Owens and Cabrera are Pods and Erstad repackaged

by The Cheat on Mar 1, 2008 2:08 AM CST in White Sox News

Darin Erstad's 2001-2006 line	.272/.324/.373
Scott Podsednik's 2003-2006 line	.276/.342/.378
Orlando Cabrera's Career batting line	.273/.321/.403
Jerry Owens' minor league line	.295/.362/.368
Jerry Owens' AAA line	.270/.341/.353
Jerry Owens' major league line	.268/.324/.315

11 months ago, Scott Merkin wrote my favorite single line (lie?) about the 2007 season; "With Scott Podsednik and Darin Erstad physically ready for the start of the 2007 regular season, the White Sox have two fleet-footed, adept handlers of the bat sitting at the top of their potent offensive attack." I don't even think I need to point out how many ways that line came back to bite the Sox.

On that very same day, I was finally coming to the realization that the Sox weren't going to be a good team. It shouldn't have taken that long, but I liked the way Williams constructed the bullpen and thought (naively) that Erstad was brought on to be a 4th outfielder. I was blinded by hope and the belief that things would work themselves out in spring training.

After the debacle of last season, I vowed that I wouldn't sit around and wait to see how things worked out in spring to speak up. It's 2 AM Saturday morning, so I'll just let the headline and accompanying chart speak for me.

Ozzie is at it again.

"If you look at our lineup and (Owens) is the first hitter, our lineup is going to be a lot better," Guillen said. "That's our expectation. We'll give (him) the shot to play every day and hopefully he can grab it and keep it and we don't have to worry anymore about a $100 million player.

"We're going to give this kid a shot and hopefully he looks good."

Discuss among yourselves.

***** In other news, (wizard)

Jim's Game 3 videos: Buehrle, Owens vs. Quentin, Recap.
Sickels "Gut Feeling" 2008 Lasting Milledge projection: .315/.363/.478.
Jonathan Hale looks at hitters and pitcher performances in cold weather. The study was commissioned by the Greg Walker foundation!
Joe Sheehan: Locational Run Values (hat-tip Tango).

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Comments

I don't get it either

Ozzie blathers on and on about OBP, but Cabrera is completely locked in at the #2 position because he can "handle the bat" - whoop-de-do. With his career stat line he should be batting 8th or 9th in the order, but of course that'll never happen. And now he looks like he's completely locked into Jerry Owens batting leadoff. 25% of our PAs are going to go to these two knuckleheads, while Swisher gets shoved down to #6 in the order.

If he didn't learn after the Pods/Erstad disaster last year, he's never gonna learn. This org is doing a lot of things to make it very easy to dislike them. I think I'm gonna start rooting for the Reds when I move to Indy.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Mar 1, 2008 6:25 AM CST reply actions

Out of the frying pan

and into the fire, eh Pete?

by BustedFlush on Mar 1, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions

Based upon your political discourse

I think the Reds would be appropriate.

;)

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 1, 2008 2:34 PM CST up reply actions

The Reds, those commie bastards

What's really getting me about the Sox is this organizational arrogance, the belief that they've got this baseball thing figured out and Ozzieball is the only way to go. So everyone else is an idiot, we're gonna do it our way and show you all. And we're going to keep doing it no matter what experience tells us, because those bad outcomes were just anomalies and a perfect storm.

Winning the WS was both the best thing and the worst thing that could have happened to this team. This season is shaping up like a worst case scenario - a bad season after you completely blew up the minors to bet everything on this season, then stuck with an aging roster of untradeable declining vets with a massive $120mm payroll and no future.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Mar 2, 2008 6:25 AM CST up reply actions

I agree with your attitude evaluation

but not the conclusion that is was the WS that hardened their attitude - I think Ozzie and KW are built like that, as are most athletes (think Clemens before Congress and LaRussa, who STILL maintains McGwire was clean). I'm right, and you can't tell/show me differently.

Similar to many people in leasership positions (yeah, politics, too). The focus they needed to get to the top (and perhaps stay there) can be a double-edged sword, especially when their ways ain't working any more.

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 2, 2008 9:47 AM CST up reply actions

It's not the worst character trait to have

You certainly need confidence to succeed in sports. But what they've been doing the last two years is unnecessarily reckless, and seems motivated by a desire to just to prove the point that they've found the one true way to win at baseball.

Ozzie always talks about his admiration for how the Twins play. The Twins play the way they do because they value young talent, and they develop and teach that young talent. The only lesson the Sox seem to have taken from the Twins is that just playing hard and grinderball is the key to success, instead of looking at what underpins that success - which is an emphasis throughout the minor league system of learning how to play the game properly. IMO it's really damning that these not-so-young prospects for the Sox are woefully lacking in the basic fundamentals of the game.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Mar 2, 2008 10:25 AM CST up reply actions

That said

you should still prefer Ozzie/KW to Dusty/Krivsky.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions

Hey, Dusty is a winner

A real gamer, a baseball lifer.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Mar 2, 2008 6:27 AM CST up reply actions

The Defensive Spectrum

Reconsider and repeat.

Pierzynski - Cabrera - (2B winner) - Owens - Fields - Dye - Swisher - Konerko - Thome

is greater than

Pierzynski - Uribe - (Richar/Cintron) - Erstad - Fields - Dye - Podsednik - Konerko - Thome

by BlackBetsy on Mar 1, 2008 6:38 AM CST reply actions

I can deal with Cabrera...

He isn't taking up an OF slot.

Playing Owens in LF everyday is so boneheaded...but not unexpected. As Cheat said, the Sox are predictable. It irks me to see a move I liked (trading for Quentin) nullified. I hoped he would be more than Dye-injury insurance.

by hitlesswonder on Mar 1, 2008 9:14 AM CST reply actions

Something to remember -

Lousy peripherals or not, the Sox won with Pods in the lineup. It may be an anomaly, but their wins significantly outnumbered their losses when he started and led off.

If it's because of something unquantifiable (luck, God's plan, etc.) then perhaps it can't be replicated. Maybe it has something to do with "speed" at the top. I'm less inclined to feel comfy with JO leading off but am not willing to completely diss the JO/OC tandem before the season starts. I'd find it hard to believe this year's top of the order will be as bad as last year's.

This song I wrote after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 1, 2008 9:56 AM CST reply actions

I like Cabrera

Taking his most recent seasons into account, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a ~90 OPS+, even though all projection systems would call that optimistic. And for the past three seasons his defense has provided at least two wins alone, with three wins in 2007. That is an acceptable player for a team with playoff expectations.

But with the uncertainty in our pitching staff, we need all the offense we can get. Unless the magic of 2005 returns to our starters, how can we compete with Owens playing a position where he will miss the average offensive production by over 100 OPS points.

by 3E8 on Mar 1, 2008 9:57 AM CST reply actions

Ozzies words.

".........our expectation.........
..........hopefully...............
.... .....hopefully he looks good."

$120 million lineup banking on dreams.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 1, 2008 10:36 AM CST reply actions

ozuna handles the bat well, too

Here's the White Sox's lineup Saturday against Arizona at Tucson Electric Park:

Owens cf

Ozuna 2b

Swisher 1b

Konerko dh

Dye rf

Crede 3b

Ramirez ss

Anderson lf

Lucy c

Floyd p

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 11:01 AM CST reply actions

How long before Richar finds himself in a lineup?

Or has he visa'd his way out of that this season?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Mar 1, 2008 11:04 AM CST up reply actions

sunday sounds right for a start

first day of split squad action. i wouldn't be surprised to see him today.

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions

by the way

considering i was bashing AJ's defense yesterday, i suppose i should point out that jim says he was the one who caught young straying too far.

http://soxmachine.com/blogs/soxmachine/archive/2008/03/01/12012.aspx#comments

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 11:04 AM CST reply actions

Ozzie needs to realize that...

there's a reason Owens will never be a $100 million dollar player like Torii Hunter. He has no other tools but speed. Hunter isn't a HoF'er and isn't really worth the contract he signed but he is much more of a CF'er than Owens ever will be.

Anyways, this Owens/Quentin situation seem a lot like last spring's CF "competition" between Erstad and Anderson. I was thinking about rooting for Owens to suck this spring but I realize that it won't matter. Even if Quentin hits 6 homers this ST, he will probably still be riding the pine.

Is it bad that we probably have to root for Owens to get injured for Quentin to get the starting job?

by SSH2005 on Mar 1, 2008 11:10 AM CST reply actions

Oh c'mon man ease up on the guy!

He shows EFFORT! And we all know that's the only thing that matters.

I predict that he will steal 106 bases this year, including home 4 times!

I mean really, I already have Contreras winning 40, why the hell not???

White Sox will finish 128-34.

If I'm wrong I'll buy drinks... for myself.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Mar 1, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

daily 'who's injured let's trade to them'report

reds SS alex gonzalez fractured his knee. they've got keppinger but he may be more effective in a "super-utility" role.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2008/02/29/gonzalez.knee .ap/index.html?eref=si_mlb

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 11:43 AM CST reply actions

It's starting to look like we may be able to...

trade Uribe just yet. Then, the 2B competition would be between just Richar and Ramirez with the loser going to AAA. With 12 pitchers, the last bench spot would then be between Anderson and Bourgeois. I would like that a lot.

by SSH2005 on Mar 1, 2008 12:03 PM CST up reply actions

Owens

ugh, he's going to be frustrating this season. It's too bad, I have no reason to dislike him, but I will because he'll be used incorrectly by Ozzie.

MrROFL.com

by shaftr on Mar 1, 2008 12:41 PM CST reply actions

I know last year I said I'd petition

and did nothing, but two years in a row of this bullshit should be enough. I'm still not convinced it will come to pass, but holy shit it better not. Why give up our best position prospect for a benchwarmer? How does that begin to make sense?

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 12:57 PM CST reply actions

just a question

how much better would an outfield of quentin, owens/anderson platoon, and swisher be? or, for you win now types, dye, owens/anderson platoon, and swisher? seems like KW had a rather disjointed approach to the outfield, starting with the extension to dye. one of the three transactions seems to have been unnecessary.

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 1:04 PM CST up reply actions

My hierarchy for those transactions

would list JD's extension at the top.

But, again, Ozzie likes vets and JR likes to reward loyalty and results. JD will always be the 2005 WS MVP and JR will never forget it.

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 1, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions

i don't know...i'm looking at this

from the perspective of a fan who wants to see good players on the field.

but Owens/Anderson is probably replacement level, Quentin is probably a 5-10 VORP, Swisher a 25-30, and Dye like 15-20? I don't know how to translate that to runs or wins, but in terms of quality, I can watch the latter trio and feel like real baseball players on are on my team.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions

actually, i think everything i've said

for the past however many days i've been talking about fielding a better team, i've been speaking from the perspective of someone who wants real baseball players on his team.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 2:30 PM CST up reply actions

All I see is a bunch of a speculation

I am not an Owens fan and really don't think there is much chance he can make this great improvement he displayed in Sept. That said I will at least give the guy a chance before I start bitching. I get the feeling for some of you that there is nothing that he could do to please you. If he got on base at a .375-.380 clip you still would be mad.

To me its really not worth all this chatter, no matter what Ozzie says. Why? Because unlike last year, the White Sox have other options. Yes there is Owens, but there is also Cab and there is Swish and Quentin. If it doesnt work. Change it. Something tells me in any scenario you won't be a month in the season with the same worthless crap over and over again. In essence we can speculate all we want but it will probably be hard for even Ozzie to get in his own way.

If Owens is leading off 3 months from now and Quentin is getting less playing time, it won't be because Owens is stinking and Ozzie refuses to change.

This team will score plenty of runs this year. Chill.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 2:37 PM CST reply actions

If he got on base at a .375-.380 clip

we would be mad? That goes against pretty much everything Cheat has written/overseen on this site since I first started reading.

Besides, you could at least put your hypotheticals in a plausible context.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 2:40 PM CST up reply actions

I never said Cheat or named anyone in particular

And as I already said I have little faith he will do anything, but this is spring training. If Owens does the improbable I won't be a hypoctrite and say ignore it.

My point is whatever the decision, its not like the Sox are locked into some solid uncorrectable mistake.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 2:53 PM CST up reply actions

Moreover

according to PECOTA, his weighted mean is below replacement level. That means we're choosing to commit to someone who is essentially worse that freely available talent. This isn't the sort of player you give opportunities to. He's a "oh shit we lost our starting CF" plug-and-play.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 2:43 PM CST up reply actions

Why the hell are you putting so much stock

In what Ozzie is saying right now? He changes his mind all the time.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 2:58 PM CST up reply actions

Have you witnessed the

Pods-love and Erstad-love for the past 2 seasons?

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 1, 2008 3:02 PM CST up reply actions

We all know enough to discern between

the crap that Ozzie says and the crap that Ozzie means.

Owens has the 3rd outfield/leadoff spot wrapped up. And we wouldn't be against that if that's how the competition ended up, with Owens posting a .400 ST OBP and Quentin struggling to get fully healthy. But it appears as if Ozzie, just like last season, has his mind made up on day 1 of spring training, going with the same type of player. Why should we believe it to work out any differently?

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Mar 1, 2008 3:11 PM CST up reply actions

But Ozzie said

He was going to field the best team... his mind wouldn't be made up about Erst.. I mean Owens already.

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 1, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

You might be correct Cheat

but in the end it really won't matter. If he does start and suck (like he probably will), the Sox will move on. If he doesnt suck and some of the WU magic above gets the team off to a good start, it gives Quentin time to get healthier and eventually contribute.

I realize the detour may be frustrating but the comparsion to the previous season is a little inaccurate because it pretty much lasted the WHOLE season.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions

if he does suck, they'll move on, huh

not sure i buy that one. they've gift-wrapped this guy a roster spot - i'll leave the speculation regarding whether he'll be named a starter but we know he's on the opening day roster - based upon what? a 100 PAs in september? what a joke. the question should not be whether he's starting. the question should be whether he's even on the roster. the sox are invested in this guy, for reasons that befuddle me. this is the sort of stuff that makes a team lose 72 games.

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 4:37 PM CST up reply actions

Here's the problem

If he does start and suck (like he probably will), the Sox will move on.

I'm pretty certain my definition of "suck" is going to differ from Ozzie's. If Owens is hitting .290 accompanied with a .330 OBP, do you really think Ozzie is going to bench him? I'd guess not. It's scary to think that Owens has a not-out-of-this-world chance at hitting .300 and STILL be a well below-average baseball player. But people would point to the .300 batting average and the gobs of stolen bases, while ignoring the .330 OBP and the .340 SLG%.

We're not even a month into spring training and I'm already having depressing thoughts. Bah.

by CWSKeith on Mar 1, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions

Lets suppose that is true CWS.

And suppose their record is 15-11. Do you think I give a rat's ass? Quentin is the more talented player. He will get his time and take the job. He won't get buried and receive little playing time.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 5:02 PM CST up reply actions

what does the record have to do with anything

if a player is playing shitty, they shouldn't be playing - no matter if the team is undefeated or winless or anywhere in between.

the rest of it...obviously the rest of us would love to be as confident as you are in your "will" and "won't" assertions.

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 5:07 PM CST up reply actions

LOL

The record was in regards to earlier post. Sorry the connection wasnt clear. IMO, (as I should clarify),it will not matter.

Sorry Im not riled up. The Sox season doesnt depend on JO. They'll score plenty of runs. Im worried about 3-5. Continue to vent at your pleasure.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions

That statement doesn't make sense

The Sox season doesnt depend on JO.

You can insert just about any player in at the end of that sentence. Of course the Sox season doesn't rely on Jerry Owens. You're missing the point, though. The Sox are forfeiting at-bats to a clearly superior player. The Sox are saying there's an "open competition" when all signs are pointing to the decision-makers already have their mind made up.

Moreover, it shows that this organization still doesn't "get it". Competition for roster spots should be for 24th and 25th man type spots and maybe fifth-starter spots, not starting OF spots. What is 50 at-bats in Arizona going to show anyone? When healthy, Carlos Quentin should be somewhere in Chicago's outfield. Yet everything that's being said is pointing to, at the very least, a left-field platoon.

There's so much wrong with what's going on here. Jerry Owens is a terrible baseball player yet incompetent management has him on the fast-track to being a starting outfielder for our major-league club. It's sickening.

by CWSKeith on Mar 1, 2008 7:30 PM CST up reply actions

Did I not say Carlos Quentin is a better player

Than JO? Im not getting into an argument or going to be painted as someone advocating him starting. Why is that so hard to understand.

I get it. You take Ozzie at his word. You think Owens will take a great deal of abs from better players.

I think the team has better options and that will win out. The Erstad and Pods example played out longer because BA sucked (I love him but he didnt do much). Thus my statement that it may be harder for Ozzie to get in his own way.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 8:27 PM CST up reply actions

i'm not getting on your case

in fact, in this battle i mostly agree with you.

but i think where a lot of people are coming from with the "management has made up their mind, no matter what" can be clearly demonstrated in at least one instance by last year's ST CF "competition". management said "the players will compete for CF", BA mashed and showed keen defense (see previous "BA == AZ All-star"), yet Erstad started in CF and BA went to AAA. the rest is history.

i agree, there are a lot of OF options at the sox' disposal and the best man should win. however, management has shown before that they toss out the numbers/analysis we go by and go in a different direction altogether. the predictions about who management is going to go with comes from the only things we have to go on: their selections of players' playing time, their statements to the media, and previous behavior. lately, the statements have been all on JO's jock. so now the assumptions by many on the outside of the sox' front office have been that JO is going to get the starting job on Opening Day, come hell or high water. whether that's going to come to fruition or not we won't know until then.

i'm of the opinion that speculating on the OD roster and who should/shouldn't be on it 4 games into ST is pretty much pissing into the wind. and there's a lot of folks on SSS typing posts with wet hands. passes the time, though.

by thatshortkid on Mar 1, 2008 9:01 PM CST up reply actions

Bullshit...

Podthetic sucked since his decent 2005 season and the Sox kept giving him chances even though he kept getting injured and needed to be sent to the glue factory. Jesse Owens will be no different. Stop sugarcoating the situation. No one is buying it.

by SSH2005 on Mar 1, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah I forgot

Erstad and Pods were guaranteed to be starting in the OF this year. That was such a "known" fact. Gimme a break.

I notice that when I bring up different possible events on this board that I am always "sugarcoating" things. Excuse the hell out of me I didnt realize everyone's brutal truth is always right.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 8:38 PM CST up reply actions

the mere fact he gets to compete for a job

means that the Sox brass doesn't understand what he actually is.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 3:22 PM CST up reply actions

Im confused

So what do you suggest don't let him compete? Cmon dude. Managers don't operate that way. Now he definitely could already have his preconceived notions and I suppose that is what can be your complaint but, "shouldnt be allowed to compete?"

What are you a communist? :-)

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 3:36 PM CST up reply actions

I agree he has to compete

Its all the comments that seemingly have already given the job that irks me. If he proves he is the best to start, then good, but lets not start making that declaration only a few appearences into ST.

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 1, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions

What has he done to show he deserves it?

I'm not saying you talk him down and shit on him. But he should be back in AAA until someone goes down, but we don't have enough OF, so he should be our 4th OF without any chance past that. His defense is below par and offensively, you have to get to his 75th percentile to get him a positive VORP, at 3.4. He just doesn't belong.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 3:56 PM CST up reply actions

Huh?

His Sept says he deserves a chance. His defensive value is debatable. Again I am not driving a Jerry Owens bus. Not going to do it. But get real. People don't look at a PECOTA card read his 75th percentile is X and say, "nope its most assured I will not let this guy compete."

The same way the 2005 White Sox didnt read their PECOTA projection and pack in the season.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 4:16 PM CST up reply actions

comparing JO to the 2005 WS is a big red herring

why I bring up PECOTA's high end projections (yesterday I told you his 90th percentile) is because they illustrate the low ceiling that caps his potential. that should be obvious.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 4:38 PM CST up reply actions

tdogg should know better than that

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions

I know its a ridiculous comparsion

Just making the case of projections and on paper. Players and teams do have to lace them up....

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 4:53 PM CST up reply actions

and when they do

they rarely exceed expectations to the level owens would have to in order to be worth anything. you don't have to stick up for every shitty player the sox have. sometimes they are just shit.

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 4:56 PM CST up reply actions

I dont give a damn about Jerry Owens

My point is it won't matter. Just like I didnt give a shit about Aardsma or Masset.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 5:06 PM CST up reply actions

the guy slated to get

the most plate appearances on the team is being equated to a couple relievers. if you say so.

by larry on Mar 1, 2008 5:09 PM CST up reply actions

If you say so Larry

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 5:16 PM CST up reply actions

The "leadoff hitter" position receives

the most AB's, obviously. Both Ozzie and Kenny have some serious man-love for Owens. All signs point to Owens being in line for the most AB's of any player on our team since he will be batting first. Larry is right and you are wrong. Just accept it and move on with your life.

by SSH2005 on Mar 1, 2008 8:07 PM CST up reply actions

The Arbiter strikes again!

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 10:58 PM CST up reply actions

that isn't the point you keep trying to make.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 6:26 PM CST up reply actions

Sticking up for every stupid move...

that Ozzie, Kenny, or the White Sox in general make is the WSI homer way.

by SSH2005 on Mar 1, 2008 8:00 PM CST up reply actions

I think I heard you the first 8 times you said it

So whats stupid is you repeating the same thing. I am not and have not defended starting J Owens. I want Quentin to play and if you can read, this is obvious.

The only debatable point is how long and how much damage Owens does. I think very little. I think the lease will be shorter, etc. You think differently. That is your right.

If you want to spend time on the board bitching about something that hasnt played out, knock yourself the fuck out.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 8:17 PM CST up reply actions

I will make an exception

to say that we don't have an absolute grasp on how healthy Carlos Quentin is and that's obviously a big factor. So I'll try to rein in my rage a smidge.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions

Here's a question... re BA

What if he does show he deserves the starting call - predictions on were Oz puts him? Does he stay in LF, or does Oz keep him in left and Swish in center? To me its obvious where he should play, but sometimes the obvious is not what Oz does.

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 1, 2008 3:57 PM CST reply actions

If only

Sweet triple though

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 1, 2008 4:04 PM CST up reply actions

I just want him on the team

IMO they need him and if he is mature now thats all the better.

"There is not a liberal America and a conservative America. There is the United States of America."

by Tdogg on Mar 1, 2008 4:23 PM CST up reply actions

Are they that much better based on major league AB

based on actually Major league at bats it doesn't seem like Brian Anderson or Carlos Quintin deserve much more of a shot than Jerry Owens. And for the record I'm hoping for a
Swisher,Anderson/Quintin,Dye OF.

CQcareer
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS +1Base
138 395 52 91 29 3 14 63 33 88 3 2
OBP SLG AVG
.316 .425 .230

Ba 2006
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS -3Bases
134 365 46 82 23 1 8 33 30 90 4 7
OBP SLG AVG
.290 .359 .225

JO career
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS +25Bases
105 365 48 98 10 2 1 17 27 65 33 8
OBP SLG AVG
.324 .315 .268

+/-Bases is considering SB as extra doubles so
the adjusted double count is
CQ 2B 30
BA 2B 20
JO 2B 35

I'm not saying he's great but it could be argued that he's at least as good (right now) as his competition.
Start your bashing now.

by comet922 on Mar 1, 2008 7:16 PM CST reply actions

this seems to be close to owens' ceiling

based on their minor league records, I expect anderson and especially quintin to perform much better than their career performances so far

by The Wizard on Mar 1, 2008 8:01 PM CST up reply actions

I hate the 2B = SB reasoning

that always gets trotted out when discussing one of these pixies.

When has a SB ever driven in a runner from 1B?

If we're going to use simplistic reasoning, why not just note that Quentin has more RBI (They're the Luddites' Runs Created) than Anderson and Owens combined?

And since you've put minor league record off-limits you have to mention that a majority of Quentin's at-bats came with one arm.

I think it's telling that if we give Quentin and Owens a similar number of at-bats, allowing Quentin to use only one 1/2 of the time, and artifically inflate Owens' double count by adding net stolen bases, Owens still trails in the Xtra-base hit category by 9 hits. He only has 13 extra-base hits on his ML career! So in a race titled in Owens favor in every way possible, he still comes up woefully short.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Mar 1, 2008 8:07 PM CST up reply actions

But he's really fast..

by hitlesswonder on Mar 1, 2008 8:56 PM CST up reply actions

Well

the point of the post wasn't saying Jerry Owens is now or will ever be better than BA or CQ. It was saying based on the the Major League numbers he at least deserves a shot.
It was actually in reference to a post above that said he didn't deserve a shot because of the great Carlos Quintin is in the house now, but I accidently made it a new comment.

The doubles reasoning was actually meant to be secondary I know a SB doesn't drive in a run(unless he steals home:) but it is easier for the guy hitting behind him to drive a man in from second than it is from first.

The main point was he put up similar walk rates and better strikeout rates and much better AVG than his main competition. All I was saying was he at least deserve a shot. Give him the chance he'll confirm that he sucks, and by mid April well all get to see Quintin play him self into a full time role.

And again for the record I'm hoping for a
Swisher,Anderson/Quintin,Dye OF.
I just think that saying he shouldn't be given a chance at all doesn't make a whole lot of sense considering that his competition hasn't done much better.

by comet922 on Mar 1, 2008 11:26 PM CST up reply actions

"Give him the chance

he'll confirm that he sucks, and by mid April well all get to see Quintin play him self into a full time role."

Mid April of what year?

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 2, 2008 7:24 AM CST reply actions

What worries me

is that once they lock in on someone they stick with him to prove a point. Remember all the jokes about Erstad batting .150 all through the month of April? Ozzie can be awfully stubborn. If Jerry is his guy, that means he's his guy come hell or .310 OBP.

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Mar 2, 2008 9:39 AM CST up reply actions

the sox will not "give up"

on owens before the end of may. and that's assuming he's playing awful. by then, he'll have done all the "little damage" that tdogg says he will be limited to in order to sink any possible opportunity the sox have at competing.

by larry on Mar 2, 2008 9:54 AM CST up reply actions