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Lining Up the Suspects

I've always kinda hated prospect rankings. Player A is ranked 3 and Player B is ranked 9; so that means what, exactly? He's 6 better?

340x_medium

Conversely, I've always enjoyed the actual act of ranking prospects, and generally subscribe to the idea that (under the right circumstances) a large group of reasonably educated people can collectively come to a conclusion as accurate as a one from a supposed expert.

So, you can see my dilemma. I'd like to mine the input of my fellow SSSers to output a prospect list, but what does that resulting list really say?

I've thought about ways to come up with a more meaningful ranking system, and have experimented with something like the USS Mariner's Future Forty in the past. I'm not smart enough to come up with a system in which I'm fully satisfied, so this is the beginning of another half-hearted attempt at a prospect classification system.

The basis for this system is that there are fundamentally 5 types of prospects.
  • Elite Prospects -- These are the top 10-20 prospects in all of baseball. True blue chippers. Only a handful of clubs will have even one "Elite Prospect."
  • Top Prospects -- These are players who will probably find their way onto Baseball America's Top 100 list. Nearly every team has at least 1 "Top Prospect," with great systems having 5 or more.
  • Plain Ol' Prospects -- These are players with solid upside and/or scouting reports, but not enough to warrant top prospect status. They're the guys who fill out the 3-12+ area on a BA-type prospect list.
  • More Suspect than Prospects -- These are players with some upside and/or scouting report of a real prospect, but who also have a red flag of one form or another.
  • Non-Prospects -- No real explanation necessary, I hope.

The strength of the system lies in the classification of what keeps a particular player out of one category over another, something that tells us more than 4 is better than 6. Oh, and of course, your input went into the general classification of the players. I didn't put up the entry form until Friday afternoon, so if you have participated there's still time. I'll eventually post an College AP-style poll with our rankings, but for right now lets take a look at the guys who fall into the Suspects category. Follow me over the jump.

And Colin, I saw you had a piece scheduled to post Monday morning. I moved it back to the early afternoon to more accurately reflect your circadian rhythms.

Star-divide

Helium Watch

Dexter Carter -- While Silverio is an example of scouting gone wrong--this lead sounds funny because I regrouped the players--Carter was a steal in the 14th round of the 2008 draft, presumably on strong scouting. Carter couldn't find the zone in his limited playing time at Old Dominion, but the Sox have immediately cleaned up his delivery and it's paying dividends. He's got a big frame and a solid fastball (90-93 MPH), plus a mid-70's curve that he used to rack up bundles of Ks in the Pioneer League. Needs to refine his change and put up some number in full season ball (High-A, I presume) next year to make the jump up the prospect ladder.

John Ely -- Without sounding too much like Joe Morgan, Ely needs to be more consistent. The 2007 3rd rounder showed no ill-effects from skipping Low-A in April, but he struggled to match those results for the rest of the season. He has a plus changeup (perhaps the best in the Sox system) and low 90's fastball, that he used to post solid peripherals. But he was unable to convert those peripherals into run prevention. Nevertheless, peripherals are often a more important prospect indicator, and he could find himself loving the spacious dimensions of Birmingham next year.

Lucas Harrell -- Health. Harrell has the stuff to compete on the major league level, but hasn't seen much action on the mound since mid-'06. He missed last season due to shoulder surgery, and and only got 60 innings in this season, so the Sox have sent him to the AFL to get some extra work. His fastball was supposedly back (90-94 MPH) in spring, and, I know this should come as no surprise to many of you, I wouldn't be surprised to see him shoot up the system next year.

Steven Upchurch -- Upchurch was the top ranked draft prospect out of the state of Alabama in the '08 draft. A signability pick, the Sox picked him up early on day 2 and found his demands quite reasonable ($128K Bonus, less than 6th round pick KW jr.). His performance (1.09 WHIP in 30 IP) in the Appy league and age (turned 19 after the season) would have me putting him in the "prospect" category, but you've got him grouped here. I imagine he'll be sent to Kanny out of spring, which would make him the Sox best young pitching prospect.

Daniel Hudson -- Hudson was Carter's college teammate, and was drafted a day earlier than him. They posted remarkably similar numbers in Great Falls, but Hudson is the more polished of the two, which might be a bad thing. Hudson has always been a Vazquez-type who posts strong peripherals but mediocre run prevention. He was supposed to dominate Rookie League hitters. I don't think we have enough info to put him anywhere but the suspects category.

Brett Morel -- Admittedly, I forgot Morel when I was making our form. And the truth is I like him a lot more than many of the other suspects listed here. I liked his swing from the scouting video on draft day and noted that he should be able to produce a high average throughout the minors. He reportedly has a strong glove at third, and at least partially answered some of my concerns by posting a decent walk rate. He should probably be paired with Danks at and the ODU pitchers in Winston-Salem next year.

Former Prospects

Lance Broadway -- Hit rate. Hit rate. Hit rate. You can't find anyone who had a successful major league career after posting a hit rate like that of Broadway in '08. Broadway has below-average stuff, especially for a 1st-rounder. I'd still say his best comparable is probably Josh Towers, but Broadway has never demonstrated that kind of control at any professional level.

Kyle McCulloch -- Lance Broadway minus a level. I'd rank him as a non-prospect were it not for his draft pedigree, 28th overall in '06.

Limited Upside

Justin Cassell and Jacob Rasner -- Both have older family members who are what I would consider AAAA-type talent. Both kept their ERA's low thanks to a number of pitches and an ability to induce ground balls. Cassell led the Southern League in ERA among those qualified, but probably doesn't have a single pitch that could be considered a plus major league pitch. Rasner has a decent fastball (90-91 MPH), and at 21 was age-appropriate for his league (Carolina), so he's a slightly better prospect. But both need to repeat and/or improve their performance while jumping a level before we should start taking them seriously as prospects.

Jon Link and Kanekoa Texeira -- Minor league closers = limited ceiling. Link has a solid fastball (low-to-mid 90's) while Texiera has nasty slider to pair with his (90-91 MPH fastball). Both could be in the mix for a back-end spot in the bullpen this spring, but figure to open the season in Charlotte.

Cole Armstrong -- Armstrong may be a bit of a late bloomer, and for the Sox sake, I hope he is. He was picked up in the minor-league phase of the Rule 5 draft a couple years ago, and seemed like an odd add to the 40-man last off-season. He figures to only be a back-up at the major leagues, but he's improving his case for that with a strong showing in the first few games in the Arizona Fall League.

International Question Marks

Juan Silverio -- Silverio ranks here based on his signing bonus ($600K) and age(17), which may not even be accurate. Silverio didn't impress in the Appy League. In fact, he was described as "completely overmatched" by Baseball America, who noted his "mature upper body"--hmm, perhaps because he is mature--poor pitch recognition and "slow feet." Honestly, he's a non-prospect who has $600K, minus whatever he gave Dave Wilder.

Jose Martinez -- Martinez was a strong performer who faded late in Bristol last season. His youth and tools had him ranked solidly among the "plain ol' prospects" last year, and had the Sox skip to full season ball this year. He started slow, but had really seemed to adjust to A-ball in May before disappearing for the season, which our Bureau friend said was due to a broken foot. If healthy, he might be sent back to Kanny out of spring, but look for him to find his way to Winston-Salem by the end of the year to put himself back on the prospect map.

Jerry Puentes -- The most interesting player from the Sox two Dominican teams. He posted a decent OBP and strike zone control as a 16 year old while playing shortstop. Assuming the age is correct, and that's a big assumption after on the Wilder fiasco, Puentes is the prospect that Silverio was supposed to be. Yes, .284/.357/.335 is a very good line for a 16 year old in the DSL. I assume he is one of the other unnamed players who the Sox signed at the same time as Silverio, and would expect to see him in Bristol next season.

Comment 73 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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as always

good work cheat. solid read. agree on all points.

that last sentence on silverio stung a bit. i’m glad wilder is out before it got too bad.

by Craig Grebeck on Oct 13, 2008 12:13 AM CDT reply actions  

I presume you mean Justin Cassell?

That Silverio graph is awesome, though.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Oct 13, 2008 12:21 AM CDT reply actions  

Hey, I just learned there's a third Cassell brother

But Jack Cassell is also a Florida urologist, so you saved WU some confusion.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Oct 13, 2008 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

graph?

I didn’t see a graph, perhaps I missed something?

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

unless, of course, you meant paragraph

because I see that paragraph on Silverio ;)

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

fucking awesome cheat

i still think mccullough will rebound this year and turn some heads…but then again he’s just as likely to disappear like felix diaz or arnie munoz

takes some real stones for the one certifiable cocksucker on here to jump into this convo.-mm

by furby2056 on Oct 13, 2008 12:29 AM CDT reply actions  

NOTE: This is far from a complete list of Suspects

The missing players are either even more lightly regarded or I know very little about, or more likely, some combination of both.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Oct 13, 2008 12:32 AM CDT reply actions  

Also, nice to hear about Puentes...

I tried keeping up with the DSL. Good to see those numbers out of a kid that young.

by Craig Grebeck on Oct 13, 2008 12:41 AM CDT reply actions  

awwwweeesssooooome

there’s a pretty serious parallel between christmas presents and full prospect reports such as this.

and i agree with jim about what you wrote about silverio.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:49 AM CDT reply actions  

thx for the update bout the post

arbeite ich jetzt an die heisse ecke

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:51 AM CDT reply actions  

sigh...three in a row

also wanted to say that harrell:you:cassell:me, though yours is more in the scouting/has-knowledge-of sense, and mine is in a wishful-thinking/random-attachment.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:52 AM CDT reply actions  

They're similar --

they posted essentially the same (important) numbers in B’ham this year, but Harrell is about a year younger with better stuff, and was still a little ouchy this year.

I see one as having upside, and one as having to prove himself.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Oct 13, 2008 12:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks, Cheat!

...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.

by homesickalien on Oct 13, 2008 9:37 AM CDT reply actions  

muchos gracias

for those of us that have little to no knowledge of the farm system, these updates are excellent

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 10:33 AM CDT reply actions  

Carter, I believe.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oops.

He’s a good looking man, I’ll give him that.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

keeping up the "sort of" gay thing, huh?

"well, i'm sure i'd feel much worse if i weren't under such heavy sedation."

by Toonderstrook on Oct 13, 2008 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

and in a non-gay sort of way,

i really like him. i think he’s going to be quite good. if we’re talking upside, this guy is it.

by larry on Oct 13, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of African-American pitchers,

did you see who won hisself a playoff game for Tampa? That’s right, DP. About time they used him. He’s going to be huge for Tampa, helath permitting.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

and strike zone command permitting.

"well, i'm sure i'd feel much worse if i weren't under such heavy sedation."

by Toonderstrook on Oct 13, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

The last time I said a talented black Tampa player was young and immature

you jumped my shit for a week, stating I was making excuses. I’ll not argue that his command will improve. I won’t.

PS Reviewing the progress of the aforementioned talented black Tampa player, BJU seems to straightened his shit out just in time for the playoffs.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

i'm rooting for them both.

"well, i'm sure i'd feel much worse if i weren't under such heavy sedation."

by Toonderstrook on Oct 13, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Except for lollygagging on fly balls to CF

or so they said on the radio broadcast

He has had a nice go of it at the dish recently.

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

And it continues...

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

it's that fucker now. not me.

"well, i'm sure i'd feel much worse if i weren't under such heavy sedation."

by Toonderstrook on Oct 13, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, I meant Upton's splash at the dish.

3-run dong.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe he's my new fave player

just because he’s now starting to get it – he can be a team leader and a star, and I think it is beginning to matter to him.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

That was the best part of where we sat - seeing/hearing him pop the mitt.

Well, that and the guys who wanted to fight me – oh, and the security staff.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

ich auch

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm color blind.

But I’ll never mistake Broadway for Carter again, I’ll grant you that.

(Wow, what a risky, courageous statement that was.)

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

color blind in a literal or liberal sense?

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Liberal, man.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

i really wish i had given some more thought to my rankings

way off the top of my head.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 10:57 AM CDT reply actions  

If I hadn't checked fangraphs, I would have made the same mistake

but his number did not look good

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

hype is a poor thing to evaluate a player on.

he shouldn’t have been on any lists last year, either, despite what phil rogers says. he’s seventeen. he gets an incomplete.

by larry on Oct 13, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah and i didn't rank him.

so how bad can i really be doing? shelby should have been on there. danks is a guy i don’t know a thing about outside of him lighting up Kanny for 2 weeks and yet was number 6 on my list. i would probably bump carter up. ely is a pretty decent pick. if he cuts his walk rate a bit, he could move pretty quick since he’s a polish-type anyway…

honestly, looking at the players, there’s so few really good picks outside of carter that it makes more sense to do what Cheat is doing anyway. outside of Beckham, Poreda, Allen, Richard and Getz, there’s just a lot of hodge-podge that we need more info on.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

just didn't really sit down and decide what i thought about each player.

due diligence and all that.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

is that like premature ejaculation?

because from what I’ve heard about colintj from MM and HSA, he knows a lot about the subject.

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

MINOR LEAGUE PROSPECTS

a prospect is a prospect is a prospect..until he becomes an MLB player. you can rate them any way you want.. engage in speculation & conjecture all day every day.. to what end? it is still a crapshoot. you mention all these facts but not the most important ones..
what is it going to take for these guys to step up to the next level make the grade? therein lies the crux of the problem as well the answer :
how good are the coaches? the

by KINGCOACH on Oct 13, 2008 11:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Cheat, how do you ban people?

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only Christopher Michaels has that power

but I took care of it for you.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Oct 13, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

hooray!

"Deserve's got nothin to do with it."

by U-God on Oct 13, 2008 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

For Great Porno Justice!

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

so his last word on SSS was "the"?

perfect.

You're on thin fucking ice my pedigree chums, and I shall be under it when it breaks. Now, fuck off.

by MarketMaker on Oct 13, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

i wish!

just the 15th deadline for tax returns.

by scott b on Oct 13, 2008 12:00 PM CDT reply actions  

MINOR LEAGUE PROSPECTS

the most important question everyone should be asking is how good are the coaches? i never hear anyone grading them.. there are 30 other teams trying to do the same thing as the SOX .. so there is a point of comparison ..from BRICKHEAD OZZIE on down, compared to other teams ESPECIALLY in the minors this organization either can’t pick the right players or they can’t bring them along with the same excellence as other teams.. the RAYS are doing something the SOX aren’t doing.. bringing along players from their own system.. and they aren’t the only ones.. i read where the SOX sent a bunch of player development people out the door.. what was the reason?
from what i can see this organization is replete with a lot of people who got their jobs through the goodoleboy network rather than because of their ability..lotta people used to wear a SOX uniform.. obviously it ain’t working so good.
the guys they have brought up in the last 2 years for the most part washed out.. why?
i am not in a position to know all the minor league coaches.. perhaps someone can rate the coaches as well as the prospects.. assuming the acumen to pick players being equal, the difference between prospects on different teams must be the coaching.. the prospects are only as good as the coaching they get…. so looking at the success rate of the SOX prospects… what deduction can you make?

by KINGCOACH on Oct 13, 2008 12:07 PM CDT reply actions  

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Oct 13, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

you really don't know why all the player development people were let go?

where is this magical rock you live under that lacks espn and cultural diversity?

and how do you get internet service and electricity there?

"Deserve's got nothin to do with it."

by U-God on Oct 13, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

"it's a living"

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

So, you would rather be awful for 10 years and stock up top 5 draft picks, instead of being in contention every year as the Sox are?
If you wanted to make a valid comparison of a team picking up young talent, you should have used the Red Sox. The White Sox will have to suck awfully hard for at least 5 years to do what the Rays are doing right now.
Guys like Upton, Longoria, Price, Crawford, etc.. don’t fall to the White Sox. Our lack of young talent has nothing to do with coaching. If it did, people would be spending 10 million a year on a minor league coach, not million dollar signing bonuses to players. You can’t turn a Chris Getz into a BJ Upton, even if you had Joe Torre down there.

Any Ray’s fan would rather have the White Sox results over the last 10 years than the Rays.

by Grinder in Training on Oct 13, 2008 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Without sounding too much like Joe Morgan, Ely needs to be more consistent. The 2007 3rd rounder showed no ill-effects from skipping Low-A in April, but he struggled to match those results for the rest of the season. He has a plus changeup (perhaps the best in the Sox system) and low 90’s fastball, that he used to post solid peripherals.

Every last bit of that sounds like an impending gopher ball problem. And when I say “impending” I mean “is something he’s ”http://firstinning.com/stats/?type=pitching&min=90&lg=CARO&season=2008&desc=hr_air" >currently suffering from".

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:36 PM CDT reply actions  

try here

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

i'm not sure why that got html owned.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

clearly has to do with premature ejaculation

either that, or you suck. ;)

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Oct 13, 2008 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

One other

guy I might put on the “suspects” list is Christian Marrero. You could say he’s John Shelby lite. Almost exactly one year younger and one level behind Shelby. Posted a somewhat worse performance at Kanny and can’t play CF. So he’s not the prospect Shelby is. But he posted a .945 OPS at Great Falls last year and a .786 OPS for Kanny this year. But IMO his shelbyesque post All-Star performance at Kanny lifted him from non-propsect to suspect:

Post All-Star: .298/.387/.514/.901

So i think he belongs in the 10-20 range of prospects along with these other “suspects”.

I think we ought to call Thome and Konerko the "Cholesterol Brothers" because of the way they clog the bases.

by bhoov on Oct 13, 2008 1:14 PM CDT reply actions  

he was the reason i thought they might think Carter was superflous to some degree

last year, but he fared very poorly on the whole. if he’s found it, that’d be great.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Oct 13, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Iwamura would be Wade Boggs

if he resided in Fenway. Great oppo-field Monster swing.

I think i did this wrong. Oh well…..delete my votes as they all suck anyway.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Oct 10, 2008 2:02 AM EDT

by winningugly on Oct 13, 2008 6:05 PM CDT reply actions  

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