White Sox Hit Snooze Button
by The Cheat on May 5, 2008 12:22 AM CDT
in White Sox Game Recaps
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PrintI'm a heavy sleeper -- I've been known to sleep through nearly anything. Dogs barking, lightning crashing, my alarm ringing, I can sleep through them all -- So too is the White Sox offense.
Bonser and Blackburn barked; the Sox offense caught some Zzzz's. Marcum rang, Litsch crashed; the Sox bats slumbered.
It would have been surprising if they were roused from their hibernation by a perennial Cy Young contender coming off 4 consecutive complete games. And in that respect, the Sox did not disappoint. Roy Halladay breezed through the Sox lineup the first time through the order, perfect through 3.
In the 4th inning, however, the offense showed some signs of life. The Sox sent 8 men to the plate, and pushed 3 runs across. They managed only one baserunner after the 4th inning. The offense was not awake, it was merely rolling over, adjusting before nodding back off. The outburst might have just been gas.
* * * * *
It says a lot about the makeup of the team that when Ozzie needs to shake up the lineup, he turns to Pablo Ozuna, who was always a fringy talent but now has become an outright liability. Ozuna can't play defense, or at least he's below average at all of the positions he supposedly can play. He doesn't have the speed he once did, and he's hit just .239/.271/.313 with 4 stolen bases in the last 22 months.
With numbers like that, it's little wonder that I stoop so low as to bring up the name Jerry Owens. Some have felt vindicated by that mention. But Owens is not a savior. He's not even a good baseball player. He's a 4th outfielder at best. My mention of Owens was an indictment of how bad Jermaine Dye looked at the plate, not praise for the unique skill set of one Jerry Owens.
Still, Owens is on the tip of beat writers' tongues. Joe Cowley has already proclaimed it "Jerry Owens Time," while Mark Gonzales is leading off his recaps with thinly veiled pleas to add Owens to the mix. It's little wonder that Ozzie Guillen has grown tired of all the lineup suggestions.
I can understand all the calls for Owens. I don't agree with them, but I understand them. It's the same reason I was willing to drive Greg Walker out of town at this time last year. When something's not working, you make some changes. Last season, I thought the best move was to can Walker. And while I still think a fresh voice would do a world of good, I've become resigned to the fact that Walker has perpetually renewable contract at least until 2012.
For the sake of my own mental health, I've decided to drop the calls for Walker's head. He's part of the problem, but only a small part of it. This is where I agree with Ozzie.
"[Nick] Swisher, [Orlando] Cabrera, Konerko, [Jim] Thome, [Jermaine] Dye, A.J. [Pierzynski] and [Joe] Crede, they don't need coaches. They need to get their heads out of their asses and start hitting."
Walker or no Walker, Owens or no Owens, that core has to hit. If they don't, the Sox will continue their slide down the AL Central standings. Simple as that.
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i agree with ozzie's comment, too
but when did it become acceptable to not blame the hitting coach for over a year of bad hitting? if walker is immune to any blame, then isn’t this a profound indictment of the product that kw has payed S100M+ for? i know the vast majority of the blame goes on the individual hitters not getting the job done. that being said, what exactly is the point of a “hitting coach” if there is no accountability for the team’s hitting? is it ceremonial? the criteria for keeping a hitting coach has to be results based, right? so even if walker is just the fall guy, someone has to take responsibility for the sox lack of hitting. you can’t fire the whole team. this is about the largest shake-up that can be done in season. the players have been quick to defend walker, but there is no defending the numbers if we are to believe in the ‘talent’ kenny has brought together. doesn’t this seem like exactly the time when ‘a new perspective’ or ‘a fresh point of view’ or ‘a different philosophy’ would make sense? or do the sox have to wait until the season truly is lost before there can be some admission of failure with the team’s offense?
i wish someone had told me that sss had replaced rationality with caps lock.
yeah, it is basically a ceremonial position
there’s a reason it’s listed just above the bullpen coach in the media guide.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
but hitting coach is such a convenient scapegoat. he has what the sox lack right in his title.
i wish someone had told me that sportsnation had replaced rationality with caps lock.
Yeah.
It probably won’t help anything, but if it’ll make the fans happy to throw Walker to the wolves, it probably won’t hurt, either.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 5, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
i still don't get
everyone thinking Owens is something special, he is no better then a poor man’s Juan Pierre. I agree with cheat that this bring back old sox love is getting old, and Walker should have been canned, truth is I never thought any coach was that special over the last few years except for Joe Nossek, but Cooper has proved me wrong, but the thing that pisses me off with Walker is that we can’t hit, bunt, or even take 5 seconds and call timeout to throw a pitcher off his rhythem when he’s mowing us down.
I also usually enjoy’s Ozzie’s sarcasm, but what the hell did he expect from Uribe and Pablo, I would really like to see Richar get healthy and we just eat the rest of the million we owe and cut him loose, not sure how his options work out.
by BestKosherPolish on May 5, 2008 1:06 AM CDT reply actions
"no better then a poor man's Juan Pierre"
I think “no better than Juan Pierre” would have been enough. Owens can at least play defense.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions
So many things wrong with starting Owens that I don't even know how to argue against it
How can anyone think that adding a destitute man’s juan pierre generates offense.
Wait…here’s my best argument against it…Owens is like Ken Griffey Jr. Where the hell would he play? We all know the answer would be that the youngest player sits—so the Sox would end up benching Quentin with his 1.000 OPS and non-unique skill set to get some speed in the lineup. If that’s not wrong, nothing is.
We should probably eat Ozuna's contract
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
LOL!
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
this is starting to look like the Bush administration
with Walker = Rumsfeld/Brown/Tenet:
general questions:
Q: Hey, your guy doesn’t seem to be doing very well. How do explain the poor performance?
A: No, he’s doing great.
Q: OK, how do you explain this metric/statistic/number/fact?
A: Well, its very hard work.
Q: Don’t you think he should be replaced?
A: No, he’s working very hard.
Q: But couldn’t someone else work just as hard, but maybe get better results?
A: No, that would be the exact WRONG thing to do. I have my full confidence in him. He’s really working very hard. And its hard work. Be patient. Stay the course.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
"Walkie's doing a great job."
(Walker is in Georgia, incommunicado.)
A hitting coach doesn’t need to teach hitting, but he does need to (perhaps) understand what gets in individual guys’ ways of performance. Even pro’s need to get their heads on straight every now and again with a little help from an objective 3rd party. Coop’s obviously a better psychologist than is Walkie, as evidenced by how the pitchers respond to Cppo via their performance.
Can Coop teach “imagine you are on a ship, gently rocking, gently rocking”?
I took the "under".
yeah, shit, even Tiger Woods has a swing coach.
And he’s not afraid to replace him if he needs a jolt. Even though Tiger knows how to swing. I just think a new perspective couldnt hurt.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
Hey, I use that line
whenever someone says they manage their own investments! Nice. (And salient – who tells you have a hole in your swing? Your trusted advisor!)
I took the "under".
I'm a consultant
so I also tell clients I’m a trusted advisor. I also like to say to them, my opinion must be worth a lot, because you are paying for it. :)
I’m sure you and the multitude of financiers/lawyers/etc on this site know what I mean.
“Billable Hours FIVE!”
- The Todd on Scrubs
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
This really sucks
The Sox needed everything to fall into place to get to the playoffs this year, and a lot of that has happened – they’ve gotten spectacular starting pitching, their main division opponents CLE and DET have gotten off to slow starts, and the Sox have had a healthy roster.
All this falls into place, and they’re a game under .500 in early May. They had their chance and they blew it. They needed to get some breathing room on the division while they had a healthy roster.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
Agreed
but then I look at Cle and Det and realize as bad as we have looked… we are still better than both of those teams. BTW what the hell happened to Travis Hafner? I smell HGH.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
You must have one powerful nose
It is better to be thought of as a fool, rather than open your mouth to remove all doubt
baseball tonight yesterday
showed about 10 different mechanical things that are different with hafner early last year and again this year that are different than his better-hitting days. everything from his weight distribution, hand placement before the pitch, and angle of his swing is way off. he may have been on some PEDs, but it could be entirely mechanical (leading to mental) with him.
Repeat after me: reading comprehension, even a little bit of thought before posting, and basic research are not signs of weakness.
by Toonderstrook on May 5, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
I saw that too where his bat is flat before he swings compared to slightly cocked a couple of years ago. The only reason I brought up HGH is because he may be dropping the bat early because he can not catch up to fast balls like he used to. He almost has the Julio Franco swing now. Regardless, we need a dose of some Tiger pitching right now.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Whom are we looking at above us
oh, yes, the Twins. Aren’t they in a rebuilding year? We will play them 3 games this week and then go west we should know something about the team very quickly. I pray we wake up but this team is too old and too well paid to work hard enough to recover. Quentin and Swisher must look around and wonder what they have gotten into.
Keep dreaming
This team had a golden opportunity, and they couldn’t do anything with it. We just completed a stretch of 17 games on one of the weakest segments of the schedule, 3 games against the Yankees and the other 14 against teams that are probably going to end the year under .500 – and the Sox go 6-11 during this stretch.
And they go 6-11 when they get probably the best run of starting pitching all year, and they go 6-11 with their “A” lineup intact except for two games that JD sat out because of injury.
Of course anything can happen from here on out, but when you have your chances you have to jump on it. They really screwed the pooch here big time.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
Pete, last week you made a statement that shocked me.
Mas o menos – “I love this offense. They’ll mash when the weather gets nice.”
I didn’t detect sarcasm.
Please update.
Pitching and defense.
You can't entertain two distinct thoughts at the same time?
A) I think they’ll hit this summer, this is just a slump currently.
B) They had a golden opportunity these past 17 games, and they pissed it away.
B does not negate A.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
that distinction seemed pretty obvious (and reasonable) to me
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF, IF
the hitting picks up to close to league average (.255ish, .330 OBP), the Sox will have a 88+ win season, IMO.
The pitching will not degrade materially, IMO.
Pitching and defense.
Ill keep dreaming
I agree they blew a nice opportunity but I really don’t understand your confidence in our division opponents right now. Why? Who are you in love with? Even with the horrific week the Sox still have one of the better run differential in the league. The starting pitching remains fantastic. The bullpen has improved.
Ultimately it comes down to if the bats wake up. And right now the operative word is some. They dont even need to be Top 5 right now, they just need some production up top. Its way too early to say that can’t happen.
The reason I'm discouraged
is that this in an old team, and an injury prone team. Thus far no one has gone on the 15-day DL, so you have to make hay while the sun shines. They’ve had their A lineup available for practically every game, and their starting pitching has been insane.
And they fucked it up. They just plain fucked it up. Once these guys start going on the DL and the pitching regresses to the mean the season’s over. They had their chance to really open up a cushion while they were healthy and got good pitching, and instead they’re under .500.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
Here is where as you know
We disagree. I understand what you mean when you say their pitching has been insane. But that is only in terms of preseason expectations. Statistically and from peripherals the only one above his head right now is Floyd.
Your concern about health is of course legit, no argument there but I dont know if its fair to say 1 15 day DL stint does them in. The offense still has a few unlikely things going on. The BABIP for the starting lineup is all below .300 except Dye. Unlikely to continue. You seem to think they will score runs. Fine. There is good reason right now to believe in the pitching. That combo will bring wins. Enough? Hmmm I still dont know but again I ask who in this division are you in love with?
regarding BABIP
i think we may need to keep in mind that the sox players are not really the sorts to have BABIPs above .300. the only ones who do for their career, IIRC, are thome and AJ (and the way AJ is these days, i wouldn’t expect above .300 again). dye is close. probably don’t have enough info to say whether Q should but he certainly has not in the past. is the team BABIP of .250 likely to continue? almost certainly not. but let’s not set the bar too high.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
Agree
My own expectations are certainly not .300 for a nunber of the players, but certainly higher than .220-.250
And your're basing that on -
‘07 numbers / 2nd half of ‘06 numbers – Hell, Ryan Sweeney, who I kept hearing has a long swing is hitting almost .270 with 14 RBIs. Why does he leave the org and now becomes an average hitter. Meanwhile Swish who batted .250 and .260 the last 2 years with Oak is now at .210 with his OBP dropping. There has to be more than just these guys need to work there way out of it. (They do – but obviously they are not getting the type of help they need to work their way out of it)
Lets get real – if this was a bus and the staff you have doesn’t produce, and the new guys brought on are now not producing, there is something fundamentally wrong going on. It may be coaching, managing, philosophy, I don’t know, but there is something wrong with this organization.
Talk what you want
The offense currently sucks – continue on if you wish, I’m done with the discussion
lol.
he totally missed the topic of the discussion.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
he seems to think
that players who hit .250 and .260 the last two years cannot bat .210 during a given period. notwithstanding, of course, that swisher did that (or worse) the last two years during june and july. oops. facts can be a nasty thing.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
Probably did -
Team just has me frustrated as hell – and I’ll be at 2 more games of frustration with Twins this week… so any discussion regarding the offense just pisses me off and I lose rational thought. Especially since I realize KW has boxed the org in a corner with the contracts
Ryan Sweeney?
He’s not having a particularly good season – he’s putting up Jerry Owens-type numbers.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 5, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Heh.
I thought that was an odd thing to say, that hitters leave the Sox organization and go on to more success. Most people think the opposite – that Sox prospects tend to fall flat on their face after leaving town.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 5, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Maybe good scouting by KW and co.?
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Or poor scouting.
The Sox don’t have good prospects, and the organization knows it, so they deal the minor-leaguers while they can.
Speaking of which, Gio Gonzalez and Fautino De Los Santos are both sort of struggling in the early going. Gonzalez has had control problems (16 walks in 27 innings) and Fautino has a 5.87 ERA in high-A.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 5, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah
i guess sweeney is still young. but it’s hard to see him becoming much of anything considering that power that everyone said would develop has never appeared and it’s certainly getting to the point, if not past that point, where it would appear. fourth outfielder. whoop de doo that he’s gone.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
See, this is the real killer
During those 17 games, here are the runs allowed:
2,1,1,6,2,5,0,9,6,6,5,1,3,3,4,2,5,4
That’s 3.61 Runs ALLOWED per game, not just ERA – which is ridiculous in the AL. You can’t pitch much better than that, and what do they have to show for it? 6-11, pathetic. And Ozzie rants at the media while Rome is burning.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
Making my point for me.
So even a modest offensive improvement and some reasonable regression in pitching equals good news long term. My problem with what you say is you seem to imply in some past posts this colossal failing with pitching to get more inline with preseason expectations.
Well, the point I'm trying to make dogg
is that they should’ve have gone at least 12-6 during this stretch (including winning the postponed game vs. BAL) getting this kind of pitching against weaker opponents…Instead they went 6-11.
So instead of being 14-15 and 1.5 games behind MINN, they should be be 20-10 and leading MINN by 4 games. And they’d be 6.5 games ahead of CLE and 7 games in front of DET. That would be pretty sweet, and that’s the golden opportunity that’s been missed.
We really wasted some excellent pitching. Could they continue pitching like this the rest of the year? Sure, I guess it’s possible – but it’s not probable.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
No argument with the disappointment
Their record should definitely be better and an opportunity was missed. Right now the Sox have never depended more on Herm.
Quinton
Got himself into a starting job long term in a hitters park. I’m sure he’s pretty happy with what he’s got himself into.
by Grinder in Training on May 5, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Nice summary, Cheat
The Sox team average is a joke. OBP slightly less of a joke. Slugging is middling only because of the HR’s. All that said, I still believe the #1 and #2 hitters (Swish and Cabrera) are the key. They must do a better job of getting on base.
C'mon, Smokey! This isn't 'Nam, it's bowling. There are rules!
Swish
was doing great for a while but his OBP has dropped from near .400 to .350.
OC is 9th in the AL among starting SS’s in OBP with .298.
Throw in also that Thome and Swish are tied for 3rd in MLB with 6 GIDP each… things gotta change in the top 3 of the order else we aren’t goin anywhere.
That’s not even mentionining the bottom 3 of our lineup (minus Quentin)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
This slump is my fault...
Before I went away for a week, I asked WU to keep an eye on things here. I forgot to say anything about the Sox however.
Anyway, all will be fine starting tonight. And if my return doesn’t turn them around, perhaps one of Cheat’s patented “vacation winning streaks” is in order.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
that's funny, I was blaming myself
I went to the game last Saturday. The Sox record when I’m in attendance over the last few years is something like 2-11. Then Saturday, then won on the BA walk-off single, and I thought my luck was changing. Unfortunately, it did change. The juju is a little bit different, but its still bad.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
How was your trip?
I tried to fill the obvious hole you left but was patently unsucksessful (snicker). You’d better stick around, young man.
I took the "under".
Trip was "ok", could've used more vaca though...
4 nights in Mexico was great, but got home Wed. night and turned around to Vegas for a conference 11 hours later. Too much travel in too short a time for someone my age. Hell, I don’t even remember Mexico now.
The good news is that yesterday I met the granddaughter that was born when I was gone. Holy crap! She’s beautiful! First one…
Btw, I see that you couldn’t even use “I hope Buehrle enjoys his run” in his last start. What a waste.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
Congrats
on the granddaughter….can she hit lefties?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
No, but we did talk baseball yesterday:
My daughter (the mother) and I agreed that the Sox have to find a future HOFer for the kid to grow up watching. My daughters had Frank from their 10 and 9 seasons (respectively) until his departure. Made us wonder how many/few kids get that opportunity?
Anyway, we have a few years to figure it out.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
Congrats! She was born during the historic 2008 season, will be an easy birthday to remember
That calls for a snort or two of Old Granddad no?
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
That's actually a great suggestion!
Switch from Makers Mark (when I drink bourbon) to Old Granddad!!!
Good one.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
Good hitters...
still need help from an experienced coach from time to time to work on things like mechanics. Mechanics can go awry from time to time and video tape can help fix it.
It’s also the coach’s responsibility to get the hitters scouting reports on pitchers.
I don’t believe the whole ‘they need to get their head outta their asses and start hitting’ philosophy. Some blame has to fall onto the coaches.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
Changing the coaches
isn’t going to do a d*mn thing with this team.
The team is mostly veteran hitters who are either slumping, have gotten old or just suck.
We need to face the facts that this team isn’t going anywhere but treading towards .500 ball.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I honestly don't care...
one way or the other about Greg Walker. They can fire Walker if they want, but that’s not going to make Jermaine Dye less gimpy, or turn Cabrera and Uribe into good hitters.
All in all, I’d say that this team has actually performed better than I thought they would. The starting pitching’s been great, the offense has been about what I expected, and the defense (particularly the outfield defense) has been better than expected.
I’m fairly pleased with how the season’s unfolding, but then again, I never expected this team to contend.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 5, 2008 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
it's funny, jer
that both you and i are “optimistic” about this team while many others are not. what have we really learned about this team’s chances since prior to the season? basically we have the records of the teams over the course of those games which is helpful. the sox haven’t experienced any major injuries (though we know now that richar will be out longer than expected, though that info may not mean much). the pitching has been surprisingly good. and, as you point out, swisher isn’t the butcher some feared he would be.
overall, i’d say this team will be somewhat better than what the collective predictions for it was. i’m not really understanding the consternation here. i guess that first couple weeks really raised peoples’ expectations.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
It definetly has gotten
Ozzie into a tizzie.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions
People's abilities to "look"
Past numbers for a longer term (within season) view. 5 game losing streaks (which are reasonable expected) generally sour folks.
I'm also pretty happy
The Sox have some young players that are performing well enough to give hope for the future: Danks and Quentin specifically. Swisher hasn’t hit well, but his defense has been decent. If he could stick in CF for another year or two that would be great. And it’s something I didn’t think likely. Floyd has done well too, but I’m still distrustful of his success.
Also, Crede and Contreras might be tradeable at the deadline.
I’d like for the Sox to stay in contention till September just for the drama, but that would be gravy.
People that think this team is just like 2007 are looking at W-L, but the results on the field are much better.
by hitlesswonder on May 5, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Plus
Ozzie hit Swish leadoff and hgave Q a chance over Owens. Good stuff.
by hitlesswonder on May 5, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Cabrera was a decent hitter before he got here
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
With The Recent Starting of Pablo
What’s the status on Richar? I read that he was to start baseball activity on May 1st. Any news on his rehab/progression?
I think Richar (if healthy)
would be an improvement over Uribe. He had a better year in his first year in the bigs than did Uribe.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
That should say
than did Uribe last year.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
while we're checking on Richar,
can someone find out when Pablo is expected to start baseball activity?
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
OC + Uribe = Fail
Uribe OPS = .512 (next to last in MLB 2B, ahead of only Cano)
OC OPS = .569 (third from last in MLB SS, ahead of only Bartlett and Tulowitzki)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
absolutely horrible company there
cano. tulowitzki. those guys suck.
a good tactic when trying to make a point is not to actively point out things that undermine your argument.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
I read it as sarcasm (for the Cassandras)
But maybe you’re right.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
No, they don't suck.
but they are off to horrible starts.
They all get F’s for the first month.
And yes, Bartlett does blow, and he’s there too.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
i'm confused about what the point is then
uribe sucks and players sometimes get off to horrible starts? okay.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
My point was that...
Uribe and OC have started epicly bad, and only three starting position players have started worse than them.
That’s all I was pointing out. Not long term potential, past performance, just April and beginning of May, 2008.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Uribe
was a given. OC is just slumping – wish we didn’t have to watch him slump at the 2-hole, but who else can you put in?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Swisher - Quentin - Thome
Not bad at all. Move Cabrera down to the 8th, just above Uribe :)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't like Thome in
the 3-hole right now either. Flip-flop Konerko and Thome? Move Crede up to 4th spot?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
cabrera should have been batting second only because of the lack of other options
at the start of the season. now that there is another option, he should go where he belongs.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
any idea on the weight of his extra PAs at #2 instead of #8
in the elias type-A/B/C FA calculation?
I see PAs listed first
2B/3B/SS: PA, AVG, OBP, HR, RBI, Fielding percentage, Total chances at designated position
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/10/stats-used-for-.html
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
Agreed
That would be worth a try.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
True.
I forgot that Quentin can’t handle the bat well. :-/
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on May 5, 2008 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
If we could somehow assure that Ozzie would just let him swing
I’d be totally down with Q in the 2-hole
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
All this handling the bat and 2-hole talk is getting kinda gay, can you guys tone it down a bit? ;)
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
THOME OR KONERKO MUST GO
there is no room for both of them now. In 05’ when we won we had Carl Everette as our DH. The first half he got more clutch rbi’s than Thome has had in his entire career as a white stocking. Getting rid of one of those guys gives our team the most flexibility. Even if Anderson starts over Owens… trading one of those guys is necessary for us to be able to play “Ozzie Ball”.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 12:15 PM CDT reply actions
How?
Konerko has no trade clause and I don’t see anyone coming to the table for Thomer.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
It won't happen.
Trading one of the aging sluggers (either of those two or Dye) would mean that Ken Williams would have to either eat salary or take little or nothing in return, and Ken Williams won’t do that with those guys.
And that’s setting aside the fact that Dye and Thome have no-trades, and Konerko is a 5-and-10 guy.
by The Jerry Royster Experience on May 5, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Konerko
has a no trade clause… he is also allowed to waive that no trade clause. Thome… would be harder to move but there are still teams in need of a dh say… the blue jays, d-rays, mariners, and rangers just to name a few.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Sox are stuck
with both of them until their contracts expire. No way either one will be traded. There are too many other DH’s out there making a lot less money. You can add Jermaine Dye to your list, but he won’t be traded either.
C'mon, Smokey! This isn't 'Nam, it's bowling. There are rules!
Lol
You are a crack head.
Granted in 05 Everett actually did perform much better in high leverage situations .322/.412/.483 than his normal line. Great. But more rbi than Thome’s career with the Sox. Hmmm
Thome 06 high lev .235/.385/.471 okay maybe there is a point to this…..
Nope.
Thome 07 high lev .338/.450./.588
Not to mention his stats pummel Everett in all other scenarios in 06 and 07.
Also the fact
that Thome believes in Dinosaurs and that we walked on the moon. What a crock!
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
i just looked at carl's '05 late & close numbers of b-b ref as well
87 plate appearances
12-77 (.156), 1 HR, 8 RBI
.253 OBP
.247 SLG
.500 OPS
Repeat after me: reading comprehension, even a little bit of thought before posting, and basic research are not signs of weakness.
by Toonderstrook on May 5, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
first half
stats… I know you guys look at my posts but do you actually read them?
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
well, if he had 8 late & close rbi the entire season, he couldn't have had any more than that in the first half.
Repeat after me: reading comprehension, even a little bit of thought before posting, and basic research are not signs of weakness.
by Toonderstrook on May 5, 2008 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
not entirely accurate
in 2005, MLB experimented with “negative RBIs.”
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
Man, was that ever an experiment gone awry.
It almost perturbed Masset theory in its infancy
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
yet another example of perception and fond memories overwhelming reality?
Repeat after me: reading comprehension, even a little bit of thought before posting, and basic research are not signs of weakness.
by Toonderstrook on May 5, 2008 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Tdogg do some research
I said he had more “clutch rbi’s” in a half season, than Thome has had his entire time here on the south side. I don’t care about stats either… I can see that in late situations Thomer fails to do anything productive.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
larry you are going to argue with this??
really??? Thome has been worthless. I was mad when we got rid of Frank for this guy and I am still mad to this day. How many game winning homers has he hit btw? I can remember 1 for sure… his 500th and maybe 1 in 06’?
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions
no, i'm not going to argue with this because it's a waste of time.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
It is not a waste of time
Carl’s stats may be lower than Thome.. I am in no way arguing that Carl is even close to the player Thome is, BUT Everette got more big hits in that first half than Thome has done in his whitesox career. The magnitued of those hits is even greater when you factor in we won the division and the world series. Thome has carried this team for short periods of time… Carl and Hermanson carried this team for the first half of 05’.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Uhm
Why are you arguing about this?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
who fucking cares about "big" or "clutch" hits.
runs count the same whether they are scored in the first, the fifth, or the fifteenth. if you think carl everett – who, by stats cited to you for the entirety of 2005, had 8 RBIs and a .500 OPS in close and late situations – had more “big” hits than thome, great.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
I am not talking about the entirety of 2005
“by stats cited to you for the entirety of 2005”. Jesus H. Larry! I said the first half!
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Right but if you look at the stat set as a whole
you see how terrible they really are. The best case scenario to support your argument that during the first half he was “clutch” would be if he had all of his whopping total of 8 RBI’s in the first half and none in the second half.
The reason for showing his whole season’s worth of clutch stats is to show how even more terrible (at least for the counting numbers) his 1st half total would be.
I’m done explaining the obvious, now…just felt it should be spelled out to you since you couldn’t otherwise make sense of a fairly obvious point
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
The point was
we won the world series with out the help of a true DH. Which brings me back to my original point that we need to get rid of Thome.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions
this belongs in some hall of fame!
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
Oh brother!
You drinking?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Brain
raped.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
For some reason I keep thinking of Billy Madison here...
“what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this blog is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”
Or something like that.
by hitlesswonder on May 5, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Differing definitions of the terms "big" and or "clutch"
“big hits, clutch hits” Big hits IMO = any time you really need a hit. A big hit could come in the first inning if it still has a positive impact on the final score. Clutch hits IMO may also happen at any climatic point in a game, from driving in RBI’S to put the game out of hand or get a base winning hit. How about the pressure the sox were under to score the first run every game? Every time they did, they knew they had a good chance of winning, therefore there was more pressure to deliver. These early runs became the most important runs for our team, thus eliminating any chance for the theory of “clutch statistics”, because the most important runs were not produced during “late inning situations”.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions
HUH?!
“How about the pressure the Sox were under to score the first run every game?”
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
logic beaten, raped, and killed in brazen daylight assault
may 5, 2008
associated press
chicago – logic was slain today in a brutal attack by Where Triples Go to Die while logic was minding its own business on the streets of South Side Sox. police officers said logic was “beyond recognition” when they arrived on the scene and died shortly thereafter.
while an autopsy will be completed later today by the cook county coroner to determine the precise cause of death, officers believe logic’s death was caused by a combination of repeated blunt trauma and sodomy.
witnesses were horrified by the scene, which some said lasted over two hours. BobbySouthSide said, “[Where Triples Go to Die] just kept going back at [logic]. Some brave posters tried to intervene but it was too little, too late. Logic never had a chance.”
witnesses said a dispute began between the assailant and South Side Sox community inhabitants over baseball. it quickly escalated into violence and logic was “trapped in the middle.”
long-time inhabitant winningugly, aged 94 years, said the assault was totally uncalled for. “never in my 94 years have i seen something like that. but that’s Where Triples Go to Die. nobody – and i mean nobody – attacked logic in broad daylight on a monday afternoon for no reason like him. nobody.”
Where Triples Go to Die is still at large. Posters are cautioned to not approach or respond to him as he is considered armed and dangerous. He is believed to be driving a red 1993 camaro and wearing chicago bears zubaz pants with a faded black poison t-shirt.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
by larry on May 5, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
Updated:
Other witnesses said they tried to warn Logic about the risk, but those warnings went unheeded. Also, according to sources, a record number of residents seemed to be responding to WTGTD, adding to Logic’s untimely demise.
A Police Spokesman reminded the general population of the need to ignore assaults of this nature:
“Trolling is a sad reality of internet life. Most trolls tend to be blatant, posting comments or diaries that are clearly intended to provoke an angry response. Other trollish messages are posted simply to disrupt the conversation in a diary. Directly replying to the content of a trollish message is usually a waste of time; trolls tend not to be interested in actual debate.”
He further added that if a response is irresistable, try posting a recipe.
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
HA!
That should be locked up in the HOF with brain damage causing post of WTGTD.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Also goes by the alias of "SouljaBoy"
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
lol
i knew u took gay jokes seriously… is that u before mullet night?
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 6, 2008 8:17 AM CDT up reply actions
WU is really 94?
"I got the shotgun. You got the briefcase. It's all in the game though, right? "
by onlysoxfaninboston on May 5, 2008 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
we flatter him
it’s like Profundo’s listed weight
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
it gets better.
Repeat after me: reading comprehension, even a little bit of thought before posting, and basic research are not signs of weakness.
by Toonderstrook on May 5, 2008 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, you took that to a whole new level!
I haven’t pooped my pants that hard since….last week! ;)
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Okay fess up
This is all just a joke right? Who writes your material. I am impressed. The theory of “clutch stats”? Pressure to score the 1st run? Stop I cant take it? My belly hurts….
THERE IS AN ARGUMENT
THAT THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS “CLUTCH”, BECAUSE IT CAN NOT BE DEFINED.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
APB to all SSS residents
THERE IS A SERIAL KILLER/RAPIST ON THE LOOSE. LOGIC HAS ALREADY BEEN KILLED. IT IS FEARED THAT GRAMMAR AND RHETORIC ARE BOTH TARGETS OF THIS KILLER.
KILLER WAS LAST SEEN IN A RED 1993 CAMARO IN MARKAM, ILLINOIS, WHERE HE DISCARDED HIS CLOTHES STAINED WITH THE BLOOD OF LOGIC AND PUT ON BLACK JEANS WITH TEARS IN BOTH KNEES AND A YELLOWED WIFEBEATER. HE IS CONSIDERED ARMED AND DANGEROUS. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO APPROACH OR ATTEMPT TO COMMUNICATE. CONTACT YOUR LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENT.
Jesus H. Larry! I said the first half!
by larry on May 5, 2008 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
LAST SEEN YELLING AT POLISH TRUCK DRIVER - SOME KIND OF DISPUTE INVOLVING BILLS OF LADING
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
LOGIC AND GRAMMER
WERE KILLED A LONG TIME AGO. LARRY MARIOTTI YOU ARE LATE TO BREAK THIS STORY.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Brain Damage
from today and the lasting effects of the damage to my motor skills thus has caused me to urinate my pants. I feel the slow torture is beginning to effect my soul. Save yourself.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
No I get the debate on whether clutch exist or not
Its just you made it sound like a science experiment. And high leverage situations at least are pretty clearly defined. Do me a favor DONT EVER stop posting. In particular in the middle of 5 game losing streaks. You put a smile on my face and laughter in the air.
I did not mean to get you guys all riled up.
I personally feel (not saying that you must feel the way I do) that Thome has never done much for this team in tight situations. I was trying to point out that someone as terrible as Everett was able to get it done in the first half of 05’ whether I am able to relay that message on to you guys, remains to be seen.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
NO!
The continued shots ringing out have cause permanent effects. Please stop, I beg you.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
By your measure Frank Thomas had 3 meaningful HRs in his White Sox career
http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/7pWz
And it took him 8 years to get his first one, and 13 to get his second. I say let’s be patient with Thome.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
You remember
When there were goofs who used to say yeah sure Frank hit a 2 run homer in the 1st but where was he in the clutch situations? This is just a stupid argument.
I really have no idea what you guys are fussing over...
My magic ignore button must be working!
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
Hey, how about that nutty Cedric Benson!
(Gotta change the subject – brain hurts. Logic fails. Must collapse into brainless chatter.)
I took the "under".
Sounds like a trade to the Vikings is in order
Booze, broads, and boats! He’ll be a star up there!
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
One problem though
He likes to bring his mother along, which I can’t imagine would go over well once the strippers/prosts come out
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
what is this???
SHIT ON WTGTD DAY? ALL CAP TIME FOOLS!
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
You have seriously
caused my brain to go into a coma today. Why did you do that on a Monday?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Why
in the hell would we want to play Ozzieball?
by Grinder in Training on May 5, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
does anyone know
i understand the buyout is 3 million on Thome, but I was wondering if he has a plate appearance clause that makes us automatically pick him up, flexibility at the dh spot would be huge for us…
also while i’m not throwing 08 under the bus, jose has done a ton for his trade value the past month, if he keeps this us he will be valuable to some of those big park nl west teams
by BestKosherPolish on May 5, 2008 12:48 PM CDT reply actions
yes, there is a PA clause
google “cots contracts” for all your baseball contract questions.
4/29/08: the ginger ninja strikes again
Out of Dye, Thome, Konerko
Thome is the one I’d want most keep. I know he’s old and can’t hit LHP, but he’s still the most valuable offensive player of the 3. If the Sox could renegotiate with him and come up with a reasonable year/salary contract I wouldn’t be upset. And Thome might be flexible if he wants to finish playing ball in a place where he’s comfortable.
Of course, if the Sox do that, they should really look at moving Dye, which may be impossible. That extension seems likely to sting.
by hitlesswonder on May 5, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Once Dye
changes positions to 1B or DH he might be the best long term pick. I’d think he has more left than Konerko and he’s younger than Thome.
by Grinder in Training on May 5, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe if we want to make our offense even worse than it currently is...
I bet Walk would love Jock’s uppercut homer pull swing.
wow
They’re paying him $5mm this year – Hah! Screw dat, see ya fool! Don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
*Indians DFA Jason "Sox Killer" Michaels
fixed.
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
So.. who do we DFA?
Pablo Ozuna seems like a good candidate to me.
by Grinder in Training on May 5, 2008 3:24 PM CDT reply actions
i'd say somewhat better.
But the point is, some clubs are more willing to admit mistakes, and try to correct them.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
I just
see this as moves by Cleveland and Detroit to try and put themselves in better postion to contend with us.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on May 5, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I see these moves as their versions of "White Flag"
Who knew they’d quit so early?
"Lipstick traces on cigarettes can get you in trouble or remind you of the wonders of the night before."
The Indians got so mad at Hafner that they DFA'd Jason Michaels
"The little things are always in my mind," he said. "I always like to move the guy over, I like to bunt."
oooh
thats a toss up… what about Toby?
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
we also need to DFA
Walker and move Thome to hitting coach. That would solve all of our problems.
by Where Triples Go to Die on May 5, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
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