Mark Buehrle vs. C.C Sabathia...what?
When C.C. Sabathia first accepted the offer to join the New York Yankees, I remember someone on ESPN saying that C.C's well on his way to the Hall of Fame. Well, that made me think some. Don't we have a southpaw that has put up some impressive numbers with his time in the league as well? Let's take a look at Mark Buehrle compared to C.C. Sabathia and just figure out who is indeed the better pitcher.
What kind of comparisons can be drawn from Buehrle and Sabathia from looking at both pitchers' stats? They are both coming off their eighth full season in the big leagues (Buehrle's ninth year...rookie reliever in 2000). Buehrle has started 14 more games than Sabathia and sports 5 more wins in his career as well as 14 more losses. Both ERAs are in the same ballpark with Sabathia's being slightly better. Looking at other stats, Buehrle looks better in some and Sabathia in other (for obvious reasons). Both of these lefties have put up double digits in the wins category every season as a full starter. Of course Sabathia dominates in the strikeouts category and hits given up as well, but I'll get into that later.
Mark Buehrle, as we all know, has never been one to blow a hitter away. He has always been the guy who can scatter 10 hits over 7 innings and give up only a run. Well, I can't say always because there are the times where he gets on a roll and gives up 4+ runs each time out. Burls has five pitches in his arsenal but only loses his slider sparingly. He mainly uses a fastball, cutter, and change while mixing in a curve. Looking at his fangraphs page, Buehrle relied on his cutter more than the change this year which goes against what he's done in past seasons. Apart from 2006, we pretty much know what we're getting from Mark Buehrle. In 2006, he sported a very unimpressing 4.99 ERA (some of which if I recall were bad luck streaks of hits falling, but for the most part he had a down year). Other than that little hiccup, his highest season ERA has been 4.14. Also, Mark has thrown no less than 204 innings every year since 2001. He's turning 30 this March, and I believe he can only improve on what he's already accomplished. In my opinion, he is the modern day Mike Mussina or perhaps even a lesser known Greg Maddux. If he can continue to take velocity off his pitches to create more movement, more success will be right around the corner. He's averaged roughly 15 wins a year in his career, so if you take that over say 12 more seasons that will put him at 302 wins for his career. This would be quite the accomplishment for a guy that was cut from his high school team at one point.
C.C. Sabathia, on the other hand, is more of a power pitcher. He can dial it up in the upper 90s and get a key strikeout if needed. Sabathia is essentially a 3 pitch pitcher, using a fastball, slider and change. This year he used a curveball .1% of the time, according to his fangraphs page. Taking a look at his track record, he is essentially in the same ballpark with Buehrle in every category. Is he really worth the amount of money he was given? Yes, no, maybe? Sure, he dominated the National League circuit in his short time there this year, but can he bring that dominance back to the AL? He was Mark Buehrle with more strikeouts in his time with the Indians in 2008. C.C. has thrown close to 500 innings the past two seasons as he's entered his prime. Like Buehrle, I believe he can only get better with time. In my opinion, he now has everything going in his favor with today's signing of Mark Teixeira. A huge offense with the likes of A-Rod, Tex, and Nick Swisher (hahahahha) what isn't to love? Barring any injury setbacks, he should average about 235-250 innings and 18 wins over his next few years before he hits a small wall and has to learn how to drop velocity to get more movement like Buehrle. He will be 29 next year and say he averages the same amount of wins Mark does over 13 more seasons; C.C. will be over 310 wins. Let's just say when it's all said and done, Sabathia should have a win for every pound he weighs.
So, who in fact is the better pitcher. To be completely honest, I would say they are even. That's my opinion and from what I've seen, I would take either one of them to throw a game with the season hanging in the balance. Sabathia has the clear edge in head to head battles (couldn't find the stats but at the start of the 2008 year...Buehrle was 0-2 with a touch below 7 ERA in his last 4 starts against him). Buehrle's got the great fielding ability and pickoff move and C.C. has the firepower to get that much needed strikeout with ducks on the pond and nobody out. I will project C.C.'s ERA to take a jump this year with him being in the AL East. Here are my projections for both of them this upcoming season.
Mark Buehrle---(18-12) 34 GS, 229 IP, 3.71 ERA, 5 CG, 1 shutout
C.C. Sabathia---(19-11) 35 GS, 244 IP, 3.63 ERA, 8 CG, 2 shutouts
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eh he retired last month the old geezer is history lolz
takes some real stones for the one certifiable cocksucker on here to jump into this convo.-mm
I accidentally voted for CC...not accidentally, per se, but just because I think the team behind him will aide his numbers.
But my heart is always with Buehrls.
MB is the only guy I want on the mound in the big games. (You know, right after Horacio, of course).
...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.
you are welcome and call him by his proper name, Ho-Ram
takes some real stones for the one certifiable cocksucker on here to jump into this convo.-mm
Sabathia passed Buehrle as the better pitcher a few years ago
and he keeps getting better with each year
i'm not going to check myself
but i’m sure you’d do better to check RA rather than ERA. i mean we all agree errors are crap right? so why do we let pitchers off the hook for them? RA, then adjust for defense.
if i was going to do this, i’d do side-by-side comparisons of GB%, K rate, BB rate, BABIP and some extra base hit rate stat*, keeping OF defense in mind. and since UZR runs from ‘02 to ’08, you could do a pretty easy comparison of team defense (b-r most common lineups, then hoof it to fangraphs). basically, you’d be looking to see if Buehrle’s lack of K’s could be made up by his other skills. it’s too bad we can’t do historic comparables by stuff yet (pf/x having debuted in ‘07…), but i’d also check out b-r for top 10 by age comps to see how those guys aged. i’d also do a macro-look, with year-by-year RAR breakdown.
like [(2b+3b)+ 2HR]/batters faced…the difference between a double and a triple is batter/baserunner, defense, and luck; also, i’d probably be able to find the actual difference in lwts between a double and a home run and use that for the weight rather than 2**
**i wish i could do DFW style footnotes on SSS
Sober, I was appalled at the women. Drunk I was told I danced with them all.
"if i was going to do this..."
you’re really something else you know that?
Cashing checks and having sex.
(he's doing it right now)
...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.
by homesickalien on Dec 23, 2008 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
i started off wanting to give some gentle criticism
and then i just got to thinking about it. but yeah, everyone thinks i’m weird. nothing new there.
Sober, I was appalled at the women. Drunk I was told I danced with them all.
Not to speak for MM
But I think he was cracking on the associate editor ethos than anything else.
Or, in other words, whoosh.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
by Sox Machine on Dec 24, 2008 12:18 AM CST up reply actions
no i got that
just wanted to explain how it happened.
Sober, I was appalled at the women. Drunk I was told I danced with them all.
also, i think post xmas i'll finally get around to My Chat With Chris
this semester went horribly by any definition, to the point where it was impacting my ability to function outside of school. needless to say, that pushed back my progress on the getz interview.
Sober, I was appalled at the women. Drunk I was told I danced with them all.
Pull this leg, and it plays "Jingle Bells".
I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT
by winningugly on Dec 24, 2008 7:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
nice.
...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.
by homesickalien on Dec 24, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
didn't push back your progress on reading the HBT annual, though.
by larry on Dec 24, 2008 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You are going to make a greatt Dad.
Your kid will be the subject matter for the sequel to “Fear Strikes Out”. I’ll audition for the larry/Karl Malden role myself – first in line.
I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT
by winningugly on Dec 24, 2008 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
It's going to have things like...
“I think Javier Vazquez can bounce back and have a great year for us.”
“Swisher brings great energy to the clubhouse, and I look forward to playing next to him this year.”
“I liked Tucson well enough, and I’m OK if we stay there.”
“I sure don’t like Cubans, so we better not have more than two.”
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
by Sox Machine on Dec 24, 2008 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
amazing.
...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.
by homesickalien on Dec 24, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions
yeahhh...as fun as that sounds
furbs doesn’t have the patience to pull off something like that…so if you want to go for it lolz
takes some real stones for the one certifiable cocksucker on here to jump into this convo.-mm
hey man you spent 903 words already
i figured you might be interested.
Sober, I was appalled at the women. Drunk I was told I danced with them all.
yeah...i might look into it...i'm just really lazy
that’s all lolz….it sounds like it’d be a better way to look at the whole thing though
takes some real stones for the one certifiable cocksucker on here to jump into this convo.-mm
I love Mark Buehrle!
I’d rather have CC on my team. I didn’t need one second to think about it.
Are you taking CC with his contract? I’ll take MB and his contract vs. CC and his (assuming I’m not the Yankees and salary’s matter).
by Grinder in Training on Dec 23, 2008 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
I would rather have CC NOW
And for the next 2-3 years, but overall, Buehrle I think will have a longer career. CC’s weight, and high velocity arm will catch up to him, while Buehrle is ahead of the curve by not excerting (sp?) his body physically, and thus lasting into his early 40’s with success.
Are you on crack?
Look I love Mark Buerhle and I think he’s nationally underrated, primarily because he has played his whole career in a hitter’s park. But come on he’s not in Sabathia’s class. Yes, their career ERA+ is similar.
However, over the last 3 years CC has raised himself to another category. ERA+ last 3 years 140, 143, 162. Buerhle 95, 131, 121. CC has been dominant. Buerhle has been his typical very good self.
And yes, Buehrle is typically underrated by projection systems because of his peripheral stats, but strikeouts matter when projecting/comparing pitchers.
I like Mark Buerhle better than CC Sabathia because he plays for my team, but if you’re suggesting Mark Buerhle is a more valuable pitcher than CC I think you’re smoking something.
larrys fortune cookie: you will learn much and have the advantage of not reading my pompous responses.
I think he is more or less saying
That they are very similar, and not suggesting that Buehrle is better.
by JoeCoolMan24 on Dec 24, 2008 2:01 AM CST up reply actions
Buehrle :: Sabathia = Maddux :: Clemens
In both cases, the latter pitcher is better.
Sabathia and Maddux
virtually the antithesis of each other in every possible way
by Daniel Berlyn on Dec 24, 2008 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
That's what he is saying.
Clemens = Sabathia
Buehrle = Maddux
by Grinder in Training on Dec 24, 2008 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Maddux and Clemens aren't different to that degree
Sabathia has truly become a great pitcher though. Though I doubt he touches Santana’s prime, which has been somewhat forgotten in his wake.
by Daniel Berlyn on Dec 24, 2008 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
i hope you are right and mb wins 18 games this season…
yanks, what a funny team. overall yanks and red sox to me are two fat kids born to a very wealthy parents that get what they want but not what they deserve, and only life being so random and unpredictable is what enables punks like rays to irritate them and defeat them once in a while.
It took you how many days to publish this?
I could have banged this out in 10 minutes on the shitter if I chose to… problem is, it is like comparing apples and oranges.
So, if I am reading the two options correctly . . .
we can either a) keep dye or b) trade dye . . . is that you Phil Rogers?
by jc2313 on Dec 11, 2008 4:53 PM CST up reply recommended Unrec 1
by Where Triples Go to Die on Dec 26, 2008 4:29 PM CST reply actions
I believe you just volunteered yourself for the next Fanpost! Can't wait to read it!
...and then some depressed fucked-cake eating.
by homesickalien on Dec 26, 2008 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
-1
for the wait and the subject.
So, if I am reading the two options correctly . . .
we can either a) keep dye or b) trade dye . . . is that you Phil Rogers?
by jc2313 on Dec 11, 2008 4:53 PM CST up reply recommended Unrec 1
by Where Triples Go to Die on Dec 26, 2008 4:30 PM CST reply actions

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