Eugenio Velez: The next Pablo Ozuna?
Eugenio Velez is a name you should know for all the wrong reasons.One prospect received most of the column-inches; Eugenio Velez, a speedy 25 year-old (26 in May) with just 29 at-bats above AA. I just so happened to catch a a glimpse of Velez in the Cubs game on CSN Sunday. In fact, when Len Kasper said his name as he stepped up to the plate for the first time, I payed particular attention because I remembered him ranking as the Giants #7 prospect by Baseball America mixed in with a bunch of guys who I wouldn't mind acquiring in a Crede trade. Let's just say, I hope the Sox weren't watching.
Velez inside-outed a fastball weakly back up the middle for a looping base hit, then immediately stole two bases. He added a third later in the game to make him 6-6 on the young spring. Velez is exactly what the Sox seem to crave, and exactly what they don't need; a natural 2B, future utility man, who has already bounced between the infield and outfield, never displayed any plate discipline in the minors, and has had one good minor league season under his belt while being old for his league. But he's fast.
The most obvious trade in Kenny Williams tenure as White Sox GM just got more obvious.
If you want a recap of the Sox split squad games, AZ Snake Pit was at one of them. They seem surprised that Greg Walker hasn't been able to help Carlos Quentin lay off low and away sliders.
I'm sure Jim will have something up sometime tomorrow. (Sunday was his last day, so it might take a little bit longer for the last update because of travel.) I just have no interest in discussing the viability of Nick Masset as a starter after 3 successful innings in Mexico.
0 recs |
141 comments
Comments
1st televised game today at 2:00 (CST)
by Chiburb on Mar 3, 2008 7:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
CSN will replay the game at 7:00
by Winning is Fung on Mar 3, 2008 7:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I could see Lowry coming over...
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
More importantly,
by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 8:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
no shit
by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 9:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
chicago tough?
by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 9:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at the picture?
by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I laughed.
by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What are the chances that
Sub "Locks"
Hall
Ozuna
Quentin/Owens
25th spot options
Bourgeois
Richar
Anderson
Ramirez
Actually 4 decent possibilities. Bourgeoisez from Venezuela would be a lock.
by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 8:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
probably about nil
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think if the Sox truly believe....
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why do we
by Not Fooling Anyone on Mar 3, 2008 9:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why would the As want Crede?
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis is indeed a major upgrade....
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't we have better production from Iguchi?
by Winning is Fung on Mar 3, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes we did....
You bring up a great point though.
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis
He is a minor upgrade, but is a free agent after this season. Same salary as Crede.
With Uribe, Richar and Ramirez all fighting it out for 2B...I would just rather leave that position alone unless we are getting Roberts.
I guess it depends on what we can get back for Crede, though...and maybe if we can include Juan in the trade to SF.
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and one likely provides
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I assume Crede....
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what A type are we talking then?
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
which player i mean
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis
by 3E8 on Mar 3, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on what you are looking for
If Richar or Ramirez show signs of hitting ML pitching, I would rather have them getting groomed at 2B and a prospect or two than Ellis for one year.
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My confidence ranking of our relievers......
- Jenks
- Dotel
- Wasserman
- Logan
- Thornton
- Linebrink
- MacDougal
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 10:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I would agree
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
...and
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i'll begin to care about that
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming Bobby and Dotel can be a consistent
Pathetic though that we have to "hope" that Linebrink is good. It's obviously been belabored on this board, but you just shouldn't have to "hope" when you give a guy a contract like he was given.
by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Linebrink
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many 2B do we need?
by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Defense
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, so...
BTW, what is the Sox single season record for homeruns? I'd say the odds are fairly high that we beat that.
by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Scoring
I think the Sox could score a fair amount of runs if they stay healthy. But, with Konerko, Thome, Dye and Cabrera all 32 and over...there could be some long injuries.
Health, the bullpen and the back end starters are the 3 big keys for the Sox this year. I think all three need to be great for the sox to have a chance in the division.
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You started it, Cheat.
"Odds and Ends: Ponson, Inge, Papelbon" AND Velez.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/03/odds-and-ends-p.html
by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 10:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Is that a sick joke on MLBtraderumors?
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what tim wrote
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he didn't happen to source it did he?
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
glad to see my skepticism was misplaced
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
From today's Cowley article.
Owens has been up 11 times this spring. I think he's hit the ball out of the infield twice. Amazing for a major league ballplayer (seemingly being handed a starting job).
I hope Carlos Quentin keeps his cool.
by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 10:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oh Christ the co-GMs are on this too
Next will be Paulie chiming in.
by southsideirish71 on Mar 3, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he's right
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Diversification (generally) reduces risk
Anything wrong with fast, powerful, young guys? We seem to be missing that asset class.
(We don't want fast - though quickly declining, non-powerful, aging guys.)
by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
2006
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What's the only stat that matters?
by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's the Reality Distortion Field
I've decided to embrace it. I'm working on a mantra that I can repeat while watching a LF with a .600 OPS this season. So far, I'm going with:
"Speed doesn't slump.
Speed distracts pitchers.
Speed turns singles into doubles and triples.
Speed sets the table for the heart of the order."
by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, Einstein
by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Soccer stats
soccer statistics are quite advanced - they're much further along, i'd say, than in baseball - but, like in both, there's a lot left to do. should be interesting to see what they come up with.
I'm pretty sure colin is interested as well, but can you elaborate a bit? Maybe I'm confused about the relativity of "quite advanced", but I've always seen baseball as the furthest along. Soccer, like basketball, football and hockey, seems like more of a team sport and thus harder to quantify statistically whereas baseball is inherently a one-on-one battle, making it a little easier to quantify. I could be persuaded otherwise, but that's just how -- as I italicized -- it seems.
I'm also curious as to what statistics they're improving upon. The one I've heard as sort of controversial is the 'distance covered' stat, which -- admittedly not putting a whole lot of thought into it -- doesn't seem like a great way to measure a player's value. Then again, that's just an initial thought and may be considered ignorant for not really knowing a whole lot about it.
by CWSKeith on Mar 3, 2008 11:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
they're different sports
the main area they're improving upon is "tying" things together. by that i mean, they've had certain stats in isolation. but, in contrast to say baseball or gridiron football, which are more start and stop sports, football tends to be more free-flowing. so, in many cases, there is a greater need than in baseball to see how certain stats tie together or even certain players work together. measuring "compatability" - for example, between a winger and striker or a central midfielder and a forward - can provide information on who is best suited to play with whom. and, by extension, one can make extrapolations based upon the sort of player with whom another player works best (like wingers who provide a certain type of ball into the box) and then acquire that type of player and thus create a synergy.
to put it simply, football had a head start in using statistcs like this. they started off being crude - you mentioned the distance traveled stat, which has been around forever - but have grown more refined. i think they're more advanced because of the stuff i can see as a fan. but i suppose there's the element of the unknown regarding what proprietary stuff teams in both sports are using.
frankly, one of the major problems with baseball statistics is the near total disarray defensive metrics are in. and only this season did we get access to in-depth pitch by pitch stats.
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
don't tell gary huckaby
that piece he did smacked heavily of controversy for controversy's sake.
and are any of these stats not the exclusive domain of the teams in question?
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i loathe him
sure, plenty is out there. opta provides a decent spread to lots of major outlets - which is another reason i'd say things are more advanced. such stats are generally accepted and used by mainstream media and fans. this may be, in part, because football lends itself to some degree to guys who "work hard." or, as the english say, put in the graft. so guys who are fan favorites because their major skill is that they "give 110%" actually often translates to them being useful players [obviously with the caveat that they need some secondary skills, as well, largely marking/tackling skills].
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what are major outlets? i really have no idea
and i'm glad you agree with huckaby. that was shite. i haven't had my subscription long enough to have had more interactions with him, but his chats are short and uninformative and his rare articles blow.
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 8:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, when I glanced at this in the other thread...
by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah i'll second this for sure
by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
boy, i tell ya, dj
dj: no doubt.
hawk: we've had some roster turnover - tablesetters of the likes of darin erstad, scott podsednik, and andy gonzalez are gone. but we've still got an exciting young baseball player in jerry owens to put at the top of the order in the leadoff position and we've made some big acquisitions like nick swisher, alexei ramirez, and scott linebrink. but i'm most excited about jerry.
dj: no question.
hawk: dadgum right. jerry has been working hard on his bunting this offseason and so far this spring. and it's certainly paid off. i expect jerry to bat over .300 and steal a whole lotta bases. he's got a real chance to be something special and reignite that magic we had in '05.
dj: [unintelligible]
hawk: oh yeah. you bet. we got 'em right where we want 'em, dj. so sit back, relax, and strap it down, white sox spring training baseball from surprise, arizona comin' your way next.
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I was about to reply
by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
there seems to be a misapprehension
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I just tend to think
by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i was actually hoping
corporate reorganizations and bankruptcies.
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Larry,
should be
"jerry has been working REALLY hard on his bunting this offseason......"
CLASSIC
by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 12:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
ballyb
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No.
by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i tell ya, bally
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I gotta agree with ya Hawk
by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gosh Hawk, I wonder
by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I gotta tell DJ
by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no way they'd break that out in ST
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Velez...
Why do we need another? Why not a corner OF/IF type? We have absolutely NONE of those guys... except maybe Eldred, I think.
by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 12:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
McCovey Chronicles
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/story/2008/3/3/113128/5578
by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 12:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
they've never been
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
right
by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, this is Toonder's new peer group
by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can say from experience
I would equate Giant's fans with Cubs fans, on the whole. And the fact that their stadium is a social experience, a place to see and be seen, makes the comparison all the more appropriate.
by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention they're dirty commie hippies
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like your fire, larry
Just calling it like I see it.
by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On the whole though?
by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
Therefore, I can't say that all Giants fans are morons, just most of the ones I've encountered.
OT - I see their attendance taking a huge hit this year now that Bonds is gone. It will be interesting to how much the attendance drops.
by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
intelligent people
by larry on Mar 4, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Weaker.
The commenters aren't responding to The Cheat's analysis, but to his speculation that this could be the possible trade. I read exactly one response from someone who completely misses the point, calling the deal "wishful thinking" on the part of The Cheat.
I don't get how you infer that the readership of an entire blog is unintelligent from that thread, so I feel compelled to defend them.
by Grant on Mar 4, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
because i read the blog
by larry on Mar 4, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"what i think about the site...."
by Grant on Mar 4, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's your site, i'd imagine you would
by larry on Mar 4, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Frankly, I think the site sucks...
by SSH2005 on Mar 5, 2008 12:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even better
by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i really dont care
by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if only cheat had made the comment
:p
by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are 32 replies over there
by The Cheat on Mar 3, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
looks like my comment
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
goldstein on velez today
Kevin Goldstein: I'm not a big Velez believer at all. He's kinda 75% of Chone Figgins. He's very fast and can play multiple positions, but he's really not good at any up the middle position other than second base and he has no plate discipline. For me, he's closer to Freddy Bynum than Chone Figgins.
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:56 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hilarious
by The Cheat on Mar 3, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't really mind bynum
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
remember our Q's for richar's winter ball play
Richar revealed that he had a back injury this winter that limited him to 78 at-bats with Azucareros of Dominican Winter League.
"I think everything is going to be OK," Richar said. "I trust myself and I'm ready to play hard and show them I'm ready."
by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 1:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
yup, just what i'd be doing if i was hurt
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He is proving he is Chicago tough
by southsideirish71 on Mar 3, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
somehow i doubt
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Young kid with a back injury
Sound familiar?
by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the legend on velez
by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 1:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
When did mlb's marketing slogan
by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
o god the legend is selling him to us...
by Jbasic89 on Mar 3, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well if the Giants are even open to trading Velez
by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Forget Southpaw
http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/classicsonic.jpg
by southsideirish71 on Mar 3, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
paulie on crede/fields
''From one standpoint I understand that [the front office] isn't going to have everything figured out just three or four spring games in,'' Konerko said. ''But for the rest of the team, all things considered, the quicker we know, the better. We don't want it turning into something like a quarterback controversy. I think that's what the rest of the team is feeling -- the longer it gets dragged out, it's not good.
you see, with all the crede/fields distraction plus the bad weather we couldn't get going april...
by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 1:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I like how this sounds -
Good to see he's taking the "C" a bit more seriously.
by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i don't care
by Toonderstrook on Mar 3, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about a Punting
by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no doubt
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Closer to the truth than you think
Maybe even baseball players, with arguably the easiest (less dangerous) major sports job (except punter, maybe) want to be stars in other sports.
by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
with paulie coming out like that
by Jbasic89 on Mar 3, 2008 1:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
seriously doubt it
by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So Quentin almost hits a bomb that goes foul...
Who the hell wants XBH's?!? Let's stick with slappy Owens!
by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
sox scouting lowry
The scout didn't see much to get excited about, according to a witness.
Lowry walked seven and heaved two wild pitches in the first inning.
In the second, Lowry walked the first two batters on nine pitches, then threw a pickoff attempt into the stands before Giants manager Bruce Bochy pulled him. Lowry didn't strike out any of the 12 batters he faced.
Lowry is signed through 2009 at about $6.75 million, but the Sox might be better served settling for a package of prospects including left-hander Jonathan Sanchez in any deal involving third baseman Joe Crede.
may get lost in the gamethread...
by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 3:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the conflicting reports...
by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"A package of prospects...
I sure hope Brian Sabean is as dumb as Mark Gonzales.
by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Danks looked great today...
by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Brad Eldred kills lefties...
by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Lineupology from joe sheehan
Get your best hitters the most plate appearances
Guys who get on base should bat in front of guys who hit for power
Within reason, separate same-side hitters, to make life hard for platoon-centric managers
That's pretty much it. There are a number of less-important guidelines, some of which run counter to conventional managerial wisdom. For example, just about everyone inside baseball thinks speed is one of the most important qualities for a leadoff batter. In fact, because middle-of-the-lineup batters are generally the ones most likely to hit the ball a long way, speed isn't that critical. Add in that the cost/benefit of a stolen-base attempt is worst when a good hitter is at the plate--the out costs more, the base means less--and speed is actually not that important in the top two lineup spots. Speed and stolen-base attempts both have more value in the fifth and sixth spots, in front of the worst batters in the seventh through ninth slots, who are more likely to make outs and less likely to pick up extra-base hits.
article is free.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7201
nothing earth-shattering but some interesting thoughts for the uninitiated.
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 3:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bah, that's BS
Here's the OBP for our table setters based on 50th percentile PECOTA 2008 projections. Uribe, Owens and Cabrera will be back-back-back once we get past the 1st inning:
Juan Uribe .299
Jerry Owens .311
Orlando Cabrera .317
Thomer better tie his shoelaces tight, because he's going to coming out of his shoes swinging for the fences when the bases are empty every time he comes up.
This Cabrera trade annoys me the most of anything we did this winter. They're fluffing him up like Erstad II, but his projections look like crap and he's an old SS so I can't believe his D will be any better than AVG. One year of this guy is the best we could do for Garland, cripes.
by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with all that...
I think it's a horrible example of lineup construction to have Soriano bat after the pitcher. How many leadoff homeruns did Soriano have last year? In last September? Stupid Lou.
by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 7:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
should say...
by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A-Ram with a 3 RBI stand-up triple!
by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:29 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
you know the game thread is the other thread,
by larry on Mar 3, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TOONDER
by Not Fooling Anyone on Mar 3, 2008 4:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yes.
by Toonderstrook on Mar 3, 2008 4:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does not compute
Sox Man? Heritage Meadows?
by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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