The Giants don't want to give Kenny what he wants

by The Wizard on Mar 13, 2008 10:47 PM CDT in White Sox News

San Francisco, the most likely suitor for Crede, and the Sox have disparate evaluations that carry ramifications for both sides.

A talent evaluator familiar with both teams said the Sox were miffed the Giants' offers for Crede included since-released pitcher Scott Williamson; pitcher Randy Messenger, who was optioned to Triple-A Fresno last week; and veteran outfielder Dave Roberts.

The source said the Giants believe Sox general manager Ken Williams' asking price -- one of the Giants' top prospects and a serviceable young reliever -- was too steep for a 29-year-old infielder coming off season-ending back surgery.

... The Sox, according to the scout, also have inquired about left-hander Jonathan Sanchez. But the Giants are facing pitching issues after losing left-hander Noah Lowry to a hand injury through April and appear inclined to keep Sanchez.

... The Dodgers had a scout at the Sox's game Tuesday against Texas. They currently are sticking with Nomar Garciaparra at third while Andy LaRoche recovers from a hand injury that could sideline him through May.

***** In other news,

Carl's latest 'Palehose 8' comic strip: In Which We Take a Second Look at Our Lady.
John Danks allowed three earned runs on nine hits in five innings in a game at the Sox's minor-league camp today.

* * * * *

Update [2008-3-14 1:35:4 by The Cheat]: First, let me thank Wiz. It's so easy to fall out of the habit of posting here, and I haven't felt like writing the last few days. No news from me. I'm just tossing this bit up here.

I'm almost 88.7% sure we're still having this ultra-formal little get together this weekend.

Where: Miller's Pub
When: Saturday. During the game, stupid.

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What did Kenny expect?

Crede is screwing us over with his pathetic ST performance so far. I know that ST stats aren't the most important thing ever but 2 for 25 with 4 errors isn't impressing anybody.

But as bad as Crede has looked thus far, those offers are jokes. Scott Williamson?!? A washed-up, burnt toast reliever who was released anyways? I find it hard to believe that that was a real offer by the Giants. Randy Messenger? Not much better but at least he is young and can still throw a baseball. Messenger is still a weak offer though. Dave Roberts seems like a joke of an offer as well because the Giants must know that we have a younger, cheaper version of him already.

But then again, Kenny needs to lay off the smack if he thinks he is going to get one of the Giants' top prospects and a serviceable young reliever. Even Jonathan Sanchez is probably asking too much. And the fact that every team in baseball knows that Kenny has to move Crede to free up a spot for Fields isn't helping the offers. No one is buying the bullshit about Crede starting at 3B and Fields going back to AAA.

by SSH2005 on Mar 13, 2008 11:43 PM CDT reply actions

I buy the BS

I really think Williams won't trade Crede for junk...at least not yet. And I fully believe that the Sox are willing to have Fields start the year in AAA. From what we've read, Fields believes it as well.

At this point, I will not be surprised if Crede starts the year on the Sox. I will be surprised if he finishes the year on the Sox.

by hitlesswonder on Mar 14, 2008 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions

Crede

Crede right now is looking like an aging player with a bad back and a 1-year contract.

What team in their right mind would offer anything of value for him?

Kenny is on pluto if he thinks he should get a top prospect and a young reliever for him.

Ozzie: "He got a [migraine] headache. I believe him because he's a real religious guy. Someone else tells me they have a migraine, I know they are hung over."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 14, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions

everyone gets that this is a negotiation, right?

two sides meet. one wants to give a little. the other wants a lot. they meet somewhere in the middle?

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions

Absolutely

What do you think we could honestly get for him now?

Also, do you think they are better off getting whatever they can get and moving Fields to 3B. Or keeping Crede and hopefully trading him at or before the deadline with Fields in Charlotte?

My thought would be not to stunt Fields growth at 3rd and move Crede now - take the best offer. Maybe wait a week though.

Ozzie: "He got a [migraine] headache. I believe him because he's a real religious guy. Someone else tells me they have a migraine, I know they are hung over."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 14, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions

we'll get nothing

or whatever the baseball equivalent of that is. the giants don't need him. the dodgers don't seem interested. unless someone else pops up - which is likely what KW is waiting on and it's a good thought - there's no market.

they sox should obviously move on from crede before ST ends. the problem is that KW isn't really a sell low guy.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions

Sold Guch pretty low

Plus he gets himself out of 5m for the season... that may be part of the sticking point

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 14, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions

he sold iguchi at market rate

he would have turned into a pumpkin a few days later. i.e., nothing. dubee >>> nothing.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions

Not many people...

were in the market for a 2B middle last season... But I think KW could have forced the Phillies to give up more with the length of time Utley was prognosed to miss and their pennant race.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 14, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions

well

it's always cute when fans say "joe GM certainly could have gotten more for x."

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions

Because this would never

have occurred to the actual GM. I always like to imagine GMs reading blogs after the fact, slapping their foreheads and proclaiming, "Why didn't I think of asking for more????"

by palehose67 on Mar 14, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions

from what we've read about KW's

negotiations and trade requests (see today's post for an example), i don't think KW's problem is failing to ask for more.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions

Iguchi was a make-up for Phat Freddy

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 14, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions

conspiracy theories are even cuter

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions

I don't think it was a make-up...

but I think there exists the possibility that KW did not push the envelope enough as he could have and settled. Or maybe he did and the Phillies' GM (Forgot his name) said no.

No way to tell for sure what happened, and I am not saying he definitely could've gotten more. I'm not a clubhouse insider. I have my own opinion though, and it's probably completely unfounded. At least I recognize it as such :)

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 14, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions

you know what you get

for 150 PAs of a league average 2B who provides no free agent compensation? michael dubee.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions

iT MOST

certainly was a make-up....and Williams admitted exactly that at Soxfest....I heard it with my own ears....I was so flabergasted and commented on it right here the next Monday....I made a point to use it as an example of his biggest flaw...talking way, way too much.

by dantesox on Mar 14, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Conspiracy? I thought Kenny said it

at Soxfest and have spent the last 90 minutes looking for the quote (unsuccessfully). But Dante to the rescue from the morning after (yes, I know this is anecdotal. But where Dante thought KW revealed too much, I appreciated the confirmation of what some here and in Philly thought at the time):

http://www.southsidesox.com/comments/2008/1/28/141438/580/14#14

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 14, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions

i'd like to see someone

with a touch more credence substantiating that KW actually said this and was serious.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions

Like a beat writer? Merkin?

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 14, 2008 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions

seems to me

that if KW actually said that or something similar, someone would have jumped on it. like one of the fifteen newsmen covering the event.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions

it also seems to me

that people sometimes make the mistake of taking what KW says at face value when he's employing dry humor or sarcasm - such as his comment regarding detroit being in a better position to compete with the sox since they traded for miggy. KW does talk too much and, when one does that and doesn't always choose their words properly or misread one's audience, things like this can crop up.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions

UM...Mr Credibility,

I was there....no interpretation had to be made...perhaps someone has what he said on tape....it was UNMISTAKABLE....you best dig a little further, if you have the time and inclination....sorry to disappoint you.

by dantesox on Mar 17, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions

what i mean

is you're not credible. sorry.

by larry on Mar 17, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions

Larry.

A kind word for everyone.

Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?

by ballyb on Mar 17, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions

The story here is BA

seems to be comfy with his role (presently) and has exceeded (at least my) expecations in making the club. Let me be the first to say I (thus far) was wrong in my assessment that he needed to be gone before ST. (Not filled with the confidence of Hercules, am I, but I'm living in the Zen moment.)

Anyone else ready to have some humble pie? At least for now? Give the kid his due - he's looked better now than any time in a long while.

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions

it's his attitude

and of course opportunity. i think we all agreed before ST that the only way he could come back in the fold is by injuries - and he's taken advantage of not only quentin being out (which was expected, to one degree or another) but jerry, as well. he's done what he's supposed to, which seems to be a bit in contrast to the past - at least in attitude and approach. we'll see if it holds up for the long haul - he certainly didn't adapt well to being a 4th OF type last year. he needs to accept that role because that's what his talent level dictates and it's almost certainly what role he'd be given on the sox or just about any other team he might go to.

considering the fragile health of JO - i'm guessing he'll be struggling with leg injuries all year - BA, if he's willing to bide his time and play well off the bench, will have the opportunity to wrestle/inherit a starting job from someone. doesn't mean he necessarily "deserves" it because i think he's a 4th OF type - but there are quite a few guys who have had pretty long careers riding the bench for half the year and starting for half the year. that's pretty much the upside BA can hope for, at this point. it all depends upon whether he's willing to accept his place.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions

Let's see:

Major league per diem, world-class tang, chartered flights, 4-5 star hotels, has 300-350 AB's where everyone is watching (as in "dig ME").

Minor league per diem, toothless tang, buses, tents, has 500 AB's where no one is watching.

Which would any right-minded 26 year-old choose?

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions

ego, pride, spite, whatever

can get in the way of rationality. if BA is still thinking that he deserves to be a full-time starter and, instead of channelling such a belief appropriately by, say, doing well what job ozzie assigns him, decides to sulk and complain or whatever, he could end up being like a lot of players who just won't accept their station.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions

Perhaps his maturity is growing

One can only hope. People sometimes grow up.

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions

Sadly

That is were Crede is... except the other teams already view him as a cantaloupe (a 5 mil dollar one)

I hope if he does stick - he can get back to his old form... as in the '06 form

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 14, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions

No signs of that yet...

...we could possibly have $5 million tied up with Crede and $4.5 with Uribe.

Ouch.

Ozzie: "He got a [migraine] headache. I believe him because he's a real religious guy. Someone else tells me they have a migraine, I know they are hung over."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 14, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions

And I forgot that the Dodgers still have...

old man Nomar. I was hoping that the Giants and Dodgers being in the same division would stir up competing interests in Crede's services to the point where one of the two teams would make a decent offer just to screw the other team.

Can Nomar even make the throw to 1B from 3B these days? I seem to remember him having trouble with that last season. Either way, he will probably get injured at some point so the Dodgers may still want Crede.

by SSH2005 on Mar 13, 2008 11:50 PM CDT reply actions

Cubs offer for 2B Brian Roberts...

Gordon Wittenmyer wrote:

Sources confirmed Thursday that the Cubs have a four-player offer for Roberts on the table that includes the addition of hard-throwing pitching prospect Jose Ceda. Infielder Ronny Cedeno and pitchers Sean Gallagher and Donnie Veal also are in the package.

by SSH2005 on Mar 14, 2008 1:02 AM CDT reply actions

The Swisher trade looks better everyday...

One could argue that the above offer would be a bigger haul than Gio, DLS, and Sweeney. And we got a 27 year old .850 OPS outfielder with the potential for even more production in our ballpark that is locked up to a dirt-cheap contract for 5 years at $34.8 million. The Cubs would be getting a 30 year old .800 OPS second baseman who is only locked up for two years at $14.3 million. Not to mention the fact that Roberts is an admitted roider.

by SSH2005 on Mar 14, 2008 1:23 AM CDT up reply actions

but but but but

He's fast!!!

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Mar 14, 2008 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions

If Hendry does that deal...

he should be shot.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 14, 2008 2:38 AM CDT up reply actions

Yep...

A decent SS prospect and the Cubs' three top pitching prospects. I love the deal, hehe.

by SSH2005 on Mar 14, 2008 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions

I agree.

He's got to be on drugs if he does that.

ALL IN!!!!

Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?

by ballyb on Mar 14, 2008 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions

Love the sig, ballyb

Pods begat Erstad, who begat Owens...

by Winning is Fung on Mar 14, 2008 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions

meet-up

I'll be there, and everyone's first drink is on me...
see you in the Bill Veeck Corner.

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 14, 2008 4:49 AM CDT reply actions

I WILL BET ANYTHING

That Crede does not go to the Giants. Just like Roberts is not going to the Cubs. These rumors are made to put other teams on notice and put pressure on them to offer up a better package. Crede playing like sh*t is definatly not helping this cause.

Toonderstrook's myspace page http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=67492521

by Soulja Boy on Mar 14, 2008 8:13 AM CDT reply actions

I think both will happen eventually...

The Giants need a third baseman badly and the Orioles have no use for Brian Roberts now that they are obviously in rebuilding mode. Those four Cubs prospects will help them more than Roberts can. The Giants are trying to get Crede for junk and the Orioles are holding out for a ridiculous trade offer.

by SSH2005 on Mar 14, 2008 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions

Sorry I didn't see that post before

showing what package the cub's offerd. That is an awful lot to give up for a lead off hitter... well I guess we gave up Lee for Puds... It just seems that since I have been following trade rumors, all the trades that have been most talked about never happen. Cubs would be wise to give up all their prospects because they obviously cannot develope their own talent much like the sox with their young position players. Although, I think we do a good job with pitching prospects.

Toonderstrook's myspace page http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=67492521

by Soulja Boy on Mar 14, 2008 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions

OT - bally, you must

be having a blast in the pit today!

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 9:33 AM CDT reply actions

Sell Bear Stearns......

early and often.

Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?

by ballyb on Mar 14, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions

Buy at

the sound of cannons and sell at the sound of trumpets.

We have just hit the tip of the iceberg on the subprime mess and it is going to get really bad.

Ozzie: "He got a [migraine] headache. I believe him because he's a real religious guy. Someone else tells me they have a migraine, I know they are hung over."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 14, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions

You're preaching to the choir.

Buy Gold............next stop 1500.

Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?

by ballyb on Mar 14, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions

Boy, you sure go out

on a limb, bally!

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions

36 1/2 when I posted.

Closed at 30.00. 15% in 2 hours ain't bad.

Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?

by ballyb on Mar 14, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions

Well, duh

The trend is your friend. Where were you this morning at the opening, bro?

;)

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions

A famous Rothchild once said,

"I don't sell the top very often and I usually don't buy the bottom, but I've made a lot of money in the middle."

Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?

by ballyb on Mar 14, 2008 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions

I think Crede.....

needs to be put on the DL to start the season and then go on a three-week rehab assignment in Charlotte.

by stanchar on Mar 14, 2008 10:33 AM CDT reply actions

How about

A three week rehab assignment in Fresno?

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Mar 14, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions

New to SSS.....

I would rather run Vance Law out to third than Joe Crede. But at this point his trade value is so low we might as well keep him - it can only go up. As for the log jam at third? Don't worry - I'm sure Thome will find his way to the DL and we will need a DH

Where has the mental midget El Diablo been?

by jfbrens on Mar 14, 2008 11:02 AM CDT reply actions

Vance Law...

sheesh. Had his best year as a Cub...
Welcome to SSS!

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 14, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions

mental midget?

Oh that's right JF your so smart because you brought up Vance Law.

I should have never told you about this website. It was so nice to have a place that was free from dumb ass.

by ElDiablo on Mar 14, 2008 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions

With friends like these....

Hey man, this game is a bunch of front-runners. If you're good, they kiss your butt. If not, you're horse s---.

by winningugly on Mar 14, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions

MB scratched from saturday's start. masset in

sox say nothing to see here, move along

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 11:12 AM CDT reply actions

The White Sox seem to be pulling...

some Cubs-esque injury reporting. This is very fishy after hearing about the proposed rotation change.

by SSH2005 on Mar 14, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions

From that same blog, but yesterday...

Today's expected lineup does NOT have a certain BA in the OF. Only surprising (to me) since Owens isn't there either. But like you say, if Swish is gonna see time in CF...

Or maybe BA has made the 25-man and they're getting him used to sitting.

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 14, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions

BA has made the 25 man

if it were chosen today. so has jason bourgeois, for that matter. BA seems to have finally made the attitude/outlook adjustment that he's a fourth outfielder. assuming that holds and he can adjust to starting every fourth day or so and being a regular late inning defensive replacement, he should be on the roster.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions

I've not seen any indication...

That BA can succeed as a fourth OF. (I'm talking mentally and only playing once a week or so) I think he needs to be playing everyday, either in AAA or the big leagues. I think playing in spots will only hurt, not help his value, and consequently his career.

Do you think he can be a suitable 4th OF and guy off the bench?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 14, 2008 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions

why would you play a player everyday

who does not have the requisite skills to play everyday? if he wants to be on a major league roster, he needs to adjust to the fourth outfielder role. if he needs to play everyday, by all means send him to an AAA team. but that's as far as he'll ever go. he either adjusts or he's out of baseball. his career ceiling is a 4th outfielder. he's apparently gotten used to the idea. everyone else should, too.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions

I certainly agree....

That he isn't suitable for a starting role for a good MLB team... not yet... but he might be able to start for a bad, last-place MLB team right now, and if he continues to improve, start in CF for a decent team.

If Brian is used to the idea of being a 4th OF, fine, great. I haven't read anything from him saying he would, though.

For Brian's sake, he would definitely be better served monetarily if he were a 4th OF on a MLB club, but I think his trade value would increase if he spent the year in AAA.

I think his realistc celing right now is as a 4th OF for the Sox... holding Quentin's place until he gets healthy enough to play.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 14, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions

trade value?

we're splitting hairs here now. A ball player v. AA ball player, i take it? he's a fourth outfielder. if he's able to play that role, he's valuable. whether he can start for a shitty team is sort of irrelevant. they're not going to trade for him. they've already got fourth/fifth outfielders to start for them.

no one's trade value increases by spending a third year in AAA, with a horrible major league season mixed in. i would think that's fairly obvious. he's 26 years old. he needs to show that he can play a role at the major league level. otherwise, he's a dime a dozen organization player - i.e., the very definition of replacement level player.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions

the other things to keep in mind

is that the minor league games start in earnest today. that means we'll see the position starters going deeper into games and, until the major league roster is cut much leaner, some guys will be getting their hacks in earlier in the day over at the kino sports complex.

by larry on Mar 14, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions

from sox.com/mlb.com

Bit of Buehrle info?

Up next for White Sox: The Cubs visit Tucson for one of two battles between the crosstown rivals, with Nick Masset going against Rich Hill at 3:05 p.m. CT. Masset fills in for Mark Buehrle, who was scratched in order to help manage his innings total. Octavio Dotel and Scott Linebrink also are scheduled to pitch.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer.

by Hazymania on Mar 14, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions