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Optimal Outfield Alignment

Larry pointed out a poll with some fairly dubious results over at ChicagoSports.com, but I thought the topic was a good one.

Given the players currently on the White Sox roster (and Alexei Ramirez), what would your optimal outfield alignment be?

  • Who would play LF?
  • RF?
  • CF?
  • Would you platoon players?
  • Who is your 4th outfielder?
  • 5th?
  • And since we know JD isn't moving from RF, what's the best alignment with him in RF?
  • I'm not going to attatch a poll, because there are far more than 10 options, and moving Jermaine Dye from RF would be central to my plan.

    SouthSideSox is a community driven site. As such, users are able to express their thoughts and opinions in a FanPost, such as this one, which represents the views of this particular fan, but not necessarily the entire community or SouthSideSox editors.

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    Accidently wrote this as a diary.
    I'll respond with my own alignment later.
    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 3:34 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    With the guys currently on the roster...
    and knowing that Dye will be in right field, I would have it be Swisher/Anderson/Dye, with Owens and Quentin on the bench.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 3:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Well
    It would have to be:
     LF - Dye, CF - Swisher, RF - Quentin

    I would think. If Dye has to remain in RF, flip him and Quentin.  

    by hitlesswonder on Jan 7, 2008 3:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    hmmm
    LF: dye
    CF: swisher
    RF: quentin
    platoon: i wouldn't allow thome to face lefties so DH duties would allow dye to be moved from the outfield. put fields out there on such days. considering the splits for quentin (in a small sample) look pretty bad, i may have to say a platoon with quentin instead and then get creative. the crede/fields situation sort of fucks things up overall
    4th: fields (sort of)
    5th: BA
    JD, the concrete shoes on our feet, in right alignment: quentin, swisher, dye

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 3:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Sort of
    LF dye
    CF swisher
    RF Quentin
    platoon - Dye is DH against lefties with Ramirez & Owens taking over CF and Swisher moves to LF.
    4th Owens
    5th Ramirez

    IF Owens or Ramirez struggle in spring training then you keep BA up as the 4th outfielder.

    by BobbySouthSide on Jan 7, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    I sure do like
    the idea of Dye as DH against lefties (or at least certain tough lefties).

    by palehose67 on Jan 7, 2008 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    gotta do something with him
    unlike you, i read the question posed and answered it within the specified parameters. heightens the level of difficulty.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Ah.
    You're trying to figure out what to do with Crede and Fields on your 25-man roster.

    I imagine that, if both Crede and Fields are somehow  on the 40-man come Opening Day, Fields will be in the minors.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 5:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    i imagine you're correct
    but i wouldn't do that.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 5:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Okay.
    But if forced to choose between Fields rotting on the bench and Fields playing every day in AAA, I'd put Fields in AAA.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Crede will be traded to some team...
    i.e. Phillies, Brewers, Angels, etc. if he shows he's healthy in Spring Training, even if Kenny can't get much of a return for him.  Basically, I think Kenny will sell very low on Crede just to move him and make room for Fields at 3B.  Fields is not going back to AAA.

    by SSH2005 on Jan 7, 2008 6:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Same for Quentin
    ...which is what makes this task difficult.  There are things I would do if I just wanted to win, like sit Fields against guys with big fastballs for example, but I want the pair of them to develop.  The only way that happens is if they play every day.   So I guess that means I'm for the boring lineup with few daily changes.
    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 7, 2008 6:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    i thought i was the head man in charge
    again, that's not how i would do it.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 6:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    ehhh?
    the question was "Given the players currently on the White Sox roster (and Alexei Ramirez), what would your optimal outfield alignment be?"

    that I answered

    I see I neglected to answer the sub-question
    so, here it goes

    # Who would play LF? JD
    # RF? Quentin
    # CF? BA (Cameron if acquired)
    # Would you platoon players? no
    # Who is your 4th outfielder? alexei
    # 5th? owens
    # And since we know JD isn't moving from RF, what's the best alignment with him in RF?

    Flip my LF and RF answers

    -

    is that more satisfactory sir?

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 5:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Here goes
    • LF:  Dye
    • RF:  Quentin
    • CF:  Swisher
    • Any platoons?  Nope.
    • Fourth outfielder?  Since you are asking for our perspective, this question depends on whether I see Alexei Ramirez as anything more (in the near future) than a bench player.  Right now I'd say he looks like a 'spark off the bench' player, so he's my fourth outfielder.
    • Fifth outfielder?  Owens, I suppose, in the sense that if I needed another guy off the bench I'd go with Owens.  If, say, Dye went down for an extended period of time, however, I'd probably rather have Anderson up here to play CF while moving Swisher to LF.
    • The best alignment with Dye in RF should probably involve a trade or a free agent signing for a guy who we know can go get the ball in CF -- say Cameron or Figgins.  But since you asked for guys currently on the team, I suppose it's Swisher in CF and Quentin in LF, although I don't think there'd be a huge difference if you flipped Swisher and Quentin.

    by CWSKeith on Jan 7, 2008 3:46 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    I THINK
    I know why everyone assumes it is easier to play left rather than right field, or, put differently, why it's so important to have a competent rf. However, is it POSSIBLE that shifting Dye and the adjustments it would warrant might not make our outfield worse, presuming Dye has to be in the outfield more games than not. I'm not completely sold on moving him yet, I don't think.

    by dantesox on Jan 7, 2008 3:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    No, no.
    I could care less about his ego or whatever....I mean practically as in what would physically be best in the outfield.

    by dantesox on Jan 7, 2008 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Plus,
    for you dreamers with the notion that Figgins is such a hot shot in cf, think again. He's no better than Swisher.

    by dantesox on Jan 7, 2008 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    that
    i can tell you is not true.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 4:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Chone
    is better than Swisher in CF.  That's not debatable.

    Range Factor for Chone: 2.73
    Swisher: 2.66

    Zone Rating for Chone: .867
    Swisher:  .839

    For a comparison:

    League Leader (Coco Crisp):  3.07 RF
    League Leader (Sizemore): .916

    Chone has a much larger sample size.  1918 innings compared to 484 for Swisher.  So, Swish's stats could still sway either way.

    by BoKnows on Jan 7, 2008 4:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Physically
    Faster runner, better arm in RF, which is Quentin IMO.

    by BoKnows on Jan 7, 2008 4:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    i wasn't talking about ego either
    you flip quentin and dye. simple. and i don't see how that does anything other than improve outfield defense - at the very least you'll see less triples.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 4:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Some many choices....
    OF w/ current lineup (assuming Dye is stuck in RF):

    RF - Dye, CF - Swisher, LF - Quentin
    --No platoons--
    4th OF - Ramirez
    5th OF - BA.  He could be used as a late inning sub for any of those three guys.  

    Ideal w/ current:

    LF-Dye, CF-Swisher, RF-Quentin

    Ideal w/ trade or signing:

    LF - Dye, CF - Figgins, RF - Q
    --no platoons--
    Swisher moves to 1B

    by BoKnows on Jan 7, 2008 3:56 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Ozuna
    Anyone here how his rehab is progressing?  Is he playing winter ball?

    by BobbySouthSide on Jan 7, 2008 3:59 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    see the minors diary
    updated daily with the stats and links to the leagues and past months.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    re
    ozuna's last game was on december 16

    participation of sox players is pretty limited nowdays

    bourgeois' last game was on december 16 too

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    speaking of winter ball MIAs
    bartolo colon has missed his last 2 starts and hasn't hit 90mph yet...

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 6:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    After reading that
    I checked the Gameday readings from his last outing (9/12?) against the White Sox. He was sitting at about 93 according to gameday, which tended to be a bit fast. For instance, in this game his counterpart was Jose Contreras who seemed to throw with about the same velocity, maybe one MPH slower.

    According to gameday, both touched 95+ a few of times during the game.

    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 6:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Answering my own question
    LF: Dye (obviously)
    CF: Quentin/Owens/Anderson
    RF: Swisher

    There wouldn't be a strict platoon in the OF, but I think I would try to limit Thome's exposure to lefties, and have him as a dangerous PH late against opposing "closers." To accomplish this, Dye would DH against LHP or Konerko would DH with Swisher at 1B and the rest of the backups shifting accordingly. The backups still don't project to hit as well as Thome against LHP, so I think I'd probably limit this approach to games in which my lower-strikeout pitchers are on the mound.

    I see Quentin and Swisher as pretty much the same player defensively in CF, but I'm giving a nod to Quentin because he projects to play less. I know Anderson can pick it in CF and Owens showed above average range.

    Right now, Anderson would be my 5th outfielder/defensive replacement. I'd allow him the opportunity to earn more playing time, but pretty much guarantee him a spot on the bench given our current projected defense.

    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 4:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    In the real world...
    I know that the Sox will only carry four bench players, and the bench will be Hall/Uribe/Ozuna/Owens, but I would carry Anderson as well.

    Heck, I'd dump Ozuna and get a real infielder.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    I
    guess I'm just stupid, but I'm not sure it's so obvious you stick Dye in left and everything is presumably better than if left in right, although I'll take most of your word on it.
     Question: are all of you taking into consideration that leftfielders probably have more chances than rf'ers? that the adjustment to lf entails a whole new set of angles that someone like Dye hasn't seen before? that routes are now different because of the new angles?

    by dantesox on Jan 7, 2008 4:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Total chances
    Let's see....
    Total Chances (MLB Average)
    LF RF
    2007 335 349
    2006 327 351
    2005 328 345
    2004 318 352
    2003 332 343
    2002 331 341
    2001 330 343

    Nope....

    JD was a triples fairy in RF. Since far fewer triples occur in LF, JD goes there, cutting down on extra base hits. And as an added bonus his plus arm in LF will help with the increased number of balls finding their way through the SS-3B hole (thanks Josh), giving us a fighting chance at gunning down more than one runner at the plate this season.

    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 4:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Wow.
    Thanks for the info. Would have guessed the opposite.

    by dantesox on Jan 7, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Total chances isn't a good measure
    since it's just Errors plus Put Outs plus Assists...  

    LF and RF see (approximately) the same number of balls, but RFers turn (slightly) more of them into outs...

    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 4:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    prefer not to have swisher in cf
    LF: Swisher
    CF: Andersen
    RF: Dye

    bench: owens and Q let the Cuban spend some time in the minors...Before the Sox picked up Richar I always wonders if Pablo could play 2B full time or if he'd wear out.

    by spadog on Jan 7, 2008 4:09 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    agree about the Swish in CF
    but I'd flip Dye to LF.
    I like BA in center
    It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

    by Chiburb on Jan 7, 2008 5:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    LF - Dye, CF - Swisher, RF - Quentin.

    No Platoon
    4th outfielder - Owens
    5th - Alexei Ramirez
    If Dye in RF, CF - Swisher, LF - Quentin
    "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

    by ballyb on Jan 7, 2008 4:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    swisher's arm kinda stinks
    sticking with JD in right seems like a good idea for now.

    http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/best-outfield-arms-of-2007/

    Dubee and Danks and pray for Taco Bell

    by hscs on Jan 7, 2008 4:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    I don't know where to put this
    since I've been sort of making this point here and there, but from that THT article comes this quote:

    "For all positions except second base, the mean OPS+ (the average performance) is higher than the median OPS+ (the performance of the average)"

    I'm pretty sure this means that it's difficult to gain a distinct advantage over other teams at second base and that second basemen are fungible and relatively easy to find.  Which is exactly what I was saying when I questioned the value of trading for Kendrick.

    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 7, 2008 4:29 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    No
    what it means is that for whatever reason a number of horrible hitting 2B got a lot of PAs, decreasing the average OPS+ while not particularly affecting the median. Biggio, Giles and Durham are examples.

    That is completely unrelated to the difficulty of finding a league average 2B. And it is certainly unrelated to the value of a cheap, 23 y.o. 2B that dominated the minors and posted a 109 OPS+ in his first full season.

    by bhoov on Jan 7, 2008 10:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    I already called into question
    the validity of the domination.  His line drive rate was nothing special and his home parks were all substantially pro-hitter.  For a hitter who's approach is average dominated, we should at least investigate how he's doing that.
    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 7, 2008 11:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Even with
    hitter friendly environments a 2B who posts a .964 career minor league OPS at age appropriate levels over 1500 ABs is exceptional.

    LD%: we already discussed. Although the only milb LD% I saw was at first inning, and it was fine. Are you getting milb LD% from somewhere else? Personally, I'll take his MLB and milb results over his LD%. There are 2 ball in play systems out there. I'll assume that's why First Inning has him with a perfectly fine LD%.

    Given the discrepancy, I agree it should be investigated thoroughly. I think KW should assign a scout to look at all 109 of Kendrick's hits and decide what he thinks prior to trading for him.

    Even if Kendrick doesn't improve and stays a 109 OPS+ 2B, a 23 y.o., cheap 2b with a 109 OPS+, average fielding and good baserunning is much more valuable than a 117 OPS+, below average fielding, slow, 32 y.o. 1B. Even though Paulie put up a 116 OPS+, I actually expect him to do better than that this year. However, over the next 5 years (the time that Kendrick is controlled), he'll probably come in right around that number. And the kicker is Konerko makes 12 million a year. Kendrick makes 330K and will probably make 12 million TOTAL over the next 5 years.

    So I'm not saying Kendrick is perfect, just that he's a lot more valuable than Konerko. And I like Konerko more than most.

    by bhoov on Jan 8, 2008 11:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Just not enough to want to see him
    in a reality show, right?  (0% in a poll taken late last year.)

    I would be crestfallen if Paulie was traded, since I (perhaps mistakenly) believe his influence/maturity would be difficult to replace.

    "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

    by winningugly on Jan 8, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Don't forget.
    We need Paul to huddle with Williams at the All Star Break to decide if the existing lineup can "win it all."
    "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

    by ballyb on Jan 8, 2008 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Yeah, 'cause...
    he was spot-on in 2007, wasn't he?

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 11:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    cmon
    you cant forget that jim thome was involved in that great decision of whether this team could win it all in 2007!
    12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

    by The Deacon on Jan 8, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    I don't think I'd quibble with
    the monetary valuation, but he doesn't excite me.  

    Also: I have his LD% from minorleaguesplits.com.  The thing about high average hitters is that their LD% shouldn't be "fine" it should be great.  That's what maintains the high average (unless you're fast, which Kendrick is not).  Roughly speaking, your BABIP is .120 + LD% and will tend to regress toward that mark from the stuff I've seen (THT? Can't remember).  I emailed Dan Fox about it and got one reply, but I'm waiting.

    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 8, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Understand your concern
    But looking at the data, in his last sig. minor league stop he posted a 18.6 LD% as compared to the 13.2% posted in the PCL. I would call that great.

    I've noticed that in general LD% is sig. less at the minor league level as compared to MLB. You wouldn't neccesarily expect that to be the case, because even though the quality of hitter is better, so is the quality of pitcher. In any event I think the way to do it is to compare to league average.

    But I do believe, colintj that we'll have to agree to disagree on Howie. I think your position is perfectly defensible, I just don't agree with it. We'll see. Trade or no trade let's keep an eye on Howie in the future to see who is right.

    by bhoov on Jan 8, 2008 12:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    A little more?
    I was basing my conclusions from here
    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 8, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Hmmm
    interesting. I'm surprised he didn't really offer an explanation for the data. Is the difference between big league hitters and milb hitters that much greater than the difference between big league pitchers and milb pitchers?

    I got the 13% for the PCL from minorleaguesplits.com (just did the division myself). That was for the same year that a similar calculation yielded 18.6 for Kendrick.

    by bhoov on Jan 8, 2008 10:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    That sounds really low doesn't it?
    Especially for AAA.  The non-prospects are basically older, physically mature and should be able to manage a decent number of line drives.  18.8% was average in the MLB according to Dan Fox.  Now I'm not sure what to think.

     

    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 8, 2008 10:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Answers...
    LF?  Jermaine Dye
    RF?  Carlos Quentin
    CF?  Nick Swisher
    Would you platoon players?  No.
    Who is your 4th outfielder?  Brian Anderson.
    5th?  Jerry Owens
    And since we know JD isn't moving from RF, what's the best alignment with him in RF?  Carlos Quentin in LF, Nick Swisher in CF, and Jermaine Dye in RF.

    by SSH2005 on Jan 7, 2008 4:31 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    The reason I like Cameron
    for this team is because it's going to be so bad defensively.  We don't have a real CF and Fields is going to be craptacular (please let nagging injuries have something to do with his vanishing SB/crap defense), Dye is a triple waiting to happen and Richar and Konerko don't make me go "wheeeee" either.
    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 7, 2008 5:02 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    mine
    LF JD
    CF BA (if we sign Cameron he gets CF!)
    RF Quentin

    Swisher goes at 1st...

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 5:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    i take it
    PK is playing 2B in this alignment?

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    ah, the golden rule
    never answer the question that is asked of you. answer the question that you wish had been asked of you.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 5:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    what rule did I break now?
    you asked me if PK plays 2B and I answered no [he doesn't play 2B], he's traded

    did I screw up again?

    :p

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 5:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    cheat's question
    said "given the players currently on the roster...." you just made the task a piece of cake by dispensing with the primary problem the players currently on the roster pose.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 5:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    you are correct
    the situation it's a screwed up

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    now that I thought it more
    since cheat said "given the players currently on the roster...." can't I do whatever I want with those players?

    if so, I choose to trade PK!

    by The Wizard on Jan 7, 2008 5:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    not sure that's what cheat meant
    but, again, i follow the golden rule in my life so go right ahead. it makes it quite easy, though, considering i took the point of his post to be to highlight the roster problem (maybe not necessarily a bad problem) the sox have presently. if you solve the roster problem by wishing away a thome or a konerko or a dye, sure. but i'm not sure how plausible that is in reality.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 6:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    outfield
    LF - Quentin
    CF - Swisher
    RF - Dye

    i concede that Dye will not be moved to LF.

    4th OF - Owens (use in LF only to occasionally spell whoever the regular is)
    5th OF - Anderson

    by Larson on Jan 7, 2008 5:21 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Following the rules that Larry laid down...
    and saying that the Sox are going north with the guys currently on the roster (and Alexei Ramirez), here's my whole 25-man...

    SP - Mark Buehrle
    SP - Javier Vazquez
    SP - Jose Contreras
    SP - John Danks
    SP - Gavin Floyd

    RP - Mike MacDougal
    RP - Ehren Wasserman
    RP - Boone Logan
    RP - Scott Linebrink
    RP - Matt Thornton
    RP - Bobby Jenks

    C - AJ Pierzynski
    1B - Paul Konerko
    2B - Danny Richar
    3B - Joe Crede
    SS - Danny Richar
    LF - Jermaine Dye
    CF - Brian Anderson
    RF - Nick Swisher
    DH - Jim Thome

    C - Toby Hall
    IF - Juan Uribe
    IF/OF - Pablo Ozuna
    OF - Jerry Owens
    OF - Carlos Quentin

    I'd rather see Fields than Crede, but if I can't get rid of Crede, that's my only other option.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 5:27 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Speaking of which...
    are the Sox out of options on Aardsma?  I've got to think that they are, but I don't always get that right.  

    I think they have to make decisions on both MacDougall and Aardsma this spring.  Wassermann might be the odd man out if the Sox want to keep both.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Masset and Aardsma
    are out of options.
    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 5:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Thanks.
    Masset can go as far as I'm concerned, but if he's out of options, I suppose he has to be on the team by the rules outlined above.  Put him and Aardsma on instead of Wasserman and Logan, I guess.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 5:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Oh, and...
    Orlando Cabrera instead of Danny Richar at short.  Stupid mistake on my part.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 5:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    It's a bit fruitless
    to try and accurately project an entire roster now...

    The once muddled outfield situation, seems much clearer now, with more than a few in-house options. So I thought I'd pose that question.

    I don't really view Joe Crede as a member of this team even though he's on the current roster. Uribe is a bit different, as I could see him sticking around as a backup in the IF...

    And I wouldn't even want to start projecting the bullpen...

    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 5:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    There'll definitely be some turnover...
    before Opening Day.

    The more I think about it, the more I think that the Sox move Konerko.  The question is what they can get for him.

    As for the bullpen, I see three guys that will definitely be there - Jenks, Thornton, and Linebrink, with two more probables - MacDougal and Logan.  Guillen will want seven relievers, so it's probably between Wassermann, Aardsma, and Masset and whatever dark horse emerges this spring to battle it out for the last two spots.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 7, 2008 6:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    i thought konerko was gone
    this offseason. but considering what the sox have done so far, i'm not sure if there's a package out there that the sox can get which doesn't now hurt the team in the short-term, which seems to be the focus.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 6:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    The Kenny Williams paradox...
    Is it truly short-term or is it short-term and long-term?

    Recently acquired geezers:
    Orlando Cabrera
    Scott Linebrink

    Recently acquired youngin's:
    Danny Richar
    Carlos Quentin
    Alexei Ramirez (if you believe his reported age)
    Nick Swisher

    Fields will be at 3B and apparently Danks and Floyd will be in the rotation.  It almost seems like Kenny is trying to build for the short-term and long-term, by giving up strictly long-term talent.  It's a weird re-building process that Kenny is trying.

    by SSH2005 on Jan 7, 2008 8:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    he's doing his damndest
    to split the difference...what does our median age look like now?
    His little smile pissed me off.

    by colintj on Jan 7, 2008 9:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    good point..
    I'd also say that turning over your roster that way (younger and veteran/proven players) is the only way to do it in chicago. Obviously you can't completely rebuild if you want to remain competitive, without taking an obvious hit in the standings due to development unless you're atlanta.

    It's funny.

    We all want the old vets to go, thome, dye (or at least some people didnt want him to be re-signed), , konerko, aj (although Im not sure who else you would put at catcher).

    But what if you (kenny) didn't get the return you wanted and what was proposed by other GMs simply wasn't good enough for the short-term and deemed too risky for the long-term?? Obviously under the right circumstances (or xbox / dealing with an idiot/ed wade/etc cough), you try and rebuild as quickly as you can so you can become competitive again.

    Seeing as how the sox are pretty horrible recently at developing their own talent with an already thin farm system, this may be the best way for him to rebuild in 'reality'. If this fails.. cabrera walks (sox get an extra draft pick).. Lets say 2 years go by and swisher plays well, sustains his number or improves, he's still locked up cheap and would be in his prime years going forward. I'm sure they could get a good return as well.

    No way, no how: no way they go backwards in whatever fanfare they've been able to gain due to winning a ring in '05. Trading someone like Konerko obviously would hurt them now, but would help them going forward if they could effectively turn the savings into being more aggressive in the draft and paying overslot for younger talent plus the trade return.

    People saying the sox should just rebuild and hold off until 2010 to make their run: I can't say I agree with you. The royals have been rebuilding for decades. Who's to say the indians and tigers don't continue to turn over their rosters to remain competitive year after year as well? The sox just need to trade off assets and acquire prospects and then flip them in the manner in which they got swisher, garcia, vasquez, thome, et all. Unless you have a can't miss guy like loney on the dodgers or delmon young on the twins.. i'd say the odds are with what the sox are doing.

    wow, I got alot for 2 cents..

    It's all about the SOX baby! www.firestarclothing.com

    by Eternalkonflict on Jan 7, 2008 9:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    This is why I re-thought the Swisher trade...
    and see that it was a pretty good trade.

    According to Sickels, we gave up two B+ prospects (Gio and DLS) and one C+ prospect (Sweeney).  Swisher is pretty much locked up for 5 seasons (including his fifth year team option).  If Swisher comes to the Cell and produces a couple 35-40 HR, 100+ RBI seasons with an OBP nearing .400, what could Kenny get for the remaining 3-year, $26 million dollar contract of a 29 year old outfielder?  In 2010, a 3-year, $26 million dollar contract to an .850+ OPS player is going to look very desirable to many teams.  My guess is that Kenny could get back a better quality package than Gio, DLS, and Sweeney when/if the time comes.

    by SSH2005 on Jan 7, 2008 11:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Bullpen
    I think the odds are good that there is a 7 man bullpen this season. In fact, I think that's almost a lock given Ozzie's preference and the option situation.

    That leaves a 4 man bench of Hall, Ozuna,  Owens, and Uribe/AAAA SS.

    by hitlesswonder on Jan 7, 2008 8:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Great.
    Why did Kenny decide to pick up a second Danny Richar!?  Or has Orlando Cabrera changed his name as a sign of team unity?
    Out-underacheiving the other guy.

    by defensive indifference on Jan 8, 2008 1:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    i guess you haven't seen richar's range
    with that outfield, JRE is exploring the possibility of going with a four man group to shore things up.

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 1:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Well...
    Assuming Dye won't move:

    LF: Swisher
    CF: Platoon between BA and Owens (BA gets lefties and all starts by Danks and maybe Floyd)
    RF: Dye
    4th OF: BA/JO
    5th OF: None, Ozuna if that is unacceptable

    Quentin starts the season at AAA and waits for Dye, Konerko or Thome to get hurt or traded (Swisher would move to 1B, and yes, I know that those three all effectively have no trade clauses).

    Put simply, with flyball-tastic pitchers like Danks and Floyd, I value BA's defense more than Quentin's stick.  And I don't want Quentin sitting on the bench 50% of the time.

    by BridgeportJoe on Jan 7, 2008 5:38 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    ugh, this is tough
    I mean someone has to move (Crede, Dye, Konerko) otherwise there is a mess..but here we go:

    LF: Dye
    CF: Quentin
    RF: Swisher

    I have Anderson as my 4th OFer and late game defensive replacement.  Its tough putting Quentin in CF since I don't know if he has ever played that position.  I know Swisher can play center, but I'd rather have him save his energy/health in Right.

    by shaftr on Jan 7, 2008 5:58 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    fire joe morgan
    endorses the new sox outfielders.

    http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/01/best-system-ever.html

    oh, and rags rogers.

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 7:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    I firmly believe Rock ain't
    getting a fair shake because of the nose candy history.

    Give him a couple years.

    "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

    by winningugly on Jan 7, 2008 7:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Cheat, Molly didn't even make the
    "Coke All-Stars".

    http://contractbud.com/article.php?article=apc_allcoke&source=archive

    "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

    by winningugly on Jan 7, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    WU,
    somehow it doesn't surprise me that you had the "Coke All-Stars" link at your fingertips ; )
    "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

    by ballyb on Jan 7, 2008 7:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    raines
    ahaha... funny shit dude. that shit shouldnt stop raines from getting in. These hall of fame voters better fart potpourri
    It's all about the SOX baby! www.firestarclothing.com

    by Eternalkonflict on Jan 7, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    They base part of their analysis
    on DLS "doing well in Rookie ball" and linking to thebaseball cube which only shows his DSL stats from 2006.

    I think we can all agree that DLS is a lot more valuable (and a much better prospect) than just some guy who is "doing well in rookie ball."

    AIM: SouthSideCheat

    by The Cheat on Jan 7, 2008 7:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    they must have fixed that
    because the link is now up to date (though without the DSL stats, so i don't know what they were linking to).

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 7:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    I am still in shock from that Rogers article
    That might be dumbest thing I ever read in a major newspaper.
    "Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

    by Tdogg on Jan 7, 2008 7:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Sabermetrics.
    A journey of a thousand miles starts with the first step.
    "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

    by ballyb on Jan 7, 2008 7:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    easily
    I agree. I couldn't believe my eyes.. all i could look at is that goofy pic of his. Someone should stop these guys. I nearly lost my $25 lunch. he's lucky
    It's all about the SOX baby! www.firestarclothing.com

    by Eternalkonflict on Jan 7, 2008 10:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Just to be diff:
    LF:  JD
    CF:  Q/Ramirez
    RF:  Swisher(Rowand II)

    Ramirez, at age 26, from Cuba, battle-tested, Hispanic, will play this year.  He slides into home with elan.  If A-Gone and Terstado got significant AB's bank on AR getting some.

    And BA is toast. Let.  It.  Go.

    "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

    by winningugly on Jan 7, 2008 7:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    i had to read your post twice...
    at first glance, i thought you wrote he slid into home with ELIAN.
    Please don't dominate the rap, jack, if you've got nothing new to say.

    by Toonderstrook on Jan 7, 2008 7:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Goddamn government workers...
    OK, Janet Reno was the BOMB for while (Waco, Elian) but let it go, man.
    "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

    by winningugly on Jan 7, 2008 7:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Clemens controls his anger....
    A few years ago who knows, maybe roid fueled anger would have led him to throw a shattered bat head at someone.

    Oh yeah, he did.

    Canada's finest

    by MarkD on Jan 7, 2008 7:19 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    looking through the results
    it seems like SSS is missing representation from 1/3 of sox fans (or, at the least, chicagosports.com visitors who vote in polls).

    by larry on Jan 7, 2008 9:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    and
    as you pointed out, the funny cubs fans who voted for ozuna to start.
    12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

    by The Deacon on Jan 8, 2008 7:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    outfielders
    Given the players currently on the White Sox roster (and Alexei Ramirez), what would your optimal outfield alignment be?

        * Who would play LF? Dye (could be like a soriano out there in left and take advantage of his strong arm)
        * RF? Swisher (i guess a bit weaker arm but as  people here point out, swisher would no doubt give up less extra base hits)
        * CF? Quentin (because -hopefully after an extended time, he's athletic enough to improve and I thought i saw somewhere that he had a pretty good arm. I would hope he would at least have average range. if quentin doesnt hit then its easy.. go fetch B.A.)

        * Would you platoon players? Probably not on a regular basis as there doesnt seem to be ideal platoon partners.. maybe have swisher DH/1b and go with a better defense when Thome faces tough lefties or spelling konerko. Play B.A. in center or owens in center. defensive replacements late in games more.
        * Who is your 4th outfielder? Owens. (speed is needed, range is needed. Hell maybe we can have the relief pitcher effect and get a couple more 'blocks per hour' on his noodle arm)
        * 5th? B.A.

    Alexi makes the team instead of ozuna backing up 2nd/ss and all outfield spots as well along with uribe.

    It's all about the SOX baby! www.firestarclothing.com

    by Eternalkonflict on Jan 7, 2008 10:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    weird
    i really dont see how the mariners won 88 games last year.  i think thats a bad move if they give up a bunch for bedard as i dont think they'll win the division regardless, and im sure bedard will leave for FA in what, 2 years?
    12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

    by The Deacon on Jan 8, 2008 8:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    outfield
    too many variables to even say who should play in the outfield -- i.e. what can Ramirez do? And remember, Anderson might be the best OF on the team. If he hits in the spring, what about him?

    Maybe i'm alone, but keep Dye in right. He's not the problem. Had third best fielding percentage in the league and made some huge, run-saving catches.

    by bring back wimpy on Jan 8, 2008 9:00 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Fielding Percentage
    Doesn't tell you much.  i.e. It doesn't reflect the balls that JD couldn't get to in the gap or corner.

    by BoKnows on Jan 8, 2008 9:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    exactly
    he may not have made an error on certain plays, but other RF would get to a lot of balls JD didnt, or a lot of RF'ers would have kept some things to singles instead of doubles or triples.
    12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

    by The Deacon on Jan 8, 2008 9:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    BP analysis of swisher trade
    http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7030
    Acquired OF/1B-S Nick Swisher from the Athletics for LHP Gio Gonzalez, RHP Fautino De Los Santos, and OF-L Ryan Sweeney.

    To be blunt, this was the perfect move for Kenny Williams to pull off as a matter of taking his club's near-term chances seriously. It doesn't rate with Dave Dombrowski's achievements in this winter's Hot Stove League, but it's up there. Swisher's the sort of young veteran that the Sox can contend with now and several years into the future, he gives a heavily right-handed lineup some extra lefty sock (against right-handed pitching, of course), and he's a pull hitter from both sides of the plate coming to a park that has two friendly corners for him to take aim at.

    The important thing to remember is that this isn't a player Kenny Williams has to worry about re-signing. The deal really only gets better when you get into the financials and consider his age. Swisher is entering his age-27 season, and he's signed through at least 2011--or the next four seasons--for a little more than $25.5 million, and just under $35 million if they pick up his 2012 option, which would be his age-31 season. Sneaking a peak at Nate's 2008 PECOTA cards and the MORP calculations, Swisher's productivity should be in the .300 range in EqA through 2012, with OBPs around .370 and slugging over .490 all the way through; that's good for about $58 million in value. Remember, no arbitration, no negotiation, and making that call right now, here in January, you're talking about acquiring a key piece for a contending lineup at a price any team that takes the 'c'-word seriously should be able to afford for five years. And because of the great likelihood that Swisher will deliver that value through the next five seasons, this is not at all like retaining Jermaine Dye or trading for Jim Thome--it's about trying to put a solid club on the field for those five years.

    Indulge me as I make an unfair comparison. The Royals just spent $36 million for three years on an older, worse player--Jose Guillen--essentially just to get themselves taken seriously when they're ready to get all grown up in a few years. That's not an apples to apples comparison, of course--last spring, Swisher effectively traded two years of free agency for right-now financial security. Where this is an apples to apples comparison is that after losing out on the free agent market, Kenny Williams wound up doing something better than buying a top-shelf free agent--he acquired a player who will deliver better than most of this winter's premium free agents for a fraction of the cost.

    In terms of what this does to the club's roster shape, somebody politely said that this creates a competition between Carlos Quentin and Jerry Owens for outfield playing time, with Swisher playing either center or left. On a purely offensive level, it's a no-brainer; Owens is just the latest product from the fifth-outfielder assembly line that makes you wonder why it was built. Unfortunately, there are those pesky real-world defensive considerations, and Swisher's not exactly a quality center fielder. Obviously, a solution that involves three at-bats for Quentin per start and late-game switches that put Owens in the game wouldn't be all that novel; heck, Ozzie Guillen could even make a point of pinch-running for Konerko with Owens if he reaches base in his fourth at-bat, game situation permitting, and optimizing his defense's alignment from there. However, the interesting mix of limitations and virtues that Swisher brings to the mix in picking an alignment lends some credence to the subsequent rumors about a potential deal with the Angels, where Paul Konerko might get sent to Anaheim while the Sox would potentially get Chone Figgins (and something else, of course). This would put Swisher at first, Figgins in center, and address in a pretty proactive manner any concerns about Konerko's near-term decline.

    Of course, there's still the problem of who's going to pitch for this team, but maybe the Sox have another masterstroke up their sleeves. Unfortunately, they don't have a whole lot else to deal, having already traded three of their four best prospects. The rules prohibit their dealing the fourth until next summer, and there's not much else left of value that any other team would want. So they are left with the challenge of re-purposing one of their key components, like Konerko, in a deal to strike a better balance between offense and defense. Because right now, as fun as that offense should be, the Sox are still short of being contenders, essentially because of a pitching staff that has three guys they can count on and a couple of dozen question marks.

    Finally, on a more personal level, I'm excited, in that Swisher's a lot of fun to watch hit, and now that I'm in Chicago, seeing him play in person as opposed to on the screen that much more often will be that much better, certainly. But as I say below, I'm also a wee bit disappointed on the level of my being an A's fan: seeing Swish play here will be a bittersweet thing.

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 9:55 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

    and from the A's perspective
    I may be coming at this the wrong way, but I hate this deal for the A's. Not because of what it represents--hey, they're rebuilding, we get it--but because of what they got. I know Gonzalez and De Los Santos were the best the Sox had left to offer. I guess I just start off with the assumption that any group of pitchers involves casualties and risk, and that makes me squeamish. Gonzalez or De Los Santos? Both have promise, both are very young, but as a matter of odds alone, it's as if you have to start with the assumption that one of them's going to bust something before the A's ever get a good look at him. Of course, with Jose Rijo on the Hall of Fame ballot, I'm also reminded how very exasperating an unfinished talented pitcher can be--not so much that I welcomed the deal for Dave Parker, though.

    So, De Los Santos has explosive velocity and a power curve, and he'll have to see what he can do against the Cal League and if he can master a changeup. That's the best of the lot. Then there's Gio Gonzalez; he'll be up sooner, certainly, but is he any more promising than, say, Dan Meyer was? I say that as someone who really, really likes Gonzalez, but again, we're talking about a guy who could make it up this year, and who might be a solid rotation starter. Admittedly, that costs more to find and keep in the face of the pressure of the open market than the A's would have paid Swisher, so that could turn out well. The problem is the 'could' and 'might' parts.

    Finally, there's Sweeney, who's seen as something more than a throw-in. I'm not unsympathetic to that opinion: Sweeney will only be 23 this season and already has considerable upper-level experience, can play all three outfield positions, and did hit International League right-handed pitching at a .285/.358/.458 clip. Maybe if you decide to be optimistic, that's a guy who turns into the new Todd Hollandsworth, minus the dopey BBWAA vote; a solid fourth outfielder with power who you can plug in every day for a couple of weeks at a stretch, or carry as a regular if you're getting a ton of runs from your infielders. Call me skeptical, but I don't really care for the likelihood of those possibilities, although I can understand how somebody could see them and get interested, especially when you're looking for that extra body to flesh out a deal. It doesn't balance it out, though.

    Now, I admit, there's a chance here that Sweeney just needs some extra instruction, and will get massively better if he works with somebody who helps him improve pitch identification. I doubt it, but let's move on. Maybe four years from now, Gonzalez and De Los Santos will be two-fifths of a very good rotation. It could happen, sure. You believe all that, balanced against the much greater certainty that Swisher's going to be an underpaid key to his team's bid for contention for years to come, and think it equals out? Me neither.

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Thanks for posting these...
    by the way, larry.

    I can definitely see what's not to like about this trade from an A's fan's perspective.

    I guess it's like the old saw - if fans from both teams are pissed off, that means it was a pretty decent trade for both sides.  Either that, or a pretty horrible one.

    I guess it'll be interesting to find out.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    we have poor students and pensioners
    on this board. they can't afford a BP subscription and have made their displeasure at me posting links to BP known. at any rate, it's good analysis (if long) so everyone may as well get the chance to read it.

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Certainy appreciate you
    posting these.  Makes for better conversation when you do that (as opposed to just providing the links).

    by palehose67 on Jan 8, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    I resemble that remark
    No stinkin' pensions here!
    "I can't give you a dollar if I don't have 50 cents. Decisions are made awfully easy for you."

    by winningugly on Jan 8, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    you certainly do!
    It should be called Bill Veeck Park!

    by Chiburb on Jan 8, 2008 5:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Larry
    I appreciate the free knowledge from BP. Even though I told you all that already in one of my recent posts. Im glad BP agrees with me.
    Toonderstrook's myspace page http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=67492521

    by Soulja Boy on Jan 9, 2008 8:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    1 Problem
    Is the A's know how to develop talent and I could see this coming back and biting the Sox.

    But, from a White Sox standpoint - they do not know how to develop talent and thus makes this a good trade.

    I could see DLS, Gonzalez and Sweeney getting the instruction in the A's system that they will not get with the Sox.

    Maybe Kenny realizes that it is in his best interests right now to go after young major league ready talent and not minor league prospects.  

    by BobbySouthSide on Jan 8, 2008 10:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Christina Kahrl...
    tends to be a bit nicer to the White Sox than most B-Pro writers.

    She pretty much says exactly what the optimists around here are saying - that Swisher is a legitimate ballplayer with a lot of trade value, and Ken Williams did make the team better, at least in the short run, with this trade.

    I also agree that pitching and defense is now the key.  I know that some Sox fans wouldn't mind seeing the softball lineup they currently have, but if the goal is to win in the 2008-2010 window (which seems to be what Williams is doing), they have to get better at preventing runs.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    my problem with the trade
    has always been the timing. it's a good trade in a vacuum. it may even end up being a great trade. but i'm not certain where that gets the sox at this point in time. she points out the main problem, as you say: it's the pitching, dummy (and the defense to an extent, as well).

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Yup.
    If I were running things, I'd still be all about punting 2008, but since that's clearly not in the cards, you have to look at what Williams seems to be trying to do and judge him based on how well he's doing that.  

    I don't think he's necessarily ignoring the future, but he's not really willing to sacrifice the present for the future, either.  He's basically trying to replace parts on the fly.  I think he's focused on what he would call the "three-year board".

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Cabrera and Linebrink
    Are big shocks to me, unless we lock up Cabrera for another 2 years.  Otherwise, Kenny should have traded Garland to the M's, Mets, etc. for an OF prospect similar to Quintin.  

    Sox should have traded Garland to the Mets for Milledge (if the Mets would have done this?).

    You plug Ramirez and Uribe at SS, your OF is set with Quintin in LF and Milledge in CF.  You still make the trade for Swisher and move him to 1B.  You trade Konerko for a young back of the rotation starter and young SS.  In spring training you package Crede and Sweeney for a reliever.

    CF Milledge
    1b Swisher
    DH Thome
    RF Dye
    C AJ
    3B Fields
    LF Quintin
    2B Richar
    SS Ramirez/Uribe

    Team is not that much worse than what we have now, plus you keep Gio and DLS to compete for the rotation in 2009.

    You also get a SS for 2009 from the Konerko trade and another starter.  After 2008 you free up some money from Thome and Uribe and the trade of Garland and Konerko for a FA RF'er and starter.

    by BobbySouthSide on Jan 8, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Teams
    Cooled on Milledge while the Mets were shopping him.  I was very surprised when the deal with Nats went down, which leads me to believe that there were reasons (unknown to the public) he didn't get traded for a starter.

    by BoKnows on Jan 8, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Also...
    I think that Omar Moreno was bound and determined to get a catcher with defensive value in exchange for Milledge.  The Sox could never offer that.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 10:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    agreed
    i think he was "Kenny-Like" and was determined to get "his guy"(defensive catcher) no matter what the cost.
    12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

    by The Deacon on Jan 8, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    at least KW
    just spends money and doesn't waste prospects (or at least prospects of any value, if we want to include the various alomars trades) to get his guys.

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 11:08 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    what about...
    "We wanted to...acquire Carlos Quentin -- and not a guy like him, but actually Carlos Quentin?"
    Please don't dominate the rap, jack, if you've got nothing new to say.

    by Toonderstrook on Jan 8, 2008 12:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    well
    one would hope that when a GM trades for a player, they sort of want that particular player. i was thinking more of the somewhat irrational hard-ons GMs seem to get. you know, "i need a defensive catcher and will give up a good prospect for him." or "i need scott linebrink and will give him a ridicuous contract and a NTC."

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Well you can't blame an
    accomplished basestealer for being obsessed with defensive catchers!

    Haven't heard the nmae Omar Moreno in a long time. lol.

    by bhoov on Jan 8, 2008 11:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Ugh.
    Omar Minaya.  I'm tired this morning.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 11:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    What did we give up
    for Swisher in your scenario?
    "All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

    by ballyb on Jan 8, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Good point
    We would have given up DLS and Gonzo.

    So, I guess my scenario isn't as good as I once thought!  Too much coffee...

    But I still would have liked to see Milledge on this team instead of Cabrera...for some reason Omar had a brain fart and got Schneider and Church instead of a starter.

    Mets bats and LoDuca didn't let them down last year - pitching did.  Now they may trade away the rest of the farm for Santana....

    by BobbySouthSide on Jan 8, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    if i were the mets
    i would trade the farm for santana.  You already have the youngest, and best left side of the IF in the majors.  you're definitely in a position to win now, and your major need is an Ace to solidify the pitching staff, and as we have all seen, if a santana move is made, having el-duque as your #5 works out pretty well, hahahah.  i was pretty amazed  at duque's numbers last year.  Santana, Pedro, Maine, Ollie P, and El Duque would be a nice staff, especially in the hitters packed NL East.
    12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

    by The Deacon on Jan 8, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    And it would be nice to have Santana
    in the NL (but not so nice for the NL).

    by palehose67 on Jan 8, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    i agree
    but didnt the sox need pitching before this trade as well? Neither of the pitchers were going to help anytime soon.. gio possibly down the line in '08 but certainly in '09. That's not a given though. I would've still liked to get someone a bit more proven albeit off the scrap head type like lieber, or through trades. They can still accomplish that of course. At a one move at a time pace, they still needed to upgrade the offense and give themselves more options that will be more than likely to pan out.
    It's all about the SOX baby! www.firestarclothing.com

    by Eternalkonflict on Jan 9, 2008 1:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Sounds like an endorsement to me
    "Find out what you are doing wrong and STOP doing that."

    by Tdogg on Jan 8, 2008 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    Greetings, fellow White Sox writer!
    Here's how I'd stack up my outfield.

    We have Nick Swisher, who can play both infield and outfield, so I'd put him in left. Swishy played left field a good amount of time while he was with the A's.

    As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't hate seeing Quentin platoon with Swishy in left and Owens and Ramirez in center. When Swisher's playing first for a resting Konerko (if the deal goes through, otherwise I see Swishy as our full time first baseman) Quentin could be in left field.

    Then, Dye would be staying in right running around with his tired old legs, hustling to make spectacular catches and then rocketing the ball to home and getting the runner out by a hair.

    If you're looking for a combination of grace, speed and power... I suggest you steer away from Toby Hall...

    by ChiSoxBoy on Jan 8, 2008 10:11 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

    Question on Quentin
    Is he going to be ready to play? I've read conflicting stories on him... and the Sox are usually pretty tight with info like that. If he's not, then I guess the outfield is solved: Swisher (LF), Owens (CF), Dye (RF).

    by Brush Back on Jan 8, 2008 10:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

    HOF results...
    Gossage in, nobody else on this ballot.

    Rice fell just short (72%).

    I'm curious as to what Mark McGwire's numbers look like.

    by The Jerry Royster Experience on Jan 8, 2008 1:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    I think suggesting a lineup at this juncture...
    is kinda pointless and merely idle talk since so much depends on how Quentin, Anderson, Owens, and Ramirez perform in ST and if any other moves are made to the roster (e.g. Konerko, Crede).

    But I will play the game nonetheless.

    I think if Dye won't move from RF, then I would propose:

    CF - Quentin and Anderson (platoon)
    LF - Swisher
    RF - Dye

    I would consider a platoon depending on how they perform in ST.

    Obviously this means that Fields is at 3B and Crede is dealt. If Crede stays, then I suppose it's Fields in LF, Swisher in CF, Dye in RF giving us one of the worst defensive outfields maybe ever.

    I like Larry's idea of having Dye DH against lefties and moving Fields to the OF mix.

    I think it's also tough to determine outfield spots now since we haven't seen Quentin or Swisher roaming CF in the Cell.

    I think ideally I would have Dye in LF, Swisher in CF, Quentin in LF. If Swisher can't handle CF, switch him with Quentin. Fields playing 3B with Crede dealt, and one of Anderson/Owens dealt for a reliever.

    "God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

    by Shoeless In SC on Jan 8, 2008 2:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

    You say "pointless" and
    "idle talk" like they're bad things.  That's kind of what we all do here.  I think you meant to say "Quentin in RF" at the end of your post, and if so, I agree with you.  And again, I love the idea of Dye as DH against certain lefties.

    by palehose67 on Jan 8, 2008 4:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    just to clarify what i meant when i wrote
    what SC refers to (since it wasn't clear), i obviously don't want thome against lefties. so DH is open against them. with our present roster, you could do a number of things. but, with age, dye could probably benefit from not being in the outfield. but i wasn't necessarily married to him being the DH all the time against lefties. i think PK could also benefit from getting a rest from fielding and putting dye at first.

    by larry on Jan 8, 2008 4:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

    good points
    "God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

    by Shoeless In SC on Jan 9, 2008 12:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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