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BP: 2008 Draft Coverage Roundtable

Kevin Goldstein (11:54:35 AM PT): 7. Reds, Yonder Alonso, 1b, Miami This is your first big surprise and things are messy. Right now the White Sox are dancing on tables in the draft room because they get their guy in the other Beckham. I'm shocked here. To answer Joe's question, the Reds are simply adding what they believe is the most valuable asset to the organization.
Bryan Smith (11:55:19 AM PT): The top Cape prospect finds a home in the top ten, which proves to you college players that it pays to hit with wood when you can. Yonder Alonso is such a talented hitter, though, I think he could hit with a tennis racquet. Alonso has the best approach for any player in this draft, and it's really not close.
Kevin Goldstein (11:55:46 AM PT): KG: Two college 1B in history drafted 7th overall: Matt LaPorta and Frank Thomas -- NICE LIST.
Will Carroll (11:57:25 AM PT): Hey, look, I can apparently post here. Lots of interesting rumors flying later in the draft but right now the most interesting to me is all the talk around Scheppers.
Kevin Goldstein (11:57:32 AM PT): I like Alonso a lot, but no way, no way at ALL he should go over Smoak. I don't get that at all. Somebody is going to get a steal with Smoak. By the way, Steve Phillips is TOTALLY right here, sign out of high school kids. Way better for your career.
Kevin Goldstein (11:58:15 AM PT): Will, The Scheppers thing is weird -- could go as high as to Seattle at 20, could be out of the first three rounds.
Joe Sheehan (11:59:04 AM PT): I get that, but I just can't see where the difference in talent between Alonso and Beckham, or even Alonso and Crow, is worth jamming yourself up at the left end of the defensive spectrum. Alonso is supposed to be a quick-to-the-majors guy, too. I almost always make the "best player" argument at this point in the draft. When it comes to taking pure hitters, though, I think you need to bow to the reality of positional value. Getting Gordon Beckham at #8 is a really nice pick for the White Sox.
Kevin Goldstein (11:59:55 AM PT): 8. White Sox select Gordon Beckham, SS, Georgia. Very good pick for them, and they are THRILLED that he's still on the board. He could move very quickly through the system. Did somebody just compare him to Jeter? really? Comp I still like is Khalil Greene's bat with Jed Lowrie's glove.
Bryan Smith (12:01:17 PM PT): Beckham hit in the double-digits in home runs as a freshman when he wasn't expected to, and he never looked back. However, he wasn't an elite guy until the Cape Cod last summer, and not a top ten guy until his amazing spring. I was given a Brandon Inge comp last summer that inspired my ranking back then, but now I think Inge represents the low end -- a move to third base, a low OBP, too many strikeouts. There's a good chance that he doesn't fall into some of those traps, and there's a chance he falls in none. Kevin's comp implies the same issues, but Greene's power is where Beckham's high ranking stems from.
Kevin Goldstein (12:01:51 PM PT): College SS taken #8 overall: Tim Costo, Bobby Meacham, Jim DeNeff Joe. I agree, I would totally take Beckham over Alonso, every time.

over 3 years ago Thecheatsmoking_tiny The Cheat 20 comments 0 recs  | 

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YES!!!!!!!!! WE GOT TIM COSTO!!!!!!!!!!

representing the MP and all the mobsters.

by larry on Jun 5, 2008 3:04 PM CDT reply actions  

I wouldn't...

Inge is garbage and the Sox need to hit gold when they finally get a top 10 pick for once. The Sox don’t have any room for misses (i.e. guys who turn out like Inge).

by SSH2005 on Jun 5, 2008 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

you are out of your mind.

or else you don’t read posts. either way.

by larry on Jun 5, 2008 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm serious...

If the very worst we can expect Beckham to be is Inge, and he ends up being that bad, well that just isn’t good enough. This guy needs to be a sure-fire player.

by SSH2005 on Jun 6, 2008 3:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Smoak.

Comps are Chipper Jones and Mark Teixeira… Come on!

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jun 5, 2008 10:01 PM CDT reply actions  

this just keeps getting better and better

now smoak is comparable to a guy drafted 1-1 who will be going to the HOF. by next week, i fully expect his comp to be lou gehrig. come on! how could the sox have ever passed on the next lou gehrig?

by larry on Jun 5, 2008 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not just the Sox, but a lot of teams

How far he dropped makes me wonder if there are makeup questions.

by vince_ on Jun 5, 2008 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

1/3 of the time sounds good
College first basemen selected in the first round have gone on to have Hall of Fame-caliber careers approximately one-third of the time.
BP

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Jun 5, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

This makes Larry seem wrong in his previous comment...

33% chance for a Hall of Famer sounds like pretty good odds.

by SSH2005 on Jun 6, 2008 3:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

HOF "caliber" 33% success rate is different than

your parameter of “sure-fire”.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Jun 6, 2008 8:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

uh huh

guess what the floor of that other 2/3 was? i’m thinking mr. high expectations isn’t going to be satisfied with marc newfield or david miller.

this is what happens when people cite a “fact” without actually considering what it means. when i first linked to the article or something similar to it, i can’t remember if i cited to rany in particular, i made the point that there was a reason 1Bs aren’t drafted very often in the first round (hmmm, does the phrase “selection bias” come to mind?), especially early. there are some serious sample size issues with the above (part of the reason it’s rany’s rule #12, not top five or something), considering there are drafts where a 1B, let alone a college 1B, isn’t even drafted in the first round. some people may not realize this considering, you know, this year is the first time they’ve actually paid attention and there were far more worthy 1Bs than is usual. 1Bs who are drafted this early pretty much have a bat and nothing else. dangerous pick. high upside for sure but big downside, too. and if SSH doesn’t like brandon inge as the floor, he might want to consider what the floor for a guy like smoak is. here’s a hint: smoak ain’t a sure-fire player.

by larry on Jun 6, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

not to mention

that citing a single rule also ignores all the other ones. like how college hitters in general are best. and what did the sox draft?

by larry on Jun 6, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

original article (note it's pre-2006 draft)

Between 1984 and 1991, nine college first basemen were drafted in the first round. Two of them rank as the biggest busts in this era, Dave McCarty and Joe Vitiello. Scott Stahoviak was the Doug Mientkiewicz of his day, a great defensive first baseman (he played 41 games at third base in the majors, with an average fielding rating according to our DTs) who could get on base but had no pop, and was finished at age 28.

The other six players, in increasing order of draft value: Tino Martinez, Mo Vaughn, Mark McGwire, Rafael Palmeiro, Will Clark, and Frank Thomas.

It’s a very small sample size, but if you were drafting a first baseman out of college in the first round, you had a 2-in-3 chance of drafting a perennial All-Star, and a 4-in-9 chance of drafting a Hall of Famer or near-HoFer. Throw in John Olerud, who was a third-round pick because no one thought he was signable, and your odds of getting a star/superstar player out of the first round was 50-50.

The returns on first basemen dropped in the 90s, but they still ranked as one of the most underpriced commodities in the draft. Only 15 college first basemen were selected in the top 100 picks from 1992 to 1999, but they included Todd Helton, Lance Berkman, Sean Casey, and Carlos Pena. Helton and Berkman were both first-round picks, along with Pena and three washouts (Peoples, Munson-who was really more of a catcher in college-and Jeff Liefer). Taken as a whole there were 15 college first-rounders from 1984 to 1999, 16 if you count Olerud. If you ignore the voting implications of steroid or alleged steroid use, five of those 16 are likely Hall of Famers, three more (Vaughn, Olerud, Clark) had a case for being the best first baseman in the game at some point in time, and three more (Martinez, Casey, Pena) were average or above-average first basemen in their prime.

That’s a hell of a return.

Because the sample size was so small-only 35 first basemen in the whole study-I decided to take a look at the first basemen drafted in the last five years to see whether the trend shows signs of holding up or not. Here are the first basemen taken in the top 100 picks between 2000 and 2005:

2000: None
2001: None (well, unless you count John VanBenschoten, Pittsburgh, #8)
2002: Larry Broadway, Montreal, #77; David Jensen, Kansas City, #78
2003: Michael Aubrey, Cleveland, #11; Vince Sinisi, Texas, #46
2004: Mike Ferris, St. Louis, #60; Adam Lind, Toronto, #82
2005: Stephen Head, Cleveland, #62

Gee, that wasn’t very useful. In the last six years, only seven college first basemen have gone in the top 100 picks, and only one-Michael Aubrey-went in the first round. Aubrey’s career got off on the right track-he was our #17 prospect a year ago-but he threw out his back last season, which is among the worst chronic injuries you can have if you’re a first baseman.

and here is what he said about drafting college SS:

Nothing really pithy to say here; college shortstops are a good bet overall, but pretty much in the middle of the pack as far as college hitters go. The nice thing about this position is that you have a lot of positional leeway if your draftee can’t handle shortstop as a pro. While a few draft picks have the leather to carry a sub-optimal bat (Walt Weiss, Adam Everett), far more college shortstops have major league bats but are forced to move down the defensive spectrum pretty quickly. Some still have the glove to shine at another key position, like second base (Brian Roberts, Alex Cora) or third base (Matt Williams). Others make you wonder how they ever played shortstop in the first place (Cory Snyder, Michael Tucker). If you draft the guy who can do both, as with Barry Larkin or an early-career Nomar Garciaparra, you’ve hit the jackpot.

by larry on Jun 6, 2008 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

so

if you think the sox should have gone for a home run pick, at least understand what you’re arguing. like perhaps noting that a large bulk of the “rule” is tied up in guys drafted pre-1991. and, duh, since this article was written you can bet people aren’t exactly underpricing 1Bs anymore.

for me, it was a flip a coin move. beckham was probably the surer pick (and i don’t mean that in the lance broadway way but in the “brandon inge/average-ish baseball player is his floor” way) and will play a premium position. positional scarcity should be a consideration, albeit probably not a major one. one can always find a guy who will hit and stick him at DH or 1B. as sox fans are well aware considering our experience since, what, the brief jose valentin foray, that isn’t the case for SS.

and here’s the link to one part of rany’s series; you can get to the other parts through this link.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=4864

by larry on Jun 6, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good posts, sir

And as evidenced by the crickets chirping (zero posts) you have detonated a nuclear bomb in a certain poster’s cranium. Good info.

I took the "under".

by winningugly on Jun 6, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

i think he just hasn't been around yet

his general point is not a bad one. the specifics, however…. of course, that’s where the devil is.

by larry on Jun 6, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

shoeless!

where have you been boy?

ps. yeah, they disappointed us

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Jun 5, 2008 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

smoak-beckam
6. Justin Smoak (taken No. 11), 1B, Rangers: The switch-hitter has drawn the standard comparisons to both Mark Teixeira and Chipper Jones, and could get to the big leagues a bit quicker than Alonso, given his team situation. His smooth swing generates more power than Alonso’s, but he may not hit for as much average.
Potential: Power option at first base ETA: 2010
9.Gordon Beckham (taken No. 8), SS, White Sox: Beckham may switch to second base, as the White Sox will eventually move Alexei Ramirez over to shortstop. I don’t think they will be shy about promoting him quickly. He consistently gets good wood on the ball with his line-drive swing, and his strong wrists give him surprising power for his size.
Potential: Michael Young-type offensive player ETA: 2010

Jason Grey is a graduate of the MLB Scouting Bureau’s Scout Development Program and has won two Tout Wars titles, one LABR title and numerous other national “experts” competitions.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?id=3430787

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Jun 7, 2008 7:20 PM CDT reply actions  

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