On Cabrera and Coaching
by The Cheat on May 13, 2008 2:38 PM CDT
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PrintThe White Sox middle infield sucks, but you know this. You guys have spent much of the season debating who is worse, Juan Uribe or Orlando Cabrera, and continue to do so today. They're not hitting --both own and OPS around .600-- and their defense on the season can be described as erratic, including last night when they looked like the double play combo for a poor high school team.
More concerning to me than the erratic play is the complete disappearance of, for lack of a better term, Cabrera's bat handling, his ability to be a tough out. When Cabrera was acquired, I tried to avoid using such axioms when describing him, but failed.
I really had to resist the urge to fill this entry with cliches such as "he's a tough out" and "adept handler of the bat," but the Cabrera of the last two seasons has been just that every time I've seen him play. He's a player I've really grown to appreciate over the past couple of seasons.
And I wasn't alone, the even more statistically minded Jeff Sullivan from Lookout Landing wrote the following.
As an Angel, Cabrera was everything that drove me insane. He always made contact, he'd fight off enough pitches to have those really long annoying at bats, he ran fast enough to beat out infield grounders, he'd hit bloopers into the outfield because he doesn't have any power, he'd make flashy plays with the glove, he beat the hell out of the Mariners, and he had that Wizard of OC nickname that made me want to water my lawn with the blood from Steve Physioc's wrists. Cabrera became the face of everything I hated about that team. For three long years, he practically took up residence under my skin.
So when Cabrera struck out on three pitches with the bases loaded last night, I thought to myself, "if he was still wearing an Angels uniform he probably would have fought that last pitch off, maybe even flared it into right field." But Cabrera's not in an Angels uniform anymore.
And this is where it becomes an issue that's bigger than Cabrera. You know where I'm going with this. I'll once again point to something I wrote when Cabrera was acquired.
Cabrera doesn't see a lot of pitches, just 3.39 per PA last season and 3.50 for his career, but he makes excellent contact (makes contact on 86% of his swings). He seems to like the ball in off the plate yet has the ability to push the ball off the outside corner into right field. (I'm sure Walker can fix that pesky habit.)
That, my friends, is coaching you can count on.
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Hm...
Unless I’m misreading it, BPro lists it as Uribe .218, Cabrera .212.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Cabrera
got into Uribe’s kool-aid?
Or, he’s been sneaking extra crispy thigh’s from Juan’s seemingly endless stash of Popeye’s? That sh*t isn’t good for the arteries and thus can’t be good for your quick-twitch reflexes.
They should both switch to tudurken.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
Tofurkey?
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
That just isn't
good for the soul.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 13, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
not mine, but I'm sure there are some happy turkeys
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
But the Pilgrims
didn’t eat tofurkey??
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 13, 2008 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
He's usually around 1 K for every 10 AB...
This year, it’s 1 for every 8.7 AB
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
yeah
we can chalk up a large portion of that 1.3 to ozzie making him do stupid shit like hit and run.
don't forget all the foul SAC attempts with 2 strikes
no wonder he likes Scoscia.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
Does he actually look different at the plate than he used to?
I don’t remember seeing him enough in the past to know if Walker has “fixed” him or not. I do know that he has sucked offensively in the past. I’m all for a new hitting coach, but I think OCab is probably just bad right now and coaching has little impact. Look at his 2004 and 2005. He had a sub .700 OPS both seasons (.634 one year!). He had a good season last year, but likely won’t have one this season.
I would just say that he looks like he slumping, confused
He’s got less plate coverage (inside and out)
I was admittedly cherry picking some of my past quotes for effect… to host a debate…
AIM: SouthSideCheat
clearly
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
Maybe he's depressed?
The whole Cartagena Franchise just didn’t work out in Columbia and now he is feuding with his fellow countryman, Rentaria. I am sure Juan has discussed to him how he can fix the situation easily with a 12-gauge….he is probably pondering it and unable to concentrate on handling the bat.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 13, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Jon Garland has'nt exactly been everything the Angels hoped for either.
Watching the game last night, Orlando seemed a little less spunky than last year. But knowing him, I expect him to stick it in the Angels’ eye before he leaves Anahiem this series.
Scioscia, "Roll the hole!"
That's just because you were expecting too much
Garland is Garland. He’s exactly the same pitcher he’s been for the last 3 seasons, low strikeout rate notwithstanding
AIM: SouthSideCheat
prescription shit, brah
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
That's true, but being short pitching so far this season the fans I think had higher expectations.
His first start was so good and it spoiled us. His style of pitching takes getting used to, you always want him to throw strikes but he is not that kind a pitcher.
Scioscia, "Roll the hole!"
I don't know...
what people were expecting from Orlando Cabrera, but this is a guy with a career OPS of .720, a guy who’s posted an OPS+ over 100 exactly once, five years ago. He’s simply not a very good hitter.
His numbers will improve somewhat, but he is not a top-of-the-order hitter.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 3:25 PM CDT reply actions
This is the part that I haven't really addressed
I railed against signing Cabrera following the ‘04 season - not that it ever was in danger of happening - arguing that Uribe was a better, cheaper option… And he was, for a year.
But the Cabrera of the previous two seasons, the one I referenced in the above post, the one who hit 292/.340/.400 looked like a different player than the one I wanted no part of in before the world series run, the one coming of a season with a .306 OBP and posting a career mark of .316. I was worried we could see that old Cabrera, but was hopeful that he wouldn’t show up… Oh well.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
It just seems that...
Cabrera was a bad example to use if you wanted to bash on Greg Walker. You can’t really polish a turd.
Now, if you want to talk about Nick Swisher, on the other hand…
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I was more amused by the juxtaposition of the three quoted pieces than anything
I never overtly said anything about walker… I was just lookin’ to start some shit ;)
AIM: SouthSideCheat
he gets shat on
because juan uribe is still on the team. because people wanted more/something different for garland. because he says he likes scioscia best. because someone described him as a “field general.” because someone decided to award him a gold glove last year. because it’s another thing to complain about.
he was an upgrade over uribe. a win or thereabouts. i don’t know if people were expecting some great hitter or great fielder or what. he is what he is. is he a major upgrade? no and anyone who thought he would be was deluding themselves – the sox included, if that’s what they thought. that’s probably where the crux of the criticism comes lies.
I think people
Who didn’t get the chance to see him play on a daily basis, just saw that he won two gold gloves, and one just last year assumed he would be pretty good in the field.
by Grinder in Training on May 13, 2008 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions
that's a pretty silly thing to think.
and i really do find all the cabrera defensive bashing to be high comedy. i’d forgotten how many people on here watch multiple games a day and therefore know what average, above average, and below average SS defending looks like intuitively.
by the way
he was good last year. better than usual. but you can have a career year on defense, too. there was no reason to expect a repeat of that. he’s an average defender, perhaps somewhat above. probably what people would describe as competent. doesn’t make many spectacular plays but makes the routine ones easily and makes good decisions.
College
and the MLB Package led to seeing a lot of games a day for two summers.. it was a good time. I assumed a guy who has won two gold gloves would be a lot better then average. Clearly I assumed wrong.
He’s decent but not what I wrongly expected, I imagine a lot of other casual fans out there saw that he won two gold gloves and assumed he would bring a lot more to the table with the glove too.
by Grinder in Training on May 13, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Let that be a lesson to you.
Gold Gloves are a terrible indication of defensive ability.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
exhibit b: rafael palmeiro when he played 28 games at first base in '99 and still won the gold glove
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions
well
that’s an exhibit for something else about gold gloves. i.e., that the people who are voting for the awards watch about as much baseball as the casual fan apparently does.
indeed, but it still goes to the overarching idea that paying attention gold gloves won't get you far.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Managers and coaches.
They’re really poorly-qualified in that they’re not allowed to vote for their own players, who are about the only players they see on an everyday basis, and they’re busy working while other games are going on.
They probably spend about two minutes on their Gold Glove ballots.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
In all honesty who should have won the GG at SS in the AL last season?
I think people’s point of reference for good SS defense is warped….
I would have voted for OC…
Uribe had a down season… Who were the good defensive SS in teh AL last year Betancourt? McDonald? It was a tallest midget competition… It’s not like they were beating out mid-late 90’s vizquel or Adam Everett..
AIM: SouthSideCheat
did jeter have a terrible year last year even for jeter?
kind of interesting that the three-time reigning champ didn’t win again.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
i think the statistical backlash got to some voters
and cabrera, another major market guy, was good, too, and got a serious push.
I think I remember seeing something at BTF last season
that showed he was average to above average in the first 6 weeks or so of last season… but, yeah, he ended up WAY below average….
For what it’s worth… Fielding Bible lists OCab as +9 through last night.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
and baseball prospectus has him at 114? or thereabouts.
but my eyes tell me differently. and i’ve got this pretty graph from two years ago. and juan uribe was good and, ergo, everyone else is shit.
Like I said, I think his defense can be described as erratic
It was poor-to-average for the first 10 games or so… then excellent through the Seattle series, and poor last night.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
the point
about people not getting to see other teams play, or even the sox play every game, is well taken. with that in mind, it’s especially difficult to hang your hat on the “i know what my eyes tell me” argument.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
yup
which is the primary reason i think people need to at least buttress their argument with some reference to defensive statistics.
I've been trying...
to figure out BPro’s number, but I don’t know where they arrive at it. They just say “runs above or below average”, and then define “average” for a position. I can’t figure out how they determine how many runs a player takes away or adds with his defense.
And I know that my eyes are poor tools for determining defensive abillities. I wish I had something better.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Unfortunately...
I hit dead end, as I don’t have a BPro subscription.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 13, 2008 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
i think you can validly say that a guy doesn’t play good defense (as opposed to he didn’t play good defense last night) and base that determination solely on your eyes, but only if you’re basing it on your own set of standards, by which every SS in baseball theoretically plays bad defense.
doing that probably requires a disclaimer though (and probably doesn’t add much to a discussion with others), because most everybody describes ballplayers in relation to other ballplayers and understands comments the same way (he sucks? compared to who???). that’s where seeing someone every time he plays, in addition to other guys who play the same position on a regular basis, becomes the issue.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions
i tell ya, feisty, there are some guys who can play defense today
but noboby compares to the guys i played with. nobody,
BP's d stats (FRAA, anyway) are pretty bleh
It uses a number of conventional stats (like errors) to develop a proxy. It’s at odds frequently with many of the other more advanced BIP data based systems. I like Dan Fox’s SFR though.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
and is the difference
between saying cabrera’s defense sucks vs. cabrera played shitty D last night.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't think cabrera was a bad choice
like i said, he had a very good year. but, like with anything, should one base one’s opinion of a player on a single year? of course not. we don’t do that for offense so why would we for defense?
re
because someone described him as a "field general."
you forgot “slick fielding.”
:p
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
He certainly has had some down seasons.....
but based off of what I’ve seen the last couple of years or so (MLB PACKAGE) I liked the trade. I bought the “tough out” outlook for him…..still very early of course….but he fits right in with our collection of solid players on down side of prime…....other than of course Swish, Q.
Slightly OT:
The fact that Pete has not responded to this softball question leads me to believe he has been arrested (I’d wager assault and battery) or is dead.
Pete, come home. OC needs his muse.
I took the "under".
Does the 'Left on Base' Statistic have any correlation to a team's offensive success or failure?
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7510 (free)
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
incomplete analysis.
i didn’t see any mention of the coefficient of correlation between LOB and the morale of the pitching staff.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Feel....
Going on feelings alone brings me to certain thoughts….
I feel like Cooper helps some pitchers…. not all the time, not life changing, but i feel like some guys have career / better than their average years with the Sox. Cotts, Polite, Thorton…. not that their haven’t been failed projects, Mac, Sisco, etc
I feel like Walker doesn’t help any batters….. I don’t recall anyone ever praising him for a turn around or a fix, I don’t remember anyone having their best statistical years with the Sox, besides Dye (comming of injury) and Konerko ( who has played no where else). You would figure that after coaching so long, someone would say “Wow, walker really helped me out…”
I know that i have no stats backing me up…...,but i usually watch 6 or 7 hundred games a year.
I am going to ask you one time, and i'm gonna ask you nice. Where the fuck is Ringo bitch.
here's one from a five second search.
“Leaving behind Greg Walker, a man Rowand refers to as “not only the best hitting coach in baseball, hands down, but also one of my best friends,” Rowand was forced to rely more on his own knowledge to make corrections with his swing. This bit of personal growth should help answer critics who point to 2007 as a spectacular anomaly compared to his past solid seasons.
“During the last couple of years, I learned a lot about myself and my swing,” said Rowand, who hit .309 in 2007, with 27 home runs, 45 doubles, 89 RBIs and 105 runs scored. “[In Chicago] I depended on [Walker] to watch and break down every one of my swings, and I leaned on him and depended on him too much, instead of learning a feel.”
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071129&content_id=2313817&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions
you got me!
I’ll just add the SSS story:
What’s up with the Walker love?
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
That's what i mean though...
Because he hunts and fishes with walker they are buddies….. but after leaving he has been better
I am going to ask you one time, and i'm gonna ask you nice. Where the fuck is Ringo bitch.
Shows what I get for posting....
thanks toonder for taking 2 minutes to show me up….. is that a record..?
I am going to ask you one time, and i'm gonna ask you nice. Where the fuck is Ringo bitch.
i'm not saying rowand actually learned anything from walker.
just responding to the comment that nobody had ever claimed walk had helped.
"For those that don't understand stats... that ops is horrifying."
by Toonderstrook on May 13, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
yes
didn’t he had his best year the year after he got away from walker?
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
2 games a day??
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
oops
That looks bad saying that Cotts, Polite, and Matt were all successes….lol
I am going to ask you one time, and i'm gonna ask you nice. Where the fuck is Ringo bitch.
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