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BP Chat: On the Swisher Deal

Josh (Chicago): Steve, there are several reasons Kenny Williams may have traded Nick Swisher that have nothing to do with money/talent. As it's been reported on the Chicago stations, Swisher shut out the coaching staff completely last year, blew off the hitting coach when he tried to help him, and simply withdrew into himself once he was put in a platoon. Additionally, Swisher's locker room clown act was beginning to wear thin (his partner in crime, Toby Hall, has also been shown the door). Just something to keep in mind before blasting Kenny Williams...
Steven Goldman: I wasn't necessarily blasting him, but the trade was uneven, even if his reasons are of the off-field variety. Whatever the issues with Swisher's personality and comportment, he's a guy with value, a four-position guy who has produced in the past and even in a miserable year took a whole bunch of walks and hit with power. Players are traded for all kinds of reasons, even the one you site--that they're too annoying to live with. That still doesn't mean that the team shouldn't get value for them. At first glance it doesn't appear Williams did that.

about 3 years ago Thecheatsmoking_tiny The Cheat 43 comments 0 recs  | 

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I also thought Sabernomics had a nice conclusion

http://www.sabernomics.com/sabernomics/index.php/2008/11/breaking-down-the-swisher-deal/

In conclusion, this is a bad trade for the Sox, possibly motivated by an impulse to dump an asset that was poorly performing in the short run. I really don’t like when my values differ from the market; but, in this case, I think Swisher would just about have to be a complete disaster for this trade to come out in the Sox’s favor.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Nov 14, 2008 6:39 PM CST reply actions  

BDD on the swisher deal

http://baseballdigestdaily.com/blogs/2008/11/14/swish-go-the-white-sox/

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 6:39 PM CST reply actions  

This is why these stats are obviously ridiculous

Mark Ellis is a superstar? Alexei Ramirez needs work? numbers lie… watch the games for god sake and figure out for yourself who is a good player. You goofballs here at SSS have told me that Mark Ellis is better than Alexei Ramirez and Nick Swisher is better than Jermaine Dye in consecutive days. I think you are all in need of help.

You start telling aggressive hitters to have patience and they quickly turn to crap.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Nov 14, 2008 7:09 PM CST up reply actions  

You goofballs here at SSS have told me

just to be clear: I just posted the link, I didn’t endorse the linked article

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 7:18 PM CST up reply actions  

bollocks mate

that alexei is hopeless, all he does is swing at pitches all the time and try and hit them, never walks, and he his a dogshit 2nd baseman.

by the way, can someone out there send me some chewing tobacco? I can pay and all that, got lots of money.

many thanks

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Nov 14, 2008 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Go to Italy or Norway

They chew up there. I looked all over England for the stuff when I was there. No luck

by 815Sox on Nov 15, 2008 7:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Today we're burying a friend who died of throat cancer.

Great guy, 4 kids, just turned 50 in hospice the other day. Chewed tobacco and smoked cigars.

Might want to rethink that, men.

Sox in 2009!

by ballyb on Nov 15, 2008 8:19 AM CST up reply actions  

sorry about that

the timing of my question couldn’t have been more inappropriate

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Nov 15, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

But I bet Iceland might appreciate the commerce.

Sincethey basically can’t leave their country – their money is worthless anywhere else. (I see your country has equated them with terrorists, since they are trying to freeze 8B pounds worth of deposits.)

Whoosh!

by winningugly on Nov 15, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

the only country in the EU where it is legal

to sell is Sweden, It’s called SNUS there and is very popular, I’ve just ordered a load from the interslice.

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Nov 15, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions  

yes

let’s just believe our own eyes and never question if there is anything beyond that, i look outside my window and see a flat world, therefor those claiming that the world is round must be insane.

by RollingWave on Nov 16, 2008 12:29 AM CST up reply actions  

the world is round?

oh crap…

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 16, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions  

BBTF thread

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/bdd_baer_undue_praise_for_alexei_ramirez/

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 7:14 PM CST up reply actions  

that is the best article I have ever read

I only ever watch the White Sox from England, and I must say that Alexei is a bag of nails who never did anything ever when I watched the games. (apart from all those Grand Slams; that hitting to contact all the time; faking a bunt and slamming to the opposite side when every one wanted him out of the line up; back flipping double plays; and on and on)

get rid of the wiry cunt, he’s fucking hopeless

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Nov 14, 2008 8:02 PM CST up reply actions  

get rid of the wiry cunt, he’s fucking hopeless

that’s the spirit!

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 8:13 PM CST up reply actions  

one more

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2008/11/swish_splashwhi.php

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 8:12 PM CST up reply actions  

BTB
Furthermore, evidence suggests that Swisher was plagued by a lot of bad luck in 2008. His line-drive percentage was 20.9, leading to an expected BABIP of .329. However, his actual BABIP was .248 – the fourth lowest in the American League, and the lowest of his career. His isolated power, walk rate, and strikeout rate remained essentially unchanged from 2007 to 2008. Finally, in an upcoming study I co-authored on hitters’ BABIP, I found that Nick Swisher had the largest split of anyone in baseball between his expected BABIP (derived from a formula that includes many more variables besides just LD) and his actual BABIP. The White Sox sold him incredibly low, and he’s a great bet to bounce back in 2009.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing to trade someone for less than you paid to acquire him. However, to what end was this trade made? The Sox are obviously not in re-building mode. They have a hole in center field and an aging, injury-prone first baseman – both positions can be filled by Swisher. Swisher is not expensive and is not old. Why trade him, especially for pennies on the dollar? Even if they don’t think he’s going to rebound, the players they received from the Yankees were not particularly difficult to find – if they really wanted to, I’m sure the White Sox could’ve found a way to extract Wilson Betemit (or someone like him) without giving up Swisher. There’s no reason why the White Sox should make this trade – especially so early in the offseason.

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/11/14/661061/yankees-bought-low-on-nick

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 8:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I heard this stat prior to the end of the season

I often wonder what his hit spray chart was like – was it unlucky or was he consistantly hitting in the same areas. If he was hitting in the same areas then obviously the league had figured out how to play him.

Don't look back because we are going forward!

by Brush Back on Nov 14, 2008 9:07 PM CST up reply actions  

World Famous StatSpeak Roundtable: November 5
Question #4: The Mets have been linked with possibly going after Derek Lowe via free agency, or Javy Vazquez via a trade. I recently did work on Vazquez to find that one major reason his FIP is always better than his ERA is due to ALWAYS playing in front of pretty terrible defenses. The Mets have been one of the best defensive teams in the past few years. With that in mind, and Vazquez having a couple more seasons at 11.5 mil owed each year, would you go after him or opt to sign the aging Lowe to a potential 3-yr, 40 mil deal or whatever he will end up getting?

Jacob Wheatley-Schaller: I think going after Vazquez will be an excellent idea. One guy dominated over the last two months and then had a solid postseason; the other struggled in big games, and was called out by his manager. It seems like there would be more value in the Mets in going after Vazquez when he’s coming off a down year than going after Lowe, who had his lowest ERA since ’02.

Brian Cartwright: Vazquez looks attractive. He has good walk and strikeouts rates, and his high HRs should come down getting out of Chicago, one of the three easiest current parks to homer in. Put a good defense behind him, and yes, I could see at least a run coming off his ERA. And at 31, he’s 4 years younger than Lowe.

Colin Wyers: As a general rule, I’d rather spend money than give up prospects – you can get more money, prospects are harder to find. With the market the Mets are in, I’d try to sign Lowe first.

Eric Seidman: There are six players this decade with at least 190 GS, a K/9 above 8.0, and a BB/9 below 3.0: Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Jake Peavy, Josh Beckett, Pedro Martinez… and Javy Vazquez. Vazquez has, by far, the highest ERA of the group. He seems to have all of the tools to be an ace pitcher, but has never been able to put it together. Lowe will likely net a deal worth 13-14 mil per season for 2-3 years, while Vazquez is under contract until 2010 at 11.5 mil per year. Their statistics are pretty similar, except Lowe is much better at preventing home runs, which seems to be Javy’s achilles heel. Given that the Mets new park is supposedly more of a hitter’s park, and they will want to win right away since the Phillies just won the World Series, I wouldn’t be surprised if they sprung for Lowe, even though Javy is likely the better long-term option. Knowing the Mets, though, I wouldn’t be surprised if they landed BOTH.

Pizza Cutter: Vazquez has been a pretty stable 20-40-40 guy for LD-GB-FB, so we’re not talking about the type of guy who’s going to benefit from an amazing infield or an amazing outfield disproportionately. Lowe has been much more of an extreme GB pitcher and is less likely to issue a strikeout and to issue a walk, so he’d benefit from that infield defense quite a bit. The Mets have had good infield and outfield defense, although in the development of my OPA! system, I found that infield defensive performance is much more stable than outfield defense. But the thing is that Vazquez’s FIP and Lowe’s have been roughly equal (Lowe’s been a little bit better) over the past few years, and Vazquez is a little younger. In essence, Lowe has probably been the slightly better pitcher and would be in better shape to capitalize on the Mets defense, but Vazquez is probably the safer bet from the standpoint of age. The Mets have already gotten burned by signing over-the-hill former Red Sox pitchers to long contracts. This is a bit of a coin flip.

http://statspeak.net/2008/11/world-famous-statspeak-roundtable-november-5.html

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 7:08 PM CST reply actions  

Kanekoa Texeira, RHP
Jonathan Mayo: It doesn’t happen very often, but sometimes hidden gems can be found in a Draft. Texeira might be one of them.

The native Hawaiian was at Saddleback Junior College in California, but he wasn’t pitching much. But then-White Sox scout Danny Ontiveros saw something in him and invited him to a workout at Santa Ana College. He opened up many eyes then, throwing 88-92 mph with some serious life. The White Sox took him the 22nd round, and he’s been moving up the ranks since.

Using a three-quarter delivery, Texeira uses a fastball that explodes at the plate. Add that to a nasty slider, and it’s clear to see why he’s saved 37 games over his two full seasons of pro ball and has struck out more than a batter per inning in his career to go along with a 2.25 ERA. He’s allowed just 118 hits in 144 1/3 career innings, holding hitters to a .205 batting average combined in 2008, to go along with a 1.33 ERA. He had a 0.93 ERA in 36 outings with Winston-Salem in the Class A Advanced Carolina League before moving up to Double-A Birmingham and posting a 2.01 ERA in 15 games there.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081113&content_id=3679236&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 14, 2008 8:30 PM CST reply actions  

Sox Outright macdougal

40 man roster at 32. Probably already posted and means nothing

by comet922 on Nov 14, 2008 10:04 PM CST reply actions  

Steve pretty much summed up my feelings on the trade

I really cannot see the upside to this at all. Fucking stupid.

Alright now I have to go drive up to Janesville to pickup a kid to take him to see how he interacts with his drunk (yes he will be drunk at 10:00 AM) asshole father who is going to try to bitch to me about how its “his exes fault he has to deal with DCFS”. Should be great times…

by 815Sox on Nov 15, 2008 7:27 AM CST reply actions  

interesting if nothing else

but i’d imagine you get numb to it eventually?

"...fined for what, hittin' the ball into outer space?"

by Illini0509 on Nov 15, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

It is very interesting

And you sort of get numb, but it will always bother you when you are done for the day.

I love my job though and it is very rewarding

by 815Sox on Nov 15, 2008 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

jim's take

http://soxmachine.com/blogs/soxmachine/archive/2008/11/13/14403.aspx

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 15, 2008 2:52 PM CST reply actions  

is there an echo in here?

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 15, 2008 8:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Jim makes a lot of sense...

but he only has half of the equation.

In order for this trade to make sense, two things need to be true – (1) Swisher’s career is on the downhill slide, and he’s not bouncing back, and (2) the other 29 teams in the league either think Swisher is going to suck as well or have absolutely no use for Swisher, and this was literally the best possible deal Williams possibly could have gotten.

Otherwise, this deal makes no sense whatsoever. If Williams was in love with Betemit or Marquez, he could have gotten them for a lot less than Nick Swisher.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Nov 15, 2008 8:03 PM CST up reply actions  

I think Williams was in love with Betemit and Marquez

Thinks they’re going to be great and so paid accordingly. Plus I do think he thinks Swish will blow and didn’t want to be on the hook for $20M over the next 3(!) years. It wouldn’t be the first time Williams has overpaid for an obscure guy he thinks will be a breakout player.

by hitlesswonder on Nov 15, 2008 10:28 PM CST up reply actions  

that seems so unlikely

which is why i’m completely baffled by all of this.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Nov 16, 2008 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

it comes off as total panic, doesn't it?

the only logic under which it makes sense is the MSM’s, where Swisher is completely replaceable and, apparently, too wascally for its delicate sensibility. i feel like Kenny was shopping him and got a number of consecutive low ball offers that freaked him out or something. except that would be completely opposite of everything i think i know about Kenny. he’s ballsy, likes making challenge trades and generally has a very good sense of value in the marketplace.

nothing gets ‘em wetter than infrequent postings on the city’s second favorite team

by colintj on Nov 16, 2008 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Joe Sheehan
This is becoming a trend. For the third highly notable time in five months, a trade has happened in which one team has acquired a player who comes with some risk, with that risk being mitigated by the low price they paid for the player. Or, to exaggerate the point slightly, they got something for nothing. In July, the Cubs acquired Rich Harden for a price so low—three middling prospects and a 2007 draft pick failing in low-A ball—that they had to pull the trigger despite Harden’s sensitivity to light and air. Last week, the A’s paid a price for Matt Holliday that will make sense even if Holliday leaves at the end of next season, or even if he retires in mid-August.

Now the Yankees have acquired Nick Swisher while giving up nothing that they’ll miss: Jeff Marquez, a 24-year-old finesse pitcher who has yet to succeed at Triple-A; Wilson Betemit, a longtime stathead favorite with a .260/.325/.437 career line and a 314/98 K/BB ratio; and Jhonny Nunez, a 22-year-old right-hander who could eventually end up as a high-leverage reliever. Then again, Nunez was traded for Alberto Gonzalez—no, the other one—about 15 minutes ago, which speaks against the idea that he’s about to go all Carlos Marmol on the world. The package, in toto, is nothing; you can make a case for each of the players individually, but you can’t make the three of them add up to a switch-hitter with plate discipline, power, and his peak in front of him.

The White Sox can fit all three of these pieces in, but they’ve traded a five for three singles to do so. Betemit can play third base in a platoon situation, perhaps with Josh Fields, which would look a bit like a two-toned switch-hitting Jim Presley. Given the success they’ve had with John Danks and Gavin Floyd, I’m sure they look at Marquez and think “well, we’ll get him to cut everything” and make him a league-average starter. And Nunez has to look good to a team that was down to two effective relievers by season’s end. Of course, the White Sox put a Double-A arm into the deal as well, Kanekoa Texeira, more or less canceling Nunez’s presence. The problem is that you could add these kinds of parts without trading the player who, in the worst year of his life, was sixth on your team in OBP and projected to be second in 2008. Kenny Williams, who has made a long string of very good decisions, appears to have made a mistake here by trading low on an asset.

Swisher may not be the perfect solution to the Yankees’ offensive woes, but he brings upside, a plate approach that they missed last year, and positional flexibility that leaves a range of off-season options open to them. His lost 2008 season—.219/.332/.410, a career-low .259 EqA—was largely the product of a down year on balls in play. He hit .249 on them, after marks of .301 in 2007 and .283 in 2006. There was a slight uptick in his strikeout rate, but nothing alarming. What’s missing from his season are 15 singles and 15 doubles, and there’s not much reason to believe those won’t come back in 2009. When they do, his contract, which pays him $21 million through 2011 with a $10 million option for ’12, is going to look like an absolute bargain.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8311

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 16, 2008 2:49 PM CST reply actions  

Everything I read makes it sound worse and worse. I just will never get how this was the best we could do for a Nick Swisher.

by Grinder in Training on Nov 16, 2008 5:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Is there any way we can collectively forget this trade ever happened?

It is baffling and makes me want to puke. KW, what the hell were you thinking?!?!?

AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

/head explodes

this isn't hard. you live in a port city. and you're a slut. do the math. -larry

by rhythm on Nov 17, 2008 12:23 PM CST reply actions  

Dan Szymborski's Trasaction Oracle

2009 ZiPS Projection – Nickforth Swisher (CF)
—————————————————————————————————————-
              AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB BA OBP SLG OPS+
—————————————————————————————————————-
2009 498 85 126 26 1 24 86 83 137 1 .253 .366 .454 115
—————————————————————————————————————-
Top Comps: Don Lock, Chili Davis
 
 
2009 ZiPS Projection – Wilson Betemit (3B)
—————————————————————————————————————-
              AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB BA OBP SLG OPS+
—————————————————————————————————————-
2009 278 38 69 16 0 14 47 28 83 1 .248 .318 .457 99
—————————————————————————————————————-
Top Comps: John Hattig, Greg Norton
 
 
2009 ZiPS Projection – Jeff Marquez
————————————————————————————————-
            W L G GS IP H ER HR BB SO ERA ERA+
————————————————————————————————-
2009 6 13 21 21 114 143 80 21 47 43 6.32 73
————————————————————————————————-
Top Comps: Beltran Perez, Josh Rupe

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/yankees_acquired_swisher/

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Nov 29, 2008 2:54 PM CST reply actions  

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