Eugenio Velez: The next Pablo Ozuna?

by The Cheat on Mar 3, 2008 1:31 AM CST in White Sox News

Eugenio Velez is a name you should know for all the wrong reasons.

I entered the name Joe Crede, as a potential trade target, into my Google Alerts sometime last May. I like to keep extra close tabs on the guys who I suspect are on the trade block. So tonight when I saw the headline Some sunny prospects for Giants' future in my inbox labeled Crede, I thought 'hey this must be an article about some of the guys we might be able to get for Crede.' Turns out the "prospects" mentioned are all of the low-ceilinged, very-close-to-contributing variety.

One prospect received most of the column-inches; Eugenio Velez, a speedy 25 year-old (26 in May) with just 29 at-bats above AA. I just so happened to catch a a glimpse of Velez in the Cubs game on CSN Sunday. In fact, when Len Kasper said his name as he stepped up to the plate for the first time, I payed particular attention because I remembered him ranking as the Giants #7 prospect by Baseball America mixed in with a bunch of guys who I wouldn't mind acquiring in a Crede trade. Let's just say, I hope the Sox weren't watching.

Velez inside-outed a fastball weakly back up the middle for a looping base hit, then immediately stole two bases. He added a third later in the game to make him 6-6 on the young spring. Velez is exactly what the Sox seem to crave, and exactly what they don't need; a natural 2B, future utility man, who has already bounced between the infield and outfield, never displayed any plate discipline in the minors, and has had one good minor league season under his belt while being old for his league. But he's fast.

The most obvious trade in Kenny Williams tenure as White Sox GM just got more obvious.

* * * * *

If you want a recap of the Sox split squad games, AZ Snake Pit was at one of them. They seem surprised that Greg Walker hasn't been able to help Carlos Quentin lay off low and away sliders.

I'm sure Jim will have something up sometime tomorrow. (Sunday was his last day, so it might take a little bit longer for the last update because of travel.) I just have no interest in discussing the viability of Nick Masset as a starter after 3 successful innings in Mexico.

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1st televised game today at 2:00 (CST)

Will you be watching?

Next time, Bhoov, do some research.

by Chiburb on Mar 3, 2008 7:32 AM CST reply actions

CSN will replay the game at 7:00

...as for the inevitable Crede trade, my expectations for a return are so low at this point that I can't get worked up over someone like Velez. In my mind, it's just a salary dump. I know I'd be pissed if KW traded a top prospect for a one-year rental of a below-average offensive player comming off back surgery.

by Winning is Fung on Mar 3, 2008 7:52 AM CST up reply actions

I could see Lowry coming over...

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 9:44 AM CST up reply actions

More importantly,

did Velez "look like a ballplayer"? Was his uniform dirty after he stole those bases? Why don't you tell us about the things that really matter?

by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 8:09 AM CST reply actions

no shit

Can he handle the bat? Does he have swagger? C'mon, what kind of scouting report is this?

"Swisher's versatility allows us to give Owens a chance to come back and show he's ready to be that sparkplug like Podsednik was a couple of years ago." - KW

by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 9:01 AM CST up reply actions

chicago tough?

can he play for the blue-collar fans? does he know what ozzie-ball is?

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 9:06 AM CST up reply actions

Look at the picture?

There's a load of dirt right there under his glove.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:03 AM CST up reply actions

could be doctored

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions

I laughed.

It does look fairly dubious though. How did they get the sun to only shine on that dirt spot?

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:09 AM CST up reply actions

What are the chances that

Jason Bourgeois makes the team?

Sub "Locks"

Hall
Ozuna
Quentin/Owens

25th spot options

Bourgeois
Richar
Anderson
Ramirez

Actually 4 decent possibilities. Bourgeoisez from Venezuela would be a lock.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 8:17 AM CST reply actions

probably about nil

though you could make a decent argument that he'd be more valuable than every other player you mention.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 9:24 AM CST up reply actions

I think if the Sox truly believe....

that Crede is healthy they should just make Sabean wait for a few more weeks. Sure the risk is there in that his back problems will flare up, or he gets hit on the elbow by a 95 mph heater, but in the end I don't think we are expecting a truly significant haul from SF (unless it's Lowry) and he's only a 5 mil dollar liability for '08.

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:39 AM CST reply actions

Why do we

need another Danny Richar/Ozuna/Ramirez? I like the rumor that we are interested in Mark Ellis. Although I think we would have gotten him with Swish if that were feasable. Maybe trading Crede for prospects the A's covet could do the trick.

by Not Fooling Anyone on Mar 3, 2008 9:39 AM CST reply actions

Why would the As want Crede?

they already have Chavez (even though I think he's hurt right now). Unless you are suggesting we move the prospects from SF to Oak to get Ellis?

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:41 AM CST up reply actions

beane loves a three-way

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 9:42 AM CST up reply actions

Ellis is indeed a major upgrade....

especially if his OBP returned to '05 number (.384). It was .336 and .319 the last two seasons.

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions

Didn't we have better production from Iguchi?

Maybe Beane would take Michael Dubee for Ellis straight up? ;-)

by Winning is Fung on Mar 3, 2008 9:52 AM CST up reply actions

Yes we did....

the upside of Ellis from Iguchi would be a return to his '05 OBP (.384) and better defense (I think, though Iguchi was never a defensive liability IMO).

You bring up a great point though.

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 9:57 AM CST up reply actions

Ellis

Has had an up and down career. Every other year he stinks.

He is a minor upgrade, but is a free agent after this season. Same salary as Crede.

With Uribe, Richar and Ramirez all fighting it out for 2B...I would just rather leave that position alone unless we are getting Roberts.

I guess it depends on what we can get back for Crede, though...and maybe if we can include Juan in the trade to SF.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

and one likely provides

B compensation, while the other has a real chance at providing A compensation.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions

I assume Crede....

is the one who could return "A" compensation?

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST up reply actions

no

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:07 AM CST up reply actions

what A type are we talking then?

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions

free agent compensation, of course

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:40 AM CST up reply actions

which player i mean

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 8:07 PM CST up reply actions

Ellis

see below

by 3E8 on Mar 3, 2008 10:44 PM CST up reply actions

Ellis

missed type A status by two players with his '06-'07 numbers (he was second best type B). And '06 he was below average offensively. With a decent '08 offensively he will gain type A status. That may be what Beane is weighing right now. Is what I can get through trade more valuable than the uncertainty or either 1/2 draft picks.

by 3E8 on Mar 3, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions

Depends on what you are looking for

I would take Ellis over Uribe all day at 2B.

If Richar or Ramirez show signs of hitting ML pitching, I would rather have them getting groomed at 2B and a prospect or two than Ellis for one year.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:13 AM CST up reply actions

ellis

is a redundancy for a redundancy for a redundancy. uribe and someone else would need to get moved before it makes sense.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions

We

should be doing all we can to pry away Correia...he is the longman/possible starter we need. He could even take Linebrink's job as soon as he struggles.

by dantesox on Mar 3, 2008 9:46 AM CST up reply actions

My confidence ranking of our relievers......

Jenks
Dotel
Wasserman
Logan
Thornton
Linebrink
MacDougal

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 10:00 AM CST reply actions

I would agree

...maybe flip flop Thornton and Linebrink. Maybe.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:01 AM CST up reply actions

wow

sixth most confident for linebrink? okay, the signing was bad. but it's mostly because he'll still be here in four years. he's rather likely to be more than serviceable this season. logan, i might remind people, has a career WHIP of 1.691. and gets obliterated by righties. and if logan gets obliterated by righties, i don't know the words for how wasserman gets treated by lefties. totally and utterly obliterated? at least linebrink can reasonably deal with both sides.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:16 AM CST up reply actions

...and

give up the (more than) occasional long ball.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:18 AM CST up reply actions

i'll begin to care about that

in this comparison when the other guys have similar OPS against. i'm not particularly concerned about the home run if that's about all a pitcher gives up.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:22 AM CST up reply actions

Assuming Bobby and Dotel can be a consistent

1-2 punch (perhaps a big assumption given Dotel's durability, or lack thereof), the major question is can Linebrink or MacDougal step up. If one of them returns to form then the Sox certainly have one of the better pens (from the right side) in baseball.

Pathetic though that we have to "hope" that Linebrink is good. It's obviously been belabored on this board, but you just shouldn't have to "hope" when you give a guy a contract like he was given.

by stanchar on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST reply actions

Linebrink

Signing was the worst of the offseason.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:11 AM CST up reply actions

How many 2B do we need?

We could possibly have FIVE guys fighting for the 2B position after we trade away our extra (second) 3B? And how terrible is our defense going to be this year, anyway? It seems like every move that's been made has brought worse defense with it.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:06 AM CST reply actions

Defense

Might be really sad this year..and a little worse than last year. But, the upgrades of Swisher and Cabrera with the bat will ease my stomach better than Uribe, Erstad/Pods with the bat.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:15 AM CST up reply actions

Ah, so...

basically, we'll be in close high-scoring games until the bullpen comes in this year instead of close low-scoring games until the bullpen comes in, like last year. Should make for more excitement!

BTW, what is the Sox single season record for homeruns? I'd say the odds are fairly high that we beat that.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 10:28 AM CST up reply actions

Scoring

I think runs scored against the Sox starters will be slightly higher due to the loss of Garland and the defense being a little bit worse.

I think the Sox could score a fair amount of runs if they stay healthy. But, with Konerko, Thome, Dye and Cabrera all 32 and over...there could be some long injuries.

Health, the bullpen and the back end starters are the 3 big keys for the Sox this year. I think all three need to be great for the sox to have a chance in the division.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:47 AM CST up reply actions

You started it, Cheat.

MLBTradeRumors.com

"Odds and Ends: Ponson, Inge, Papelbon" AND Velez.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/03/odds-and-ends-p.html

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 10:33 AM CST reply actions

Is that a sick joke on MLBtraderumors?

Or did they really not read the rest of the entry?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions

what tim wrote

summarizes exactly what cheat wrote.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

he didn't happen to source it did he?

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:20 AM CST up reply actions

of course

always does

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:23 AM CST up reply actions

glad to see my skepticism was misplaced

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

From today's Cowley article.

"Owens entered camp in a three-way battle with Carlos Quentin and Brian Anderson for one starting vacancy, and while Quentin and Anderson each have impressed, Owens has stood out early."

Owens has been up 11 times this spring. I think he's hit the ball out of the infield twice. Amazing for a major league ballplayer (seemingly being handed a starting job).

I hope Carlos Quentin keeps his cool.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 10:52 AM CST reply actions

Oh Christ the co-GMs are on this too

''We're actually doing some different things at the top of the lineup, but our key is Jerry Owens being our center fielder and our leadoff guy,'' outfielder Jermaine Dye said. ''It all starts at the top of the lineup, like it does with any club. The way we won in '05 was [Scott] Podsednik got on base, and the guys in the middle drove him in.''

Next will be Paulie chiming in.

by southsideirish71 on Mar 3, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

he's right

the sox did win when pods was providing league average offense (i'm using Eqa here). the problem, of course, is exactly what dye said: they won --in 2005-- when pods got on base and everyone else drove him in. didn't work well in 2006 . and certainly didn't work in 2007. owens has shown such an ability for one month when he also had the advantage of facing lots of teams that were 1) out of the playoff race and 2) trotting out AAAA players just like him.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:01 AM CST up reply actions

Diversification (generally) reduces risk

So we have slow, powerful, aging guys and fast, non-powerful, (relatively) young guys.

Anything wrong with fast, powerful, young guys? We seem to be missing that asset class.

(We don't want fast - though quickly declining, non-powerful, aging guys.)

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 11:17 AM CST up reply actions

2006

It worked real well the first half of 2006. Pods was fighting injuries the entire second half...partially to blame for collapse in 06.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions

What's the only stat that matters?

Wins. Look at the Sox record with Pods leading off. Irrefutable proof that speed wins games.

by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

It's the Reality Distortion Field

It's clear that Owens is so damn fast that he actually alters the space-time continuum and changes the reality of anyone observing him.

I've decided to embrace it. I'm working on a mantra that I can repeat while watching a LF with a .600 OPS this season. So far, I'm going with:

"Speed doesn't slump.
Speed distracts pitchers.
Speed turns singles into doubles and triples.
Speed sets the table for the heart of the order."

by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions

Well put, Einstein

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 11:07 AM CST up reply actions

OT: Soccer stats

Larry, you mentioned this in another thread:

soccer statistics are quite advanced - they're much further along, i'd say, than in baseball - but, like in both, there's a lot left to do. should be interesting to see what they come up with.

I'm pretty sure colin is interested as well, but can you elaborate a bit? Maybe I'm confused about the relativity of "quite advanced", but I've always seen baseball as the furthest along. Soccer, like basketball, football and hockey, seems like more of a team sport and thus harder to quantify statistically whereas baseball is inherently a one-on-one battle, making it a little easier to quantify. I could be persuaded otherwise, but that's just how -- as I italicized -- it seems.

I'm also curious as to what statistics they're improving upon. The one I've heard as sort of controversial is the 'distance covered' stat, which -- admittedly not putting a whole lot of thought into it -- doesn't seem like a great way to measure a player's value. Then again, that's just an initial thought and may be considered ignorant for not really knowing a whole lot about it.

by CWSKeith on Mar 3, 2008 11:00 AM CST reply actions

they're different sports

as you point out. what you're measuring and what's most important (and how easy/hard that is to quantify) is different for each.

the main area they're improving upon is "tying" things together. by that i mean, they've had certain stats in isolation. but, in contrast to say baseball or gridiron football, which are more start and stop sports, football tends to be more free-flowing. so, in many cases, there is a greater need than in baseball to see how certain stats tie together or even certain players work together. measuring "compatability" - for example, between a winger and striker or a central midfielder and a forward - can provide information on who is best suited to play with whom. and, by extension, one can make extrapolations based upon the sort of player with whom another player works best (like wingers who provide a certain type of ball into the box) and then acquire that type of player and thus create a synergy.

to put it simply, football had a head start in using statistcs like this. they started off being crude - you mentioned the distance traveled stat, which has been around forever - but have grown more refined. i think they're more advanced because of the stuff i can see as a fan. but i suppose there's the element of the unknown regarding what proprietary stuff teams in both sports are using.

frankly, one of the major problems with baseball statistics is the near total disarray defensive metrics are in. and only this season did we get access to in-depth pitch by pitch stats.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions

don't tell gary huckaby

"frankly, one of the major problems with baseball statistics is the near total disarray defensive metrics are in. and only this season did we get access to in-depth pitch by pitch stats."

that piece he did smacked heavily of controversy for controversy's sake.

and are any of these stats not the exclusive domain of the teams in question?

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:27 AM CST up reply actions

i loathe him

i was glad when he didn't write anymore and it's good that his return is only the intermittent piece.

sure, plenty is out there. opta provides a decent spread to lots of major outlets - which is another reason i'd say things are more advanced. such stats are generally accepted and used by mainstream media and fans. this may be, in part, because football lends itself to some degree to guys who "work hard." or, as the english say, put in the graft. so guys who are fan favorites because their major skill is that they "give 110%" actually often translates to them being useful players [obviously with the caveat that they need some secondary skills, as well, largely marking/tackling skills].

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

what are major outlets? i really have no idea

where to go for such things?

and i'm glad you agree with huckaby. that was shite. i haven't had my subscription long enough to have had more interactions with him, but his chats are short and uninformative and his rare articles blow.

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 8:14 PM CST up reply actions

Wow, when I glanced at this in the other thread...

I just assumed there was a minor league prospect named Soccer. I would've never guessed there were any soccer fans here! I love soccer but since I never get to see any of the games I would like to see, I am completely limited in my knowledge of what's currently happening. Are there any web-sites you would recommend for some of the statistics stuff you are talking about?

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 11:35 AM CST up reply actions

yeah i'll second this for sure

dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.

by colintj on Mar 3, 2008 11:21 AM CST up reply actions

boy, i tell ya, dj

it's great to be back.

dj: no doubt.

hawk: we've had some roster turnover - tablesetters of the likes of darin erstad, scott podsednik, and andy gonzalez are gone. but we've still got an exciting young baseball player in jerry owens to put at the top of the order in the leadoff position and we've made some big acquisitions like nick swisher, alexei ramirez, and scott linebrink. but i'm most excited about jerry.

dj: no question.

hawk: dadgum right. jerry has been working hard on his bunting this offseason and so far this spring. and it's certainly paid off. i expect jerry to bat over .300 and steal a whole lotta bases. he's got a real chance to be something special and reignite that magic we had in '05.

dj: [unintelligible]

hawk: oh yeah. you bet. we got 'em right where we want 'em, dj. so sit back, relax, and strap it down, white sox spring training baseball from surprise, arizona comin' your way next.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:29 PM CST reply actions

I was about to reply

to one of your earlier posts with something like "geez, larry, lighten up," but then I read this. Brilliant.

by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions

there seems to be a misapprehension

by some posters that i get "riled up" about things and need to "settle down." perhaps it's my style of writing/arguing and people guessing tone in the toneless vacuum of the internet but i can assure you that i don't get riled up about much with respect to the white sox.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions

I just tend to think

of you as a lawyer, and I say that affectionately as a fellow member of the bar. Just what kind of law do you practice? The true brilliance of your above post is that it really could be the transcript of today's opening (including the inaudible part).

by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions

i was actually hoping

to see how close i could get to what hawk and dj would really say.

corporate reorganizations and bankruptcies.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 2:10 PM CST up reply actions

Loyola JD?

I'll stop guessing now.

by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 2:38 PM CST up reply actions

no

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 2:39 PM CST up reply actions

Larry,

"jerry has been working hard on his bunting this offseason....."

should be

"jerry has been working REALLY hard on his bunting this offseason......"

CLASSIC

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 12:32 PM CST reply actions

ballyb

are you familiar with the hiney bird? a hiney bird is a bird that flies in perfectly executed, concentric circles until it eventually flies up its own behind and poof! disappears forever....

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:36 PM CST up reply actions

No.

"All this has done is put the Tigers in a better position to contend with us."

by ballyb on Mar 3, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

i tell ya, bally

i just don't understand. i just don't.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:38 PM CST up reply actions

I gotta agree with ya Hawk

This kid is really fast.

"We're actually doing some different things at the top of the lineup, but our key is Jerry Owens being our center fielder and our leadoff guy" - JD

by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 12:37 PM CST up reply actions

Gosh Hawk, I wonder

what Yaz would think of this year's squad?

by palehose67 on Mar 3, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions

Well, I gotta tell DJ

That Yaz {chuckle chuckle} ...Man, that Yaz was sumpin' else.

"We're actually doing some different things at the top of the lineup, but our key is Jerry Owens being our center fielder and our leadoff guy" - JD

by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

no way they'd break that out in ST

gotta save that for the regular season. even dj knows that. freddy lynn, now - boy, i tell ya...

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions

Velez...

Don't we have enough of these guys? Getz, Bourgieous (can't spell his name correct, ever), Richar, Ramirez?

Why do we need another? Why not a corner OF/IF type? We have absolutely NONE of those guys... except maybe Eldred, I think.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 12:39 PM CST reply actions

McCovey Chronicles

doesnt really seem to get Cheat's point on this thread. they seem to think cheat wants the sox to acquire velez....

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/story/2008/3/3/113128/5578

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 12:41 PM CST reply actions

they've never been

the most intelligent crew over there

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:43 PM CST up reply actions

right

maybe if they actually read the thread and went to the SFGate article where cheat got the info about velez from, they'd understand more.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 12:44 PM CST up reply actions

Hey, this is Toonder's new peer group

Careful, counselor...

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions

I can say from experience

that Giant's fans are, on the whole, morons.

I would equate Giant's fans with Cubs fans, on the whole. And the fact that their stadium is a social experience, a place to see and be seen, makes the comparison all the more appropriate.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions

not to mention they're dirty commie hippies

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:55 PM CST up reply actions

I like your fire, larry

but they seem to be either yuppies or trash from the peninsula / San Jose

Just calling it like I see it.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 2:05 PM CST up reply actions

peel 'em back

once a red, always a red.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions

Good point

Next time I'm over there, I'll cut one or two of them up just to make sure!

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions

On the whole though?

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Mar 3, 2008 1:57 PM CST up reply actions

yep

Out of the seemingly hundreds of Giants fans I've encountered, I've met a few fans that actually knew someone on the team other than Bonds or Zito. And of them, I know of one fan who seems to appreciate the game in the broader context and makes critical assessments of the Giants management.

Therefore, I can't say that all Giants fans are morons, just most of the ones I've encountered.

OT - I see their attendance taking a huge hit this year now that Bonds is gone. It will be interesting to how much the attendance drops.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

by rhythm on Mar 3, 2008 2:12 PM CST up reply actions

Weak.

Just weak.

by Grant on Mar 3, 2008 10:37 PM CST up reply actions

intelligent people

know what they're talking about when they spout off.

by larry on Mar 4, 2008 10:21 AM CST up reply actions

Weaker.

Here's the link. If you read the comments, you'll notice that most people are responding to the title: "Velez for Crede?" The responses are mostly, "Ick." Most McCovey Chronicles readers don't think that a rich man's Pedro Feliz - Now with Back Problems! - is something that would help the current Giants team at any price.

The commenters aren't responding to The Cheat's analysis, but to his speculation that this could be the possible trade. I read exactly one response from someone who completely misses the point, calling the deal "wishful thinking" on the part of The Cheat.

I don't get how you infer that the readership of an entire blog is unintelligent from that thread, so I feel compelled to defend them.

by Grant on Mar 4, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions

because i read the blog

not just one diary. obviously. there are some smart and insightful posters/authors over there. but there are quite a few who aren't. compared to the rest of the SB nation, mccovey is on the low end. weep if you want. it's my opinion of the site. i don't think this really rises to the level of someone needing to argue or defend. what i think about the site should be quite irrelevant.

by larry on Mar 4, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions

"what i think about the site...."

Fair enough. I respectfully disagree.

by Grant on Mar 4, 2008 1:59 PM CST up reply actions

it's your site, i'd imagine you would

different blogs for different folks.

by larry on Mar 4, 2008 2:14 PM CST up reply actions

Frankly, I think the site sucks...

A bunch of posters fawning over bum prospects like Fred Lewis and Eugenio Velez and think that they are going to get Crede for Dave freaking Roberts. Crede is far from a stud but people needs to get a clue. Why would the Sox want to add Dave Roberts when they have a younger, cheaper version of him in Jesse Owens?

by SSH2005 on Mar 5, 2008 12:13 AM CST up reply actions

Even better

They think Velez is too much to pay for Crede. In a way, they are right since SF shouldn't be acquiring veterans at all. But the vibe from a lot of posts is that you don't give up a talent like Velez...you know, with him being so fast and all.

by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 1:14 PM CST up reply actions

i really dont care

what we get for crede to tell you the truth. i just want him moved so fields wont get blocked.

12/12/07- We'll miss you Andy Gonzalez

by The Deacon on Mar 3, 2008 1:22 PM CST up reply actions

if only cheat had made the comment

on velez's picture more clear!

by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 2:01 PM CST up reply actions

There are 32 replies over there

I just check this sites stats. There have been a total 27 clickthroughs from MCC to here since I posted that story. In other words, none of the respondents there even bothered to read what I had written.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Mar 3, 2008 5:15 PM CST up reply actions

looks like my comment

started something, too. whoops!

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 7:55 PM CST up reply actions

goldstein on velez today

Jay (DC): Eugenio Velez already has 5 steals this spring for the Giants. Will he make the roster, and does he has Chone Figgins potential?

Kevin Goldstein: I'm not a big Velez believer at all. He's kinda 75% of Chone Figgins. He's very fast and can play multiple positions, but he's really not good at any up the middle position other than second base and he has no plate discipline. For me, he's closer to Freddy Bynum than Chone Figgins.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/chat/chat.php?chatId=431

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 12:56 PM CST reply actions

Hilarious

I almost put Bynum's name in the post last night.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Mar 3, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions

i don't really mind bynum

but he's more of an NL bench player sort, especially considering his platoon split. i don't see a player like that fitting on an AL team carrying a seven man bullpen.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions

remember our Q's for richar's winter ball play

[MG]:

Second baseman Danny Richar will make his first start Monday against Kansas City at Surprise.

Richar revealed that he had a back injury this winter that limited him to 78 at-bats with Azucareros of Dominican Winter League.

"I think everything is going to be OK," Richar said. "I trust myself and I'm ready to play hard and show them I'm ready."

by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 1:09 PM CST reply actions

yup, just what i'd be doing if i was hurt

playing winter ball. makes perfect sense.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions

He is proving he is Chicago tough

remember what happens to prospects who pull out of winter baseball.

by southsideirish71 on Mar 3, 2008 1:16 PM CST up reply actions

somehow i doubt

the sox "assigned" him to play.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:17 PM CST up reply actions

Sounds like

he is making an excuse for sucking in winter ball.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions

Young kid with a back injury

who might not be taking the team's advice re: treatment.

Sound familiar?

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:18 PM CST up reply actions

the legend on velez

[bjenkins@sfchronicle.com]:

"That guy floats, man," teammate Aaron Rowand said. "When he runs, it doesn't even look like his feet touch the ground. Most guys, they run like this (head bobbing up and down). Velez is like this (not a single head movement). That's when you know a guy is fast."

by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 1:17 PM CST reply actions

When did mlb's marketing slogan

change to "Chicks dig the fleet feet"?

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:19 PM CST up reply actions

o god the legend is selling him to us...

BUY NOW KENNY GIVE EM FIELDS TOO

by Jbasic89 on Mar 3, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions

Well if the Giants are even open to trading Velez

Then I think Kenny would have to consider swapping Fields for Velez if that's on the table. Whichever team gets the fastest player wins the deal in my book.

by hitlesswonder on Mar 3, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions

Forget Southpaw

Found our new mascot. Its all about your 40 time here.

http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/classicsonic.jpg

by southsideirish71 on Mar 3, 2008 1:41 PM CST up reply actions

Which is worst -- Sonic the Hedgehog or...

http://www.gwrra-mi.org/Images/clipart/TAZ.jpg

Haha.

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:15 PM CST up reply actions

paulie on crede/fields

[JC]:

At the same time, Konerko reiterated that he hopes the organization makes a decision soon, as the talk of Crede's future, with Josh Fields waiting in the wings, could start affecting the team.

''From one standpoint I understand that [the front office] isn't going to have everything figured out just three or four spring games in,'' Konerko said. ''But for the rest of the team, all things considered, the quicker we know, the better. We don't want it turning into something like a quarterback controversy. I think that's what the rest of the team is feeling -- the longer it gets dragged out, it's not good.

you see, with all the crede/fields distraction plus the bad weather we couldn't get going april...

by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 1:35 PM CST reply actions

I like how this sounds -

Paulie taking players' concerns to management (or media) rather than acting as management's mouthpiece.

Good to see he's taking the "C" a bit more seriously.

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions

i don't care

what anybody thinks of fields' athleticism, if it comes down to a quarterback competition, mancrush is toast.

"They say that blood is thicker than water. What we have is thicker than blood."

by Toonderstrook on Mar 3, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions

What about a Punting

Competition?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Mar 3, 2008 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

no doubt

crede's been throwing some floaters during training camp and he seems to have trouble with the deep route.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 1:54 PM CST up reply actions

Closer to the truth than you think

When I was in Tucson I saw Jon Rauch throwing a football around 25 yards with a flunky who was warming him up. A 6'11" QB.

Maybe even baseball players, with arguably the easiest (less dangerous) major sports job (except punter, maybe) want to be stars in other sports.

I wrote this song after I killed a drifter to get an erection.

by winningugly on Mar 3, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions

with paulie coming out like that

id say somethings done by the end of tomorrow, wednesday at the latest

by Jbasic89 on Mar 3, 2008 1:49 PM CST reply actions

seriously doubt it

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 2:32 PM CST up reply actions

So Quentin almost hits a bomb that goes foul...

and then he comes back with a double.

Who the hell wants XBH's?!? Let's stick with slappy Owens!

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:16 PM CST reply actions

sox scouting lowry

[Mark Gonzales]:

The White Sox sent a scout to Scottsdale to watch San Francisco left-hander Noah Lowry pitch against Texas.

The scout didn't see much to get excited about, according to a witness.

Lowry walked seven and heaved two wild pitches in the first inning.

In the second, Lowry walked the first two batters on nine pitches, then threw a pickoff attempt into the stands before Giants manager Bruce Bochy pulled him. Lowry didn't strike out any of the 12 batters he faced.

Lowry is signed through 2009 at about $6.75 million, but the Sox might be better served settling for a package of prospects including left-hander Jonathan Sanchez in any deal involving third baseman Joe Crede.

may get lost in the gamethread...

by The Wizard on Mar 3, 2008 3:16 PM CST reply actions

I don't understand the conflicting reports...

First, there were reports that the Sox wanted Lowry. Then, there were some reports saying that the Sox are not interested in him. And now, here's a report saying that we want him. I don't see this happening because Danks looks too damn good to be in AAA. Unless they move Floyd to the bullpen.

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:21 PM CST up reply actions

"A package of prospects...

including left-hander Jonathan Sanchez in any deal involving third baseman Joe Crede."

I sure hope Brian Sabean is as dumb as Mark Gonzales.

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions

Danks looked great today...

Was his fastball really touching 93-94 MPH like Comcast showed?

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:18 PM CST reply actions

Brad Eldred kills lefties...

He might make a nice DH vs. lefties over Thome but we don't have the room for him on the roster.

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:22 PM CST reply actions

This trade rumor is worse than the Crede rumor...

"Roberts trade talks heat up
Orioles second baseman could go to Cubs with Payton"

by SSH2005 on Mar 3, 2008 3:28 PM CST reply actions

Lineupology from joe sheehan

The thing is, lineups aren't supposed to matter, with the difference between the best and worst reasonable ordering of players worth maybe a win a year. That conclusion has never set well with me, not when I see teams routinely doom their best hitters to batting behind hitters with .330 OBPs, and more critcially, perfectly predictable .330 OBPs. The guidelines for an effective lineup are simple, and they haven't changed in about 35 years, since offensive levels came back out of their valley:

Get your best hitters the most plate appearances
Guys who get on base should bat in front of guys who hit for power
Within reason, separate same-side hitters, to make life hard for platoon-centric managers
That's pretty much it. There are a number of less-important guidelines, some of which run counter to conventional managerial wisdom. For example, just about everyone inside baseball thinks speed is one of the most important qualities for a leadoff batter. In fact, because middle-of-the-lineup batters are generally the ones most likely to hit the ball a long way, speed isn't that critical. Add in that the cost/benefit of a stolen-base attempt is worst when a good hitter is at the plate--the out costs more, the base means less--and speed is actually not that important in the top two lineup spots. Speed and stolen-base attempts both have more value in the fifth and sixth spots, in front of the worst batters in the seventh through ninth slots, who are more likely to make outs and less likely to pick up extra-base hits.

article is free.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7201

nothing earth-shattering but some interesting thoughts for the uninitiated.

by larry on Mar 3, 2008 3:29 PM CST reply actions

Bah, that's BS

The CWS do it the CWS way, these statheads are idiots. We won the WS in 2005 dammit!

Here's the OBP for our table setters based on 50th percentile PECOTA 2008 projections. Uribe, Owens and Cabrera will be back-back-back once we get past the 1st inning:

Juan Uribe .299
Jerry Owens .311
Orlando Cabrera .317

Thomer better tie his shoelaces tight, because he's going to coming out of his shoes swinging for the fences when the bases are empty every time he comes up.

This Cabrera trade annoys me the most of anything we did this winter. They're fluffing him up like Erstad II, but his projections look like crap and he's an old SS so I can't believe his D will be any better than AVG. One year of this guy is the best we could do for Garland, cripes.

"We're actually doing some different things at the top of the lineup, but our key is Jerry Owens being our center fielder and our leadoff guy" - JD

by ChicagoPete on Mar 3, 2008 4:02 PM CST up reply actions

Agree with all that...

and totally disagree with my Cubs fan friend who thinks that batting Soriano 1st in the NL isn't really a bad idea.

I think it's a horrible example of lineup construction to have Soriano bat after the pitcher. How many leadoff homeruns did Soriano have last year? In last September? Stupid Lou.

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Mar 3, 2008 7:07 PM CST up reply actions