White Sox's negotiations slow with Jordan Danks
Negotiations between the White Sox and John Danks' younger brother Jordan could last deep into the summer, but their father is hopeful an agreement can be reached before the Aug. 15 deadline.
"We won't know what's going to happen for a while," John B. Danks said Tuesday. "But Jordan is very excited to be drafted again by the White Sox.
over 3 years ago
The Cheat
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12th rounder Stephen Upchurch, a 3rd-4th round talent, says he’ll sign “if the money’s right“
AIM: SouthSideCheat
hopefully the sox make a worthwhile go of it
dude, that was totally not swish you saw on rush street last night. swish was at home playing xbox.
"if the money's right".....12th round........
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
you're missing a key part of the post: "a 3rd-4th round talent"
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
he doesn't care about the sox' young players, remember
certainly not enough to post his thoughts about them.
"The Cubs would've won that game. They're the bestest team ever." - SSH2005
maybe if it had read...
“12th rounder Stephen Upchurch, a Orland Hudson-type talent…”
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
A "3rd or 4th round talent" ....that's why he slipped to the 12th.
arguing with reality….I guees for rounds 5-11 organizations simply forgot about him…...
big difference between speculation and reality….just ask a Cub fan.
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
he slipped to the 12th round because of signability concerns
this is draft 101. if you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t comment on it.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
facts getting in the way again.
Upchurch was selected by the Chicago White Sox with their 12th-round pick — No. 360 overall — in the Major League Baseball first-year player draft Friday.If the Auburn signee decides to sign with the White Sox, he’ll likely head to Montana to start his professional career with Chicago’s rookie-league team. Upchurch said Friday that if the money’s right, he’s ready to go.
“If it’s what I’m looking for, I’ll def initely start my career now,” said Upchurch. “It’s always been my dream to play professional baseball. When I was 4 years old, I was watching the Braves on a local station and I thought, ‘That’s what I want to do in life.’ I’m very excited and I’m very blessed.”
Upchurch is also very talented. Standing nearly 6-foot-5, the right-hander led Faith to the AISA championship in 2008, going 13-0 with a 0.85 ERA and 102 strikeouts.
His fastball topped out at 93 mph this season and was clocked as high as 96 during his junior year. He also throws a change-up and slider.
He was named the AISA’s player of the year by the Alabama Sports Writers Association, which also tabbed him as a member of its Super 10 team — recognizing the players it deems the top 10 high school players in the state.
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
big difference between speculation and reality, eh.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
i dunno.
6’5” high school pitcher gassing up to 96 mph good enough to go play in the sec sounds like 12th round talent to me…
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
and we've also discovered oxygen on Mars.....
but let’s keep that a secret as well…..sshhhh, quiet, we’ll sneak up on him …..very very quiet….....sssshhhhhh ... now the 3rd and 4th rounders are called 12th rounders…....
and the first rounders will no longer be called 1st rounders….lets call em 3rd rounders….....and the 4th will be called 7th, and the is now 2nd….citing signability sources…
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
you're just messing around now, right?
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
And those that would be first shall be last...
you could look it up.
When she farts, a little rainbow comes out...
In all seriousness.....
I simply think sometimes there are these new things we make up to jusity statistics and reality. In all honesty, Toonderstrook, I turn the volume off on sporting events while watching TV (with the exception of Sox games) cause I’m sick and tired of hearing these concepts, stats, probablility, and signability concerns….
I watched a game a week or so ago that changed the probability of averages of him getting a hit from pitch to pitch in the count….... and OPS…...it all seems goofy. Whattyathink?
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
i don't have a clue what you're talking about, but please don't stop.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
btw, you're my favorite.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
if you're sick and tired of hearing this stuff, i have no idea why you are on this site.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
don't forget Greg Luzinski...or was in Monica Lewinski
I can’t remember.
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
ops...have you seen this? have you heard about this? and what's the deal with stats?
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Stick with the "I have no idea" Lare......that's a start.
Lare, you never got back to me on the CJ Retherford thing….....what….no love?
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
perfect example...
now that pedro alvarez was just drafted number two overall following his junior college season.
“Signability” isn’t a word that will be found in a dictionary, but it’s one of the most important words currently being used in Major League Baseball. While evaluating and getting acquainted with high-school prospects, professional scouts must ask an all-consuming question: How “signable” is the player? How much money will it take to convince the player to bypass college and become a professional?Huge signing bonuses are often required to change a player’s mind. Sometimes, teams simply don’t offer enough money, especially if a player has already signed with a school of high academic reputation such as Vanderbilt, Stanford or Rice. Pro scouts know when the battles lines are drawn. “
Vanderbilt signed four players last fall who this spring were ranked by Baseball America among the top 200 prospects in the nation for the annual Major League Baseball amateur draft, which was held earlier this month. Three of those players-Pedro Alvarez, Brett Jacobson and Diallo Fon-were drafted much lower than they might have been had Vanderbilt not been in the picture. The fourth, Josh Zeid, was not drafted at all despite being considered the top pitching prospect in the Northeast United States.
“I could have gone significantly higher,” said Jacobson, a pitcher who was named Arizona player of the year by the Arizona Republic. “Just because of signability, I dropped to the 11th round.”
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Professor Lare,
Can you explain this phrase signability concern you speak of?
If he’s a 3rd or 4th round talent….and slipped to 12th…...sheesh Lare…....Signability concern…......its not like he slipped to 5th round…...Lare, he slipped to 12th ! So, in essence, you can throw your jargon and stat/translation book on the same shelf as your “Prose for Beginners” manual.
Signability concerns….LOL. I think Bozo and Cookie had “signability” concerns….that’s what I’ll tell my employer, I have signability concerns….LOL
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
Cream of Chicken with Wild Rice Soup
INGREDIENTS
1 1/3 cups wild rice
1 (3 pound) whole chicken, cut into pieces
7 cups water
1 cup chopped celery
1 cup chopped onion
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1 cup fresh mushrooms, sliced
2 tablespoons chicken bouillon granules
3/4 teaspoon ground white pepper
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 cup margarine
3/4 cup all-purpose flour
4 cups milk
3/4 cup white wine
DIRECTIONS
Cook the wild rice according to package directions, but remove from heat about 15 minutes before it’s done. Drain the excess liquid, and set aside.
In a stock pot over high heat, combine the chicken and the water. Bring to a boil, and then reduce heat to low. Simmer for 40 minutes, or until chicken is cooked and tender. Remove chicken from the pot, and allow it to cool. Strain the broth from the pot, and reserve for later. When chicken is cool, remove the meat from the bones, cut into bite size pieces, and reserve. Discard the fat and the bones.
In the same stock pot over medium heat, saute the celery and onion in the oil for 5 minutes. Add the mushrooms, and cover. Cook for 5 to 10 minutes, stirring occasionally, until everything is tender. Return the broth to the stock pot, and add the partially cooked wild rice. Stir in the bouillon, white pepper and salt; simmer, uncovered, for 15 minutes.
Meanwhile, melt margarine in a medium saucepan over medium heat. Stir in the flour until smooth. Whisk in the milk, and continue cooking until mixture is bubbly and thick. Add some of the broth mixture to the milk mixture, continuing to stir, then stir all of the milk mixture into the broth mixture.
Mix in the reserved chicken meat and the white wine. Allow this to heat through for about 15 minutes.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
Now this is where I am confused
I have seen numerous recipies and am wondering how this has become a “burn”. This is where my 1970’s “so’s your Mom” clashes with the 21st century snarkiness. I’m looking for a message in the “creamed chicken and rice soup”. Is it Yiddish? Is it the “chicken”? Or is the recipe a metaphor?
This is like when I saw “YMMV” for first time. Had to look it up. Sorry for being dense, but help drag this AARP’er into the mew millenium, would ya?
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
it's not a "burn"
when a person is obviously trolling, it’s long been a response on message boards to reply with a recipe instead of arguing with them (i.e., feeding the troll). instead of feeding them your response, which is what they want, feed them a recipe.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
There's LARE, the professional blogger....
I KNEW IT ! Thanks professor !
I’ll write that down immediately! Gotta Pen?
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
Thanks. Makes sense.
Very Gandhi-like. I like it.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Mrs. Maggot's Cottage Pie
Slice a large onion and 2 carrots and sauté in bacon fat until the onions are limp. Add 1 pound of cubed beef, 1 tablespoon of flour, and salt and pepper to taste. Saute for several minutes, and then add 1/2 cup of beef stock and simmer for 20 to 30 minutes. Peel and quarter 1 pound of potatoes and boil until soft. Mash with 2 to 3 tablespoons of butter and enough milk to make a soft mash. Season with salt and pepper. Put the meat in a pie dish, cover with the mashed potatoes, and bake in a 375 degree oven for 30 minutes. Before serving, run the dish quickly under the broiler to brown the potato crust.
When she farts, a little rainbow comes out...
in all seriousness
1. what type of money do the white sox have to offer to sign him then?
3rd round money?
2. what type of money WILL the white sox most likely offer to sign him?
someone unfamiliar with the concept of nesting.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
Not you Scoper
I’m sure your question was quite serious, and one I don’t have the answer for, I’d imagine they’d offer 5th rd. money if he’s a 3rd / 4th rd. talent and go from there.
My reply didn’t follow your post, it followed ChiSox11.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 19, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
gotcha..no worries
someone here may know better than i the answer this question.
what are the chances of the sox actually signing this guy? isnt it true that the sox generally don’t like to pay top dollar for its draft picks or am i mistaken? do you really see them throwing 3rd or 4th round money at him?
i don't know much about this guy
other than what i’ve seen today, but it seems that if the sox believed he was 3rd or 4th round talent and he would sign for 3rd or 4th round money, the sox would have just drafted him there. so either they really didn’t have that great an idea of what he would do re: signing or he fancies himself a 1st, sandwich, or 2nd round pick in a couple of years.
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions
And we've wasted our time with articles and probabilities
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
exactly. who the fuck invented probabilities? they're bullshit. they can't steal second. they can't even score from first on a double. fuck em.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
working my way through this thread. this guy is gold. pure gold.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
are you not loving this guy? he's just completely awe-inspiring.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
TGTBT.
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
it's hard to suspend the disbelief, but if you can picture someone actually believing the stuff he's saying, it would be profoundly amusing.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Disbelief
Let’s really pick apart the following. (cough cough…)
Umm there’s this guy, he’s a 3rd or 4th round pick potential…....ummmmm but he’s in the 12th round…...uuummmm signability concerns…..ummmmm…..ummmmm nobody else has picked him….....uuuummmm but he’s still 3rd or 4th round potential…..uuummmmm sounds like a deal.
And there’s this guy, a 44th rounder…..but a 24th or 25th round potential….I hope he likes bus rides.
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
go on. i don't get it. what do you mean? what the hell are signability issues?
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
it's a conspiracy. signability was the second jfk gunman.
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Mark Buehrle was a 38th rounder who got top-6 round money
Brandon McCarthy was a 17th rounder who got Top -5 round money
Chris Young was a 16th rounder, a top 5 round talent, who fell largely because of a broken leg.
AIM: SouthSideCheat
Cheat, thank you for mediating this - good info
I’m still concerned that you will not be discussing the Sox much. (Though you’ve fouled your own pool with your post.)
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
and you kow all of this....
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
it's one thing
to quibble with projections and predictions, and something altogether different to take issue with historical fact.
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
'Tis one thing to quibble with projectios and predictions...
and something all together FORE SCORE AND SEVEN YEARS AGO !
I’ve entered your guys’ world for a couple of days now, cuz a buddy suggested I’d find it amusing and “hysterical”, as he put it. Fcking understatement of the year.
I’m out for good fellas….....Keep on going stat kings….numbers crunchers. We’ll both pull for the Sox in our own little ways….
I know you’ll miss me. Especially you LARE, but keep it real down at the ManHole and make sure your still checkin’ I.D.s…...weirdo. And Cheat, Holy Sht, I’m glad you’re here to set sht straight…..wow…...later stat geeks.
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
you will always be my favorite. i'll never forget you.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
(MM has slight tear forming in his right eye -
witnesses a nuclear explosion in the distance as chisox11 becomes fallout.)
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
If you're going to go out
Go out on a gay slur. That’s what they say in showbiz.
Never trust a big butt and a smile.
Sox Machine
I thought it was
“Always leave them wanting more”?
In this case, I have had enough.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
And Toonderstrook
You’re makin a mockery of that Steal Your Face…........
Now go and listen to Donna Jean Godchaux moan and groan about China Cat signability-Truckin-Unbroken Chain-Signability-Drums-Space-Richie Sexson.
We haven't won a World Series since 1908. And we brag about it.
looks like it's that time of the month
'08 all star game--vote early vote often....for pablo ozuna...he could be a late inning defensive replacement...
i like this comment from steven upchurch:
“When I was 4 years old, I was watching the Braves on a local station and I thought, ‘That’s what I want to do in life.”
i love when quotes like that are used in articles. he wanted to be a pro baseball player at 4! wow! i wanted to be a junkie at that age, and you know what? i accomplished my goal, but no one is writing about that. some people seem to think that nobody ever says they want to be a junkie when they grow up. bullshit. i know a guy who wanted to be a fire truck when he was 4. not a fireman, a fire truck. let’s hear more about the life decisions that children are making at age 4. there’s a lot of wisdom there.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
I wanted to be Dave Stewart.
I seem to have failed miserably in more ways than one.
Never trust a big butt and a smile.
Sox Machine
did you ever see that old SNL sketch
where eddie murphy thinks he’s elvis ;-)
"I got the shotgun. You got the briefcase. It's all in the game though, right? "
by onlysoxfaninboston on Jun 19, 2008 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I assume you are white
and thus subjected to the obvious shortcomings associated with our genetic material.
I’m sorry. Being part Italian, I – well, you know.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
You are a lovable lunatic, moi frer
My daughter is 5 and she wants to be a princess. I assume since this is American she can accomplish her dream.
Don’t tell me she doesn’t know WTF. Don’t even.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
don't you love the way the media portrays this crap. another fateful tale.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
My daughter's 4, and she wants to be leopard
I pretty sure that’s what she said, and not leper….
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
Jax Jaguar?
What a brute she must be.
I now have a soft spot for you, Nord. I’ll bet you are learning all sorts of things with a daughter. For example, my wife’s out of town since last night, so I had to put a ‘scrunchie” in my daughter’s hair for camp this AM. I am firmly convinced women are much more adaptable than men, as they can do the hair twirl thing without thinking, and “poof”, there’s a ponytail. (Also, clasping a bra behind one’s back without looking is a marvelous feat in and of itself – just more evidence.)
By the way, my daughter said I did the ponytail better than her Grandma. So my day is made.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of ponytails...
Here’s the proper technique for members of the Tribe:
http://www.tznius.com/cgi-bin/ponytail.pl
When she farts, a little rainbow comes out...
I dig your Metrosexualness, Chi
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
has billo seen this?
:p
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
lol, WU the Scrunchie Master
masking tape works well too. Now THATS adaptable.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
1001 Uses For Scrunchies:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/bythehook/uses.html
When she farts, a little rainbow comes out...
maybe we shouldn't sign adam dunn
http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20080619_000814_12348
First a fan calls up and asks Ricciardi whether the Jays have interest in Dunn. Ricciardi replies that he’s not interested in Dunn. Then he says:
“Maybe we have more information and know the player a little more than the average fan.”
Interesting. Another fan calls up and says he’s surprised Ricciardi would be so quick to dismiss a power bat like Dunn. Ricciardi really goes off on Dunn this time:
“He’s a lifetime .230-.240 hitter that strikes out a ton and hits home runs.
Did you know the guy doesn’t really like baseball that much? Did you know the guy doesn’t have a passion to play the game that much? I don’t think you’d be very happy if we brought Adam Dunn here…We’ve done our homework on guys like Adam Dunn and there’s a reason why we don’t want Adam Dunn.”
of course, it is the jays.
"The Cubs would've won that game. They're the bestest team ever." - SSH2005
in this PC world we live in today
its interesting that Ricciardi publicly dismissed Dunn’s passion for the game.
the reds and blue jays have a long-standing rivalry.
"The Cubs would've won that game. They're the bestest team ever." - SSH2005
now see, i would have guessed it would be the blue jays and the cardinals.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
reds, redbirds. po-ta-TOE, po-ta-TOW.
Half Dome is my bitch. Shasta is next.
by Toonderstrook on Jun 19, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
more like sweet potato-yam, but yeah, i know.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Indians, too? Red-skins?
(Oops. Native Americans are now honked off.)
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
you know, redlegs, one of the nicknames of the cincinnati franchise, can refer to birds, too
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
that is a weird quote
it helps to like your job, but if you’re really good at it, I don’t think it matters.
Besides, its not like he said he didn’t like hockey. Then the Jays fans would totally understand why he’s not pursuing Dunn.
Mosi Tatupu! Mosi Tatupu!
adam dunn is like a travis hafner or (for JRE) paul konerko
primary skills are hit ball hard and walk. skills that often don’t hold up well with age. that’s a good reason by itself to not be interested in him. but, if you also believe he’s the type of guy who doesn’t like his job, you may also have a concern that he won’t work at staying good at his job and, thus, those skills will evaporate even more quickly.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
Will he work out (like a Thomer, who's in phenomenal shape)
as he ages, or will he be like Mo Vaughn? Maybe that’s the passion Ricciardi is describing.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
for these guys, it pretty much all depends upon whether they keep their bat speed.
although there are other factors of course, namely injury. that’s something which is pretty hard to project. great players, which thome is, always end up being the exception to the rules.
two losses, six runs scored = no cubdate from SSH2005
HOF, baby
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
He then added
“You know who else doesn’t really like baseball that much? Osama bin Laden, that’s who.”
by The Actual El Guapo on Jun 19, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Pregame Recap:
1. Orlando Hudson’s brother, Jordan Danks, who was drafted in each of the 3rd, 12th and 15th rounds by the Sox (despite having 2nd, 11th and 21st round talent), is expressing doubts about whether he will sign because he really wants to be a fire truck (or possibly a scrunchy) and therefore lacks passion for baseball.
2. Statistics and probabilities are bad and evil like stalkers, but pies and cream-based soups are good and yummy and have swagger.
3. J.P. Riccardi lacks sarcasm and says mean things about Adam Dunn and Mo Vaughn because does not understand the concept of the “reply”, but has passion for baseball because he has a ponytail.
4. The Sox have created an imaginary 30 man roster just so they could ban Jerry Owens from it.
Btw, this “recap” thing will likely not be a running theme (waits for applause to die down), but some of the stuff from this post was just too tempting to pass up …
by The Actual El Guapo on Jun 19, 2008 12:21 PM CDT reply actions
you pretty well summed up the main points that i think we all could agree on.
They're gonna give daddy the Rain Man suite, you dig that?
by MarketMaker on Jun 19, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I am disappointed
that you aren’t going to post a daily summary. We’ll have the space, whatwith Cheat not discussing the Sox any more for awhile. Good stuff, AEG.
CWS: Slashing negative expectations since May, 2008.
by winningugly on Jun 19, 2008 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Grazie. Grazie Molto.
Often tough to fit in w. the whole work thing and all, but will try.
by The Actual El Guapo on Jun 19, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
12th round pick Steven Upchurch video
2:44, from http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/draft/y2008/drafttracker.jsp?...
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

















