Wilder details leaked?
Here is the concept of what was going on (and no, this is not something that happens throughout the industry - and the Chicago White Sox did not "find this out and report it to MLB." It was found out by MLB & reported to the White Sox through arrests & warrants).
Dave Wilder and his staff were in control of California (most of the Western part of the USA), and all Latin American operations (including Cuba, etc.). Wilder signed many (MANY!) latin-americans to rather large contracts (+ $100,000) who had no representation in the latin-countries. Now - for anyone who knows and understands latin scouting - there are almost ZERO players without latin representation (meaning - players in these countries are in academies run by agents from these countries who then sell players off to MLB teams to put in their own academies). Now - when a player has no representation - there is generally a reason, i.e., they're terrible. Now - what happened was this:
Wilder would find these players and sign them for a large amount of money (as mentioned above) and then take their money as their "agent." Now - he had to get permission to pass these players off & what he was doing was supplying these players with fake birth cerficates taking as many as 5 years off their age & also supplying them with HGH & steroids (even as they were in MiLB). He was then taking this money and putting it into an off-shore account, taking the maximum amount possible at any given time and washing it through a business he opened up in Arizona that rehabs houses.
2 months ago
The Cheat
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I posted a link in the other thread before he posted the above
this is worth a post of its own.
I know some of you don’t believe this guy, but I’ve got to link it. The plausibility factor is far too high to ignore.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on May 21, 2008 1:12 AM CDT 0 recs
yeah bureauemployee17
I can’t even remember what that other crap he was pushing was. Well this should prove one way or another whether this guy has any credibility. It will come out an we shall see.
by bhoov on May 21, 2008 1:18 AM CDT 0 recs
Of his scouting reports
He only really differed from what I’d heard on two occasions
1. Jose Martinez’ arm - He had him as a 1B/LFer in the future -
2. what I can only describe as a gross overrating of Kent Gerst, who he kept laughably comparing to Jacoby Ellsbury.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on
May 21, 2008 1:21 AM CDT
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and his inability to distinguish between kyle mcculloch and aaron poreda.
kind of a big thing.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
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And according to BureauEmployee171...
our Latin stud 16 year old SS Juan Silverio is actually 20.5 years old, not 16.
Whoops.
by SSH2005 on May 21, 2008 1:31 AM CDT 0 recs
Sounds like
The only funny scene from Benchwarmers
Bloggin'
http://bierjournal.blogspot.com/
by Six Pack on
May 21, 2008 7:48 AM CDT
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we should get some idea of silveiro soon
Richar should start a minor-league rehab assignment by the end of the month. Silverio started in extended spring and will report to a minor league club in mid-June. The Sox are giving him every opportunity to get acclimated to professional baseball.http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/askthewriter/...
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
by The Wizard on
May 21, 2008 1:57 PM CDT
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BureauEmployee171 also says that...
Anderson Gomes was caught with PED’s after being in the Futures Game and Paulo Orlando’s hyped up speed is a myth. Both are Wilder’s “sign-and-collect” prospects.
by SSH2005 on May 21, 2008 2:02 AM CDT 0 recs
He also makes it sounds like...
Kenny’s relationship with Wilder is one of the big reasons that our farm system is shit…
Duane Schaffer is a very, very intelligent baseball mind. He was very, very responsible for a LOT of good times/players in ChiSox history – from Frank Thomas, Alex Fernandez, Jack McDowell, to Mark Buehrle, etc. He took a lot of hits behind the scenes from Wilder who eventually got the pull from a “good friend” to give him leverage over Schaffer.
by SSH2005 on May 21, 2008 2:13 AM CDT 0 recs
Is that accurate?
I know Schaffer scouted McDowell. But Thomas and Fernandez? I’m not so sure. And Buehrle? A 30th round pick of a Schueler draft? I’m doubting that Schaffer personally scouted him, but I obviously don’t know for sure. This sounds like piling on.
by hitlesswonder on
May 21, 2008 8:09 AM CDT
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Holy crap.
About as bad as it gets, if in fact it is fact.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on May 21, 2008 7:27 AM CDT 0 recs
Well..
This would help explain the awful farm system. This is just horrible if true.
by Grinder in Training on May 21, 2008 7:28 AM CDT 0 recs
Yes, it's a factor. But...
Refusing to deal with the agent who reps much of the great talent, combined with refusing to pay over-slot money, adds to our woes.
IMHO
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 7:33 AM CDT
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The Trifecta!
Cheat suggested this could involve money, document falsification, or PEDs. In fact, its got all three. I can’t wait for MLB to come down on the Sox organization for this. I would imagine stripping them of draft picks would be one possibility.
by hitlesswonder on May 21, 2008 8:02 AM CDT 0 recs
Would MLB go after the Sox?
Aren’t the Sox punished by the fact their scout has been giving them bad players, and stealing money from the team? I mean.. the Sox didn’t benefit from this, that’s for sure.
Their reputation in South America / Central America is going to be hurt by this, the players they have been paying for are apparently not worth the money or 5 years older then advertised, and they’ve basically had an employee stealing from them. That seems like a pretty big punishment as it is.
by Grinder in Training on
May 21, 2008 8:09 AM CDT
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IMO, this is the big question.
Pitching and defense.
by ballyb on
May 21, 2008 8:28 AM CDT
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They work for the Sox, the Sox are responsible.
If their own internal controls could not detect such abuses the Sox have more problems than being stripped of a draft pick or two.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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Who else should get fired ?
In any other organization I would think a scandal of this magnitude would result in the GM’s job being in question. I’m sure it’s not here.
But if BE171 is employed by the Sox, he should absolutely get canned for posting the details of the scandal. In his time posting on soxtalk the guy has repeatedly said the KW is an idiot, has divulged info that conceivably diminished the trade value of Sox prospects (Poreda) and has now leaked details of what is an ongoing criminal investigation that surely has legal ramifications for the organization. How does this guy have a job?It all shows incredibly poor judgment.
by hitlesswonder on May 21, 2008 8:21 AM CDT 0 recs
"How does this guy have a job?"
Compared to Wilder, BE171 would appear to be employee of the year. No embezzlement, drug pushing, or forgery. I smell a raise
BE171’s information seems mostly credible (I had a lengthy argument about pitching mechanics with him where we got tied up in semantics), but I don’t believe he is who he says he is. My guess is he’s the son of a current scout/coach.
by 3E8 on
May 21, 2008 11:24 AM CDT
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uh huh
there is no way any real employee of the white sox would post something like this. set aside anything else he’s written before. a sox employee commenting on an ongoing federal investigation would simply not happen.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 11:28 AM CDT
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wtgtd
We shall reach greater and greater platitudes of achievment.
by Chiburb on
May 21, 2008 11:33 AM CDT
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well, i'd put some more stock into it than that
the guy clearly is a baseball person at some level. and probably has the ear of people “in the know” to some degree. but white sox employee himself? no way.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 11:40 AM CDT
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oh, and if this is true
KW’s job should certainly be in question. baseball is a chummy game so that’s the reason it’d only be “in question.” just about any other business and he’d be canned (rightly or wrongly, you decide).
by larry on
May 21, 2008 11:52 AM CDT
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Kenny should almost be fired for NOT knowing about this... if he truly didn't know.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:09 PM CDT
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i doubt KW knew about this
it’s just difficult for me to reconcile his near-maniacal focus on winning with knowledge of a scheme that would directly hinder the organization’s ability to do just that.
however, it’s easier to believe that he may have promoted his buddy wilder on the basis of croneism and/or the rose-colored glasses of friendship rather than merit, which is still a strike against him but hardly a fireable offense, in my book.
obviously, if he knew anything about the scam wilder was running, he should be fired immediately. and, as you allude to, not knowing about it points to a severe ‘lack of institutional control,’ as they say, which would greatly call into question kenny’s ability to handle all aspects of the GM role.
by Ryno on
May 21, 2008 12:17 PM CDT
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wilder was well thought of in baseball
i don’t think KW can be faulted for hiring him and putting him into the position he was in. the oversight is the issue. and, when you have as widespread of a conspiracy in your organization as this seems to have been, it’s tough to ferret it out. how many guys are you going to have double-checking scouting work? even if you do, since this is a rather subjective field, does it really matter much if people disagree or question? it’s going to take a while (like, years) to see a pattern of horribly shitty signings from a certain group of scouts or area.
it’s easy to see how this could be sold on KW. “yeah, kenny, we’re finding diamonds in the rough. we don’t have the relationships that other teams have in the DR (or wherever) so we need to do it this way until the academy is up and running. we’re also looking to get a foothold in some less saturated markets, like brazil.” it makes intuitive good sense to do this and sounds like a good plan (heck, it probably is a good plan, if you’re not also doing all these other things that are alleged).
by larry on
May 21, 2008 12:28 PM CDT
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yeah
as i thought more about what could’ve been done to discover this scam earlier, i realized that the time frame wasn’t long enough for basic oversight to catch it. as you say, it would take years for the pattern to emerge. so the only other way you’d discover it is maybe through inconsistencies in financial records (which may also take a while to emerge) or a whistleblower. otherwise, you are pretty much at the mercy of your subordinates, and KW just got screwed. i can’t really see JR firing him for it, though.
the other thing i wonder is, how much money was wilder making off this scam? i’m sure he already makes a salary in the mid six figures, so he shouldn’t be hurting for cash. i guess some people just can’t resist a fast buck.
by Ryno on
May 21, 2008 12:36 PM CDT
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which is why the argument
“pay the scouts more” to prevent skimming is silly. people like this will steal because they can. poor people steal. rich people steal. everyone in the middle, too.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 12:37 PM CDT
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That's what makes this even more sickening...
Wilder was probably already making a good salary. To be that greedy and risk so much for even more money is disgusting.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:37 PM CDT
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well, that would be the grounds for firing
basically being “too” trusting of a subordinate. whether one could have actually known about this is another question altogether – and would be irrelevant in most businesses.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 12:19 PM CDT
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With how many people work for KW
I’m sure checking if his friend is stealing from his team was not on the top of his priority list.
I can’t imagine he even considered his best friend would do something like this. I’m sure you would trust your good friends more then most if you were there boss. That’s just human nature.
by Grinder in Training on
May 21, 2008 12:32 PM CDT
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When running a business or a company or a team...
You don’t just trust your friends, hell, you don’t even trust your family. That isn’t a good defense for Kenny at all.
by SSH2005 on
May 21, 2008 12:35 PM CDT
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how many total people work for KW isn't really the relevant consideration
how many people are directly supervised by KW? not many. if wilder hadn’t been involved in this himself and it was just the scouts working under him, KW would have a much stronger argument. you can’t really use the “it’s a big organization” argument when it’s someone you directly supervise – again, rightly or wrongly.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 12:36 PM CDT
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Didn't see this before I posted above, but I agree completely
As a former securities regional compliance director (and arbitrator) having had a firm go through anal probes by the SEC/NASD/State of FL last century when an advisor stole $ from his clients I can tell you that “internal controls” concerns are huge where the Feds/state folks are concerned. Substitute OCC, FTC, FTA, DEA, and Immigration and it doesn’t look good.
Sure, KW could fry for this. Right or wrong, he’s the boss and suffers much of the consequence for his poor decision in hiring an alleged crook.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 12:58 PM CDT
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re
having had a firm go through anal probes
did you use lots of lube?
:p
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
by The Wizard on
May 21, 2008 1:22 PM CDT
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If
Let’s just wait and see. It could be simply that the Latin American scouts were skimming and Wilder got fired for lack of oversight. I really put no stock in what be171 says. This is IMO more likely to be BE171 taking the “skimming” revelation and concoting a sensational story that would make him the talk of CWS blogs. And if that was his goal then guess what it worked.
If he’s lying about who he is (as most of us believe) that’s not a good credibility starting point. But time will tell. If there is a sensational story like that, it’s only a matter of time before a legitimate source reports it.
by bhoov on May 21, 2008 12:53 PM CDT 0 recs
i really love how this guy provided a "teaser" before he posted the story
does wonders.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 12:58 PM CDT
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As an aside...
Link is removed on Front Office page, but his info page is still up.
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/team/exe_bios/wilder_david.html
by madopal on May 21, 2008 1:08 PM CDT 0 recs
Williams stays pat in hands-off approach
Since Ken Williams took over as White Sox general manager following the 2000 season, his management style has remained consistent.http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080520&content_id=2737990&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cwsUltimately, the success of the franchise and its depiction as an organization falls upon his shoulders, but Williams has never been one to micro-manage. He trusts in the people employed below him in the chain of command.
Following the termination of employment of David Wilder, the team’s senior director of player personnel, and two scouts prior to Friday’s Interleague opener in San Francisco, it would be easy for that trust shown by Williams to be destroyed. If nothing else, Williams’ belief system had to be challenged. Wilder and two scouts were dismissed for club policy and standards infractions in Latin American recruiting.
But Williams explained before the start of his team’s six-game homestand Tuesday how he hopes to follow the same business approach he always has used.
“I won’t say that it hasn’t taken me back a little bit,” said Williams of the dismissal of Wilder, his employee since November, 2003. “Yet, I’m a firm believer in a couple of things in our management style here.
“That’s to have an all-inclusive management style, meaning even some of the younger guys in the front office I bring into meetings and discuss various things. If you hire a farm director or scouting director, let them go out and do their jobs.
“This same sort of opportunity was afforded to me when I was a farm director, so it’s an easy thing for me to do. If you hire quality people, you don’t have to stand over their shoulder. We do have quality people in the organization.
“I’ll have to restructure some things a little bit, and I’ll probably have to use [director of player development Alan] Regier more on scouting, and to pick up the slack,” Williams added. “The answer to the question is I’ll continue to manage the one way I know how, but at the same time, I can’t deny [Wilder’s dismissal]. It is what it is.” ...
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
by The Wizard on May 21, 2008 1:26 PM CDT 0 recs
For the skeptics
I know for a fact that BE’s initial story was vetted by the admins over at Soxtalk before his first post. Maybe Heads/Cross Cyed can chime in here… And while he could be using his built up internet cred to create a fantastical story, that fantastical story seems to pass the smell test. Plus I’ve just been assured that the Soxtalk team has done their homework once again as this story unfolds. I can’t say with 100% certainty that everything he’s written is true, but I’m as sure about it as one can be about info that initially appears on the internet.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on May 21, 2008 1:26 PM CDT 0 recs
Yeah, we've got that 1919 history, too
Tell me if any of this is true it won’t be linked in the media. Go ahead, tell me.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
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What does vetted mean?
Does that mean they have confirmed somehow that he is who he says he is? Or do they have some independent sources that confirm his story?
by bhoov on
May 21, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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I think his information is fairly accurate
And I fully expect the Wilder fiasco will be shown to be what he says. But I find a number of things implausible:
1) Commenting on an ongoing federal investigation.
2) His lauding of Schaffer as responsible for Thomas, Fernandez, and Buehrle being drafted.
3) Ripping apart Poreda and thereby damaging his trade value
Not to mention the fact he has clear disdain for Williams.
Obviously, an organization that lets an international criminal run amateur scouting could easily condone what BE has posted I suppose. But given Williams hatred for “leaks” in the organization, I think its implausible that he really is in the Sox employ. But not impossible I suppose.
by hitlesswonder on
May 21, 2008 2:04 PM CDT
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Didn't this guy post some hair-raising stuff around the beginning of the year?
I remember specifically we wondered if it was for real, and the consensus was that IN NO WAY would a guy within the organization go public with the info at that time (was it the HGH stuff in Orlando? I can’t recall, but it’s the same guy.).
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 2:08 PM CDT
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why?
what about this info from a guy that you think is actually lying about who he is inspires confidence? This may be true or it may not. I don’t know. But unless others have corroborating info I have no basis to believe his info is accurate.
by bhoov on
May 21, 2008 2:08 PM CDT
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He's been accurate in the past
I think he has access to good info an knows a lot about baseball. I just have trouble believing he’s really a Sox employee.
by hitlesswonder on
May 21, 2008 2:18 PM CDT
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I enjoy the part where he says that this started with the 2004 draft
if only I could come up with some high-round overdrafts out of California to support his story…
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on May 21, 2008 1:32 PM CDT 0 recs
Lucy has to be too high profile a pick for that...doesn't he?
There’s several high-mid round picks that would be good guesses though.
by hitlesswonder on
May 21, 2008 1:52 PM CDT
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I find it hard to believe
They wouldn’t have quite a few scouts take a long look at any potential first rd. draft pick, I can’t imagine they would rely on just one or two guys for their first rd. pick… but then again it really was an awful pick I guess, that just seems too ridiculous.
Not to mention if your stealing from the company I don’t think you’d want to risk it on something that would be as scrutizined as the first rd. pick.
by Grinder in Training on
May 21, 2008 2:01 PM CDT
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lucy was a second round pick
and he certainly wasn’t an awful pick for being 60th or so.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:03 PM CDT
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uh, no
obviously. what do you think you get at #60? if you wanted someone else to be picked there, fine. but that was about where he was ranked.
as cheat points out, whisler would be a much more likely candidate.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:09 PM CDT
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My mistake
None the less.. a second round pick is still pretty high, and if I doubt he’d risk anything with a pick that high, that would get that much scrutiny.
by Grinder in Training on
May 21, 2008 3:04 PM CDT
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No way
We’re talking about players kicking back parts of their signing bonus to Wilder. There’s no way that a player as high-profile as Lucy or Whisler would do that. They may be bad picks, but they were well-known players that had legit shots at being major leaguers. I strongly doubt
1) that they would agree to it
2) that it wouldn’t be discovered in that high of a pick
by hitlesswonder on
May 21, 2008 2:16 PM CDT
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i tend to agree
but who knows? it would explain some of the odd decisions, like whisler. and the stupidity/greed of people never ceases to amaze me.
however, i’d be looking more at picks in rounds like 4 or 5 who were from small colleges, juco or high school. the money in those rounds is still pretty decent, you’re more likely to have a guy repped by no one or a less savory character, more likely to have a guy who isn’t a legit prospect who’d be looking for some easy cash, more likely to be dealing with a player others haven’t scouted as much, and overall more likely to get less scrutiny.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT
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Yes
“No Way” was too strong - greed and stupidity are prevalent too make it impossible. But I think it’s really, really unlikely in the high round picks. They, and their agents, have a lot to lose and don’t gain that much. The lower round picks change the equation - you have unknown or no agent and the guys gets a shot a pro ball that he wouldn’t have had maybe at all plus money. In that case, I can see it happening.
by hitlesswonder on
May 21, 2008 2:38 PM CDT
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there’s really no excuse for him to be taken ahead of a college player of the year candidate…
The egregious one is Whisler, who was behind teammate Casey Jansenn in the rotation, and all all draft boards. Nobody reallty understood that pick, or even what position the Sox would use him at…
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on
May 21, 2008 2:04 PM CDT
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fanning the flames... Reiger fires as well
http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=64794&st=0&#entry1643573
As of today at 12:00 CT – (only about 9 people in the ENTIRE organization know this – but I’ll priviledge you all with the info. – and I don’t know when/if it will be made public since the front office is in utter turmoil):Farm Director Alan Regier has been fired. He was Dave Wilder’s right-hand-man through all of this and PERSONALLY appointed by Kenny Williams & Wilder. This is GREAT NEWS!!! Outside of Wilder – Regier was the single most despised person by our entire staff. He was the one who made the “decisions” on who went where & when. Wilder was Regier’s “pimp” in that he hired Regier and told him where to put his players. The funny thing is – a Farm Director makes about 100K/season (not peanuts, but not extravagent either) and Regier was driving around in a 150+ K Porsche and wearing a 15 K watch with 500+ dollar shoes & belts. You don’t make that kind of money as a Farm Director.
Getting Wilder & Regier out – best news in a long time for the Sox system. Buddy Bell will now be taking over (if you remember, I told you all this was starting to churn out last fall when we were all brought in) and this should start a much better cycle of White Sox baseball from the inside out. It will take a couple years to get this all turned around with player development but this is much, much better news than anything I’ve personally heard and seen since arriving on the job.
Been trying to tell you guys what a big deal this has been since I first started the reports last fall when I said these guys you’re reading about are NOT PROSPECTS by ANY MEANS* I hope this is further proof that I have been 100% honest. I’m breaking this story to you before ANYONE has heard it – including many guys in the organization themselves.
Our staff, with Buddy, will get it turned around now & with full vigor.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on May 21, 2008 2:13 PM CDT 0 recs
that's pretty odd
considering KW was just talking about leaning more heavily on regier since these reports came out. that would imply there is some “utter turmoil” going on.
by larry on
May 21, 2008 2:15 PM CDT
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You'll know fairly soon how accurate these "leaks" are
AIM: SouthSideCheat
by The Cheat on
May 21, 2008 2:16 PM CDT
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Now if this
winds up being true consider me a believer that everything else is true. As Cheat states we will know soon. News such as that will come out in the next 24 hrs., if not sooner.
by bhoov on
May 21, 2008 2:20 PM CDT
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and if only about 9 people in the org know,
then it should be easy for the org to find the mole.
And easy for the mole to have his access to information removed. Blabbing this on the internet is a good way to not hear anything juicy again.
He can’t be in the org. At best, he’s a friend of a friend.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
by Nordhagen on
May 21, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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KW's seat has just gotten hotter.
Absolutely. Sounds like complete disarray. Major story. Major. They are taking everyone out and shooting them even before being told by Big Brother (Uncle Sam) to do so.
I took the "under".
by winningugly on
May 21, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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speaking of uncle sam
go to the front page!
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
by The Wizard on
May 21, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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