White Sox roster picture becoming clearer
by The Cheat on Mar 25, 2008 11:30 PM CDT
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PrintThe White Sox opening day roster became much clearer thanks to series developments on Tuesday, which made for an interesting day and a good demonstration of our new FanShot feature.
- Following the extended morning meetings to discuss the roster, Toby Hall was called in for at least one meeting, if not two. It initially appeared like Hall was on his way off the opening day roster, but at the end of the day, He and A.J. Pierzynski were the only catchers left on the spring roster.
- Josh Fields was officially optioned to Charlotte, making Joe Crede the starter with Pablo Ozuna and Juan Uribe as his back-ups. Doesn't that sound familiar?
- Juan Uribe has won the second base job, but Ozzie warned that he'll have a quick hook.
"If Uribe doesn't do what we think he can do, he will be replaced. I'm not going to put pressure on him. He knows he has people around him who can play that position.
"But the way he played in spring training, and the way he went about his business, I think he earned that spot."
- Finally, Jerry Owens went in for an MRI which reveal he has a slight tear of an abductor. He will be put on the DL retroactive to Monday, and will be eligible to be back for the home opener April 7th. That's the same injury Scott Podsednik has had each of the last two seasons. In fact, Pods battled it last spring, but made the opening day roster before re-injuring the groin and missing the next 2 months.
I'm going to be honest. Sending Fields to AAA doesn't bug me that much, or at least not as much as many of you. I want the Sox to put the best team on the field, and Fields hasn't yet convinced me that his 2008 skill set is greater than that of 2008 Joe Crede. Obviously, that argument would be a whole lot easier to make if Crede were having a more productive spring.
Ultimately, I don't think there is enough evidence on either player's side to get too worked up over the third base situation. There are valid arguments on both side of the ledger, and I'm not convinced that there is an obvious, hard and fast right answer. Fields is obviously the long term choice, and as such, he would have received my vote, but I just can't muster the ire to get worked up over this one.
Were I making the decisions, things would be different. I'd find a way to get Fields on the roster, probably platooning with Thome at DH and occasionally at 3B as many of you have suggested. And truthfully, I would have parted with Crede for whatever meager returns I could have obtained in the last two weeks.
* * * * *
Jerry Owens' trip to the DL is good news for Brian Anderson and Carlos Quentin, who will both open the season on the roster. Anderson, in particular, has the opportunity to earn himself some major playing time in Owens' absence. He'll share center field duties with Alexei Ramirez in the first week of the season, during which the Sox are scheduled to face a number of lefthanders. In addition to C.C. Sabathia on opening day, the Sox should face Detroit's Nate Robertson and Dontrelle Willis before Owens is eligble to come off the DL.
* * * * *
Maybe the worst news of the day was that there was no resolution (or at least no reported news) to what should be a no-brainer in the battle for the final bullpen spot. I can only hope that we haven't heard anything because they don't want to remove the minute amount of trade value that Nick Masset may have by declaring Ehren Wasserman the winner of the final bullpen slot.
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nothing to see here, please move along....
He'll share center field duties with Alexei Ramirez in the first week of the season...
so is the fact that alexei isn't starting in AAA glossed over on purpose or just natural logic since JO is on the DL?
who's starting the pool for which guy gets sent down when JO returns?
nevermind
this is what i get for reading posts and comments in top-down order, not yet seeing SSHs comment in the thread further down.
nothing to see above, please move along....
by thatshortkid on Mar 26, 2008 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions
quentin gets sent down
The Sox don't need 2 backup outfielders, they need a guy who can play both infield positions and outfield (Ramirez). They don't need another power hitter, they need hits, gappers, speed. I would like to see more of Quentin, but Anderson's discipline and approach are outstandng. Owens wins a spot on speed, even if he only hits 270.
The words
Anderson, discipline and outstanding in the same sentence is by far a first for me.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Bobby, he forgot to add "in Arizona"
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
Totally unrelated
I'm just happy to be watching baseball that matters, albeit Boston "@" Oakland at 6:30 in the morning.
I'll bring the awesome.
Oh believe me I'm not.
I just liked the kid during his short stay here and was disappointed when he got figured out. It was good to see him return to his April 06 form... in March.
I'll bring the awesome.
Too bad...
Aardsma didn't get things figured out while he was here. He had opportunities with the Sox and then still could of recovered in AAA, but IIRC he didn't pitch well there either.
Aardsma has now been with the Giants, Cubs, Sox and now the other Sox. No doubt the Giants, Cubs and Sox all recognize David's ability but were disappointed with the results hence the reason three teams have traded him.
I can't even remember the player the Sox got from the other Sox for David.
"The championship pennants, oh long may they wave - O'er the grounds of the Sox and the Cubs gloomy grave." - 1906 Chicago Daily News
trade up
On January 28, 2008, the Boston Red Sox acquired Aardsma from the White Sox for pitching prospects Willy Mota and Miguel Socolovich.
"The championship pennants, oh long may they wave - O'er the grounds of the Sox and the Cubs gloomy grave." - 1906 Chicago Daily News
Too bad
he had the look of a deer in head lights everytime he took the mound. I think the bullpen failed last year because of the lack of leadership. I know you guys don't believe that much in chemistry but those young guys had no one to look up to except Jenks... and Jenks is still young himself and not a vocal leader. This is why I believe KW signed Linebrink if nothing else than to mentor the younger guys while getting some outs.
by Where Triples Go to Die on Mar 26, 2008 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Well put Cheat
And I whole heartedly agree the Wasser-Masset situation doesnt make any sense to me at all.
I think the Sox see a few things favoring Masset
1. He's out of options
2. They want a guy who can pitch multiple innings which is Masset's profile
3. They want a guy who is equally effective against LHs and RHs per Cooper
4. ...and Wasserman is a ChadBradfordesque arm, not a power arm like the Sox prefer.
The only thing making this a competition at all is that Wasserman can get some guys out while Masset can't get anyone out.
by hitlesswonder on Mar 26, 2008 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
well
1. should never be a reason
2. that's true, though i'm not sure that's masset's effective profile
3. that may be true
4. put down your moneyball. i think the sox are over that one; see, e.g., takatsu, shingo
wasserman will get it after masset is lit up tomorrow.
I think they'll keep Wasserman as well
I was just listing reasons the decision seems to be difficult for the Sox. Being out of options may not be a reason to carry a player, but it is reason to give him every possible chance to win a job.
by hitlesswonder on Mar 26, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Bus as usual on the South Side
Contract = Pay = Play
Hard for Sox acknowledge player decisions that don't work out - regardless of the win now banter or the this ain't your daddy's WS.
Case - Cabrera brought in to replace Uribe's bat... Uribe can't be moved, Uribe starts 50 ft over / Hall can't throw/hit - still on roster, Crede can't be moved (no value) - Fields in minors (Though that one bothers me less like Cheat said)
So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes
Am I the only one that is praying that
Quentin and BA light it up over the first 2 weeks of the season?
Even if they do, I bet JO is just handed the CF job once he returns.
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
good
that means he'll break again more quickly. forget about owens. i think i've already taken on here the under that he'll get 250 ABs. this injury cooks him for the season.
Wouldn't you rather...
see him get his chance and fail? If we go through another season just like Pods provided last year, then I see us starting the '09 season hating some new replacement in the Pods/JO parade. Another of the low OBP lead-off types with a highly overestimated base stealing ability. I'd rather see Kenny finally get the message with JO going out there everyday and not being that "sparkplug" they claim he is.
Out-underacheiving the other guy.
by defensive indifference on Mar 26, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
this is him getting his chance and failing
staying healthy is a rather large part of playing in the big leagues. speed players tend to "peak" early and then flame-out. see willy taveras for another present example of this. the reason they flame-out is because they get older and the wear on their legs causes them to lose both speed and the ability to stay in the lineup. you're witnessing the start of the decline of owens.
as for your other point, i'm not sure it matters whether owens is out there or not for that. it's a philosophocial thing. if the sox philosophy is to have a sparkplug at the top of the lineup that's what they're going to aspire to whether owens is playing or not. i would think seeing that an outfield of swisher, dye, quentin, BA, ramirez, etc. produce would be more likely to disabuse them of this notion, if it is indeed their philosophy, than owens failing.
I am assuming by the decline of Owens
you mean the decline of his health?
I think there is just as many speed players that peak for 5-7 years as there are speed players that peak for a few years and flame out. Kenny Lofton, Juan Pierre, Carl Crawford, and Johnny Damon are examples of this .
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
juan pierre
is the only speed player you mentioned. the rest are players with more than one skill.
and, no, i mean the decline of owens. health of course is a large component of the production of any player.
The others
Did not have their speed decline in a few years though. Lofton could be put in that category as well.
So you are assuming this is the decline of Owens speed? He doesn't really have any other skill set to decline...if that is what you meant, I see your point.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
If this is true, a few things could happen.
1. BA plays a decent CF and Swisher stays in LF.
2. BA stinks and Swisher is moved to CF with Quentin taking over LF
3. Both 1 & 2 with Ramirez filling in as well in CF.
What would you like to see?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd like to see #1
for defensive purposes. I think Quentin is a year away from making a big impact.
"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca
I'll be surprised if Anderson plays much
I really think Ramirez will get the bulk of the at-bats in CF, with Swisher some as well.
I think this is a big chance for Quentin to stick though, and he might actually be able to.
by hitlesswonder on Mar 26, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions
In my gut I agree
I just hope I'm wrong and Ramirez is getting starts at 2nd.
So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes
And you know
If they start out slowly on offense, they will use the built in excuse they used last year. Well without Podsv.20 we couldnt get our offense going. Podsv2.0 is the key to our offense clicking, and without it we are out of sorts. Plus the damn perfect storm was sighted over lake Michigan heading for Lake Erie for the first few games.
by southsideirish71 on Mar 26, 2008 9:53 AM CDT reply actions
Exactly.
That was the other thing I was going to say. I can hear the excuses coming from organization already. I think I'd much rather see Jerry play (whether he's bad or good) than have him be on the DL. I just don't think Ozzie and Kenny really take into account what Larry is saying above.
Out-underacheiving the other guy.
by defensive indifference on Mar 26, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions
that's because you apparently missed my point
which is predicated on those other players producing. if they aren't producing, of course they're going to be pining for their sparkplug. but if they are producing, the sparkplug concept will be quickly forgotten, at least for 2008.
I think you are under estimating the power of speed
Unless Anderson and the replacements tear it up not just play well but tear the cover off the ball, they will be immediately replaced the minute Podsv2.0 comes off the bad wheel wagon. Even if they are playing well, the sparkplug will overshadow logic.
by southsideirish71 on Mar 26, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
and i think you're overestimating
owens' ability to play. he's cooked, at least for this season. ozzie doesn't have patience for players he can't count on to play everyday, especially when he has other options. owens will enter the lineup, suck and/or reinjure himself, and then exit it. later on this season when ramirez takes over at 2B, there's your new sparkplug - though he's one who, unlike his predecessors, actually can play baseball in a bit more well-rounded fashion. jerry had his golden opportunity to establish himself, if only for a season or two. it's been taken now. you can't leave the door open and jerry left it wide open for quentin, BA and especially ramirez.
Wow!
This are pretty big statements to be saying on March 26th about a 25-year old and his health for the season!
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
not really
history tells us exactly how injuries like this affect players in the mold of jerry owens.
and he's 27, by the way
which is another primary reason for this assessment. he's technically at the end of or out of the physical peak for speed. one of jerry's problems is that he never actually learned how to exploit his speed - like by learning how to bunt properly and steal bases. he just relied on pure speed for those things (though he may have improved upon all these recently, he certainly didn't master them). some guys who are speed players and aren't among the gifted exceptions who stay healthy or otherwise maintain their speed for a long period (dave roberts is probably a good recent example of this) manage to extend their careers because they know how to steal bases and know how to bunt and so on and, therefore, while their speed may decline some they "replace" it with technical ability. jerry has little margin for error because he hasn't seemed to have mastered this stuff.
So for the record...
...you are saying this injury has basically "cooked" his career?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
i play the probabilities
this probably means he's on the way down, certainly as a potential starter. i wouldn't call it a slam dunk at this point, because i woulnd't be wholly surprised if he's able to recover from this and get back to whatever his level is for a year or two. but more likely than not. the problem for jerry is opportunity. players like jerry, especially at his age, don't get more than one or two of them. this was certainly one of them and it looks like his season is going to be mucked up pretty good by this injury.
I do wish...
that Ramirez (1) displayed more patience and (2) looked like he knew what to do with a breaking pitch.
The guy's got obvious talent, but part of me thinks that major-league pitchers aren't going to have a whole lot of trouble figuring out how to get him out.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
I know you know...
but I don't see him as a potential leadoff hitter, not at all. He simply doesn't have the on-base skills.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Like...
a groin pull can tell you what a player's future will be?
Nobody knows the future. There's a chance, however minute, that Nick Masset will put it all together, become an All-Star pitcher, and make me look stupid. But I'd be willing to bet that that'll never happen.
Similarly, Alexei Ramirez could suddenly learn to take walks and handle breaking pitches, but I'm not betting on that, either.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
we've got a hell of a lot more information about
the jerry owens-type situations - oh, wait, that's right: you think will carroll and his database on injuries is stuff he pulls out of the newspaper and comments on so why am i even addressing this with you? wasting my time again.
ramirez took plenty of walks in cuba and in international play. obviously there are reasons for this other than skill but i'm not going to write in permanent marker what a guy's abilities are based on a ridiculously small sample size - especially a player who's looking to impress during those few plate appearances and, duh, hitting is going to do that a heck of a lot more than talking walks, most especially in this organization.
There is also a factor
That this was a glorified tryout for Ramirez. His stick and the ability to hit the ball is what will get him playing time not how many walks he can take. As he matures and feels more comfortable he might go deeper into the ABs.
by southsideirish71 on Mar 26, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
If I was going to base my opinion...
entirely on Spring Training performance, I'd be excited over the .345./365/.552 line that he's put up, and ignore all the warning signs, like the fact that he hasn't drawn walks, or that scouts from other organizations doubt his ability to handle breaking pitches, or that the White Sox were the only team interested in giving him a major-league contract.
If he was 21 or 22, I'd be an unabashed supporter of Ramirez, and be really excited about his potential. Even at 26, I'm happy he's in the organization, and I don't doubt that he can become a league-average shortstop (which is really nice to have).
But I don't think he'll be more than that.
Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am - I'd be thrilled if he turned out to be Jose Reyes redux.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah jerry, we know
this is the third time i've told you i know what your position regarding ramirez is. i'm glad, though, you've finally realized that alexei can play SS. didn't your "scouts" tell you he couldn't?
I never said he couldn't.
I just wondered if he could, that's all.
It seems like every time that I express doubt about something, you interpret that as me saying that I definitely believe that it isn't true.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
because i quickly get bored with most of your posts
one of the reasons i didn't miss reading your posts for the last month was because you've pretty much become a caricature. i already know what you're going to reply to my and other posts - so why bother taking them seriously or even reading them closely?
i'm not interpreting it as you saying it's definitely true. i simply find it amusing that you equate the likelihood of such a thing as ramirez being able to take a walk or hit adequately with nick masset becoming a decent player. silly "similarlity" to make and i felt dumber for reading it. if the conclusion that i should have drawn from such a comparison on your part was that there was still a reasonable chance of ramirez doing so, perhaps you should come up with a better comparison. no numbnut on here thinks (ballyb still hopes, though) that nick masset can do anything.
Jeez, larry...
if you don't like my posts, don't read 'em. I try to be civil, when I disagree about something, I try to do so in a constructive manner. I don't always succeed, but I try.
I also try not to make categorical statements. I don't have perfect information (or anything close to it), so when I have an opinion, I try to make it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact, and I'm more than willing to admit I'm wrong when events show that I am.
You're a smart guy, and you have some really good points (many of which I agree with, and when I do agree, I say so), but it's not like you're the most pleasant guy in the world, either.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
So....
....are you guys excited for the Civil Rights game on Saturday??????
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Has he been?
Never seemed like it last year
So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes
you replied to my post
with something 1) i already know and 2) something i already agree with. and then you kept going on and on for some reason. that's when you're going to get my unpleasantness. but you already know that.
Oh this is what happens
1. When it is spring training and we repeat ourselves because there is nothing of major interest to talk about until the season starts.
2. We express our opinions in words as communication - thus all other senses are null and void making it sometimes hard to understand where someone is coming from.
3. Chatting with and arguing with an attorney who will make his point come across to you sometimes as absurd but will somehow convince you before all is said and done that it makes perfect sense and do the opposite to your remarks as you thought they made sense when you made them and after he has dissected them you don't realize what the hell you were talking about to begin with. (no offense Larry)
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
FWIW
Which is approximately nothing, I think it was pretty unclear whether or not Ramirez could play SS well until he was seen doing in spring training. I know I doubted it based on the fact that there didn't seem to be much interest in Ramirez from other teams. If he was the second coming of Betancourt I would have expected a small bidding war. Plus, I didn't read about him being THE SS on his teams in Cuba -- IIRC he played several positions.
So anyway, I also was dubious until Guillen said the guy could play. I don't think it was ludicrous to have some doubts. But JRE and I are tempermentally similar, I think.
by hitlesswonder on Mar 26, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I admit...
I read that last sentence 3-4 times and gave up. Too...lawyerly.
Out-underacheiving the other guy.
by defensive indifference on Mar 26, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions
lawyerly?
i think you need to work on your vocabularly. there's nothing lawyerly about what i wrote.
No, my vocabulary is fine.
I can handle "disabuse" but look at the structure of this thing!:
"i would think seeing that an outfield of swisher, dye, quentin, BA, ramirez, etc. produce would be more likely to disabuse them of this notion, if it is indeed their philosophy, than owens failing."
No need to get snarky, Larry.
Out-underacheiving the other guy.
by defensive indifference on Mar 26, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
i thought you were referring to the post you replied to
that's not lawyerly. that's just shitty writing on my part.
LOL!
Self-deprecation suits you, sir.
Man, I can't wait for the season to start so we can have the big writing guns trained on actual players'/management performance rather than ourselves.
BTW, I think the whole idea of Ramirez getting enough AB's with the big club has been discussed sufficiently - Oz has already said he knows the kid needs AB's, and he'll get them. I bet he's on a short leash, though, if he falls on his face after a month or two. Like when they sent BA down in '06. At least Alexei is not being built up as the OF "savior" BA was, so there's less pressure on him.
I still see Alexei as a great pickup, especially when cost is factored in. Let those man-made human flotillas land in S. Florida! Let freedom ring!
I took the "under".
by winningugly on Mar 26, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
i sort of realize why the sox are doing it
and i'm not all that opposed to it even though i think it's fairly obvious that ramirez needs AAA. but jason bourgeois probably provides the same thing as ramirez at this point. of course, you'd obviously have to add him to the 40. whatever. it provides something interesting to watch.
I thought the Sox...
had a spot open on the 40-man when they dumped Carlos Vasquez, but I could be wrong about that.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 26, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, like you said yesterday,
if they're all equal there's not much competition. I think they might feel they know what they have with the Frenchman and may have a big, raw diamond in Alexei. Like most autistic/ADHD folks, I bet they like shiny things.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on Mar 26, 2008 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
cintron to iowa
boy, wouldn't he look great at 2b for the sox?
http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports_hardball/2008/03/cedeno-chosen-o.html
Well...
...I guess it all depends if we think he will be able to hit, take some walks and play an adequate 2B while still making sure we get at bats for Ramirez.
(I AM JUST KIDDING!)
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Cedeno
Probably will be traded
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Good Ole'
Matt Karchner....he's turned into Orlando Cabrera for us.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 26, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Ozzie's short leash
Ozzie is always threatening players, particularly Uribe, but he doesn't follow through. Uribe has hit well this spring and at times in the past 3 years but he gets lackadaisical and flounders. We'll see how strong Ozzie is. I am glad Anderson looks as if he is growing up, we all do, eventually.
Hugh Hefner hasn't
Nor has Jim McMahon. (He brought his HOT girlfriend to fantasy camp a few years ago and they both drank their way through it. So I am told by those who were there.)
Those exceptions notwithstanding, hopefully SSH will mature as we (mostly) have with the birthing of his new baby - SSH2008.
I took the "under".
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