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Final bullpen spot is a no-brainer

Only a call from Governor Kenny can save Masset

Two paragraphs into writing a post trying to explain why the White Sox haven't yet cut bait with Nick Masset, I may have stumbled onto something. I wrote the following passage: Ehren Wassermann is a major league pitcher. He would make the roster of any major league club willing to carry twelve pitchers.

It was as I wrote those words it dawned on me; it must be Wassermann the Sox are shopping, not Masset. Truthfully, I don't believe that, but it's really the only logical explanation why the Sox opening day roster hasn't been finalized.

There's should be no debate about who is the better pitcher, regardless of role. One has a unique deliverly and skill set which may limit his effectiveness against a certain subset of hitters; the other has the ability to pitch ineffectively for multiple innings at a time against all subsets of hitters. Like I said, a no-brainer. Who needs effective pitching when you can have the flexibility of true mop-up man?

Mark Gonzales didn't run a single positive quote on Masset from Sox coaches in his article Friday, presumably because there was none to be had. This tells me one thing; Masset is only around because Kenny Williams still likes him, because Kenny still thinks he has a future, because Kenny wants the Danks-McCarhty trade to look like a solid win.

Lone Star Ball makes a point of which we were previously unaware. Because Masset has already been outrighted -- during the 2005 season, when the Sox claimed Ryan Wing from the Rangers, but not Masset -- he can declare himself a free agent when the Sox put him through waivers this time. Because of this, there's virtually no chance of Masset remaining in the organization unless he does so on the major league roster.

Think about that last line for a second. Masset will (most likely) no longer be in the organization if he doesn't make the club. If Kenny still thinks Masset has a future despite the massive amount of evidence to the contrary, he may actually force Ozzie's hand. If Masset makes the club, it's wasn't a decision about who is the best pitcher, about who made the club better; it was about the unrealized potential of Masset's fabled 98 MPH fastball.

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Hey, we agree!

I really think Masset will make the team; I just don't see Williams giving up on him so soon. And I felt bad for thinking that -- it smacks of innate pessimism and anti-Williams bias (which I'm emabrking on a 12-step plan to conquer). Anyway, your post makes me feel better about my semi-gloomy tea-leave reading.

I hadn't considered that the Sox would trade Wasserman (has an option left I think, doesn't he?). If he can be stashed in AAA, trading him seems silly unless the Sox are down on him. Someone from the bullpen will have their arm fall (Dotel?) or just suck (Mac?) and some minor league reliever will get called up. But, I think you could very well be right. Wassermann isn't the Sox preferred power arm reliever, and I could see them thinking that they'd be selling high on him. It's too bad if so, because a guy who makes it to the bigs after trying out is easy to root for. Plus he's a better pitcher than Masset.

In the big scheme, I suppose a bad decision about the last man in the bullpen isn't a big deal -- it won't make or break the Sox season. But it seems like the Sox have a habit of making bad decisions on the margins: not platooning Fields with Thome, not moving Dye to LF, not realizing a sunk cost with Hall, signing Ozuna which leads to him taking up a roster spot even though he's redundant, and keeping Masset because he can pitch 3 bad innings instead of one decent inning. Put all together and I have to think costs them some wins.

by hitlesswonder on Mar 28, 2008 12:50 AM CDT   0 recs

The hitting coach has a hitting coach

I was just looking at the stats for Cheat's 1986 team:

Greg Walker: .309/.385/.522

What the hell has gotten into him?

by Sox Machine on Mar 28, 2008 2:34 AM CDT   0 recs

Greg Walker...

was a good hitter back in the day. If he had stayed healthy, he could easily have had a Mark Grace-type career. He just couldn't stay healthy.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 28, 2008 10:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Plus, There Was That Seizure Thing

Hey, when you're talking mediocre mid-80s White Sox, you are really in my sweet spot. Greg Walker was a great looking young hitter when he came up. I remember Bill James writing, somewhere around 1984-5, that AL fans could really look forward to watching three terrific young first-basemen develop and dominate. The three guys he had in mind were Don Mattingly, Kent Hrbek and Greg Walker.

Walk's 1984 campaign was beautiful thing. As a 24 year old, he went .294/.346/.532 (basically what he's doing for Cheat). Remember, this was the mid-80s, when those numbers meant something. His OPS+ was 135 and his OWP was .657. He was going to be the next big thing. (It still kills me that we added this great young bat to a team that won 99 games - taking Tom f'ing Paciorek's place no less - and still tanked in 1984.) It never really happened for him. He pinged through the 80s with a few decent years but it seemed like when he was healthy, he wasn't developing and whenever he started going good, he got hurt.

Then in the Summer of 88 he had this seizure while warming up for a game. The way I remember it, Herm Schneider (or one of his assistants?) saved Walk's life by sticking a pair of tape scissors into his mouth and pulling his tongue out of his throat. It was scary as hell. He was done for the year but he came back in 89. I remember being at the Home Opener that year and as they introduced the players, Walk got biggest ovation (excepting, maybe, Harold) because we were all just so glad he was alive. I remember how happy he looked just to have made it back. Its stories and threads like that that make it worthwhile to watch a team over decades.

by Landfill on Mar 28, 2008 10:52 AM CDT to parent up   1 recs

I thought the team...

would win in a walk in '84. With Baines, Kittle, Walker, Fisk, and Luzinski, and adding Tom Seaver to a staff that already had Dotson, Bannister, and Britt Burns, I thought they couldn't lose.

When the Cubs added Greg Maddux to the team in 2004, I compared them to the '84 White Sox. Cubs fans poo-poohed me.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 28, 2008 11:02 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You're forgetting

La Marr Hoyt. The big dude was an absolute horse in 1982 and 1983. He was a funny pitcher since he didn't play the way he looked. He looked and acted like some macho flame-thrower but what he really was was a control freak. In his Cy Young year, he walked 31 guys in 260 innings. That's nuts.

Of course, he tanked in 1984 too and then Hemmond traded him to San Diego for a punk Venezuelan kid named Guillen. I always wondered if Hemmond knew in his heart that Hoyt was into some serious bad-shit and dumped him before the drugs got him.

by Landfill on Mar 28, 2008 11:16 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh yeah...

the Sox brass knew that Hoyt was trouble.

I forgot about LaMarr Hoyt. IIRC, he didn't have good stuff at all - he just threw strikes. An object lesson in the value of not walking guys.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 28, 2008 11:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You weren't the only one

who thought we were pointed for success in '84. I think I was more disappointed with that season than when Tito Landrum's homer flew over my head in that 1-0 playoff heartbreaker in '83.

I dug that Winning Ugly team.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Mar 28, 2008 11:18 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

wow, i never would have guessed you dug that team...

"This has been a very long campaign so, occasionally I am a human being like everybody else. Last week for the first time in 12 or so years, I misspoke."

by Toonderstrook on Mar 28, 2008 11:19 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

"I thought they couldn't lose."

Ah ha! So we can trace your rampant pessimism back to that season!

Thanks for the info on the seizure. That's new to me.

by Sox Machine on Mar 28, 2008 2:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nick of time...

I don't want to lose Masset and get nothing of value in return. Letting him walk strikes me as a waste of his talent and/or potential.

"The championship pennants, oh long may they wave - O'er the grounds of the Sox and the Cubs gloomy grave." - 1906 Chicago Daily News

by DrCrawdad on Mar 28, 2008 7:25 AM CDT   0 recs

it could also be, cheat

that the sox are well aware that masset can walk and want to show him every bit of "respect" and provide him every opportunity and support in order to make him want to stay with the sox organization as opposed to free agency. i realize i'm looking at this as a more neutral observer than masset (who may think he's hot shit and the organization, not him, is the problem) but if i were him and i was receiving everything i seem to be getting from the sox, i'd probably want to stay here as opposed to trying my luck with another organization that may not have as much invested in me. it's not like masset really needs a change of scenery - he's been here for barely a year and, while he's worn out his welcome on SSS, he hasn't done so much damage in the minds of regular sox fans and newspaper columnists to be of the not welcome here ilk.

just another perspective.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 8:39 AM CDT   0 recs

Most reg fans I talk to

think Masset sucks. I cant defend my boy here. He is on an island.

by Tdogg on Mar 28, 2008 8:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah, they think he sucks

but i don't think anyone would be screaming and hollering if the sox were to call him up at some point in the season - especially a lost season. i probably wouldn't be either, if he were producing a decent line in AAA. my point is that this isn't a guy who has done so much damage to his reputation that your average sox fan is going to boo him at his first appearance. and i frankly think you oversstate who regular sox fans are, or at least how i define them. i'm not talking about season ticket holders. i'm talking about the casual fans who watch a few games a week and go to a few a year. i doubt most of them could pick masset out of a lineup, let alone recall his name.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 8:48 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

this is hilarious

there are some guys who can really hold a grudge but this guy takes the cake:

"Money can change any habit. Eight springs ago the Mets and Cubs opened the season, not in Cincinnati. Guess where? Tokyo. That Tokyo, the guys who gave us Pearl Harbor. Some people don’t like you to bring that up, trade with Japan is so hot. But I’ve got a long memory. I saw what a few bombs can do to our property."

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2008/03/cancel-baseball-cancel-sports-cancel.html

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 9:03 AM CDT   0 recs

Im still mad at the British

What they did in Boston was bullshit!

by Tdogg on Mar 28, 2008 9:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Those guys are great....

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Mar 28, 2008 9:10 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i read this earlier

and i thought "those cunning japanese." perhaps that's what this guy was thinking - they don't change, they're just waiting for their chance to pounce.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/specials/spring_training/2008/03/27/matsui.wedding.bet.ap/index.html

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 9:12 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Haha...

The last line of that article sums it all up

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Mar 28, 2008 9:20 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Inscrutable

Ma always told me "The Bible says the yellow race will rule the world!" when I was a kid. Perhaps because my bes friends' names were Yi and Mitsui.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Mar 28, 2008 11:23 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

dang, speculation

is all we have here for a couple of days.

If the 2008 Sox are about winning NOW (Williams' stated philosophy)-- then Wasserman has to make the club.

It might taste bad to KW but Masset can't make this club. "These ain't your daddy's White Sox." The MLB club is not an internship for wannabees and prospects.

Sooner or later in this league, guys with hot arms have to learn to pitch and get people out.

Masset hasn't gotten it done. Whether there is hope for the future or not, who knows. Maybe he will mature, maybe he's a career AAAA pitcher.

But Williams can't put him on the ML roster and say he wants to win this year.

If Masset walks, he walks. If somebody snarfs him up, so be it.

by ruffster on Mar 28, 2008 9:31 AM CDT   0 recs

What About Ohka?

I am a former Chicagoan living in Virginia and watching the Sox from afar. Tomo Ohka seemed to have a good spring and could perhaps fill that long relief role the Sox envision for Massett. I found very little written about him, though. Can anybody enlighten me about how the Sox see him fitting in, if at all, and whether we should even this guy is anything other than a washed up starter.

by VAChisox on Mar 28, 2008 9:32 AM CDT   0 recs

ohka

he was pretty much signed as filler for the charlotte rotation. to put him on the team, he'd have to be added to the 40 man, which i think the sox probably don't want to do at this point. there's no denying that he did what he was supposed to do in ST but he's really not that great of a pitcher to begin with and i'm not sure if he'd be well-suited for a relief role. i think he's likely to get a look at some point this season, probably in a spot start. he was atrocious last season but he may still have a little juice left to be a back-end starter.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 9:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And with our 3 backend pitchers

there's a good chance we may see him before the All Star game

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 28, 2008 9:44 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i dunno about that

broadway and haeger are probably up before him for sure. i'd bet egbert, too. sisco, if he performs, would be in that too. since he's not on the 40 the sox really would have to want to take a look. i was thinking they would maybe give him a start or some innings in september for sure, and perhaps something before that, as a courtesy. he really is in charlotte as filler. if the sox decide they want to move someone(s) up from birmingam, and there isn't a commensurate move to the big club from charlotte, he's going to get released.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 9:59 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

sisco

i think i recall the sox saying he's now back to being a reliever but they've jerked this guy around so much i can't keep it straight. so what i said only applies if he's still a starter. which seems to be quite fluid.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 10:03 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

True - I just lumped Ohka in there as a group

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 28, 2008 10:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Is Okha...

even going to pitch for Charlotte?

The impression I got (which may indeed be flawed) was that the Sox were just letting Ohka showcase his abilities this spring, so he could sign with a team that might have more of a need for him.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 28, 2008 10:33 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

he's been on their roster the whole month

i think it was flawed because he probably would have been released instead of assigned to minor league camp if that were the plan.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 10:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'd have

to disagree with the "no chance he would remain in the org." I mean why wouldn't he remain in an organization where he is clearly valued more highly than any other organization? I mean realistically would he even be in the discussion of making the team with any other organization? The guy has no chance to make the major league roster of any team. So would he rather go to AAA of the team that values him most highly or some other org?

I'd put the chances of him clearing waivers and going to Charlotte at 50-60% vs choosing to go to some other orgs AAA team (0% chance to be in the majors opening day).

by bhoov on Mar 28, 2008 10:13 AM CDT   0 recs

i note

that charlotte still needs a fifth starter.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 10:19 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

how many other orgs wold be impressed with a guy whose ERA high enough to require FAA approval?

by ruffster on Mar 28, 2008 11:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Masset

it sucks that we are going to lose him for nothing, but it sucks even more than we are going to have to burn one of our starters in waiting as a long man on the big club. Mop-up innings are EXTREMELY important on a contending club, especially one with injury-prone relievers like the Sox. We need someone to eat innings when we want to pack a game in for the night, or when a starter throws too many pitches in an outing. Masset was supposed to be this guy, but has shown that his breaking ball rolls in the desert and his head gets in front of his ability. It really sucks, but it has to be done. Wass is the more effective pitcher, but now we need to find someone to take in that rubber-arm role. Why oh why couldnt we find our own Scot Shields?

by Rockraines on Mar 28, 2008 10:23 AM CDT   0 recs

or broadway

haegar make actually end up being a legitimate starter one day. broadway, not so much. if the sox were actually intent on keeping a long man, which i don't think they are, he would be the best option.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 10:30 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Can Haeger eat innings?

I know this has been discussed, but he's not done much with each shot he gets at the major league level. I know the knucksie can be thrown even at my age but he's got to have some level of effectiveness.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Mar 28, 2008 11:26 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

which is why i think he needs to be starting regularly to get a feel for the pitch

as opposed to sitting in the bullpen getting a few innings here and there. six innings in charlotte every five days is much better.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 11:28 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Was he not pitching regularly

in Charlotte last year? And when he came up (and he, with a good performance or two, would've stuck) he was lit up like a pinball machine. How long before he gets the feel of it? Does he need to be Jim Bouton-esque in terms of age/arm strength?

I've just never been a fan of Haeger. I'd take Broadway in a second.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Mar 28, 2008 11:31 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and what JRE said

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It takes a long time...

to develop a good knuckleball. Even guys who have done it for years have trouble on occasion.

Haeger isn't yet able to find the "feel for his knuckleball on a consistent basis. It's a matter of time and, most importantly, patience.

I believe that 2008 is his last option year (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I have no problem with him starting in Charlotte this year - a job at the major-league level as mop-up man won't help him - but I hope that next year the Sox give him a real chance before letting him walk.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 28, 2008 11:29 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

LOL. Foiled again, JRE!

larry trumps all. I'm learning to sit and wait for it rather than try to get in quickly.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Mar 28, 2008 11:32 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

he was pretty decent in 06

and that was out of the pen.

by Tdogg on Mar 28, 2008 11:33 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Beginner's luck?

'06 was decades ago....

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Mar 28, 2008 11:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

actually in 06 as a reliever

he was ridiculous. Small sample though.

by Tdogg on Mar 28, 2008 11:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

confusion.

i don't understand this "we have to get something of value to dump masset" train of thought. why would anybody give up anything, let alone aplayer of value, for a guy with a career line like his who either has lost velocity, or never had the velocity and instead throws a straight-as-an-arrow 93 mph fastball?

"This has been a very long campaign so, occasionally I am a human being like everybody else. Last week for the first time in 12 or so years, I misspoke."

by Toonderstrook on Mar 28, 2008 10:33 AM CDT   0 recs

i don't understand it either

KW can say whatever he wants about masset. he was a throw-in. it didn't work out. i don't like dumping assets for nothing, either, but when that's what their value is, c'est la vie. at any rate, it's likely we will get something of value: waiver fees are valuable, after all. and i feel fairly confident that if we don't get that we have the privilege of keeping him for another season at charlotte.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 10:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Actually - wasn't Danks the throw in?

I thought KW was after Masset and the amazing technicolor fastball

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 28, 2008 10:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lol

i believe the sell was that KW wanted both equally. which, as we all know, is a load of horseshit considering how much/long KW had coveted danks.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 10:49 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The real question is

What happened to Jacob Rasner?

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 28, 2008 11:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It's crazy because...

it seems like as many people are saying we need to get something back for Massett as are saying to just dump Crede already and cut their losses. I realize it's probably not the same people saying these two things but it still seems curious.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 11:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think...

the only person saying that the Sox need to get something back for Masset is Crawdad.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Mar 28, 2008 11:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Rockraines too.

He's disappointed we aren't going to get anything in return, plus I believe there are a few others in different areas of the site. It's been a LONG time since I believed Masset would get anything in return. Since...when did he first pitch for the Sox?

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 12:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

he's having lunch with

michael dubee.

"This has been a very long campaign so, occasionally I am a human being like everybody else. Last week for the first time in 12 or so years, I misspoke."

by Toonderstrook on Mar 28, 2008 11:03 AM CDT   0 recs

FanShots.

Is anyone looking at the FanShots at all? I posted one last night and it seems like the link would've been seen more had I just posted it as a comment up here. I know I personally haven't had much time to get that far down the page. And I haven't even been at work all week!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 12:18 PM CDT   0 recs

i agree about fanshots

i always liked how on SSS everything was in one thread - links, comments on everything in the last x hours since the thread was posted. on the new site there seems to be a bit of a decentralization of stuff if people are posting things in fanshots. i'd rather it was all in one thread.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 12:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Now you have to market your FanShots.

Hey, Larry, I think you should really check out the link I provided in the FanShots section of this web-site. I think it's right up your alley! After you've read it if you could just click the "recommend" button at the bottom of the page to show your appreciation, that'd be great. Thanks, friendo!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 12:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i'll click yours if you click mine

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 12:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hey, great!

This is turning into reality tv!

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 12:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

somebody

i'll not name names, sent me the link to that article yesterday so that's why i didn't "view" it before.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 12:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It was Nick Silver, wasn't it.

Nice guy! Lettin' everyone know when he gets press.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 12:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

close

and i don't just mean in name ;) no, he's not that conceited.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 12:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

*Nate, rather.

Nick Masset on the mind

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 12:48 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree, respectfully

Throwing everything into one big thread is a bug, not a feature, from my perspective. I like having different places where different conversations can proceed simultaneously. Having the running banter of quickly written, relatively short comments is great for the main, top-of-the-page posting and game threads. If the top post changes, the banter can just move to the new thread. But I also like having some threads that are more drawn out and, hopefully, a little more developed. Those seem like the kinds of things that belong in the Fanposts. My suggestion has been to find a way to move the Fanposts summary up on page so that everyone can seem them easily and contribute. When you look at the views numbers, its pretty clear most people aren't looking at the Fanposts as they're currently configured. I guess that means that, de facto, Larry has what he wants - all the action is in the one main thread - but, like I said, I see that as a bug.

by Landfill on Mar 28, 2008 1:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

i have no problem with the fanposts; we had those on the old site

i'm talking about the stuff that fanshots seems designed for.

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by larry on Mar 28, 2008 1:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Ideally...

This section should have its own scroll bar so that the items to the right could be always seen on the side - though in a more minimized size - seems like a lot of dead space separating items + the add takes up a lot (and is slow to run!)

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 28, 2008 1:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Here's my problem...

and I hope I don't offend anyone. I think the FanShots section is being overused by the people who could be putting links and quotes in main posts (sorry, Cheat & Wiz). A lot of the stuff they included in gamethreads and recaps is now being put down in FanShots, which I think should be saved more for the rest of us who aren't on the Main Stage.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 28, 2008 1:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

get him!

we'll throw him in the lake, and if he floats he's a witch!

"This has been a very long campaign so, occasionally I am a human being like everybody else. Last week for the first time in 12 or so years, I misspoke."

by Toonderstrook on Mar 28, 2008 1:42 PM CDT to parent up   1 recs

But what else floats?

So instead of a big splash, there were ripples -- enough to change the tide, Williams believes

by Brush Back on Mar 28, 2008 1:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs