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Around SBN: Ellenberger vs. Sanchez Heats Up, Hughes Talks Retirement

The Official SSS Top Ten White Sox Prospects

The White Sox did a pretty good job this year in terms of graduating homegrown talent to the big league level.  Gordon Beckham, Chris Getz and Clayton Richard all played important roles.  Per usual, the system also permitted Kenny Williams to acquire major league talent, as Aaron Poreda, Dexter Carter, RIchard, and Brandon Allen were traded away.  Any system would be hurt by the "loss" of those six players; however, for a White Sox system that was only beginning to strengthen itself, both in terms of quality and depth, this has put the White Sox back in the position of having one of the worst farms in baseball.  While the top five will probably be essentially a consensus amongst listmakers, after that, the depth drops off precipitously.  It was a real struggle to complete the list.  You could include any of about fifteen players in the next five and make a solid argument for all of them.  The upper levels are full of fringe types and the lower levels, while having some interesting players, isn't all that inspiring to me at this point.

It is good for the club that they have a pretty well set starting five for next season because, outside of Daniel Hudson, there is an alarming lack of starting pitching prospects.  Like every organization, there are a number of arms that could be relievers, some, like Jhonny Nunez, ready for opening day in 2010.  Where the White Sox have improved is position player talent up the middle.  Tyler Flowers looks like a legit catcher to me.  And Jordan Danks and Jared Mitchell both look like they'll be able to handle centerfield defensively.

List after the jump.

Star-divide

1. Daniel Hudson: 2009 MiLB line: 147.1IP, 105 H, 34 BB, 166 K at Kannapolis, Winston-Salem, Birmingham and Charlotte.  MLB: 18.2 IP, 16 H, 9 BB, 14 K. The Cheat covered him extensively here so I won't give yet another explication of his repertoire here.  Suffice to say, his rise through the system last season was meteoric and well-deserved.  Like any young pitcher, he still has things to work on but the talent is there.  His ceiling is probably a #2 starter, depending upon how his offerings, particularly his slider, develop.  I love the movement he generates on his pitches.  ETA: Early 2010.  The White Sox may want to play the service time game and start him in Charlotte.  Barring injury or trade, there isn't a spot in the starting rotation for him.  He could be a valuable arm out of the bullpen right away.

2. Tyler Flowers: 2009 MiLB line: .297/.423/.516 at Birmingham and Charlotte.  Going into the season, his major question mark was whether he would stick at catcher, both because of his (in)abilities and injury history.  He answered that question affirmatively by vastly improving his defense and staying healthy.  And, oh yeah, he continued to hit the ball very well.  While his strikeout rate is high (30%), he draws plenty of walks and hits for power.  Don't expect his batting average to remain high, though, particularly since his BABIP was inflated.  His ceiling is probably an average defensive catcher with an above average bat; in other words, a very valuable commodity.  ETA: Mid-2010.  With the White Sox continuing to implement their new policy of pushing players more quickly through the minors, he may be starting next season on the South Side.  Though I think it would be a mistake to limit his repetitions at catcher by having him fill-in for A.J. Pierzynski once a week, it wouldn't surprise me if he found himself doing that along with playing some first and DH.  On the other hand, Ozzie took a shot at Flowers' inability to "play small ball" and high K rate so shielding Flowers from such insanity for as long as possible would be prudent.

3. Jordan Danks:  2009 MiLB line: .266/.359/.405 at Winston-Salem and Birmingham. It was a tale of two halves for the left-handed hitting Danks.  He tore up the Carolina League before a promotion to Birmingham where he continued to hit very well.  Then he was sidelined by a wrist injury, followed by a finger injury and saw his offensive numbers diminish significantly.  The question remains which is the true Danks.  Was the slugging he initially showed a fluke or did injuries simply impede the awakening of his long projected power?  The answer to that will dictate his future because, without some pop, that 26% K rate looks a whole lot scarier.  ETA: 2011.  Talked up as a possible September call-up in the summer, the poor second half took the sheen off his rapidly rising star.  A return to Birmingham for a couple months and then a promotion to Charlotte should be his path next year, though he might receive the aggressive treatment and start in AAA.

4. Jared Mitchell: 2009 MiLB line: .296/.417/.435 at Kannapolis.  His performance was exactly as expected: lots of walks, lots of strikeouts and lots of defense.  Quite toolsy but also quite raw, it will be very interesting to watch his development over the coming seasons.  Guys like Mitchell tend to either succeed spectacularly or fail spectacularly.  The ceiling of a plus defensive CF with good power, plus contact and plus on base skills is certainly tantalizing.  ETA: 2012.  Will probably start at Winston-Salem and then move to Birmingham when Danks is promoted.

5. Dayan Viciedo: 2009 MiLB line: .280/.317/.391at Birmingham.  I can sugarcoat ii as much as I like but there's no denying that Viciedo was not very good this year.   Yes, at 20 he was young for the league.  And, yes, he was acclimating to a new culture.  But, no, his beisbol wasn't very good.  First, his defense is terrible at third so he's going to need to find a new position.  Second, while scouts will still tell you that he has quick hands and power potential, his pitch recognition is poor.  Finally, questions about his fitness still linger.  All that said, he gets a mulligan from me for last season, particularly since he showed some signs of life in the second half.  But he's going to need to show improvement soon - starting in the Arizona Fall League next week - in order to justify his price tag.  ETA: 2011.  Back to Birmingham and then on to Charlotte.

6. Brent Morel: 2009 MiLB line: .281/.335/.453 at Winston-Salem.  I'm a big fan of Morel.  He doesn't strike out a lot, he's got gap power, his defense is fantastic, he's got good speed (25 for 34 in SBs) and his makeup is excellent.  If you can get past the fact that his bat will be less than average for third base, you can see the makings of an average to solid player.  The Joe Randa comparison still rings true to me.  ETA: 2011.  Will start in Birmingham and may spend the whole season there.

7. C.J. Retherford: 2009 MiLB line: .297/.340/.473 at Birmingham.  The guy just puts up numbers.  He was a doubles machine this year, racking up 46 in 128 games.  There's nothing overwhelming in his tool box but average or so at a lot of things can get you to the majors and that appears to be the case with Retherford.  Most scouts don't think he'll be more than a utility player - he played mostly 2B this year but has experience at multiple positions - but I could see him slotting in as a somewhat below average starter with the right team.  ETA: Late 2010.  Will start in Charlotte and could find himself as the first infield call-up when Chris Getz inevitably injures himself.

8. David Holmberg: 2009 MiLB line: 40 IP, 40 H, 18 BB, 37 K for Bristol.  He's got good velocity for a lefty, hitting the low 90s, and a plus curve.  He's a scouts' favorite with a clean delivery and makeup to boot.  Development of a changeup is essential.  Fresh out of high school, he's a long way away but his potential makes him an interesting prospect. ETA: 2013.  Extended spring training and then a return to Rookie ball before moving up to Kannapolis.

9. Christian Marrero: 2009 MiLB line: .308/.348/.501 at Winston-Salem and Birmingham.  The 23 year old lefty had a a very good season offensively and deservedly has begun to receive some attention as a prospect.  He's got some issues to overcome, however, starting with his defense.  He's essentially split time between RF and 1B in his career but, despite a plus arm, he probably isn't good enough to stick in the outfield.  That means his bat is going to need to be good enough to merit consideration at 1B.  The decline in walks from 11% at Kannapolis last year to about 6% this year suggests he may not quite have the bat.  ETA: 2011.  A return to Birmingham for a couple months and then a promotion to Charlotte.

10. Clevelan Santeliz: 2009 MiLB line: 56.1 IP, 43 H, 35 BB, 52 K at Birmingham. Santeliz improved his control markedly as the season wore on.  In the first half, he walked 27 in 35 innings. In the second half, just 8 in 21.1.  If that improvement is real, the 23 year old righty could find himself and his mid-90s fastball and plus slider in the bullpen role sooner rather than later.  ETA: Mid-2010.  Will be in Charlotte and probably will be the first choice for a reliever call-up.

Comment 210 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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What no Jeff Marquez?

So you see a move to SS for Beckham in 2011 to make way for Brent Morel or Morel is dealt and playing for another team in 2011

read better.

"give the guy more than six days to get up to speed."

by larry on Sep 6, 2009 12:10 PM CDT

by Scotty Ballgame on Oct 9, 2009 6:42 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

possibly

but let’s see if morel actually develops.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

the top 5 stimulate me

the bottom 5, bleech.

so who are we going to get for hudson?

twins let their guys ferment in the minors forever. maybe that would be a better idea(?)

by Hatchetm on Oct 9, 2009 6:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Sure, if they have the talent on both the prospect

and coaching end. It will take a long time to build that from where we are now, and it seems not to be KW’s MO to do that. Win now, baby. And with our starting staff we should be in a good position to do so if they are supported properly.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

It would be nice to have a few Nunez types

down there that we could look at to fill a spot in the bullpen next year…larry’s recap just emphasizes the lack of depth of our pitching in the farm system.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Oct 9, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

C.J. Retherford

Isn’t he one of Hawk’s love children?

Green and Gold / Black, and White

by OznCoop on Oct 9, 2009 8:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Danks in CF - Isn't that position filled for the next 4 or 5 years...

John, sign the contract or we trade your brother

"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"

by Brush Back on Oct 9, 2009 8:47 AM CDT reply actions  

It is obvious

You have your future platoon the $60 million man and John’s lil bro

read better.

"give the guy more than six days to get up to speed."

by larry on Sep 6, 2009 12:10 PM CDT

by Scotty Ballgame on Oct 9, 2009 9:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Rios to RF.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

He'd better come back,

or we’re eating a lot of salary. He won’t give us much more in CF than in RF if he doesn’t produce.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

he will give more in CF because he gets more balls in CF than in RF

otherwise, the values are exactly the same. position adjustments ftw.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

i bet that's not true.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

alright lets put it this way

ivan calderon is a 3 star LF or 1 star CF
bobby dernier is a 4 star LF or 4 star RF

they both make $1MM, both are worth 2 WAR. where do you play them?

by Hatchetm on Oct 9, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

dammit

dernier is 4 star in LF or CF

by Hatchetm on Oct 9, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

these are last year's stats

played on different teams you know.

by Hatchetm on Oct 9, 2009 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

i'm not really sure what you're saying

but the best fielder goes in center.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 10, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

not sure what i'm sayin but i'm thinkin

we can’t afford to get somebody (else) that can hit and play CF
we can afford to get somebody that can hit and play LF
we currently have the worst offensive lineup in the AL

therefore, rios plays CF.

by Hatchetm on Oct 10, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was offering an option,

not a suggestion.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

People keep saying this

I thought Dave Cameron at Fangraphs debunked this earlier in the year. If you have Rios in RF, the value to the ball-club should still be the same — it’s just that instead of an average/slightly-above-average defensive CFer with an average (positionally speaking) bat, you have a great defensive RF with a below average bat. But the value should, theoretically, be the same.

I think the reason you’d like to keep Rios in CF is because it’s easier to find (on the market) a plus bat, average glove in RF than it is to find a league average (and in his prime, to boot) CFer (or potentially much better, so long as his bat bounces back).

by CWSKeith on Oct 9, 2009 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is the point of position adjustments

also, this isn’t really theoretical either. it’s been empirically investigated and ratified.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ratified?

When did this become Law, Keith?

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

i can't get away with anything, mang.

at least i got pronoun consistency this time around.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

still high on Miguel Gonzalez?

I assume he just missed the list. Is it too early to project him?

How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love 2010

by Nordhagen on Oct 9, 2009 9:55 AM CDT reply actions  

Larry

Or anyone else who considers themselves an expert on the subject. In the last year or so our younger players seem to have performed a bit better at the major league level than in previous years (Getz, Hudson, Torres Vs. Fields, Anderson, Owens, etc..).

Do you think that has something to do with retooling the minor league system and bringing in Buddy Bell a couple years ago, or just better talent coming through.
I’m not including Beckham just b/c he’s clearly a cut above anything we’ve had lately.

by Grinder in Training on Oct 9, 2009 10:13 AM CDT reply actions  

i'd give bell some credit.

better drafting, too, for the more recent crop.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

bwah

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 10:30 AM CDT reply actions  

Did you get a couple Pods flashbacks after that one?

I did.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Oct 9, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Haven't seen the actual play yet (other than a frame-by-frame images).... but yeah...pretty epic.

I’m looking for the vid, if anyone knows where it might be hiding online….

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

look at that neck

definetly a roider

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

would've thought Ely and Link could be 9 and 10

but you know a lot more about this than me

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 10:36 AM CDT reply actions  

if you can't break 90, he's not a major leaguer.

Ely’s out.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Colin... you have more baseball saavy than that...

Excluding knuckleballers like Wakefield whose fastball tops out at 82, people like Jamie Moyer and other finess pitchers have fine careers. Not saying that Ely is capable of being MLB worthy, but you put your foot in your mouth there…

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

no i didn't

name a RH starter who can’t break 90 if we’re excluding knuckleballers. fastball velocity is a big deal.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did Freddy break 90 this year?

read better.

"give the guy more than six days to get up to speed."

by larry on Sep 6, 2009 12:10 PM CDT

by Scotty Ballgame on Oct 9, 2009 11:04 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

i doubt it

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

haha!

or his sweat broke 90 proof. will Garcia’s velocity return or is he just going to be a junkballer

read better.

"give the guy more than six days to get up to speed."

by larry on Sep 6, 2009 12:10 PM CDT

by Scotty Ballgame on Oct 9, 2009 11:14 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Umm... gosh.

How about Greg Maddox? He kinda was alright, wasnt he? Won a Cy-thingie?

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maddux

too much maddog 20/20

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

at what point in his career did his sub-90 start?

when he came up he was 92-94. not to mention you came up with the guy with maybe the best command of all time? the point is that these guys are exceptions to an overwhelming rule.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exceptions, yes...

But speed is not the be all and end all of pitching. Movement, variety, and command and game saavy count for a lot.

Anyway, my point was you made a broad sweeping statement about needing to break 90 to be a MLeaguer, which is just not true. I pointed out that knuckleballers dont, and gave you a finesse pitcher who doesnt break 90- you then backpedaled and said ok, yeah, but name a RHP. Did that, and here is another- Kevin Appier. We RARELY get a chance to point out the fact that you were wrong, wrong, wrong.. nyah nyah nyah!! So you can keep trying to be right, but – you arent.

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

actually, his statement was rather narrow.

because blackoutsox can’t break 90, john ely isn’t a major leaguer.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

"If you cant break 90 you're not a major leaguer"

and you call this a narrow statement? wow…

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

where did he write that?

and, wow, that was obviously humor.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Scroll up to find the start of this banter...

and if you meant your humor was obvious… well… nope. it wasnt.

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

would bolding have helped? all caps? italics?

let me know. or perhaps blackoutsox’ velocity IS the catalyst…?

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh god no more velocity debates

please

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

velocity, speed, whatever.

get yours above 90. you’re killing this farm system.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry

I’ll throw harder next time Im on the mound

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

That killed some brain cells.

The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.

by Ozzie Montana on Oct 9, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I may nominate it for conversation of the year....

I’m headed fist-first into the season’s archives to compile the SSS Best of ’09 list.

More to come.

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought the BCB post I linked to about intangibles

Was the dumbest argument I’ve read the entire year. I just may have to amend the list.

The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.

by Ozzie Montana on Oct 9, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

ugh.

Dodgers first, for Jim Thome. If not them, then the Rockies for Todd Helton.

by BoeJouma on Oct 9, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I suppose I should've put a disclaimer on that link, for those unawares what awaited.

WARNING: IF YOUR HEAD DOESN’T ASPLODE READING THIS, YOU MAY SUFFER INJURIES FROM VELOCITOUS FACEPALMING

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

i had actually forgotten this little gem

" Do you guys know people like you are the reason I wouldn’t come on for exstended periods of time. You rui the baseball blogging expieriance."
by trademaker on May 30, 2009 10:31 PM PDT

by U-God on Oct 9, 2009 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're killing your father, bos.

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

and who would that be?

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry, after larry said you're killing the farm system, my mind naturally went to The Big Lebowski scene:

“You’re killing your father, Larry.”

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

ah

self woosh

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

up yours with above average velocity.

we know what implied direction it’s going and that is NORTH!

"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick

by Where Triples Go to Die on Oct 10, 2009 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um, no.
if you can’t break 90, he’s not a major leaguer.

Ely’s out.

The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.

by Ozzie Montana on Oct 9, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

i don't know if colin meant to make a sweeping statement or not.

but if “he” [ely] can’t break 90, he’s not a major leaguer.

i’m also having trouble thinking of a RH (non-knuckler) pitcher who started his major league career without the ability to throw faster than 90. would be interested in any examples.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

it's a market inefficiency, larry!

let’s gobble up all the soft throwers in town!

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Derek Lowe and Bronson Arroyo come to mind.

Not sure about when they first came up to the bigs but neither have thrown over 90 in their recent years.

If the world was perfect, it wouldn't be -- Yogi Berra

by mick10 on Oct 9, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

arroyo's a good one.

i think he could probably touch 90/91 when he came up but he certainly wasn’t there consistently.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

who?

i saw appier and maddux but both could throw 90s when younger.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rick Reuschel.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nick Swisher

If the world was perfect, it wouldn't be -- Yogi Berra

by mick10 on Oct 9, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jose Canseco.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stu Miller, seriously,

though that was a long time ago, and he was used primarily in relief.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Turk Lown

If the world was perfect, it wouldn't be -- Yogi Berra

by mick10 on Oct 9, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

ol' fatty

brought some heat in the beginning.

by Hatchetm on Oct 9, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

His thighs rubbing together

could start a forest fire. So there was some heat, sure.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's another.

though i’d say that if we’re reaching back a quarter century, i’d imagine today the velocity line is getting higher.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

ugh

if you object to hyperbole, fine. you can have that point. but i will bet all day against a soft throwing righty making it as a starter, which was all i was trying to say. there’s a reason why jack egbert couldn’t cut it and why kenny overhauled his draft system.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

You could include any of about fifteen players in the next five and make a solid argument for all of them.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

yes I read that

I just threw out two names I heard more often that the last two on that list

thats all

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

that means your choices could be 9 or 10.

link walks too many for my tastes. ely has been discussed. but all the guys after viciedo, and particularly after CJ, have warts so pick your poison.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, Tony Pena

is not major leauge talent

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 10:37 AM CDT reply actions  

that's stupid.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

so Ely is not major leauge talent

but Pena is?

honest question

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

maybe i keep missing this because i don't read gamethreads

but where did this whole “tony pena sucks” thing start? and why.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

i have the same problem

i’m not sure he’ll ever be dominant, but the dude can clearly do some things on the mound. i assume it has something to do with brandon allen.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bad first impression.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Oct 9, 2009 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

He made mistakes early on, people seem to think Brandon Allen is a lock to be a monster 1B

He’s done alright, and I dont’ know why people are bitching about Pena when the Sox are still paying Linebrink.

The 2009 White Sox....like a 40 degree day.

by Ozzie Montana on Oct 9, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Racists.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

He may not be THE closer (or maybe he is)

but he has major league stuff. How he controls/uses it is something else altogether.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

career BB/9 of 2.64

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Control" is not limited to BB.

He may have little movement, or catching too much of the middle of the plate. You know, “wild inside the strike zone”.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

that'd be command.

control = ability to throw strikes. command = ability to throw good strikes.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

you'd see that in batted ball effects

i already said he’s got a 3.99 FIP for his career.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tony Pena has spent the last 3+ seasons in the big leagues

and has a 3.99 FIP. Also, he can throw 94+ mph. How could he not be a major league talent?

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

This.

And he was valued as equivalent to Brandon Allen, a major league talent.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Peavy is major leauge talent

Or if Peterson's "troublesome" back gives out. Because he's, you know, carrying the team. And some of those guys are heavy.

Mitchell M

by blackoutsox on Oct 9, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Peavy

has more talent than my mom

To be free is to live. To end freedom is to end life.

by usualsuspect on Oct 9, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Helps when Pena facing Cabrera who is hurting

from a all-night bender with Ozzie and friends followed by a fight with the old lady which brings the cops out

read better.

"give the guy more than six days to get up to speed."

by larry on Sep 6, 2009 12:10 PM CDT

by Scotty Ballgame on Oct 9, 2009 10:58 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

well, if that's what it takes to make Pena look good, then so be it.

Sox are gonna have to up their drinking expense budget in 2010.

"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."

by BobbySouthSide on Oct 9, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think Dayan Viciedo is best suited for a DH role.

He can’t play 3B, and would it really help the Sox if he’s our future first basemen? Scouts say he can’t recognize any off-speed pitches, so he should focus on his hitting approach. His potential is in his bat, not in his glove. That’s just my opinion.

by chisox2691 on Oct 9, 2009 11:14 AM CDT reply actions  

DH at 20 years old

might as well throw that money on the fucking fire

by hoodlight on Oct 9, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

That's true.

I was just kind of thinking he’s best suited at DH instead of forcing him on the field, but he is young enough to improve at 3B or 1B.

by chisox2691 on Oct 9, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't mean make him a full time DH this year at AA.

More just saying I wouldn’t be surprised if he became a DH, even though my comment didn’t come off that way.

by chisox2691 on Oct 9, 2009 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

I da man

DeWayne Wise has opted for free agency rather than accept an outright assignment to Triple-A Charlotte.
Wise managed a measly .225/.262/.366 batting line over 142 at-bats this season at the major league level. He’ll try to latch on with another club as a utility outfielder. The 31-year-old can still run the bases fairly well.
Source: Mike Siano on Twitter

by Q!'s Qrew on Oct 9, 2009 11:17 AM CDT reply actions  

hmm. Don't think I'll be renewing my sponsorship.

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Quitter.

...take your hobbit circle jerk to another thread
by larry on May 18, 2009 8:58 PM PDT

by rhythm on Oct 9, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Po'assbitch.

Mo like it.

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

wise linebrink and bridge

for werth

Dodgers first, for Jim Thome. If not them, then the Rockies for Todd Helton.

by BoeJouma on Oct 9, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, but like a cute one

from madison county

Dodgers first, for Jim Thome. If not them, then the Rockies for Todd Helton.

by BoeJouma on Oct 9, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

when i first read the title, i didnt see the word 'Sox'

i just figured larry was racist.

good write up man, thanks

Dodgers first, for Jim Thome. If not them, then the Rockies for Todd Helton.

by BoeJouma on Oct 9, 2009 12:26 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

"Where the White Prospects at?"

Said Cleavon Little

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

OT - This Day in White Sox History

Today is the 90th anniversary of the Reds beating the White Sox in the 1919 World Series, thus igniting the infamous “Black Sox” scandal that resulted in 8 Sox players being banned from baseball for life for throwing the series.

A proud moment indeed!

Get the details here:

"One more game and then we can blow this son of a b@#$* up!" - Hawk Harrelson on his thoughts regarding the Metrodome

by tailgater on Oct 9, 2009 12:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Or maybe here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sox_scandal

"One more game and then we can blow this son of a b@#$* up!" - Hawk Harrelson on his thoughts regarding the Metrodome

by tailgater on Oct 9, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I second that.

The minor league updates throughtout the year also have been excellent. Thanks for taking the time, larry. Question: any other “wild-card-sleeper-ya-just-got-a-hunch” player in the Sox system (other than those already mentioned) that you think is worth keeping an eye on? We won’t hold you to it (OK, probably 98% of SSS will, but stil….)

by palehose67 on Oct 9, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

i did the 'interesting prospects' thing a few weeks back.

foremost on that list was miguel gonzalez, who is my early pick for 2010 breakout/sleeper/whatever term you want to use. a guy who i didn’t include in that but like some is stephen sauer.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sauer or Leesman?

I like Sauer personally, a little older and a righty but far superior numbers, I wish they would have pushed him to WS for the final month or so of the season.

http://twitter.com/FutureSox

by The Big Hurt on Oct 9, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've never met the guy,

but I bet he’s a hoot. “Sauer”? Think of the possibilities.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

not that you asked me

but i remember all the scouts being in love with Sweeney’s swing. not so with Danks.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

well

if it’s shorthand for “we love the tools but will the power ever develop for him to not be just a fourth outfielder?” it’s probably apt. sweeney never had a K rate as high as danks’, though.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

i think the big difference

is one was projected as a RF, the other a CF.

by Hatchetm on Oct 9, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is true

supposedly Danks is a major league CF right now.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Minus the bat.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

thought it was implied.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought you were implied.

;)

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

ryan sweeney is an interesting player

his WAR value in 09 was 3.9
WAR for 2009

Sweeney 3.9
Cargon 2.3
Swisher 3.7
Ethier 2.6

Not saying he’s the better player but interesting to see. his UZR defense in RF was elite territory, but solid above/avg in CF which would be 9th best among MLB CFs, 4th best in AL CFs (#1 in AL was Dewayne wise among UZR).Sweeney OPS + is 101 and 104 so a league avg bat.

by Asfan4ever723 on Oct 10, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

i'm guessing he's not that

the scouting reports never said anything about elite outfield D

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 10, 2009 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thought this list was pretty interesting
1. Who’s the greatest living player?
Barry Bonds 38.9%
Alex Rodriguez 12.8%
Willie Mays 12.1%
Nolan Ryan 7.1%
Hank Aaron 6.7%
Pete Rose 3.6%
Roger Clemens 1.9%
Stan Musial 1.7%
Babe Ruth 1.5%
Roberto Alomar 0.8%

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_online/news/2003/07/01/survey/

by Carbiner on Oct 9, 2009 2:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Totally. He's my favorite living player.

The only thing that all those poll results demonstrate, is professional athletes are idiots.

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Minimum.

Some listed Clemente, I’d bet. Big Papi, for sure.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

KGJr????

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Better than Robbie, for sure.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

What about the results for "player who gets the most from the least talent?"

Pujols and Maddux??

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also - the opposite - "gets the least from the most talent":

Loaiza and Big Hurt, to name a couple.
hahaha!

The tension is so thick, I could FNS with it. -SkanchoDanza

by homesickalien on Oct 9, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Alomar was listed by all the closet queens.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

GrinnellSteve (Iowa): What’s the early take on Jared Mitchell’s debut? Timeline for when he might help the Sox? And what is likely to happen to Jordan Danks both next year and beyond? Thanks a lot.

Kevin Goldstein: Early take was VERY VERY good. I don’t think he’ll be an especially fast mover, so maybe end of 2011 would be the optimistic timetable. I think you’ll see Danks back at Double-A, and he needs to solve that test first.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 2:36 PM CDT reply actions  

soft tossing righties

Put me in the camp of those disagreeing with the sweeping generalization that righties that can’t throw 90+ are not MLB talent:

Livan Hernandez (at least back to 2002)
John Lannan
Randy Wells
John Burkett
Brian lawrence
Paul Byrd
Rick Reed
Lowe and Arroyo were mentioned

There are actually a fair number of them. Many of them right around league average pitchers. It is of course much less likely that a righty with a sub 90 FB will make the bigs. And it’s almost unheard of to be star as a soft tossing righty. But to just dismiss every righty who can’t throw 90+ is wee bit much.

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Oct 9, 2009 4:04 PM CDT reply actions  

What was El Duque throwing for us in 2005?

I like the Byrd/Burkett/Hernandez reference. Always a pleasure, Doc.

I was a Catholic boy, Redeemed through pain, not through joy - Jim Carroll

by winningugly on Oct 9, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

Burkett was one of my favorite pitchers. Possibly the only pitcher in MLB history that was a better bowler than pitcher (he had bowled 300 on more than one occasion).

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Oct 9, 2009 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

89-92 mph

To be free is to live. To end freedom is to end life.

by usualsuspect on Oct 9, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

i'm not sure where fangraphs gets its FB data

but based on what i’ve been using for BUOs (Kalk, brooks, gameday), there are very very few that can’t touch 91, let alone 90.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

FYI, Lannan's a lefty

He’s also managed to have reasonable success for two straight years with a high FIP. I guess a 50+ percent ground ball rate and low BABIP will let that happen…

Chicago White Sox Examiner — I wish I could cuss right now.

by UribeAuction on Oct 9, 2009 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

but i did say "break 90" and i'll stick to that.

Wells clearly can, fwiw.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 9, 2009 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah break 90

Well that’s obviously different than average 90. Most guys that throw 88-89 can “break” 90. I’d be shocked if Ely can’t “break” 90. If you had said that then I would have said that is pretty rare. Still the Livan hernandez’s and paul Byrds of the world still qualify. Probably Burkett too. And if you extend to relievers you start picking up the Danny herreras and Darren O’Days and Cla Merediths of the world. And that’s not even including the submariners of MLB (chad bradford etc.). I don’t think meredith is a submariner, is he?

So I think even break 90 there are occasional guys who can be succesful. yes it’s relatively rare, but absolutes are very rare in baseball. I mean heck you can’t even say 5-5, 150 lb guys who throw 85 are absolutely positively not MLB talent (Danny Herrera may be even smaller than that).

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Oct 9, 2009 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

edit

If that’s how I had understood your statement then I would have said……

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Oct 9, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

colin needs to be clearer clearly.

pronoun usage, can’t break 90 turns into average 90. no wonder he’s still in school.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

knew either

you or Colin would pick up on that. legit criticism. Already edited.

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Oct 9, 2009 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

i do find this interesting though.

there is not an insubstantial number of pitchers who used to be able to throw faster but now can’t but still are effective major leaguers. but you don’t see that many guys break into the league already at that velocity. is there something to the “crafty junkballer” who has experience or is it just that a name pitcher can use their past results to get chances. among other potential theories.

by larry on Oct 9, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

whereas soft tossing rookie righties had better get good results their first chance or they might not get another.

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Oct 9, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

You put SNOT on the ball?

Said Vaughn?

My signature has been drinking, not me...

by DrEmilioLizardo on Oct 9, 2009 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

d

There’s certainly not as many soft tossing right handers around as there are seemingly nonathletic hitters who can get on base.

by Carbiner on Oct 9, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

control continues to improve with age

so i think it has something to do with that. throwing good strikes consistently is possible, it’s just very difficult to do without some margin for error. i’m guessing these guys don’t need it.

2009 is just 2007 in 2008's clothing. - Trooper

by colintj on Oct 10, 2009 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Danks/Sweeney

Sweeney has hit in a wasteland home park which is tough on hitters, his splits have a huge gap

HOME: .257 / .655
AWAY: .326 / .842

so danks will have a chance based on hitting in the cell with that advantage

by Asfan4ever723 on Oct 10, 2009 2:22 PM CDT reply actions  

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