White Sox No Longer Second Tier in Central
When last we saw the Indians, I recalled the feelings I had at the opening of the '07 season, when the disparity between the two teams couldn't have been more obvious, and said the Sox had "changed, but not nearly enough, nor in the right spots." I liked the '08 club better than the '07 version, but it still felt like there was a gap --and not in a good way-- between the Indians and the Sox.
And that's what jumped out at me most in this game. Flipping between the NBA Draft Lottery and the first inning of the game, I wasn't filled with doom, even though the Indians had CC Sabathia, who had never lost at USCF, on the mound and the Sox countered with the always adventuresome Jose Contreras.
While the Sox are obviously not without flaws, these Indians have many of the same flaws --they entered the night with a .234 batting average-- and maybe a couple more (like a bullpen that has the second highest OPS allowed in the league). The only gap I feel now is the 2.5 game lead the Sox have built on the Indians.
The White Sox no longer belong in the second tier of "the toughest division in baseball." They're right in the thick of things at the top of baseball's most disappointingly mediocre division.
About the game
Jose Contreras pitched well. Carlos Quentin homered. The bullpen nailed down a Sox victory, combining with Contreras to hold the opponent to just one run. I think we've read this script before.
Contreras didn't quite have the forkball that he had last time out, but it was there when he needed it, and his fastball seemed to have a little extra zip on it tonight. The lone run he allowed came in an inning in which he took a possible double play ball off the ankle for a base hit to put runners on first and second with nobody out. After looking shaky on the ensuing sacrifice bunt, Count picked right back up where he left off, snuffing out the only other serious scoring threat by catching David Dellucci off second base following a comebacker.
The Sox offense, which consisted of Q! and Thome solo shots in the first 7 innings, added some insurance in the 8th. Q! started the rally with a well earned walk, then busted into 3rd on a Jermaine Dye single. The hustle play, which might have caught Grady Sizemore off-guard, and allowed Dye into second, forcing the bases loaded with a IBB to Thome.
Pablo Ozuna singled home Quentin after Paul Konerko struck out on 3 pitches. Nick Swisher capped the scoring with an RBI groundout to plate Dye. And the bullpen retired all 9 batters they faced to cap off what might have been the most satisfying win of the season thus far.
Incidentally
Because I'd like to be the first to draw the connection; the Sox are 9-3 since Uribe's takeout slide of Brendan Harris.
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I know some of you (read: Larry) can't believe this guy's story
but it’s worth noting that a certain poster is back posting at Soxtalk.... He doesn’t have much to say, but he mentions that Jose Martinez may have torn his meniscus and broken his foot. And Justin Edwards had TJ(?) surgery.
the money quotes aren’t really much, but they don’t paint a pretty picture about the Wilder situation and the 3 young SS the Sox signed last year.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on May 21, 2008 12:35 AM CDT 0 recs
I was just about to post this...
I just posted it in the “Wilder Investigation Tealeaves” fanpost:
http://www.southsidesox.com/2008/5/18/520026/wilder-investigation-teale#6250530
Crazy stuff. Sounds like SS Juan Silverio is actually 20.5 years old instead of 16 and he also sucks.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:49 AM CDT
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I just read it,,, and if it's to be believed
I was right on 1, 2, and 3 in my initial post on the situation. If I was batting any better, I might be stealing All-Star votes from Q! ;)
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on
May 21, 2008 12:54 AM CDT
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It's crazy...
He even says that a writer from Baseball America was in on it. The writer was a friend of Dave Wilder and Alan Reiger and he basically backed the expensive signings of these Latin players by hyping the crappy players up in his publications.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:56 AM CDT
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This conspiracy stuff is gold if true...
What an interesting story. No wonder our farm system sucks so bad if this crap is true.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 1:02 AM CDT
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That's a non-vieled reference to Phil Rogers
I don’t think Phil is “in on it.” More like he was a patsy who repeated what Wilder told him… It’s not like he’s headed out to view these guys like Anderson Gomes.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on
May 21, 2008 1:02 AM CDT
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I remember that one...
Phil Rogers saying that Anderson Gomes could be the next Soriano.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 1:25 AM CDT
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Phil Rogers
Also said that Cleveland is going to make a statement this series on CTL. He is 0-1 thus far in that prediction. He is the ESPN bonehead baseball writer for the Tribune, I mean he was talkin up the Indians like they were the 27 yankees. The guy should not have a job in baseball.
"I would rather have a battalion of German soldiers in front of me than a platoon of French soldiers behind me."
by Where Triples Go to Die on
May 21, 2008 8:47 AM CDT
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I heard that as well...
He sounded like such a Cubs lover and a Sox hater there.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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yeah no shit
the cubs have been good but he is acting like that starting pitching could match up to ours. He really called them the best team in ALL of baseball! Someone has been drinkin that cubbie koolaid. He just irritates me more than any other sports writer in town. The sad thing is, Phil really thinks that he is a baseball expert.
"I would rather have a battalion of German soldiers in front of me than a platoon of French soldiers behind me."
by Where Triples Go to Die on
May 21, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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Now that he's got some juicy details up
Let’s confine what I’m sure to be the considerable discussion to the fanshot above this post.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on
May 21, 2008 1:13 AM CDT
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Q! and Paulie
Q! embarrassed Grady Sizemore in the 8th inning with his heads up baserunning. Lost in the summary was how bad Konerko looked on the bases loaded, no out, strike out. Two horrible swings and a taken third strike. HE NEEDS SOME BENCH TIME!
C'mon, Smokey! This isn't 'Nam, it's bowling. There are rules!
by thekever on May 21, 2008 6:55 AM CDT 0 recs
I got a little frustrated with Konerko at the game
And of course everyone around me defended him. I always forget about the unwritten rule that Paulie is not held accountable.
Bloggin'
http://bierjournal.blogspot.com/
by Six Pack on
May 21, 2008 7:44 AM CDT
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He probably needs to go on the DL.
He seems to actually be seeing the ball pretty well, at least most of the time. He’s just not driving the ball. He’s lost about 200 points of slugging this year.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 12:06 PM CDT
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We come not to praise CC, but to bury him.
Wish I’d said that yesterday.
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on May 21, 2008 9:06 AM CDT 0 recs
Pretty cute.
Keep working on that Q! AS vote slogan.
Pitching and defense.
by ballyb on
May 21, 2008 9:17 AM CDT
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I thought you decided on "I Got Q Babe"
And I think Nancy should start playing that every time he comes to the plate, with the lyrics subbing Q for you on the scoreboard. I think the fans would love it.
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 11:54 AM CDT
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Q Light Up My Life
Q light up my life
Q give me hope
To carry on
Q light up my days
and fill my nights with song
It can’t be wrong
When it feels so right
‘Cause Q
Q light up my life
"We're gonna bring it all day, everyday...we're gonna keep grinding it out." - Nick Swisher (4/1/08)
by tailgater on
May 21, 2008 12:28 PM CDT
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We have time.
“I Got Q Babe” is very good, IMO, but with all the creative minds we have here at SSS, let’s see what else pops up.
Pitching and defense.
by ballyb on
May 21, 2008 1:23 PM CDT
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God Must Have Spent a Little More Time on Q
That’s why he’s so dreamy!
by Ryno on
May 21, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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I thought "Superstar" by 'gater (or Chiburb) was the best
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 1:59 PM CDT
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+1
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 2:17 PM CDT
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Vronk!
I’m sure the Uribe takeout slide will be prominently mentioned in the Sox ‘08 World Series championship video. ;)
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
by Nordhagen on May 21, 2008 11:45 AM CDT 0 recs
No longer 2nd tier indeed
Trades will become very important as we move into the next month. Cleveland’s offense frankly is not good and I dont know how much of an improvement we should expect without help. They certainly have pitching depth to trade. Will Detroit take the flyer on Bonds? I still think their hits will come but reading that USA article on them yesterday highlights a host of other things wrong and we know about their pitching.
Things change but the most well rounded Central team right now is the Chicago White Sox. All of a sudden the half full guys dont seem so crazy on contention.
Most thought the 3-4-5 issue would be the most important. Well they have to get an A for the 1st quarter. 3 quarters to go.
by Tdogg on May 21, 2008 12:06 PM CDT 0 recs
Garko and Hafner...
will improve. Asdrubal Cabrera will probably improve.
On the other hand, Cliff Lee is simply not this good, nor is Fausto Carmona.
I still think the Indians will end up winning the division by 6+ games when all is said and done.
The key for the White Sox will be team health. They simply need all their starters to remain healthy if they want to have any shot whatsoever.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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And the Indians need to hit
Im sorry but your not going to no run yourself to a division title. Their offensive woes are problematic and their are cracks in the bullpen. Its funny there is the obvious love affair with Hafner and Sizemore, but Hafner is not that young and some time has passed. The team OPS+ is 85
6+ games? good luck.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 12:25 PM CDT
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Well, if we are to expect Konerko and Thome to improve...
we have to expect Hafner to improve, unless he just got off the juice.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:31 PM CDT
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I do.
My point was their offense has not really been good or even avg since what the all star break last year?
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 12:38 PM CDT
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Thanks to all the division teams
having some sort of woes (cold bats, weak bullpens, etc.), the Sox odds of making a playoff run are just as good as the rest of the teams. Of course, it’s still May and there’s a long way to go.
If the pitching remains steady and if Paulie, Swish and Thome ever start hitting…they could start putting some distance between them and the next guy (probably Cleveland or the Twins).
"We're gonna bring it all day, everyday...we're gonna keep grinding it out." - Nick Swisher (4/1/08)
by tailgater on
May 21, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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Not "as good"
but I think Q! invalidates much of what PECOTA has predicted for the team and as such, it’s definitely better than 10%.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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Obviously they need to start hitting.
I think they will. The main thing the Indians have going for them is that nobody else in the division has the talent that they do. They’re not a great team by any stretch of the imagination, but I could see them winning 87 games and still win the division by six.
My main concern with the White Sox’s chances in 2008 is their absolute lack of depth. They have nobody, either on the bench or in the minors, who can really step in if someone goes down (except maybe Brian Anderson), and they have some brittle players. If Joe Crede goes down, for instance, what then? What if (heaven forfend) Pierzynski goes down? There are absolutely massive dropoffs between the starting nine and their replacements.
I also expect major regression from Contreras and Floyd as the season progresses, although I think Buehrle’s numbers will improve. And they have cracks in the bullpen, as well.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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it would be good if the player who went down was joe crede
josh fields, anyone?
i, and others, have said this before: the sox have little margin for error. they can’t afford injuries (or, by extension, really subpar performance from players). if the sox stay as healthy as they are now throughout the season, they’ve got a shot. if JD or PK or AJ go down, watch out. because it’s pretty thin behind those player.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 12:45 PM CDT
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And god forbid...
that Quentin slump badly or get hurt.
Right now, the difference between the White Sox offense and the Indians offense is Quentin.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 12:59 PM CDT
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So I guess
AJ, Dye and Crede haven’t counted this year? Hmmm. Me thinks this year (not long term) our offensive prospects are a lot better. (Again health is a key but everybody wont get hurt)
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 1:03 PM CDT
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Right now, in terms of offensive production...
Pierzynski/Crede/Dye = Martinez/Sizemore/Francisco.
And the Indians only have one black hole of suck (Asdrubal Cabrera) instead of two.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 1:29 PM CDT
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Jer right now
The team hitter VORP is 40.6 compared to Cleveland’s 8. Lower than KC’s 8.5
Change that = to > and your all good. Not to mention Francisco has 50 abs.
Saying take out any team’s best player for a comparsion seems sort of wierd.
Even Thome’s .265 EQA would rank 2 or 3rd on Cleveland’s team now depending on number of PAs.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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I was more talking about going forward...
than what they’ve done so far. I like Francisco.
I’m not saying the Indians are as good as the White Sox offensively, but I am saying that most of the difference is Quentin. The Indians don’t have someone like him.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 2:27 PM CDT
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Okay JRE
“They’re not a great team by any stretch of the imagination, but I could see them winning 87 games and still win the division by six.”
I too worry about health but it has to be reasonable. When its all said and done the team still does an excellent job keeping their players healthy.
And Im sorry could a bullpen be better? Yes but an 11th spot is not a crack. There have been some rough patches but the bullpen has been good and better than Cleveland’s.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 12:47 PM CDT
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I don't have any faith...
in any reliever not named Jenks or Linebrink at this point in time.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 1:00 PM CDT
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Dotel was tired on Sunday
The man has been sick lately.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 1:07 PM CDT
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I like Dotel and all of his K's...
but he still has a 1.55 WHIP to go along with his sweet 14 K/9. He can get wild out there, even when he is 100%. JRE has a point.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 1:12 PM CDT
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Not since his rocky beginning he hasnt.
Sunday sticks out but it hasnt been the norm and even better he has done it in high lev situations.
Opponents line vs him in May .182/.325.182 And thats bumped with his Sunday outing and a .350 BABIP avg.
Again we have our own issues but is the bullpen really one of them right now in the grand scheme of things and comparing the competition?
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 1:21 PM CDT
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right but there's no reason to expect him to continue at this pace, right?
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 2:45 PM CDT
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No he certainly cant.
But Thornton, Logan and the rest make up the whole bullpen. Again not a huge issue. You disagree?
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 2:49 PM CDT
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Having two good pitchers to pitch high leverage innings is
more or less average, right? I think between Thornton, Logan and Dotel, we’ve got another one at any given time, so I think things look pretty good.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 2:57 PM CDT
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And Konerko
JRE – a hate machine.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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I don't hate Konerko.
I just think he’s overrated.
I do hate Dotel, though.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 2:09 PM CDT
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But is he a pretty hate machine?
(in my best Stewie impression) Does he have…nine inch nails? Hahahaha
Okay, that was lame.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
by rhythm on
May 21, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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Sick as in good
“Not bad meaning bad but bad meaning good”
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 1:23 PM CDT
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Is being 6 games better than these White Sox really so hard?
even if we are in the top tier in the Central, I think it’s also clear we aren’t top tier in the AL.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT
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does it matter?
How many wild cards have made/won the WS in the last few years?
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 2:24 PM CDT
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The Wild Card...
probably won’t come from the AL Central.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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My point wasn't that the Sox will be the Wild Card,
it was that you don’t have to be “elite” to succeed once in the playoffs! They COULD win this division with 87 wins, hardly ‘top tier’, and end up with the trophy (signing the cross).
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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Anything can happen in the playoffs...
I agree.
But I would be really pleasantly surprised if this team ended up in the playoffs.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 2:51 PM CDT
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not being in the top tier of the AL does
and since I just suggested that being 6 games better than these White Sox isn’t hard, I can’t say I suspect winning the division title at this point is likely.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 3:22 PM CDT
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With 87 wins?
Umm yes it is hard for me to see right now.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 2:32 PM CDT
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You think that a .500 record...
is “hard to see”?
by The Jerry Royster Experience on
May 21, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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do you mean it's hard to see how the indians would win that many?
i’ll give you a simple reason: their pythag is 25-20. they should win about that many. whether one thinks they’ll be six games better than the sox, well, that’s something else.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:36 PM CDT
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No I easily could see 87 wins
His statement was, even with 87 wins that being 6+ better than the Sox. I dont see that.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 2:38 PM CDT
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We didnt believe in the fall of the Berlin Wall until
A brick hit the CIA in the head on the way down and JRE wont believe this is a better than .500 team unless its 5 games left and they are 6 over.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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wouldn't surprise me at all
starters come back to earth and an injury to a key player. both of these should not be unexpected (some, like me, would argue they should be expected).
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:42 PM CDT
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'also' 'as well'...
Where are the college kids when you need them?
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 2:46 PM CDT
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being distracted by SSS when I have 18 pages worth of papers due tomorrow that i havent started. calling the english major...
It is better to be thought of as a fool, rather than open your mouth to remove all doubt
by whitesoxmatt on
May 21, 2008 2:47 PM CDT
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Site downtime today: most productive I've been since April 1
Keep your eye on the $$$, not SSS!
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 2:57 PM CDT
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yeah? what?
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 3:24 PM CDT
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wanna use all your brain power to write a 8 to 10 page paper
on how my modern and contemporary theater class has influenced my thinking and how it is a part of my liberal arts education?
It is better to be thought of as a fool, rather than open your mouth to remove all doubt
by whitesoxmatt on
May 21, 2008 4:11 PM CDT
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lol
Lay off Im flipping back and forth. I do good sometimes. And I hate to repeat myself repetitively.
by Tdogg on
May 21, 2008 2:51 PM CDT
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tdogg, i think they're an above .500 team
if everyone plays regularly. you know, the basis for the white sox below .500 projections by things like PECOTA is primarily predicated on shit players getting too much playing time, in large measure because of injuries to key players. i don’t believe it is probable that this team stays injury free. or, connected with that statement to a degree, that the starters will be as good as they have been so far. if they manage to do that, 85 wins is probably a good target.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:52 PM CDT
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i think that's what i took the under.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 3:23 PM CDT
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*why
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
by colintj on
May 21, 2008 3:24 PM CDT
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