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Kenny: non-grinders not welcome in the clubhouse

Kenny doesn't want any Garlands:

Williams hasn't heard any complaints from players about the energy Swisher brings to the clubhouse every day, but just in case he ever does, he offered a warning.

''It's a grinder-type attitude, energetic attitude, confident-type attitude, and if it grinds on some people, then I need to know who those people are so we can move them on,'' Williams said. ''We want hard-nosed. We want Nick Swisher times 25.''

and Coop on Danks:

"The big difference? Strikes,'' pitching coach Don Cooper said. "The amount of strikes, quality strikes. He didn't command nearly as well and wasn't nearly as efficient. He's got to stand taller and stay on his pitches longer. It was a disappointing outing. We expect more and he does, too.''

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Comments

Display:

Nick Swisher...

times 25 would score a lot of runs, but the pitching would be atrocious.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Apr 11, 2008 1:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

this

is exactly why one shouldn't take everything from KW at face value.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

tho I wouldn't be surprised if Cowley screwed up the quote.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The funny thing is...

you probably really think that's exactly what Kenny meant.

Out-underacheiving the other guy.

by defensive indifference on Apr 11, 2008 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good god.

How stupid do you think I am?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Apr 11, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

stupid enough to like chubby girls?

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey! Maybe JRE is Liz's fiancee?

Let them eat cake!

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A girl at the park last year.

Her picture almost fit on the Jumbotron.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your wife

jesus christ, jerry. the woman who sleeps in your bed? the one who was sick a couple weeks ago? ring a bell?

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be frank...

I don't find this conversation very funny. I don't feel comfortable making jokes about other people's appearance.

Maybe you guys all look like George Clooney, but I don't, and I don't think it's cool to make fun of others based on how they look.

YMMV, as always.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Apr 11, 2008 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you asked the question

you knew where this was going, jer. and you still went down the path.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but not the aisle

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I gotta imagine Liz is married by now

Fat chicks can't have long engagements. Gotta get down that aisle quick, before he comes to his senses. She's not gettin any smaller, you know

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Apr 11, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wonder if on the wedding night

he had to roll her in flour and look for the wet spot.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Be vigilant!

Report any suspected non-grinderosity to Kenny.

by hitlesswonder on Apr 11, 2008 1:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

ha

You know they've got a snitch down in the locker room too, reporting on any unnatural non-grinding activities. My candidate for weasel is Toby Hall, he doesn't serve any other useful function on the team.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Perfect!

Somebody get to Owens, tell him that Kenny isn't too happy with Swisher and that he (Owens) needs to be more vocal about starting in CF.
A guy can dream, can't he?

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 1:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What happens when a grinder grinds on a non-grinder?

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Apr 11, 2008 1:29 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

results in masset

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or is the non-grinder now grinding since they are being ground upon?

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Apr 11, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Were Ozzie, Joey Cora and Harold grinder types?

I think Harold yes (played every day, produced, etc). Ozzie rarely walked and Joey just sucked. Wait, maybe they were grinders in the Uribe and Owens mold.

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Apr 11, 2008 1:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

harold was too good a baseball player to be a true grinder. so is swisher.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you just said harold was energetic.

like a sloth.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

conserving energy...work smarter, not harder, right?

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that's totally not grinder

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pete Rose = grinder.

Wasting effort by sprinting to first = grinder.

Betting on games = grinder.

What better way to be totally focussed on a game than to have money riding on it?

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Apr 11, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

be five foot nothing, one hundred and nothing?

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Harold is still given crap for how quiet he is

in the clubhouse. Grinders speak UP! Grinders generally grind on everyone's nerves after awhile. Strong, silent types are not in my typical definition of "grinders".

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey Now!

Don't go picking on Joey! He may not have been Roberto Alomar but he most definitely did not suck. First, he lasted 11 seasons and over 1100 games in the majors. You'd be hard pressed to find many really sucky ball-players who had that long a career.

Second, he was a decent hitter. During his prime, he OBA was consistently over .350. He was a pretty good baserunner and, later in his career, he even developed some respectable doubles-type power. He was a legit All-Star in 1997 and in his best two seasons, he posted OPS+ of 97 and 110. We'd take that kind of production from second base in a heartbeat. Now, granted, he wasn't anything special with the glove. At his best he was a league average glove and there were times he didn't even make that standard.

Joey was not a great player, but he was always serviceable and sometimes he was damn good. He was certainly good enough to be a starter on a championship team, which is why he made the play-offs four different times. Great? No. Sucky? Absolutely not? Grindy? Oh, yeah.

by Landfill on Apr 11, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then a true grinder

must be a slap hitter, gets dirty, and preferably speaks Spanish. A-Rod only really speaks spanish. Couldn't use him on our team.

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Apr 11, 2008 1:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Actually

I'm pretty sure that to be a grinder you have to be white or Japanese. Everyone knows that Latin and black players just coast on their talent. It's the athletically overmatched white and asian guys that really grind...

by madvillian on Apr 11, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lunch pail and blue-collar = white

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Apr 11, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heady = white

And heady is almost always paired with the desirable "scrappy" attribute.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weren't you going to share with us

your real estate deal yesterday? How'd it come out?

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm still waiting for someone him to blink

I threw him a small bone on the counteroffer, but I'm not bluffing. It involves someone from something near and dear to your heart, that's about all I can say.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you're selling property to ernest & julio gallo?

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bottle of wine, fruit of the vine
When you gonna let me get sober
Leave me along, let me go home
I wann'a go back and start over

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could use a drop of the grape right about now

This guy is really trying my patience, he's as stubborn as I am,

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A-hole

;)

Speaking of the vineyard, my wife is pushing hard to come out to your neck o' the woods this year to do the tour of the vineyards (I know, rent a car and stay off the beaten path). Have you done the obligatory Sonoma tours? Whaddya think?

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure, but we just do it out of season.

for people who enjoy wine i can't imagine you wouldn't have a great time. there are also plenty of microbreweries in sonoma if you're so inclined. if it's your first time, i'd say you should do at least a long day in napa. otherwise, sonoma is far chiller.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Have never been to wine country

and SF only twice in my life (never with the wife). As DeNiro says, "I hear good things".

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

WU go if you can

Napa and Yountville are amazing. If you like wine at all, it is impossible not to have a good time

by BustedFlush on Apr 11, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

keep me posted, brother.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And where's the Marquette Kid to tell of his interview?

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Swinging from piano wire

They didn't like that his nails were manicured.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me guess

Your fingernails are perpetually dirty from working on your Camaro

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and mine from my geo metro.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pete, you have to be a BMW guy

who tailgates me even thjough I am doing 80. Flashing the lights and all.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I had a Camaro in 1985

but have never changed my own oil. My Dad's the mechanic. So you are one generation off. Which fits.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My second car was a Firebird

I always had more class than you.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I'm envious of you

You get to live in the thriving heart of Indy in 2008, and I lived there in 1980. Poor, poor me.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I said I am going 80, bro.

Again, my Dad is the other guy you describe. Again, one generation off. Which still fits.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that IS clogging the passing lane.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Get out of the way!

The passing lane is for passing. You'd last 10 minutes on the autobahn before they boot you off.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

or the left lane of I-55

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh. boy, the i drive faster than you do in my more luxurious car

pissing contest. fun.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

camaro.

but it's probably up on blocks in the yard.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm in old-age hell here.

55 is usually the speed limit. There's a reason we in O-town have been voted the "least friendly" drivers in America. Everyone's from somewhere else, 1/2 don't know which side of the road to drive on, 1/4 are over 90 years old, and the other 1/4 have a theme park map in their laps.

Good thing we now are getting a law passed to be able to cary handguns into our place of employment. That will take the pressure off.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Florida is insane

I lived in Broward. On I-95 half the cars were mummies doing 55 in the left lane, the other half were cowboys coked up to the gills weaving through traffic doing 100.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL!

That about covers it. You forgot the immigrants, though.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grinders 2.0

I am all for guys like Swisher, who are talented and hustle and play tough. Those guys are good. I am totally against the Grinder 1.0 version which had guys who hustled and were tough, I guess, but had no talent.

If a Grinder is someone like Swisher, sure.

If a Grinder is someone in the Andy Gonzales, Erstad, Pods mode. Then no

by southsideirish71 on Apr 11, 2008 1:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Neither do I

But this grinder thing is a bit overstated by Kenny and Company.

When they announced they were looking for a Grinder type ball player. I was thrilled. For me, grinder was a line drive tough out type guy, that would augment our power hitting lineup. A guy who played hard all the time, was a tough out, and played great fundamental baseball. Minny for years, has taken some talented, and less than talented players and have had them play up and above their capabilities. This was due to a single purpose minor league system that had a repeatable message and taught fundamentals. This is what I thought we were getting. However somewhere between Minny and Chicago we had a change. Our first version Grinders, V1.0. Were less than talented guys, for the most part, who struck out a ton, and were medicore. They didnt have solid fundamentals and didnt provide anything but an easy out in the lineup.

by southsideirish71 on Apr 11, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I tend to focus on the "tough out" part...

not the "grinder" part.

I appreciate a good attitude, but that has nothing to do with winning baseball games.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Apr 11, 2008 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

sure it does

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree JRE

winning makes people appear more grindy too.

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Apr 11, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Erstad

was one of the original grinders before his body broke down. Pods, was never really a grinder - more like a pretty boy. Gonzalez was kind of like the equivalent of the bat boy.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Owens and Pods...

Both did most of their grinding with their groins (not a pretty picture) hence all the injuries to that sensitive area.

The Legend did all of his with whatever part of him hit the wall first (or the ground when coming off the dirt bike).

Harold, anything but a grinder - as laconic as they come.

by Dick Allen's batting helmet on Apr 11, 2008 2:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Pods wife

is pretty d*mn pretty! So I can't blame Pods for having a sore groin all of last year....if I was married to that, my groin would be sore too. Hell, I would need constant ice down there.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All kidding aside about "grinding"

One of the most interesting, the most interesting when you're playing, is the balance between control and aggression that baseball requires. Especially for pitchers who have to "let if fly" neither steering the ball or overthrowing. Ditto for batting (over swinging) and playing loose in the field.

by Dick Allen's batting helmet on Apr 11, 2008 2:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

How many Cocktails

have you had this afternoon, Dick?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hitting

Our hitters will have good results if they can get deep into the count a lot, see a lot of pitches, and getting into hitters counts. This will help that balance you speak of. You can have a much better AB when you are seeing a 2-1 pitch than constant 1-2 pitches. Plus the add on factor of driving the pitchers count up, and sending him to the showers before you hit the back end of the bullpen.

Hence why Swisher and Quentin so far look pretty promising.

by southsideirish71 on Apr 11, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So far yes,

but it depends on what the pitchers are throwing you. If the are dialing in strikes to you, well it is hard to get ahead of the count - no matter how good of an eye you have or your patience. Pitchers are starting to do this more to Thome this year, thus him falling behind in the count a lot more than in recent years.

Good pitchers don't fall behind 2-1 consistently....a thing Danks needs to work on. Because he is behind in the count A LOT.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well, shit

we can't even have a goddamn sleeper prospect, let alone real ones.

who is your top sleeper prospect in the white sox system?

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

sox
Pretty dry system. I had Jack Egbert highly-rated but he is getting more attention now and isn't a true sleeper these days. Oneli Perez is still intriguing. Honeslty I can't say any big sleepers stick out at me. It's a very dry system.

by John Sickels on Apr 11, 2008 2:03 PM CDT

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:17 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

White Sox
Do you see Aaron Poreda as a starter or reliever at the major league level?

by Ryno on Apr 11, 2008 2:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

poreda
Too early to say. Need to see how his secondary pitches hold up at higher levels. My guess is that he spends time in both roles but eventually settles into the pen.

by John Sickels on Apr 11, 2008 2:14 PM CDT

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

According to Sickels

Our system is terrible. Well, as Kenny says, I blame this all on Duane Schafer.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

according to sickels?

according to me the sun will rise tomorrow. how's that for authority?

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure we can classify Harrell as sleeper

He went unmentioned in Sickel's top 20 (I'm unsure where he ranked on Roger's list)

But since he never really fell out of our top 15 or so, It just seems like he's not a sleeper around here because, well, I've been hyping him for a going on two years now. The minor league "experts" will likely be writing about his surprise status in the coming months, so there's your sleeper.

AIM: SouthSideCheat

by The Cheat on Apr 11, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Grinder is just more marketing BS.

Swisher may be a "grinder", but most other players KW acquired the past few years are definitely not. I would never associate Floyd, Masset, Sisco, MacDougal, Riske... as grinders. Richar and Alexei are probably not grinders also. Don't drink the purple Kool-Aid!

by CurlyMoe on Apr 11, 2008 2:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

wow

So our #1 pick projects as a reliever. Awesome.

by madvillian on Apr 11, 2008 2:21 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's better than usual.

Usually, they project as an AAAA starter.

by The Jerry Royster Experience on Apr 11, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and you expected what at that pick?

maybe this is a news flash for people who think that the lower part of the first rounds is some haven for premium talent but if you're drafting a player who actually contributes to your team for a few years, in whatever capacity, that's good. like, really good.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me get this straight

So, you are saying only the top players that are drafted in the first round will make it to the pro's and possibly be quality starters for a team. Everything after the first 15 picks or so would be lucky to make the team?

If your rationale is right, then how have the Red Sox, Twins and Yankees brought up such good young talent??

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

uh, no. that's rather clearly not what i'm saying.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think bobby is trying to muscle in on wu's territory with remarks like that.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And your point is?

Since I have no idea what you consider my territory? Do I make specious arguments?

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually, i misspoke. i meant jre.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and not specious. but getting into it with uncle lar.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it's JRE vs. larry, and WU vs. Chicago Pete,

Cage Deathmatch! I rather enjoy Buckley III and Jer's jousting.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What are you saying then?

1. You said what do you expect from the pick? 25th overall
2. You then said if you drafting a player at this position that contributes in any capacity for a few years, then that's really good.

So you are saying the #25 pick just making the team, even if a bench player or reliever is "really good".

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 2:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I won't speak for Larry

But yes.

The odds are against the player picked 25th in the first round becoming a useful major leaguer. That doesn't mean it never happens. It just means you shouldn't expect an all-star in that slot. If you get one -- that's fantastic drafting/development. If you get someone who contributes in the majors, that's still really good.

by hitlesswonder on Apr 11, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

first of all

your examples are horrible. pray tell, who is all this premium talent that those teams have developed that weren't top picks that have actually contributed? morneau and youkilis. that's it. the other players who i assume you're referencing haven't done much of anything yet. papelbon and neshek with another year probably gets in there. other than that, it's all potential.

second, yes it's really good. here's a research project. go to baseball reference. look at who has been picked at #25. tell us what percentage of those players 1) ever even appeared in the majors and 2) how many of them can actually be called contributors. let's define contributors as a minimum of 1000 ABs for position player, 150 games for a reliever, 75 games for a starter.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

papelbon needs another year before he counts? you're rough.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's close

i said 150 games for a reliever. there are always exceptions. i would imagine his VORP is quite high so he's returned great value, especially vis-a-vis his draft position. throw him in if you want. we're doing a quick and dirty here. if someone wants to go do VORP or win shares or whatever, be my guest. i figured that would take a bit longer than most want to spend here.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

150 games for a reliever is fine. these are your rules.

i only wondered about papelbon because you specifically referred to papelbon (and coupling him with neshek no less).

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

first one who gets the research done wins

I can't wait.......

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Apr 11, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even better, here are the Top Ten from 2001 and how they've fared:

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/around_the_minors/

(From yesterday)

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It strikes me that the lion's share of money should be spent on development

than on amateur scouting as the scouting is such a crap shoot. Paying more to the best coaches might develop a marginal player a little higher. And you might end up with a whole system of grindy people.

Show mercy. I get to watch the Rangers.

by Tim from Texas on Apr 11, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah. All the scouts have to do is draft/select college punters.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did the research

Went back through 2001....don't want to spend half the day on this.

#25 Picks since 2001
2005 Matt Garza
2004 Brady Sullivan
2003 Steve Waldrop
2002 Matt Cain
2001 Bobby Crosby

60% success rate

#24 Picks since 2001
2005 Bogusevic
2004 Powell
2003 Chad Billingsley
2002 Joe Blanton
2001 McBride

40% success rate

#23
2005 Jacoby Ellsbury
2004 Phillip Hughes
2003 Wood
2002 Jeff Francoer
2001 Ford Griffin

60% success rate

So of the #23-#25 picks 8 out of 15 have turned out to be ML ready ballplayers...some I would say have big upside. Francoer, Hughes, Ellsbury, Billingsley, Cain and Garza.

Next I did research on our current White Sox
Crede 5th Round
Cabrera Amateur FA
Uribe Amateur FA
Konerko - 1st Round (13th)
Thome 13th Round
AJ 3rd Round
Dye 17th Round
Swisher 1st Round (16th)
Quentin 1st Round (29th)
Jenks 5th Round
Vazquez 5th Round
Buehrle 5th Round

Lastly, I don't have the time but I would fathom that approx. 50% of the All Stars from last year were drafted in the late first round or later.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the "or later" kills your argument.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

so does classifying ellsbury, hughes, and garza as successes

and i know exactly why he doesn't want to go back further than 2001. and it's not because it's oh so hard to get the full list of #25 picks and their career stats to come up. oh my god! three seconds!

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?overall_pick=25&draft_type=junreg

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

1. I would classify those as successes and would be happy to have any of them on the Sox.

2. Go back to any draft pick in the first round and look at each year....it is almost the same as #25! There is about the same percentage of hits and misses.

"if you're drafting a player who actually contributes to your team for a few years, in whatever capacity, that's good. like, really good."

So you are satisfied - actually sounds like really happy if Poreda just is a 3-year player out of the bullpen. Well, how would you expect to build any sort of farm system if you basically have one pick a year that could produce any sort of premium talent and the rest of the picks we would be happy if they even made it on the bench or bullpen?

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there are ways to sign players other than the draft, you know

and picks other than in the first round.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No

Poreda was picked #25 in the first round. Sickels pointed out that he probably will be in the bullpen. Larry said what do you expect from a pick that late - anyone drafted there just making a contribution is "real good".

But, look at the All-Star Rosters...

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look at the all-star rosters

count the number of all-stars drafted at 25 or after and divide by the number of players drafted 25 or after.

by hitlesswonder on Apr 11, 2008 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this isn't the NFL, the NBA, or hell even the NHL

in baseball you have to deal with far more projection. hence tons and tons of first-round flops and many late-round successes. nobody should expect a stud at #25; if you get some useful major league service out of that guy you've done well.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and i like how being in the bullpen

suddenly is awful. ten games jade us, huh. if you actually read what sickels and others say about poreda if he were in the bullpen, it's that he would likely be a premium set-up man or closer. how truly awful. what a waste of a pick. wouldn't want that on our team. fuck soriano, fuck shields, fuck all those guys. worthless roster fillers.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 11, 2008 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i certainly didn't intend

for there to be a negative connotation to being a reliever when i asked the question. from what i've heard about poreda so far he sounds like he already has the stuff to be a big league LOOGY at worst.

i just wanted to know if sickels had any insight into how his secondary pitches were going and whether they'd be good enough to make him a starter. sickels's answer wasn't exactly illuminating on that point, but i guess i could've worded the question better. after larry asked the same question i was going to ask, and got a weak answer, i wasn't quite as invested in writing a great question.

by Ryno on Apr 11, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you're looking for detail

his answers are rarely illuminating in that forum. join his mailing list if you want detailed answers.

somewhere in arizona, jerry owens silently weeps.

by larry on Apr 12, 2008 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

weather tonight?

What's it like in Chicago? Are they gonna get this one in tonight?

by rhombusface on Apr 11, 2008 2:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Right now, it's perfect out.

Chance of rain all night, but nothing heavy. Should be fine.

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Apr 11, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not if clouds still move west.

Hour west of Chicago looks pretty awful out.

by Grinder in Training on Apr 11, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Light Rain is expected

But very windy - 15-25mph SW winds. It is really windy now downtown. Temperature is supposed to drop too.

A lot of balls will be swirling out to LF.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Apr 11, 2008 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I was outside at lunchtime. It was perfect then.

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Apr 11, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

dropped 15 degrees in 2 hours. (downtown, don't know about O'Hare)

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The wind is switching directions like crazy

When it veers north the temp drops ten degrees in a flash.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yep. my 4 least favorite words every year:

cooler near the lake.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I'll be there tonight. Just as long as it stays dry, I'm good.

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Apr 11, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Next week is supposed to be beautiful

60s and 70s. Of course, that means it's time for the Sox to hit the road.

by ChicagoPete on Apr 11, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

OT: The Masters

Tiger will have to pull some magic to get into this one. He's even (again) through 8 today, which puts him 8 back.

Leaderboard here:

http://sports.chicagotribune.com/default.asp?c=chicagosports&page=golf-m/scores/s_summ.htm

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 3:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good thing Tiger has a bag full of tricks.

"You might be impressed with your analysis, but I am not. Stop wasting my time." - Chris De Luca

by BoKnows on Apr 11, 2008 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lineup tonight?

I heard Swisher leadoff and BA in 7 hole?

Help! My groin's fallen and I can't get it up!

by Brush Back on Apr 11, 2008 4:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Correction

Quentin leadoff and BA in 7 hole?

Help! My groin's fallen and I can't get it up!

by Brush Back on Apr 11, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yup.

Unveiling Preparation
Friday, April 11, 2008

Tonight's Lineup

On a cold and blustery night ...

Quentin, LF; Cabrera, SS; Thome, DH; PK, 1B; Dye, RF; Crede, 3B; BA, CF; Uribe, 2B; Hall, C. Contreras pitching.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh good: Count and Hall.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

clete thomas might steal 6 bags.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow - I hope BA is hitting

Otherwise a brutal 7-9 slot

Help! My groin's fallen and I can't get it up!

by Brush Back on Apr 11, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

not sure i understand giving swisher the day off here.

he got one off yesterday and reached all 3 times off willis last weekend. hope a day off is all it is.

Just because you are a character doesn't mean you have character.

by Toonderstrook on Apr 11, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

He's hot, he's grindy, and he's sitting?

This totally torpedoes Pete's marketing theory.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Apr 11, 2008 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

good. Any rain should be off and on.

Skanberg, if I wanted to hear your opinion, I would have brainwashed you by now-
Don Guillote

by Chiburb on Apr 11, 2008 4:16 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Unveiling of monument tonight

Help! My groin's fallen and I can't get it up!

by Brush Back on Apr 11, 2008 4:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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