Defense at 2B/3B

When a player moves to 2B from 3B, or vice versa, their defensive performance remains relatively stable. There’s just no data to support the idea that second base is a premium defensive position and third base is not.

While there are different skills necessary to succeed at each position (arm strength being more important at 3rd, range more important at second), the pool of players who can succeed at one is mostly made up of the same pool of players that can succeed at the other. This is because the population of both positions is made up almost exclusively of players who were deemed inadequate for shortstop. At one time, second baseman and third baseman were both called the same thing - bad defensive shortstops. From there, they were separated into 2B and 3B pools, but the evidence suggests that the crop of players who end up at 3B are better overall players than their 2B brethren. Why? I have a few theories, and we’ll get into those tomorrow.

6 months ago The Cheat Comment 94 comments 0 recs |

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Comments

Thought this was worthy of a read.

gets the travel column off the top of the page too.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 5:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

make something happen im bored

larry has that system down to a science. Especially with the way the economy is….big wigs like larry coming in dressed in their mink coats and 24k gold cigarrete holders with pockets lined with coke make for a large draw during shift changes.
by BobbySouthSide on Dec 9, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

by Jbasic89 on Dec 17, 2008 5:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We're about to lose the possibility of getting the 17th pick in next years draft

so we’ve got that going for us… which is not so good

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

so what are the other possible destinations for OC? Minny looks like the only unprotected pick team without a decent internal option...

by CWSKeith on Dec 17, 2008 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

NICKY PUNTO!!!

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you should consider a hobby.

by larry on Dec 17, 2008 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

seriously though

Is there something I’m supposed to be writing about right now? Something you’d like to read here?

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'd like to read an interview with chris getz here.

by larry on Dec 17, 2008 5:23 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs

too spicy

so colin keeps it under wraps

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2008 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i'm kinda getting the templeton vibe from this "interview"

by madvillian on Dec 17, 2008 6:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i would like to read why the cheat thinks the white sox should sell now on bobby jenks because he's about to fall of the proverbial performance cliff.

or, conversely, why the white sox should not trade bobby jenks. or whatever in between.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was writing that last night

But got distracted by Top Chef….

and by Top Chef, I mean German scat porn

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 18, 2008 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i would like to read why the cheat thinks mark buerhle's 2008 season was a return to pre-2006 dominance that should be expected to continue.

or, conversely, why his superb second half merely was a blip in an otherwise uninterrupted downward trend. or whatever in between.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 19, 2008 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What factors have an effect on runs scored at MLB Parks?

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2008/12/17/695875/what-factors-have-an-effec

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2008 5:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Heath Phillips a Royal

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081217&content_id=3720033&vkey=hotstove2008&fext=.jsp

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2008 5:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Phil Rogers +1

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there's some great stuff on this kind of thing

in Chapter 3.2 of ‘Baseball between the Numbers’ , and what stood out for me was that the numbers say that 3B is more important than CF. ‘Players who played both both 3rd and center (sic) were 4.4 runs better in centre (my spelling this time) than at third’.

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Dec 17, 2008 5:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

i think you're misinterpreting that.

Cashing checks and having sex.

by MarketMaker on Dec 18, 2008 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yes badly written

what I meant to say was that players can move from 3rd to centre whereas on the original spectrum centre is rated as a harder position to play.

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Dec 18, 2008 7:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bobby speaks

“This is the last time I have something to say on it, but I’ve dropped my velocity on purpose,” said Jenks, 27, during a phone interview from his home in a western suburb of Chicago. "If you don’t think this is true, look back when I was throwing more consistently harder at the end of this last season than at the beginning.

"Against Minnesota [in the American League Central tiebreaker], I was throwing 97-to-100 to get those last three outs. It’s not about velocity drops. It’s about getting outs. Anyone can time 100 mph if they see it enough.

“Basically, I sat down and discussed what would make me a better pitcher,” said Jenks of a conversation he had a few years ago with White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper. “We didn’t discuss velocity, but we talked about command and consistency with all of my pitches. My strikeouts are down, yes, but my pitch efficiency is higher than ever and my walks are down. I’m getting hitters swinging early in the counts, and when they get behind, I can put them away.”

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081217&content_id=3719879&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Dec 17, 2008 6:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

he does have a point I guess

number one when it mattered!

by hoodlight on Dec 17, 2008 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For most pitchers...

velocity drop + strikeout rate drop = big red flag.

Bobby Jenks might be the exception to the rule, but people are right to be leery. I remember they tried to claim that about Freddy Garcia a few years ago (that he was throwing slower on purpose), and a year later, it turned out that his shoulder was shredded.

Anything’s possible, and Jenks has learned to pitch (as opposed to throw) over the last couple of seasons, but it’s still something to keep an eye on.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 17, 2008 7:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus that injury last year

makes things more suspect

by 815Sox on Dec 17, 2008 7:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right.

Players and coaches tell us what they want us to hear. Nothing more, nothing less.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Dec 17, 2008 7:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe my boy Bobby.

by JoeCoolMan24 on Dec 17, 2008 7:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So basically....you're saying Che is doomed at SS?

...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.

by homesickalien on Dec 17, 2008 8:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

but not 3B

so we’ve got that going for us

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 8:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, we don't have many third basemen.

...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.

by homesickalien on Dec 17, 2008 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe after the Braves sign Furcal

they will give up Yunel Escobar for a cheap deal. The sox could have 3/4 of the infield dominated by cubans.

by airnjp on Dec 17, 2008 8:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

poor guy

he’s stuck in yesterday

must be hard

sit*

by U-God on Dec 17, 2008 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

who me?

or Yunel

by airnjp on Dec 17, 2008 8:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

all my troubles seemed so far away, now it looks as though they're here to stay

link

The winding road of free agency has led shortstop Rafael Furcal right back to the Dodgers.

A baseball official confirmed Wednesday that Furcal has reached agreement with the Dodgers on a three-year, $30 million contract with a vesting option for a fourth year. It is believed the deal is pending the passing of a physical exam.

I don’t want my beer to taste like fruit or honey. I want pussy to taste that way.

by thatshortkid on Dec 17, 2008 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

didn't the A's offer a guaranteed 4th?

Sober, I was appalled at the women. Drunk I was told I danced with them all.

by colintj on Dec 18, 2008 2:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, but he turned them down

i thought i read something, somewhere about playing for a squad he was familiar with, hence most talks being between dodgers and braves. not sure where i read it, though.

I don’t want my beer to taste like fruit or honey. I want pussy to taste that way.

by thatshortkid on Dec 18, 2008 2:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's probably not a good defensive SS

But he’s no longer a player I feel comfortable projecting (I have to say — he looked OK to me at 2B even though the metrics say he sucked). It’s worth a shot and we’ll see what happens…

by hitlesswonder on Dec 17, 2008 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Plus his original position was SS, not 2B

Perhaps there is something to that – if you are a good SS you ought to be able to play anywhere. If you are a good 2B you might not translate to SS (think Joe Morgan). I’m a little concerned, since Che is built more like Ryan Sandberg (who started as a SS, IIRC) than Morgan, and still looked at times absolutely clueless at 2B.

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 7:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well, if he can play 3B (having been a 2B) then he can obviously play CF!

See how easy it is on the internets?

""I’m for the dreamers. The only really important things in history have been started by the dreamers. They never know what can’t be done.""
Bill Veeck

by Chiburb on Dec 18, 2008 7:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I'm picturing Brooks Robinson, Ron Cey, (hell, even Ron Santo),

Bill Melton, etc. in CF. Is every position other than P and C now considered “fungible”? Just because Chipper Jones can make it, everyone can make it! (However, Chipper was a SS first.) Fer Chrissakes.

Maybe the REAL conclusion is that if you can play SS, you can play anywhere.

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not a square.

...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.

by homesickalien on Dec 18, 2008 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

(I am picking myself up off the floor. And inhaling deeply.)

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but he was never deemed a bad defensive shortstop in the first place

he was just being blocked by O-cab and it never said that a bad 2nd baseman makes a bad shortstop!

by Jbasic89 on Dec 17, 2008 8:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know, I was just being an ass - this is an ongoing discussion and most folks around here are worried about Che's fielding based on his performance at 2B last season.

I’ve been in the pro-Che camp the whole time, though…and think he’ll be fine at SS.
But I have posed the question and discussed this before – how the positions relate, and if performance at one gives any real indication of how performance will be at the other.

...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.

by homesickalien on Dec 18, 2008 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

3B are better than 2B?

what evidence is there of that?

by Hatchetm on Dec 17, 2008 8:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

major league splits for 3B vs. 2B for the last 20 years

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 17, 2008 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

small sample size fo sho

www.stallingtheman.blogspot.com

by Raf on Dec 17, 2008 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

small sample size fo sho

I don't need to look at fancy stats

to see if a guy is good or not. You might have to.

by Where Triples Go to Die on Nov 30, 2008 4:16 PM CST

by omnipotent grab on Dec 18, 2008 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

his sample size is as fo sho as Fields

that’s the sad part

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 18, 2008 1:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

pedestrian analysis

I don’t want my beer to taste like fruit or honey. I want pussy to taste that way.

by thatshortkid on Dec 17, 2008 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

just cuz they are bigger oafs

doesn’t make them better ballplayers

lajoie, collins, hornsby, gehringer, robinson, morgan, sandberg, alomar >>> schmidt, matthews, brett, boggs.

crede was an all-star last year which should tell you something.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 8:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that judging people using "all-star as criteria is stupid?

sit*

by U-God on Dec 18, 2008 8:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

win shares

utley 30
kinsler 26
pedroia 26
uggla 25
derosa 23

wright 29
arod 25
ramirez 25
jones 24
longoria 20

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 9:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

bad choice of stat for this argument

sit*

by U-God on Dec 18, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the whole idea is folly

guys who move back and forth from 2B to 3B are the ones that have the ability to do it. nearly all 2B could play 3B, not vice versa.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 10:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

nearly all 2B could play it defensively maybe

but a lot wouldn’t have the bat to play at third

sit*

by U-God on Dec 18, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

or the arm.

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

takes just as much arm

to turn a DP.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol. where do you come up with this stuff?

yup. just as much arm to throw 90 feet as it does to throw 127 feet.

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

using that logic

LF’ers have a stronger arm than SS

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no. that's using the same shitty logic you used above.

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

look, use some intelligence OK?

taking the feed from the SS, jumping in the air, twisting, and firing to 1B as some guy is kicking his cleats in your shins takes a strong arm. plenty of 2B make the career change to IF utility and they play 3B just fine. name all the guys that made the the 3B to 2B conversion because they didn’t have the arm for 3B.

how often does a brooks robinson throw from foul territory take place, like once/month?

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

but when he did, he got it there on the fly and in time to get the guy out

My Mom and Dad went to Oklahoma, and all they brought back for me was this signature.

by rhythm on Dec 19, 2008 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

offensive win shares

utley 23
kinsler 24
pedroia 19
uggla 20
derosa 18

wright 25
arod 21
ramirez 21
jones 22
longoria 15

not that big a difference. though your marginal 3B i’m sure posts better offensive numbers. they should move him to 2B if he can hack it.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just got home from bartending

and i wasted my time reading this post and gained no useful information…..

fo sho

I am going to ask you one time, and i'm gonna ask you nice. Where the fuck is Ringo bitch.

by ElDiablo on Dec 18, 2008 3:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

At least it didn't cost you anything, freeloader.

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 7:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

point well taken

I am going to ask you one time, and i'm gonna ask you nice. Where the fuck is Ringo bitch.

by ElDiablo on Dec 18, 2008 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's all fo sho...

""I’m for the dreamers. The only really important things in history have been started by the dreamers. They never know what can’t be done.""
Bill Veeck

by Chiburb on Dec 18, 2008 7:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

kind of interesting...

this stuff makes me hard.

I looked at the top 18 3B and 2B by innings played in 2008.

Where did these guys start their minor league careers?

looking at 3B >>>
14 started A-ball at 3B
3 at SS
1 in OF (mora)

looking at 2B>>>>
9 started at SS
5 started at 2B
3 started at 3B
2 were foreign imports.

So by in large, your starting 3B were 3B all throughout the minor leagues.
BUT half of the starting 2B originally started at SS…less than a third started as 2B.

i need to wipe my screen now.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 12:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

and 1/6 moved from third to second

sit*

by U-God on Dec 18, 2008 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Goddam Typo

sorry, should be 2 started at 3B. those were utley and uggla, so apparently you can do that if your name starts with u.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 12:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Uribe fits the name qualification (5 letters, too).

Eureka! He’s just been misused! Move him to 2B this instant!

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 1:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/more-2b3b-stuff/

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 18, 2008 2:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That's funny..

Even though I think that guy is full of shit, i think his conclusion is probably right. If a guy doesn’t have the the defense to play SS, he gets moved by how big he is. BUT there is a correllation between physical size and arm strength and range. So there is some logic there.

However, why bring this up when 14 of 18 starting 3B were always 3B from day one in the minors?

BTW even the offensive stats he cites are very comparable. Closer than even I had supposed. What was it, like .030 OPS points?

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

However, why bring this up when 14 of 18 starting 3B were always 3B from day one in the minors?

some of the guys you are counting were moved to 3B while in college or were SS in college and then moved to 3B right away in the pros. troy glaus, for example.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

True

but my impression was the guy was talking about professional ball. i mean, nearly every MLB’er was a SS at some time.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 2:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah. well college is slightly different than little league.

your analysis is misleading.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well, how bout you try an analysis

instead of complaining about mine.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you're going to get real far on here.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what's so misleading?

i told you exactly what I did. I don’t think i even made a point, just made an observation. I think the author was misleading when he said that 2B and 3B were exclusively failed SS. that’s a pretty broad generality.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you asked a question. i replied with why the premise of your question is not particularly accurate and why the author would bring that up despite your "observation".

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK, then explain why the author brought it up..

what does this fellow bring to the table as far as baseball knowledge goes? he asserts without proof that all 2B and 3B are failed SS. a man with limited intellect such as myself, a man without even a subscription to BP, questions his assertion with a very simple analysis. and you criticize me! how about question the guy who has wasted all of our time here by presenting as true something he has not show to be!

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i trust dave cameron's knowledge a hell of a lot more than yours.

how about that for a start.

you maybe need to realize that criticism isn’t bad. you know, without criticism, how are you going to refine your analysis. seems like you’re perfectly fine with criticizing someone else’s work but have a little bit of trouble taking it yourself. lighten the fuck up already.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

peace man

i don’t think so highly of myself that i need to have my own website to show off my baseball knowledge.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good lord.

yeah. it’s ego that causes people to put up such websites.

"They will surely make fewer home runs," Guillen said. "Defense players and worthy pitchers will likely take over the protagonist's role."

by larry on Dec 18, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This could be fun.

(Pops popcorn, sits back.)

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

would you stop

telling people you have the popcorn out? it keeps killing threads.

by coffeepac on Dec 18, 2008 7:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you could

I think the name “Sox Machine” is open

by Daniel Berlyn on Dec 18, 2008 7:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

another thing

i think said fellow is confusing the fact that all positions are close in defensive importance, not all positions are equally easy to play.

Also i came to the conclusion about 5 years ago that UZR was useless. I’m not sure if it has evolved since then.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-dual-2b3b-players/

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Dec 18, 2008 4:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

this is an interesting proposal

but difficult to prove. could troy glaus play 2B? ron cey? bill melton?

i tried to find some historical evidence of guys who made the switch mid-career, but in actuality there are very few that did. I’m not talking about your utility types…tony phillips, lenny harris, etc.

this are some guys I could find:
molitor
frisch
dykes
tony taylor
gilliam
garner
madlock (sort of)
oberkfell

of those 8, 6 moved from 2B to 3B. 2 vice versa (frisch, madlock). not sure what that shows.

by Hatchetm on Dec 18, 2008 8:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Means that 3B is similar to 1B.

Older, less mobile = banishment to a corner IF position. 3B if you are a Little Person, 1B if you are taller. Molly looks like the tallest one there, probably the most athletic (was a SS first). I didn’t realize 44% of his career was spent as a DH.

(“Sort of” with Madlock is being generous, BTW.)

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Dec 18, 2008 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs