Decision time for Sox opening day roster
Well, now that we've got a solid 23 hours into the new platform -- We've had about 160 relatively painless sign-ups in the since going live late last night. We've uncovered a bug or two, but for the most part things have been pretty smooth. -- It's time to sit back and actually talk about the White Sox.
For the third consecutive year, the Sox have hit an extended mid-spring funk. They've won twice in the last 14 days, none in the last 9. Business as usual for the Sox, who I seem to recall having the same type of streak in each of the last two season, but I don't know where to go to check spring training records. I'm actually glad I don't know where to go, if I did, it might be a sign I need more clinical help than I'm currently receiving.
Part of the problem is that the Sox have been facing an inordinate amount of left-handed pitching lately. This sinister issue needs to be resolved if they hope to be anything more than mediocre this year. The addition of Josh Fields and Nick Swisher to the lineup would have been a step in the right direction, but Fields looks like he'll end up in Charlotte, and it's unclear how Ozzie will utilize Swisher. One thing is certain, Pablo Ozuna will continue to start and leadoff against most lefties.
Supposedly, the decision-making staff will have an extended meeting on Tuesday to discuss the final roster. Among the discussion topics:
- What will Alexei Ramirez' role be?
- Can Juan Uribe be traded to make room for Alexei?
- Who is the 4th outfielder behind, ugh, Jerry Owens?
- Can (or should) Brian Anderson be traded to make that decision an easy one?
- Will Nick Masset clear waivers?
- If no, are they prepared to let him go for nothing in order to put the best team on the field in the form of Ehren Wasserman?
- What is the medium term-plan at 3B?
- How long do they stick with Crede at 3B if he continues his lackluster play of the spring?
And I'm sure there are a host of others.
I'd probably send Ramirez to Charlotte, even though he's impressed me this spring. He's still got some work to do, and I'm not sure that playing sporadically and mostly against lefties is the best way to develop his talents. I just have this gut feeling like we've been seeing Alexei play a bit over his head, and the results are clouding our view of what he'll do when the lights come on for real.
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Agree with you about Alexei
I think it's probably a lot easier to play without a book on you. There's just so much uncertainty and it appeas we may have our hands on an actual asset. It doesn't make sense to me to undermine his full development with sporadic play against a particular kind of major league pitching. Especially when he could be the long term CF/SS solution we've been seeking.
This reluctance to cut bait on non-players is getting in the way of guys who seem to be legit assets. Masset instead of Wasserman. Crede instead of Fields. Ramirez taking a spot on the big club's bench seems to be similarly short sighted. On the whole, I still very much appreciate KW's talent for acquiring...um...talent, but it seems like this spring especially he's really gotten a little bit pigheaded about his perception of a few players.
I wonder if JRE (welcome back!) or SSH will feel the need to expound upon and expand the extent of the aforementioned pigheadedness.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on Mar 24, 2008 11:42 PM CDT 0 recs
Viva Alexei
Alexei has no "book," but he has never faced any of these pitchers before either. A lot of the pitches and pitch combinations are new to him. He has hit a lot of balls hard this spring, desite, yes getting fooled a bunch too. He's got power, speed and great instincts in the field. Someone great off the bench vs fastball pitchers and, to me, the potential to be far superior than Juan Uribe (at the least).
by mglesne on Mar 25, 2008 12:25 AM CDT 0 recs
More agreement
I don't see the utility of keeping Ramirez with both Uribe and Ozuna on the roster. They'd be much better served with Ramirez playing SS/2B in AAA and getting a bunch of at-bats and keeping Fields to platoon with Thome. Plus a year of scouting Ramirez in AAA would let the Sox know for sure if he can play SS in the bigs next season.
What I think will happen this season is that Ramirez will be the 4th OF and backup CF. Anderson won't be on the team.
by hitlesswonder on Mar 25, 2008 12:28 AM CDT 0 recs
The other questions
I think Wasserman will be in AAA and Masset the long man. Coop said today they don't want specialists. Wasserman is a ROOGY, whereas Masset is equally ineffective against LH and RH hitters. So clearly, advantage: Masset.
I think Crede is on the Sox till August when he gets flipped for an A-ball reliever. It's a catch-22 situation. If Crede is lousy he has no trade value. If he plays well, the Sox will be reluctant to trade him. The only scenario that works to get Crede traded quickly is if he plays very well and the Sox fall out of the playoff race immediately. I don't see both happening.
by hitlesswonder on Mar 25, 2008 12:35 AM CDT 0 recs
Lefthanders vs Wassermann
Lefthanders are like 2 or 3 for 18 against Wassermann this spring. Why is he still considered a ROOGY?
by sylsouthbb on
Mar 25, 2008 6:25 AM CDT
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Ozzie and Company
So we are going to see a steady dose of Jessie in the lineup, including him facing lefties down in the lineup. I can't wait to see how effective two scraps starting ( Ozuna and Jessie) do in a lineup. Hawk will talk about how speed doesn't slump.
Hopes this season.
1.) Cabrera has a great season so he becomes a class A free agent. We don't sign him, and he goes to a good team so we get the 1st round pick.
2.) Owens gets replaced by Quentin soon. Ozzie talked about OBP, which basically is a buzzword that he doesnt believe in. He mouthed it, but when push comes to shove multiple speed guys is the answer for tough situation. Grinder speed guys short on talent overcome all.
3.) Crede is replaced by Fields. I understand that KW wants a good player for Crede, but that ship has sailed. Dump him as soon as possible and move on.
4.) We truly take the top talent at number 8 in the 2008 draft. I could care less who his agent is, how much money it will cost, or if we upset Selig. Our minor leagues are wrecked and we need impact players. If KW drafts a pitcher it better be a high schooler throwing mid 90s with some killer peripherals. Outside of Alvarez, it better be a high schooler with top skills. I could care less if Boras represents the guy, get Hahn to negotiate, pinch your nose and sign the talented kid.
5.) Move Dye to Left Field and/or dump him to another team.
by southsideirish71 on Mar 25, 2008 12:59 AM CDT 1 recs
How many minor leaguers do you really need?
Once again you are falling in love with "talent" which is a huge difference from "proven talent". We had 1 bad year with this team. Ozzie has had a winning season every year except last year. I agree that we should sign the best draftee possible... that goes with out saying. Look at our minor league system with Brian Anderson, Poreda, Quinten, Wasserman, and Fields just to name a few. We have 5 guys that will start the season in triple A that could start on most of the teams in the MLB. Dye has the potential to bounce back after an injury ridden season to get back to his MVP calibur form in 06'. I must not be as pessimistic as you ssi but I think some of your assessments are unfair.
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 8:53 AM CDT
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What other teams in the MLB could Jerry owens start for?
by SSH2005 on
Mar 25, 2008 9:00 AM CDT
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I never mentioned JO
Plus how good were our teams in 03' and 04' when we had all these high ops guys with no leadoff man who could steal some bases. Anytime JO gets on base, even if it's not that often... he will most likely score. I don't care what the stats say... having a high opb "base clogger" at the top of the lineup does this team no good. I agree to keep Owens because he is the only one with a lick of speed. All I heard on this board last year and this off season is that we have way too many base cloggers. So why all the hatred for JO? Did he bang one of your wives or something? I will laugh my ass off when he has a decent year and you guys will still be pining for BA!
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 9:35 AM CDT
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base cloggers
I really wish the White Sox had more base cloggers, as long as they get on base, I don't care how slow they are.
by shaftr on
Mar 25, 2008 9:38 AM CDT
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exactly
clogging the bases? a wonderful problem to have.
the beef most have with Owens is he's not that good a hitter-- low OBP, low OPS. Put at guy like that at the top of the lineup and it hurts your team. doesn't matter how fast he is.
If Owens can produce a league average OPS, we would be OK.
by ruffster on
Mar 25, 2008 9:49 AM CDT
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You must not be watching the WS DVD as closely as he does
Pods was the reason we won in 05, come on now. Speed don't slump. We should trade some of our base cloggers for more speed. If we had 9 fast guys our offense would be electric.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 9:51 AM CDT
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Is that You SoB?
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 9:40 AM CDT
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This is already a l o n g season....
Next time, Bhoov, do some research.
by Chiburb on
Mar 25, 2008 9:47 AM CDT
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It has to be Jessie's father
The 03 and 04 teams had no pitching, hence why they didn't make the playoffs. Unless you think that Jason Grilli and Felix Diaz matched up with our 05 pitching. Take the 05 pitching, and put it on the 04 team and it makes the playoffs and should go deep.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 9:48 AM CDT
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The '03 and '04 teams
had a bunch of chokers. They were out-played and out-hustled by the less talented Twins. Jerry Manual was a lousy manager and hasn't landed another manager job yet.
by CurlyMoe on
Mar 25, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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You must be new here.
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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Please enlighten us
How are my assesments unfair.
If you think Dye has the range to play RF, after visual and statistical proof over the years. Then please reveal your sources.
Poreda hasn't pitched past class A, so I think we can slow down the AAA promotion just yet. If he progresses as he should, he should be a fast mover and shouldn't have to see time in AAA. But he needs this year to prove he can get more advanced hitters out besides gassing kids in the great falls league.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 9:22 AM CDT
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re
we can slow down the AAA promotion just yet
what about oney though?
by The Wizard on
Mar 25, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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Around the field.
1B - Set with Konerko, Swisher backup.
2B - who knows.
SS - set with Cabrera but he's looked like crap in ST.
3B - I love Crede, but Fields to AAA is CRAZY.
LF - set with Swisher.
CF - Owens has hit about 5 balls out of the IF in ST, but he's our man.
RF - Dye belongs in LF.
C - I remember 1 baserunner being thrown out in ST (by Philips). Think 9 Jesse's on THEIR TEAM. AND Hall can't hit the ball out of the infield.
DH - Thome vs. LHP will waste about 150 ABs.
Long, long year!!!!!!!
"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."
by ballyb on Mar 25, 2008 7:08 AM CDT 1 recs
Why is it crazy
to think that Fields needs some work defensivly? I don't mind sending him down until the trading deadline. If we can't get rid of Crede by then... cut your losses and take what you can get. Then you got your 3rd basemen of the future even more seasoned defensivly and confident. I am sorry from what I have seen of Fields defensivly he would have to put up A-Rod numbers to make up for it. Your opinions?
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 10:06 AM CDT
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23 HRs, 67 RBIs in a little moe than half a season.
We have a DH who can't hit lefties and Crede's back is still up in the air. He can work on his 3B footwork in the majors.
Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?
by ballyb on
Mar 25, 2008 10:20 AM CDT
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Or....
Simply platoon Fields with Thome and spell Crede on occasion. I pretty sure Fields in that role would be more valuable than whomever the 25th man will be.
BTW, is there a consensus on whether or not Fields offense was enough to offset his terrible defense last season? I really don't know it was or not.....
by hitlesswonder on
Mar 25, 2008 10:26 AM CDT
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SAYS IT ALL!!!!!!!!!
"Fields......would be more valuable than whomever the 25th man will be."
Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?
by ballyb on
Mar 25, 2008 10:28 AM CDT
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Win Shares
He had 12 in a little over half a season...I'd say that his bat more than makes up for his play in the field.
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 10:30 AM CDT
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Link
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 10:31 AM CDT
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ozzie will not insult a "future hall of famer"
by taking DH at-bats away from thome for fields against LH even though this goes against Ozzie's 'win-now' attitude of '08
by The Scoper on
Mar 25, 2008 11:17 AM CDT
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he would have to put up Arod numbers to make up for it?
so basically you're saying fields is a sieve that loses the sox 60 or 70 runs over the course of a season. kind of ridiculous, buddy.
by larry on
Mar 25, 2008 10:25 AM CDT
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Larry
I love Fields as much as the next guy.... but not just his footwork but also his glove work is pretty bad too. Its not how many errors you make either, its when you make them. I can make 4 errors in the first inning that will make my stats look bad. Or I can be perfect the whole game and not make the play to end the game and lose. Win share is bs you dont know when these hr's were hit. With the lead, behind, or during a tied game. This game is way bigger than the stats the compose salaries.
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 10:36 AM CDT
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Well thank god we didn't think this way when Crede came up
Because his fielding numbers looked a lot like Fields last year.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 10:41 AM CDT
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I think...
there's a very good chance that Fields turns out to be a much better player, all the way around, than Crede ever was.
The Sox just have to give him a chance. He's not learning anything in the minors.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
Mar 25, 2008 10:44 AM CDT
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Remember Crede when he first came up?
His defense and feet were not that good. I used to cringe in 2002/2003 when a ball was hit to him...along with the other 14 fans in the ballpark.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on
Mar 25, 2008 10:51 AM CDT
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I do remember...
that Crede struggled with pop-ups (he still does).
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
Mar 25, 2008 10:55 AM CDT
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Agreed
I think some of us forget the kid was a (very good) college quarterback. He has a helluva lot more pure athletic ability, equating to a helluva lot more potential. If you extend Fields' rookie season to a full year, he far exceeds Crede's offensive output from 2006, his best season. Now that Fields has an additional year of experience and Crede's back is still a lingering question mark, how can anyone seriously say we're better off starting the season with Fields in Charlotte?
by onthemark12 on
Mar 25, 2008 10:51 AM CDT
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Fuck QB, we need a punter.
Was that a ground out to 2nd for Owens?
by ballyb on
Mar 25, 2008 11:06 AM CDT
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the economics of the game
says we're better off starting the season with Fields in charlotte, unfortunately
by The Scoper on
Mar 25, 2008 11:20 AM CDT
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Starting, maybe,
but at the end of the year, winning games puts people in the seats, which brings in revenue. And I, for one, feel Fields (sorry) gives us a better chance to win on a daily basis.
Besides, Crede's contract is a sunk cost, so ideally that should not weigh on opening day roster decisions; unfortunately, as you say, it doesn't look like management feels the same way.
by onthemark12 on
Mar 25, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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Crede sells tickets and advertising
for his '05 WS heroics. Many casual fans go to the park to re-live the glory days. I think that's why KW keeps old guys like Dye and Paulie around.
by CurlyMoe on
Mar 25, 2008 11:35 AM CDT
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i do
+4.. 1
+3 1
+2 1
+1 3
Tied 4
-1 3
-2 2
-3 1
-4.. 8
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahd. 6
Beh. 14
by shaftr on
Mar 25, 2008 10:41 AM CDT
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Win shares do account for "clutchness"
Similarly, if a player hits well in the clutch, then Win Shares gives him credit for that, even if hitting in the clutch is not likely to be a consistent skill.
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 10:44 AM CDT
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point being
it will not hurt him to go down to triple a and come back up as a complete player.
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 10:48 AM CDT
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Lets take a look at AAA for a second
He is going to hone his craft in a league where Felix Diaz was basically Johan. Jeremy Reed looked like Wade Boggs, and Brian Anderson was a 300 hitter.
Facing crappy AAAA pitching may be more of a hinderance. How many a sox prospect looked great in AAA only to struggle with a long looping swing. In the Majors flaws are exposed, in AAA you can get by because the guy that is trying to expose your flaws isnt really that good.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 10:53 AM CDT
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I don't think...
that Fields is going to learn too much in terms of fielding skills in the minors. He's twenty-five, and he's been playing third base since college - unless the player is learning a new position, I think that what you see is what you get at this point.
I hope I'm wrong, and Fields figures something out. But regardless - I still think he's a better option than Crede at this point.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
Mar 25, 2008 10:53 AM CDT
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Remember
He was honing his 3rd base skills with an oversized mitt that he was allowed to use during his assent through the minors. Do we really want him back in AAA where they allowed him to field the ball with an outifelders mitt.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 10:56 AM CDT
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Yup.
I'm really more concerned with Fields' hitting ability - particularly his ability to catch up with an above-average major-league fastball. He's not going to learn that in the minors.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
Mar 25, 2008 10:57 AM CDT
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true
all i am saying is that him going back down is not the worst thing in the world. we still have him... he is still with the organization. You just need to tell the kid what the deal is and not play around with his mind. He will understand and be a good team player I hope. Kenny is probably testing him to see if he is "Chicago Tough".
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 11:00 AM CDT
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I agree with you.
I like to see Fields improve on his defense. (There is still time for KW to trade Paulie so that Fields can play first).
by CurlyMoe on
Mar 25, 2008 11:04 AM CDT
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I actually...
wouldn't mind seeing a Konerko trade, with Fields at first. But I think that the team has given Konerko emeritus status - he's not going anywhere any time soon.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
Mar 25, 2008 11:06 AM CDT
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If they move Konerko
They should move Swisher to first.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 11:07 AM CDT
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In an ideal world...
the Dye signing never happened. That made very little sense at the time, and it's making less sense every day.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
Mar 25, 2008 11:11 AM CDT
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With him playing so far of the RF line
How many singles will he turn into doubles, how many doubles become triples. He lumbers down towards the line, yet for some reason cheats to the gap. I think right now, he can move back to the fence fine, and maybe up a bit fine. But his right to left movement has severely been impaired over the last few years.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 11:14 AM CDT
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That's why he should play LF, not RF,
but Ozzie won't move Dye from RF unless Dye is in a wheelchair.
by CurlyMoe on
Mar 25, 2008 11:15 AM CDT
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I thought that way for a while this winter
Then I though... what the hell is Thome still doing on the team? He as failed every time we really needed him since hes been on the club. Yeah he puts his numbers up but where is his fire... and passion? Package him and Crede for your much loved "prospects". If we dump Thome we can DH Konerko.. play Swisher at 1st and Fields at 3rd. then everyone is happy.
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 11:18 AM CDT
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Is that a serious comment? I thought I picked up some sarcasm..but not sure...
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 11:20 AM CDT
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i wrote like two hours ago that this is jermaine
that post had two meanings but since one obviously means nothing to anyone, jermaine is a guy who wrote a post on the suntimes blog about how jim thome sucks really, really bad.
by larry on
Mar 25, 2008 11:23 AM CDT
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Cool...I got the first mean...
Enough with the Double-Talk Larry
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
by BoKnows on
Mar 25, 2008 11:28 AM CDT
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With the new site comes...
So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes
by Brush Back on
Mar 25, 2008 11:45 AM CDT
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Thome has a no trade contract.
Also, he sells tickets. The Sox will more than likely extend him than get rid of him.
by CurlyMoe on
Mar 25, 2008 11:21 AM CDT
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The sox will not extend Thome
If Thome has a no-trade contract then how did we trade for him? We would probably have to have him waive his no trade rights then.
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
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To bad the Giants aren't in the AL
The market for an older DH is limited at best. We pretty much have to look at the AL, and how many of those teams don't have a DH.
by southsideirish71 on
Mar 25, 2008 11:23 AM CDT
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Tampa Bay
Rays, A's (not likely), NY (always looking to improve), Baltimore (rebuilding), Seattle... there are a few...
by Where Triples Go to Die on
Mar 25, 2008 12:05 PM CDT
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Oh no!
We don't need him to learn 1B...he needs to be at 3B! If we trade Paulie then you move Swisher to 1B and let Quinten play LF.
The "Crede situation" reminds me of the "Bonnie Situation" in Pulp Fiction! We need Mr. Wolf (Harvey Keitel) to fix this.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on
Mar 25, 2008 11:09 AM CDT
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But...
at this point it's pretty clear that as long as Crede's in a Sox uniform, he's got the nod at 3B. And as long as Thome's on the team he's got the nod at DH.


