjusted for inflation, are eerily similar to those most students are faced with today).

And wiz, tax cuts can be financed with debt or increased revenues.   The cuts actually increased tax receipts far above any govt. projections.  They worked.  There are other forces at work (globalization, consumption, demographics, entitlements) that help squeeze the middle class, but lower taxes ain't one of 'em.

My last post on this, really.  It'd be great to have a beer or two and discuss this but that's not what I come to the site for, so I'll let go and, as Hazy says, listen for your answer.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 6:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Amazing how over the last 7 years
We've gone from "Tax and spend liberals" to "Red ink Republicans".

I'm with Buffet on this one: there's something wrong with a system that has his secretary paying a higher % of her wages in taxes than he does:

"Speaking at a $4,600-a-seat fundraiser in New York for Senator Hillary Clinton, Mr Buffett, who is worth an estimated $52 billion (£26 billion), said: "The 400 of us [here] pay a lower part of our income in taxes than our receptionists do, or our cleaning ladies, for that matter. If you're in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to think about the other 99 per cent."
Mr Buffett said that he was taxed at 17.7 per cent on the $46 million he made last year, without trying to avoid paying higher taxes, while his secretary, who earned $60,000, was taxed at 30 per cent. Mr Buffett told his audience, which included John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, and Alan Patricof, the founder of the US branch of Apax Partners, that US government policy had accentuated a disparity of wealth that hurt the economy by stifling opportunity and motivation.
Lloyd Blankfein, the chief executive of Goldman Sachs, acknowledged in an interview yesterday that there were justified concerns about the huge profits generated by private equity firms and that he worried that income inequality was "poisoning democracy". He also said that he would be voting for the Democrat candidate at the next election. Mr Blankfein is the highest-paid executive on Wall Street, earning $54 million last year.

Mr Buffett, who runs the investment group Berkshire Hathaway and is widely regarded as the world's most successful investor, said that he was a Democrat because Republicans are more likely to think: "I'm making $80 million a year - God must have intended me to have a lower tax rate."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/money/tax/article1996735.ece

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 1, 2008 8:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

shield your eyes
Well, it's good that other high earners are ashamed about the gross inequities of these tax cuts.  You want graphs and stats Ugly?  Here's how your beloved zero capital gains tax has worked, get out your magnifying glass to view that flyspeck which represents your 15% bracket client benefitting from this.  A whole $11 is the average benefit for people earning less than $50,000:

There's plenty more graphic evidence like this for the other components of the tax cuts, the charts all skew like this.  Did some middle class people benefit? - of course they did.  Did the lions share of the benefit accrue to the extreme end of the income spectrum? - of course they did.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 9:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wing-nut Welfare
Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 1, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tax cuts and increased revenue
This is obviously a contentious issue, but again I think the numbers actually show the cuts haven't paid for themselves.

It's difficult to figure out the truth here, because lots of people's jobs are actually to produce reports and numbers justifying certain policies. You only have to head over to the Heritage Foundation website to learn that tax cuts do pay for themselves...at least according to their economists.

by hitlesswonder on Feb 1, 2008 9:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do we have any economists here?
Throwing politics aside, this really is reminiscent of an argument in baseball in which people perceive things but numbers hold the truth. I don't know what the numbers say, but certainly the question is not only who benefited from the tax cuts, but how much did various people benefit. And the flip side is that the tax cuts are financed with debt. At some point, someone will pay off that debt -- perhaps through raised taxes. Then the question will be who paid how much to pay off the debt. I don't have those numbers (some of which obviously don't exist yet). But that's where answer is, and it's actually  sort of fascinating. If there were an economist among us, I'd be interested in knowing what the numbers currently are (wherever they might be available).

Anyway, here's hoping this isn't the post that gets this diary closed.  

by hitlesswonder on Jan 31, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think
the Brian Anderson arguments, Aardsma DFA, Garland trade, and Linebrink signing were much more heated topics than this.

This is weak sauce in comparison.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 31, 2008 10:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Isn't Ron Paul an economist?
(Not that he could actually help us in this specific situation here, rendering my comment rather pointless.)

I tried reading a few political threads over at Soxtalk, and I see the discussion there isn't really a whole lot different (better) than the discussion that takes place on the baseball part of it.  And for a person like myself who isn't very politically informed (I'm trying to get better, I really am!  I'm taking a PolySci class and am trying to add The Daily Kos to my daily blog-glossover), it sucks not knowing who's got a respectable opinion and whatnot.

So seriously...  Ron Paul -- just a kook, or a guy who's called a kook just because his ideas appear to be separate from everyone elses?

by CWSKeith on Jan 31, 2008 11:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ron paul...
i think he's a kook. :)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 1, 2008 6:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yes, kook
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 9:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not an economist, but read something recently
Near the end of "The only investment guide you'll ever need", Tobias explains in very basic terms how a government carrying a reasonable amount of debt isn't all that big of a deal. With a very broad stroke, he talks in generalities about US gov't economics in the space of 4 pages.

Probably enough knowledge to make one dangerous, but thought it might be interesting to you. I would recommend the book as I thought it was a pretty good read despite the subject matter of personal finances.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 1, 2008 5:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just like us, bro
If you are using leverage and getting a greater after-tax return on assets that have a lower cowt of capital, you are in the money.  Leverage isn't necessarily a badthing -only when you can't service the debt or don't intend on ever repaying the principal.

And Pete, you SOB (I say it with love) when 1% of the population pay 30+% of the tax, I think that's somewhat equitable.  (Actually, not - I'd like the nice Forbesian flat 17% tax meself.)

Damn, I wish I were going to be there in March hearing your caterwauling about the financial inequities of he world.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 6:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

by March 15 the nominees
are decided.  The only caterwauling is over the egregious number of ABs given to Owens.
I suspect politics won't be discussed, though you will be for sure.
:-)
Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 1, 2008 7:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

godwin! WU wins.
shit, i only meant this as a 'hey, look, it's a cubs fan and a sox fan, isn't that funny?' thread.

by thatshortkid on Jan 31, 2008 9:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And funny pictures they are
I find it humorous that Hillary's outfits match the hats.

by hitlesswonder on Jan 31, 2008 10:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pusses
Healthy debate is the bedrock of our freedom.

Emphasis on "healthy debate".  But to each his/her own.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 11:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

true
but not here. we've already got people asking whether another poster was deemed a retard in kindergarten. and claims that one of the candidates is basically insane. one can marshal good evidence for baseball talk. one can do a little bit of the same for politics. but, unlike baseball talk, political debates tend to quickly degenerate. i'm sure enough people hate me on this site already. no need to fuel things by me going any further into this thicket.

by larry on Jan 31, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

deemed a retard? not even close.
i deal with appellate lawyers from some of the most prestigious law firms in the country every day who can't seem to follow even the simplest of instructions. i was merely commenting on SC's missive of his beliefs following cheat's admonition to lighten up on the politics and to put the comment in a context that i assumed everybody could remember (kindergarten = follows directions, shares, plays nicely with others).  you're the one throwing the "retard" connotation out there, not me.
"On the run from Johnny Law...ain't no trip to Cleveland."

by Toonderstrook on Jan 31, 2008 12:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

O-kaaaay
(Retreats to his work....)
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

by the way
until you mentioned it, i didn't notice cheat had edited the diary. i don't re-read the diary entry every time i look at the comments. you may want to consider that others don't, as well.

by larry on Jan 31, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't see it, either
Next topic!
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 12:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sitting out too...
After pointing out (happily!) the origin of this fine site:

http://www.dailykos.com/

Yep, the Great Orange Satan himself!
I believe he spent some years in Chicago before moving to California, though I don't know for whom he cheered.

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Jan 31, 2008 1:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Interesting piece in the WSJ
today re: the Kossacks:

Decline of the Angry Left
By DAN GERSTEIN
February 2, 2008; Page A11

Last Saturday's South Carolina Democratic primary will probably be remembered as the day when the party's emotional dam burst and many of the personal grievances and tensions that have built up over the past generation spilled out into the open -- unleashing a cascading series of freighted squabbles starring a who's who of post-Reagan Democrats (Ted Kennedy, Jesse Jackson, John Kerry and of course Bill Clinton).

That's a shame, not just because it undermined the feel-good storyline of party unity, but more because it overshadowed a fateful statement South Carolina's Democrats made by embracing Barack Obama and exiting John Edwards out of the race. Indeed, at the exact moment their party leaders were loudly replaying the psychodramas of the 1990s (and to some extent the '60s), voters of both races were quietly resolving the pre-eminent conflict of the party's present -- between the politics of hope and the politics of Kos. (That being the Daily Kos, the nation's most influential liberal blog and the left's poster child for partisan pugnacity.)

This conflict is not about ideology but about style. The truth is, over the past several years Democrats have bridged or buried most of the major issue splits that hobbled the party in the past, as evidenced by the absence of big policy debates in this campaign. That's left us to stew, particularly in the wake of John Kerry's embittering loss in 2004, over how we fight the other side. There is a clear generational split.

The Kossacks and their activist allies -- who skew toward the Boomers -- believe that Republicans are venal bordering on evil, and that the way Democrats will win elections and hold power is to one-up Karl Rove's divisive, bare-knuckled tactics. Their opponents within the party -- who skew younger and freer of culture war wounds -- believe that the way to win is offer voters a break from this poisonous tribal warfare and a compelling, inclusive vision for where we want to take the country.

The country got an initial taste of this tactical tussle in 2006 when the Lieberman-Lamont Senate campaign in Connecticut went national -- and an initial test of the relative merits in the general-election portion of that race (in which I was Joe Lieberman's communications director).

With a discredited Republican candidate in the race, the choice came down to two Democrats who actually agreed on most issues outside of Iraq, but differed on the kind of change we need in Washington. Mr. Lieberman called for a new politics of unity and purpose; Mr. Lamont mostly called for Messrs. Bush's and Lieberman's heads.

The hope candidate soundly beat the Kos candidate -- Kos actually taped a commercial for Lamont -- by 10 points. More importantly, Mr. Lieberman won independents (the biggest voting bloc in the state) by 19 points, which is all the more remarkable because they opposed the war by a margin of 65%-29%.

This year's Democratic nominating battle is a far better barometer of the respective generational approaches within the party. That's because it is happening within the context of a true intra-party competition, there is no real disagreement on Iraq or any other core issue, and there is no incumbent. Not least of all, the two young attractive change candidates (Edwards and Obama) running against the establishment candidate (Hillary Clinton) have been offering opposite conceptions of change.

Mr. Edwards, after running as the sunny son of a mill worker in 2004, returned last year as the angry spear carrier of the hard-line left, running on a dark, conspiratorial form of populism and swapping in corporations for Republicans as the villain in his us-versus-them construct. Mr. Obama, on the other hand, has not just been selling possibilities and opportunities, but reconciliation and unity -- and, god forbid, promising to work with Republicans to meet the country's challenges. (Not surprisingly, throughout 2007, Mr. Edwards was the runaway favorite in the regular Kos reader straw poll -- besting Mr. Obama by 21 points as late as Jan. 2, 2008.)

Now that Mr. Edwards has formally dropped out of the race, we can say it's official -- hope and unity crushed resentment and division.

Iowa was perfectly set up for Mr. Edwards -- caucus format instead of primary, tilted heavily left, overwhelming white and rural, and a two-year head start in building an organization. But he lost by a healthy eight points to a black candidate, who, despite his rhetorical gifts and Oprah endorsement, came in less tested and less known. In New Hampshire, another overwhelmingly white state, he lost to Mr. Obama by 20 points.

The outcome in South Carolina was the most telling -- and arguably put the last nail in the coffin of Kos-ism. This was the state where Mr. Edwards and his drawl were born. This was the state he won by 15 points in 2004, even after losing Iowa and New Hampshire to John Kerry. And this was a state that was ostensibly most amenable to his arguments about being the most electable Democrat in red states. Yet Mr. Edwards was rejected by voters across the board, failing to win even a majority of the white vote (40%).

There is no question that Mr. Obama's margin in South Carolina was due in part to the racial makeup of the electorate. But to judge the relative strength of their respective messages, it pays to look at how the candidates did with voters of the other race.

Mr. Obama won 24% of white voters in this former bastion of the Confederacy -- 12 times the 2% share of black voters Mr. Edwards claimed. And the clear majority of those white Obama voters were under 30, a sign that the tide is turning toward Mr. Obama's cross-cultural politics even in the Old South.

Moreover, it bears noting that as late as mid-December, Mr. Obama was running even with Mrs. Clinton among black voters in South Carolina. He ended up beating her 78%-19%. That kind of seismic shift does not happen because of a few off-putting remarks by Bill Clinton or because Mr. Obama is a "celebrity" (Mr. Edwards's favored rationalization). Mr. Obama had to affirmatively sway a good chunk of that vote.

This analysis will likely be seen as a bit of grave-dancing on my part, given that I have been an occasional target of the wrath of Kos. But while I am troubled by their hostile, hyper-partisan tendencies, I think the Kossacks have at their best made enormous contributions to the party over the last few years -- most noticeably by stiffening the Washington establishment's spine in confronting President Bush and energizing and organizing the base. One could credibly argue, in fact, that Mr. Obama would not be in the position to inspire the base if Kos and his allies had not first helped to get them "fired up, ready to go."

In this, you might say that Mr. Obama did not kill Kos-ism so much as co-opt it -- by harnessing its most powerful forces and channeling it in a more constructive, convincing direction for a new political moment. He recognized early on that the primary electorate was changing in the wake of Mr. Bush's departure, and that it was hungry (post-Boomer voters in particular) for something bigger and better than the same polarization wrapped in a blue ribbon.

The signs of change are unmistakable. Over the last year, the Kossacks themselves seemed to be waning -- the number of monthly page views on the site is down dramatically.

Moreover, in the last few weeks they and their avatars have been flocking to the great reconciler. First Ned Lamont endorsed Mr. Obama, a mentee of Mr. Lieberman in the Senate. Then on Wednesday, in the first Daily Kos straw poll after Mr. Edwards left the race, Mr. Obama beat Mrs. Clinton by 76%-11% (a result inflated by the Netroots' unbreakable contempt for Hillary). Just yesterday, MoveOn.org gave its formal blessing to the "post-partisan" candidate.

The best evidence that Kos-ism is about kaput, though, comes from Kos's mouth himself. Yes, the most delicious irony of this campaign is that the supposed hatemonger is supporting the hopemonger.

Seeing the writing on the wall, as well as on his own blog, Markos Moulitsas -- Kos himself -- rejected the candidacy he himself helped spawn and announced (albeit grudgingly) on Dec. 12 that he would be voting for Mr. Obama via "a process of elimination."

Not exactly the most graceful concession, but the import is undeniable: Hope trumped Kos for Democrats. Now let's see what it will do for the rest of the country.

Mr. Gerstein, a senior adviser on Sen. Joe Lieberman's vice presidential and presidential campaigns, is a Democratic strategist and political commentator based in New York.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 2, 2008 9:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Whatever
"Mr. Edwards, after running as the sunny son of a mill worker in 2004, returned last year as the angry spear carrier of the hard-line left, running on a dark, conspiratorial form of populism and swapping in corporations for Republicans as the villain in his us-versus-them construct."

Please. I know this is the WSJ, but that's just silly (and their journalism is usual very level-headed although the editorial page is not so much IMO). Yes, Edwards ran as a populist, but it's not like his stump speech was a spittle-flecked tirade that concluded with him and Hugo Chavez burning CEOs in effigy. I'm sensing some defensiveness here. In any case, I'd be careful about pronouncing populism dead if the US is on the verge of a recession.  

by hitlesswonder on Feb 3, 2008 11:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

a dan gerstein article!
gerstein has been the target of many kos volleys
(example: CT-Sen: Gerstein still stupidest man in politics)

by The Wizard on Feb 4, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Holy crap
I thought I just copy & pasted the top image, but it was one humondoginormous image.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Jan 31, 2008 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hmmmm
i think someone likes obama. a lot.

by larry on Jan 31, 2008 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
He won my heart when -- after the press was pounding Hillary for having a planted question at some Iowa rally -- he had a completely apolitical planted question to mock her. Either that, or he's just really smart, which would be a "change" in the white house.
Barack Obama added another "first" to his already notable list yesterday: he became the first U.S. presidential candidate -- and, I'm guessing, the first high-level elected official in any country -- to have a ready answer to a standard Google engineering interview question. Asked by Eric Schmidt about "the most efficient way to sort a million 32-bit integers," Sen. Obama replied that "the bubble sort would be the wrong way to go." Though some might view this as shameless pandering to the bucket-sorting community, others will see a bold pragmatism
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Jan 31, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, WTF?
I thought politics were out, per an edit above?

When you's da boss, you make da rules, I guess...

;)

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I left it open
I just had to make sure I put out the yellow flag.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Jan 31, 2008 7:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Caution, or penalty?
(NASCAR or football - either way, we are seriously off-topic for SSS.)
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 7:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

fair and balanced
So much for the iron "no politics dammit!" law at SSS.  
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Jan 31, 2008 5:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

All of the options suck...
and I am dreading the fact that I have to vote on one of them.

by SSH2005 on Jan 31, 2008 3:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

you don't have to
today, i voted for myself as a commissioner of the metropolitan water reclamation district of greater chicago. many of us still retain youth so that doesn't really work for president but writing in 'winning ugly' should work just fine.

by larry on Jan 31, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know that you can write-in yourself...
I guess I just feel like white trash if I don't vote.  I will probably just vote for the party, not the candidate.

by SSH2005 on Jan 31, 2008 4:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What are your chances of victory?
Lyndon LaRouche?  Pat Paulson?  Steven Colbert?
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Jan 31, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

nil
mickey mouse will certainly get more votes than me.

by larry on Jan 31, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sabermetric taxes, shield your eyes again
Here's a table showing how the Bush tax cuts have worked.

Read down the column for average federal tax change.  Read down the column for percent change in after tax income.  If you're in the top 1% is it really necessary to milk an extra $44,622/yr from the government teat at the cost to society of running a $500bn annual federal deficit?  Do you need that extra BMW sitting in your driveway that bad?

I watched that Obama/Clinton debate last night.  For obvious reasons they're not talking straight on about raising taxes.  At least Obama had the balls to say that he'll oppose the extension of these Bush tax cuts.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 9:53 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

holy sh*t.
Dude. That just ain't right. I mean I didn't need another reason to despise George W., but wow. This takes it to another level if I understand those numbers correctly (and I may not be reading them right).
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 1, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the argument
is that rich man using his tax cut to purchase the BMW is helping the economy and providing employment and so on to people in the lower quartiles. which in turn increases tax revenues and diminishes the need for social services for the people in the lower quartile who would otherwise need them without their job. and thus the tax cuts, after a lag, pay for themselves. good luck working finding a model that can adequately prove or disprove that argument. this isn't exactly something that can be put into a chart.

most sane and nonpartisan economists will tell you the above is likely true to a point. there is, of course, some point where lowering taxes will no longer serve to increase revenues. the true problem with the tax cuts - the recent ones are a perfect example - is that the government doesn't freeze or cut spending. they just go on spending. we don't have any particular problem with raising enough revenue.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and, to expand on the point
most rich people probably aren't going to use most/all of that tax cut to purchase goods like a BMW (this is why the democrats, quite rightly for what they're trying to do with the proposed stimulus package, want to make sure that the refund checks go to lower income people - who are less likely to "save" it and more likely to spend it). the rich guy is going to invest that money in stocks or whatever. and that helps the economy and so on.

the cleave on this issue probably comes regarding what you think the purpose of government is. if it's to do things like provide a wide range of social services (a, broadly speaking, democratic position), you're going to think those tax cuts are probably not so good. if you think the government should stay out of the way and just let the economy do its thing (republican), these tax cuts are great.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

think these tax cuts are the reason the U.S.
is approaching the big... 'R' word?
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 1, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no
we and everyone else always have and probably always will have recessions. people can blame this (the fed), that (the president), or the other thing (anyone/anything else people think deserves blame) for the recession. but it's like playing whack a mole. address one thing, another problem comes up. get one thing in hand and terrorists fly some planes into building. so on. there's too much going on in an economy and no one - not even the US government (i know that comes as a shock to some) can control it. i'm sure i (and others, notably WU) could wax poetic about the whys of this recession or other recessions. and it certainly wouldn't be one thing that you can finger for it.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 11:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well put (both posts)...
This sounds about right too:

That's why it makes me crazy when people say government is "too big" without explaining what they mean by that. Awhile back some pollster asked people if they thought government was doing "too much" or "not enough." Most people were true to their conditioning and said "too much." But too much of what? Not enough of what? Seems to me the government is doing way too much that it shouldn't be doing but not enough of what it should be doing.

I think large parts of the American public might agree with the argument that we should be using our tax dollars to invest in ourselves rather than burying it in the sand of Iraq. Instead of vague promises to cut taxes and spending (the latter of which never seems to happen) Democrats should be telling people "We're going to see to it that you get value from your tax dollars." Then deliver lower college education costs, better infrastructure, universal health care. I'd like to see it tried, anyway.

http://www.mahablog.com/2007/05/14/bogeyman-taxes/

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 1, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly
we can debate all day long what the highest tax rate should be or what the corporate tax should be or how capital gains should be taxed. but, at the end of the day, the better question (or at least the prior question should be) is whether the government is spending the money they get in such a manner that it is being used in a better way (give or take a little bit because some measure of "income redistribution" is probably okay) than it would be in the hands of the people it was levied from. iraq is a colossal waste of resources. there's so much other stuff that government spends money on that's ridiculous, as well.

the problem, of course, is that it's much easier politically to lower taxes than to lower or "freeze" (adjusted for inflation or a nominal freeze) spending. a perfect example will be the spending for the iraq war. when that begins to really wind up, that money isn't all going to just not be spent by the government - they'll just find new things to spend most/all of it on (and this is either party).

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's just hope it isn't funneled into blowing up
another desert.

I don't have a problem paying high taxes so long as my money is being used efficiently and reasonably towards programs that better the nation.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Feb 1, 2008 12:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly
There's nothing inherently wrong with a tax cut.  The Republican stance since Reagan has been that tax cuts "starve the beast" -i.e., by cutting taxes you force the Democrats to cut federal spending in order to keep federal deficits in line.  Which has some logic to it, and it worked like a charm during the Clinton administration when he co-opted the Republic position and beat them to the punch by presented a budget that actually a balanced budget and then produced a federal surplus - which just happened to coincide with the greatest growth period for the economy in the 20th century.

Then Bush pushes through a tax cut that completely wiped out any surpluses, while simultaneouly conducting a completely unnecessary and incredibly expensive war to, as you say, "blow up a desert."  The result of these policies is $5 trillion in federal debt added during this administration - which is basically how much this stupid war has cost to date.  

When Bush took office you could buy one euro for $0.90.  After seven years, it now costs you a $1.50 to buy one euro.  This is all the result of the huge amounts of debt that we've flooded the world markets with.  We are a now a massive creditor nation, and if Asia and the Middle East stop taking our IOU's we are in deep shit.  The same thing happened to Great Britain after WW I and II.  

This Bush administration will go down as the WORST presidency ever.  It's just sad.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 12:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well
there are a few more things going on with the dollar and the euro and other currencies than just the debt. is it a large component (purposefully using a somewhat vague adjective)? sure. but it certainly isn't "all the result" of the debt.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yes, I agree that's a simplistic analysis
A lot of the dollar value is driven by trade deficits, but there's strong corelations between that and the federal deficits.
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i fold those in together
i thought you were, as well. there are other things going on, too.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ah yes
"the argument is that rich man using his tax cut to purchase the BMW is helping the economy and providing employment and so on to people in the lower quartiles, which in turn increases tax revenues..."

This is the infamous "Laffer Curve", a suspect economic theory made famous during the Reagan Administration when it was used to justify another massive tax cut.   The first president Bush eloquently referred to this as "Voodoo Economics."  Apparently his son sacrifices chickens.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

or you can call it
the infamous john f. kennedy supply side tax cuts.

there is little to no doubt that this theory works when tax rates are at a "punitive" level like they were when kennedy made the cuts (we're talking tax rates that are double what they are now). the trickier question is whether it still works when the rates are at the levels they are at now/were at when bush made his cuts.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

by the way
i suppose these were really LBJ tax cuts - but i wouldn't want ted kennedy getting pissy at me, like he did hillary, for not giving JFK his propers.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 1:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

George Santanyana
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Yes, it was LBJ - another one who pushed through big tax cuts (always popular and a sure fire way to win a re-election) while simultaneously conducting an expensive war.  This eventually completed fucked up the U.S. economy, leading to the stagflation of the '70s and Jimmy Carter's "our long national malaise".

But, we get the government we deserve.  Everyone bitches that their taxes are too high, and the great unwashed were thrilled to shit to have a few extra hundred in their pocket and were eternally grateful to the President who spoke directly with The Lord.  

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 1:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
the '64 tax cuts and vietnam spending led to what happened in the 70s? hmmm. i think you may be missing a few things like, say, the expanded government spending called "the great society." that couldn't have had an effect, could it? no way. or the oil embargo. nope, it must have been doing something completely absurd like reducing the highest tax rate from 90% to 70%. what a fucking asshole that LBJ was. there's just no possible way that doing something like that actually could increase revenues and, thus, have very little to do with any later fiscal problems.

you sure do like to draw direct lines between things, don't ya pete. the economy is a touch more complex than that.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes,yes,yes - simplistic again
But you have the '64 tax cuts to cut the revenue side, and simultaneously you have the Great Society spending and the Vietnam War spending to hugely ratchet up the expense side of the ledger.  If this isn't a recipe for fiscal disaster I don't know what is.

The result was the highest period of inflation in U.S. history, an intractable problem through the entire decade of the '70s (with the petroleum crisis throwing gas the fire, sorry couldn't resist).  It wasn't until Paul Volcker took the drastic step of curtailing the money supply and raising interest rates up to 20% that the problem was solved.  I'd say it was all related, and it all started with fiscal malfeasance on the part of the federal government.

DJ, I love snow days.


"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 1:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it's obvious
that you're one of those who doesn't believe "supply side" tax cuts ever work, even if you're cutting rates from 90%(!) of income. the evidence from the 1960s suggesting that it does work is far more concrete and far less controversial than the bush cuts or even the reagan cuts. quite frankly, i think it's ridiculous to assert that the JFK/LBJ rate cuts had anything to do with the 1970s, let alone caused this phantom loss of revenue that you claim occurred. tax cuts are not always a zero sum game. the 1960s cuts either paid for themselves or, far more likely, more than paid for themselves. if anything, the cuts allowed LBJ to have more actual money and less deficits to pay for vietnam and great society programs.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Macroeconomics
Back in the '60s the US Tax Code was very progressive, meaning that the more you earned the higher your tax rate.  Which wasn't that big of an issue until inflation caused "bracket creep", where your real wages weren't increasing but you were pushed into higher tax brackets because your wages were getting bumped up in lockstep.  This resulted in a windfall for the federal gov't, and some of this windfall was used to fund Great Society iniatives and the 1964 tax cut.  But then LBJ ramped up the war on top of this.  Not good.

It's nothing magical, it's the same as household finances.  If your income goes down, and you simultaneously wildly increase your spending your only option is to live on credit.  If your credit is good you may be able to continuing living large and impressing the neighbors for a few years, but unless you take steps to address the income/expense imbalance the shit will eventually hit the fan big time.  Especially if someone abrubtly decides to stop extending you credit.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 2:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

what's magical
is your belief, contrary to evidence, that the government's "income" went down due to tax cuts. it didn't. they got more income. and spent more than that increase. that's the problem. not the tax cuts. if anything, the tax cuts served to increase the government's income.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 2:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Methinks an economic argument
is akin to a political one - generally unwinnable if both sides are not of an open mind to new interpretations of data.

But I like your logic - and the fact that you do like to debate with facts in hand.

Baseball, anyone?

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

well
i think economic arguments are "winnable" on the fringes. and by that i mean, i think, as i've stated, that supply side tax cuts work - notably when reducing the very high rates they were at during the 60s. there seems to be a great deal of evidence to put that argument over the top. what's not so winnable is whether the bush tax cuts work(ed) because the rates are already at comparatively low levels. and i'm not sure that's even the right argument. does it really matter whether they "worked" - or does it matter that, instead of simply getting along with less, the government decided to basically keep on spending what it was spending prior to the cuts and, perhaps most importantly, spending more. that, i think, is where the real economic consequences lie - not with cutting taxes. democrats especially like to use the argument - and it's an effective one and not without some persuasive effect - that certain people don't "need" tax cuts. well, that's probably got a big nugget of truth to it. but i think the better question is whether the government actually "needs" all that money. simply because they have been getting it from people doesn't mean they should be getting it.

by larry on Feb 1, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

To bring it full circle
Paul Volcker today announced that he endorses Obama, that's pretty big.  He's still got major street cred, and typically stays out of politics.  But these are serious times that call for serious solutions.  I will now say no more on the topic:
Volcker: I Endorse Obama

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker is the latest big-name endorsement for Democratic Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois, lending his gravitas in the financial world to a presidential candidate whose biggest hurdle is to convince voters he is experienced enough to be president.

"After 30 years in government, serving under five Presidents of both parties and chairing two non-partisan commissions on the Public Service, I have been reluctant to engage in political campaigns. The time has come to overcome that reluctance," Mr. Volcker said in a statement today. "However, it is not the current turmoil in markets or the economic uncertainties that have impelled my decision. Rather, it is the breadth and depth of challenges that face our nation at home and abroad. Those challenges demand a new leadership and a fresh approach."

He concluded: "It is only Barack Obama, in his person, in his ideas, in his ability to understand and to articulate both our needs and our hopes that provide the potential for strong and fresh leadership. That leadership must begin here in America but it can also restore needed confidence in our vision, our strength, and our purposes right around the world."


"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 1, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.
Wow.

Triple wow.  That has rocked my little world.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 3:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wait - he was appointed by Carter?
Never mind - not such a surprise, then.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought that was made famous
by Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Feb 1, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Good call, Cheat
One of my favorite movies is Ferris Bueller's Day Off, which features economics guru and Nixon speechwriter Ben Stein. It happened to on Cinemax this morning.

"You will all remember the roll-call scene were Ben Stein is going down the roll name by name looking for Ferris Bueller... later in that scene, Ben Stein is teaching about the Laffer Curve and has a line like "what was described by Vice Presidential Candidate George HW Bush as "something" economics. Anyone.. Anyone? "something"-doo economics."

Best part about that scene is that it wasn't scripted.

Ben Stein doing economic ad-libbing!"

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Recent data, kid:
From today's Barron's, St. Pete:  

Two Americas, or One?
A new study of income in America shows it's still a land of opportunity
By J.T. YOUNG

THERE'S NEWS FROM THE FRONT IN THE CLASS WAR. The Department of Treasury recently released an important study on economic mobility and income growth that refutes a great deal of conventional wisdom about America being two unequal countries.

The study shows that there's been a great and continuing degree of income mobility and income growth over the last two decades. By undercutting the case for progressive taxation and interventionist spending, it argues strongly for the free-market policies needed to sustain America's economic vibrancy.

The Treasury study examined the cash-income changes reported on almost 100,000 income tax returns covering people aged 25 to 64 who filed for tax years 1996 and 2005. The study excluded those just entering or exiting the workforce, when income would dramatically increase or decrease, and adjusted for inflation, so that it reflected only real income changes.

The study is available on the Treasury Department's Website (http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/incomemobilitystudyfinal.pdf), but here are some highlights:

Almost 58% of those in the lowest income quintile (the lowest 20% of returns) in 1996 were in a higher quintile by 2005. Almost half of them had moved up two or more quintiles, and 5% had moved into the top quintile.

The middle quintile also did well. One-third stayed there, and 42% moved up, almost 13% to the top quintile. Just 7% moved to the bottom.

The top quintile from 1995 saw almost one-third of its members drop to a lower income group. (And 58% of those in the top one percent had fallen to a lower income quintile in 2005.)

Overall, 56% of the studied returns changed income quintiles in 10 years.

Absolute and Relative Gains

Households didn't just move relative to each other. Incomes increased 24% overall and increased across the income spectrum -- except at the very top end. The increases were most dramatic in the lowest quintile. Their median real income increased by 90%, almost doubling in ten years. In the top quintile, median real income increased by 10% and decreased by almost 26% for the top one percent.

We might ask how this most recent period compared with the previous 10-year period:

"The basic finding of this analysis is that relative income mobility is approximately the same..."

What did not stay the same was median real-income increases between the two periods. Every group's median income increased more than in the previous decade -- going up 30.2% from 1996-2005 versus a gain of 11.1% from 1987-1996.

As welcome as the income statistics are, they actually understate the improvements in the lower income ranges. This is because the study doesn't include tax-exempt income and the refundable earned-income tax credit, which are aimed at lower-income earners.

Even without these, the U.S. has been and continues to be very income-mobile and has experienced better income growth across the income spectrum over the last decade.

Economic Prescriptions

Important conclusions for the U.S. economy arise from the Treasury study.

There is no need for a redistributive tax system. Income redistribution is already being accomplished -- not by government, but by earners' own mobility.

America is not a nation in stasis. Individuals are not permanently placed on the income ladder as a matter of luck, justifying high taxes on the luckiest. The movement of individuals between income classes is not the exception but the rule.

Higher taxes discourage the natural and necessary movement of individuals on the income ladder. Earnings naturally rise, peak, and decline over the course of an individual's lifetime, following the worker's productivity. Attempts to manipulate these natural changes misallocate resources.

Income inevitably follows productivity. There are no jobs that command high wages; there are jobs that require high productivity, from which high wages follow.

Society benefits most when people maximize their productivity, which they will do if the economic system encourages them to do so. Societies with manipulative economies, ignoring productivity, press individuals to maximize nonproductive opportunities-seeking additional leisure, early retirement, delayed workforce entry, and tax-favored forms of remuneration.

Today, the top 50% of income earners pay all the total federal income-tax burden, and pay some more besides to offset the cost of refundable tax credits for low-income people. We have been conditioned to be comfortable with this because we accept the argument that the more stratified and ossified the wealth, the more justified the burden of progressive taxation.

There is thus a loudly articulated sentiment for our most productive people to "give back" to society. But the Treasury study shows that what they received from society was opportunity, despite the best efforts of those seeking a redistributive tax system. The individual pays back society by taking advantage of opportunity.

America remains a land of opportunity. Treasury's recent study indicates great economic mobility and growing income across all income groups.

There are indeed two Americas, but not the two we often hear about. One America is the land of opportunity, the other is a land of unequal taxation. Fortunately, the first is still stronger than the second.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 2, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At least one good thing has come
of this discussion, you're THINKING about this election instead of just spouting nonsense off the top of your head and voting for a guy because his wife has big tits.  This is the most important presidential election in a long time, at a very critical juncture in time.  If the next presidents fucks things up some more it's over.   It would be nice if an informed electorate went to the polls for a change.

You obviously read the Journal, I suggest you pick up a Sunday NY Times every week to get some input from the other end of the spectrum.  Then make your own decisions instead of just lapping up the demagoguery of one party.  Uncritical thinking on the part of the electorate is what's gotten us into this current mess.  It continues to escape me how you get a blue-collar guy scraping by in Ohio voting Republican by the simple trick of arousing his homophobia and saying you're the party of Jesus.  But after seeing OSU fans up close and personal, maybe it's not so mysterious.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 3, 2008 6:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Already read the NYT on Sundays
Good suggestion for others.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 3, 2008 8:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The WSJ is actually a really good paper
I will agree that you need to steer clear of the OP/ED section, but I feel that way with every paper. When you see Rush Limbaugh published in a paper, IMO, it tends to lessen said paper's credibility.

What I've found interesting with regards to some of the political stories and columns regarding the Iraq war is that the stories on the front page contradict the analysis given in the middle pages of the front section. If you take the front page stories with a grain of salt, avoid the OP/ED section, and read the stories in the middle pages of the first section, you get well written stories that give a pretty good idea of what's going on in the nation and world.

I agree that getting news from multiple sources is the best way to cut through the crap, but find it odd that no one mentions the BBC. I would argue that the outside perspective is better than the stories we get that are, in part, chosen due to political pressure and pressure from advertisers.

Just my perspective.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 3, 2008 2:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're coming off
as knee-jerk, Pete.  I know I'm just a young whippersnapper, but having read the thread I'd say WU managed a far better attitude and approach and is probably closer to right as a result.  And I think larry agrees (as do others) which makes me think all the more than WU has been the better.  Remember: I say this as a guy who's renting a house with nothing but  RC kids.  I think you need to take a step back and get a little meta-reflection on this partisan attitude.
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Feb 3, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Whaaaaaaaaaat!?!?!?
I'm three times decorated in two world wars! I was killing people while you were still swimming around in your father's balls! You little scumbag! I worked five years in a slaughterhouse, and ten years as a prison guard in Attica!
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 3, 2008 8:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

don't you have some unbuttered toast
to be eating?  or some other disgusting old person thing to do.  like wear briefs!  or yearn for a whiter America?
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Feb 4, 2008 10:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, say it ain't so Joe
You're not one of the Young Republicans are you?  I thought they screened for that at admissions.
"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 5, 2008 7:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

pshaw, course not
they're creepy.  i live with RCers by choice.  you think they'd tolerate that?
His little smile pissed me off.

by colintj on Feb 5, 2008 3:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's a perfect example of critical thinking
Look closely at the article you're quoting from Barron's.  The study covers the years from 1996 (attn, 1996) to 2005.  Then they argue that a progressive tax system is not needed.

You have two completely different tax systems in place, pre-Bush 2001 tax cuts and after.  This study conveniently overlaps the both of them.  You can slice numbers however you want to make an argument, pay attention to who is making the argument (Barron's in this case, very right) and then take it with a big grain of salt.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 3, 2008 7:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The fact that 2 differing systems
are studied makes it a more representative study, does it not?  If the numbers work when tested in multiple systems does that not lend more credence to the postulation?

I hear ya, Pete.  Since old jokes about Republicans are being told, here's one about both:

If you are 20 years old and not a Democrat, you have no heart.

If you are 50 years old and are not a Republican, you have no brains.

(PS I'm 50.  You're not.  We're where we need to be, according to the joke.)

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 3, 2008 8:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, it's Barron's
1996 to 2001 was the most robust chunk of the greatest expansion of the economy in the 20th.  Gee, do you think some people might have been kicked up into higher income quintiles during this expansion?  They're not contrasting anything, quite the opposite they're deliberately muddying the waters by blending two distinct economic and tax eras by pushing the years of their analysis to include 2001-05.  If you want to peek behind the curtain, track down their source and then break down their numbers for 96-01, and then separately for 01-05.  I will make a hefty wager that you come to two entirely different conclusions.

This is Barron's you're reading.  Who are they writing for, what's their audience?  This article is totally preaching to the choir, they're not trying to change anyone's thinking.  They want you to remain warm and comfortably numb, smug in your righteous belief that Republican policies are fair and egalitarian.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 3, 2008 8:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bravo ChicagoPete
Though I'm not necessarily in agreement with every thing you say, you've made a few great points recently with regards to critical thinking and analyzing the targeted audience of the articles. I don't find many people that have expressed these thoughts and I've often felt as though I've been talking to a wall when I've said such things in the past.

I also agree with your view of an ill-informed electorate. Candidates speak in catch phrases and distortions, until people start to really think about who's pulling the strings they aren't going to end the viscous cycle of deception and actually get good candidates that represent them. Actually, I'm not sure that is even possible given that politicians, as far as I can tell, will say anything to get into power.

To illustrate this point, in CA television commercials, Hillary Clinton is championing herself as the representative of the people and not special interests. Contrast this with recent fund raising figures, according to the SJ Mercury News and Investors Business Daily, that show Obama has recently been raising more more money because of donations from small donors (ie individuals). The majority of Hillary's donors have been large money donors (ie corporations and other special interest groups). My point being that Hillary is deceptively advertising herself. Not a big surprise given that this is a political dogfight. I would give another example of deception by Obama just to be fair, but my purpose is not to advocate for either candidate, only to illustrate why people need to do a little research / thinking when bombarded by this much advertising.

Another great example comes from the gaming agreement propositions in CA, but since few of us live here, I will spare the majority.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 3, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i don't know about you, rhythm
but i'm voting a big, fat, NO on the injun props. no independent auditor and the exemption from environmental laws are what did it for me.

the fact that the governator is crying poor right at this time gives it a nice fishy smell, to boot.

by thatshortkid on Feb 3, 2008 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Still trying to figure that one out
I'm not a fan of the Vegas Casinos and horse tracks sponsoring blatantly false ads against those propositions, and given the fact that we stole the land our country occupies from the American Indians makes me inclined to support measures for them to better the situation we have left them in.

On the flip side, the potential for rampant environmental destruction in an ecosystem as fragile as the desert in addition to sticking it to all those people that put the Governator in office because Gray Davis isn't an exciting personality (or, if you believe their schtick, cause he couldn't balance the budget in time) makes voting the measures down appealing as well.

I actually think that the Governator has done pretty well over all, so I have nothing personal against him. I suppose I should make a decision soon though since tuesday is coming fast.

That's a piece of crap. We stopped selling that six months ago. Nice gesture, though. - Beanie

by rhythm on Feb 3, 2008 9:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i obviously don't disagree
with being aware of the source or wondering about sample sizes and ranges (i question those all the time with baseball numbers). but what do you think would be a better range? you seem to be wanting a smaller sample size - which runs counterintuitive to the generally accepted belief that larger ones are better.

and you may wish to actually click on the link and read the study. you can, of course, say that the authors of the study may have a bias, as well (this is a republican admin.). but going to the source is still better than reading it via a filter. you'll note that one of their findings was that income mobility was unchanged from the prior decade. so now we're looking at a period of 1987-2005 where income mobility has not increased or decreased.

you can't just throw out periods of economic expansion, just like you can't throw out periods of recession. that makes no sense. and using smaller periods makes no sense either because it tells you less, not more.

by larry on Feb 3, 2008 2:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

1996-2001 was the most
robust?  Where were you in 2000-2001?  It was sure painful for a lot of folks,bro.  Can we agree upon the 1993-1999 time frame?  If so, who was in office then, and why was it successful?

A.  A Republican Congress who actually curtailed spending.

B.  A moderate Democratic President who believed in free trade and (practically) abolished welfare.

Balance is the key to life, my man.  These resentments you seem to spew will only cause you grief in the long run - use that passion in a positive sense, not just to rail against "the Establishement".  The informed, cogent points you make can be obscured by your disdain for an opposing opinion.  (Read the article above about The Daily Kos - I'd try and follow a different path in presenting opposing ideas.)

PS Purdue is in 1st Place in Big Ten basketball!  Eat it!

;)

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 3, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

agree
i think the recipe for restrained spending is a republican congress and a democratic president (vice versa hasn't seemed to have worked so far but i'll give it some more time).

by larry on Feb 3, 2008 3:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Slightly on topic
The US tax system, overall, is not especially progressive. Here's a slightly old article about how progressive the system is. I don't believe state and sales taxes are included, which further dampen the progressivity.  

by hitlesswonder on Feb 3, 2008 11:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

My wife would laugh
if she saw me here playing advocate for the Democrats, but since it's Super Tuesday here's another rant:

You want to solve Social Security and Medicare funding?  Stop cutting off the FICA and Medicare contribution at the ~$80,000 and ~$100,000 cap.  Or cap it between $100-250k and then have it kick back in over $250,000.  This is a pay-as-you-go system anyway, so might as well end the pretense that you're funding something like a defined contribution plan.  As it is, current funding is completely regressive.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Feb 5, 2008 7:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Should've quoted the whole piece -
my bad.
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 1:18 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

The BEST description of Republicans
I've ever seen.  Apologies to WU in advance:

If the Goverment is a car setting out to give every one a ride to work, then for 40 years the Republicans have been puncturing the tires, pouring sand in the gas tank, stealing the distributer cap, and, whenever they can get their hands on the wheel, driving it straight into the nearest ditch and then, pointing to the wreckage as the tow truck backs up to it, saying, See, this proves that people were meant to walk.

And they do this so that they don't have to chip in on gas.

Courtesy of the author:
http://lancemannion.typepad.com/lance_mannion/2008/02/government-as-a.html?cid=99615236#comment-9961 5236

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Feb 1, 2008 3:13 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

No apology necessary -
I consider myself an independent.  
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 1, 2008 3:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Monday is super duper too!
Just scored a late ticket from Ticketmaster to tonight's Dead Heads for Obama show...first time in 4 years that Bob Weir, Phil Lesh, and Mickey Hart are going to play together. All proceeds, of course, to the Obama campaign (some way or another).  
"Politicians are like diapers. They both need changing regularly and for the same reason."

by Toonderstrook on Feb 4, 2008 7:28 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

awesome, enjoy the show!
would the campaign donation area be 'shakedown street', then?

by thatshortkid on Feb 4, 2008 7:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing says "change"
like a Dead concert.  Dude.

Have a good time, and remember, they drug test federal employees, Toonder.  And you can't use the old "hey, it was a contact high" excuse.

Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 4, 2008 8:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I find it amusing
that the gal whose husband (and former President) who once got a knobber from an intern in the Oval Office, has a darn good chance of becoming Prez and occupying that same office her own darn self.

Did I say amusing? Perhaps "disturbing" is more appropriate.

"Each one of my (off-season acquisition)targets has that edge to them, that go-getter attitude. We need it. We will embrace it." - Kenny Williams (11/28/07)

by tailgater on Feb 5, 2008 9:52 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Turnabout is fair play...
Any volunteers?  (Shudder.)
Jeff Cox: I'm going to call you "FN".

by winningugly on Feb 6, 2008 5:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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