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Steroid era, HOF, Shoeless Joe

With steroids news coming out (always seems to happen around the beginning of spring training every year), here are two option HOF voters have regarding steroid era players:

1) Everybody from that era is banned from the Hall of Fame because even if a player did not take steroids (i.e. Curt Schilling), his statistics are still affected by the use of steroids because Schilling had to pitch against Bonds so much.  In that case the use of steroids in baseball hurt him.  Another example using Moises Alou demonstrates how steroid use helped a non steroid user's statistics.  Alou batted behind Bonds for the Giants.  Obviously his RBI and runs totals were greatly increased because he batted behind Bonds.  So in conclusion nobody's statistics from that era are legitimate.

2) Have a steroid era wing for all the players who played in the steroid era or at least put an asterisk by players who played during the steroid era because regardless of whether or not they took steroids, their statistics are affected.  If players from the steroid era get into the Hall of Fame (some already have) there needs to be the recognition that they played in an era where there were so many cheaters that nobody's statistics are legitimate.

To those who argue that players who played in the steroid era, but did not take steroids should not be punished, I say too bad.  Those players are also at fault because they did not report the rampant steroid use taking place in MLB.  I know it was not illegal until late in the era, but it was still wrong.  Those clean players could have tried to clean up baseball to avoid the mess we are in now with an illegitimate home run king and even illegitimate championships (the Yankees would not have won all those championships without Roger Clemens).  

For us White Sox fans, it would be a double standard if clean players from the steroid era go in because of Shoeless Joe Jackson.  Shoeless Joe is only guilty of knowing about the Black Sox scandal but not revealing it.  He refused the gamblers' money that was forced upon him.  What he did is the equivalent of what all the clean players did during the steroid era by remaining quiet about the issue.  If any players from the steroids era get into the HOF (some already have), Shoeless Joe Jackson ought to be in there too.

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he may not care but I do

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Feb 7, 2009 10:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Joe didn't go through with it

he needs to be in the HOF

"Whenever Kirk/Ben are in together. Kirk turns into a crappy player, because he tries to freeze Gordon out of the offense." - Andrew7

by gobulls1124 on Feb 7, 2009 10:33 PM CST up reply actions  

uh huh. a likely story.

and, at any rate, unfortunately “not going through with it” isn’t a defense.

our schtick is old

by larry on Feb 7, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm with you larry

people still talk about that guy like he is a hero…. the jackass threw a white sox world series! piss on him and all of his cronies

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 8, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions  

maybe, but people seems to ascribe a cretin-esque level of intelligence to jackson in this.

he’d played major league baseball for over a decade. he’d seen others get banned for fixing. the rule wasn’t exactly hidden. it’s kind of ridiculous to pretend that he didn’t know that it was wrong.

our schtick is old

by larry on Feb 8, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Not to mention the distortion of facts

I love the legend of of Joe but this is bullshit. HE TOOK money. End of discussion.

"It just occurred to me that the White Sox could win the division."

by SuddenSam on May 22, 2008 9:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

" That just makes me want to puke all over your head, sir."

by Tdogg on Feb 8, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

i think its okay to sympathize

because yeah, it is a sad story, but that’s the whole point.

now exploiting that sympathy into a false cause is a load of crap.

by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 8, 2009 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Was he that dumb?

Maybe he was just better at masking the fix with his play than the other – enough to continue to allow people to generate “controversy” in this day and age.

In the end he took the money.

White Sox: Trying to roll a hard six.

by vince_ on Feb 9, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep.

I have to agree.

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Feb 9, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions  

"The people who want to put Joe Jackson in the Hall of Fame..."

“… are baseball’s answer to those women who show up at murder trials wanting to marry the cute murderer.”

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Feb 7, 2009 11:58 PM CST reply actions  

bill james writes truth.

for a guy whose glove was described as where triples go to die, sure is interesting to note those triples to left in the thrown games – not to mention his interesting splits. and if you’re not going to go through something, an important part is returning, i don’t know, the money you were paid to do something.

our schtick is old

by larry on Feb 8, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

jackson five?

I think Bull Durham was overrated.

by U-God on Feb 8, 2009 8:34 AM CST reply actions  

how about option 3

and not do a damn thing with the hof process.

yeah, steroids is illegal, and yeah, lying to govt is illegal, but the bitching and moaning from the press and fans when long time suspected players gets outed irks me because they were worshiping the same players with no questions asked during those suspected years. and comparing fixing the actual of outcome of a game to steroid use – where there is no valid method for quantifying its effects on a player’s performance or game outcome – haha, c’mon man.

i hope that evidence the prosecution will use against bonds will be denied, because it will be a big FU to everyone who turned a blind eye to systemic steroid use in baseball. there are no scapegoats when everyone is involved.

by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 8, 2009 9:07 AM CST reply actions  

ok, let's set aside shoeless joe for now and focus on buck weaver

are there any arguments for not reinstating buck?

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Feb 8, 2009 1:24 PM CST reply actions  

only if you're a terrorist.

obama says he should be reinstated. i don’t see how any red-blooded american could argue against that.

our schtick is old

by larry on Feb 8, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

that's fearmongering I can believe in!

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.

by The Wizard on Feb 8, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

here's what osama bin laden would argue.

baseball long ago, long before the black sox, determined that fixing was the most egregious offense someone in the game could commit. so egregious, because it went to the very integrity of the game, that it deserved the harshest punishment that could be meted out – permanent ban.

so what did the 1919 white sox do? it wasn’t fixing a batting race (and not even for money but for malice), which resulted in a permanent ban. it wasn’t fixing a regular season game, which resulted in a permanent ban. it wasn’t even a single world series game – it was the whole series. they committed the most egregious offense in the most egregious way possible.

so what of buck? the determination was made that the black sox offense was so terrible that anyone who had first hand knowledge of it and did nothing to stop it was complicit and also deserved a permanent ban. buck serves as a lesson and a deterrent. a player, despite the egregiousness of fixing, may be reluctant to “snitch” on a teammate when they have first-hand knowledge of it. but the lesson of buck weaver and the permanence of the ban provides the necessary stick (and the cover) for a player to go to league/team authorities.

our schtick is old

by larry on Feb 8, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Hoytsstash thinks....What about THIS fuckin' character?

"wow, yeah. cubs ST should be awesome. have a great time."
-by Larry on Jan. 9, 2009 3:09 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Feb 8, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions  

another argument about the HOF

if you don’t like it ignore it, it’s always ’ he got in and didn’t deserve it ’ or ’ how come so and so got eliminated in the first vote ‘, it’s a glorified awards ceremony, a bit like the oscars, and Nicholas Cage has a best actor oscar.

anytime you like sunshine

by hoodlight on Feb 8, 2009 5:14 PM CST reply actions  

So I guess Chuck Comiskey should've been stripped of his ownership

since he allegedly was told of the scheme before the Series and did nothing.

It is practically impossible to determine what course of action should’ve been taken, since we were not there and not privvy to anything other than what the “victors” report.

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Feb 8, 2009 6:18 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

I hear ya, WU

"wow, yeah. cubs ST should be awesome. have a great time."
-by Larry on Jan. 9, 2009 3:09 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Feb 8, 2009 9:57 PM CST up reply actions  

rec

"Whenever Kirk/Ben are in together. Kirk turns into a crappy player, because he tries to freeze Gordon out of the offense." - Andrew7

by gobulls1124 on Feb 10, 2009 5:52 PM CST up reply actions  

anytime you like sunshine

by hoodlight on Feb 8, 2009 6:37 PM CST reply actions  

...is she really gonna TAKE HIM HOME TONIGHT ?!?!?!?!

FUCK YEAH HOODIE ! ! !

"wow, yeah. cubs ST should be awesome. have a great time."
-by Larry on Jan. 9, 2009 3:09 PM PST

by Hoytsstash on Feb 8, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions  

steroid era

It happened, it’s too bad. Now it’s time to move on.

I don’t think an institution that let this happen has the right to start enforcing it retroactively. There is now a system and testing in place. There are clear rules and punishments for testing positive, lets just move forward with that.

If you dominated in the Steroid Era, you deserve to go into the HOF, just like others who dominated their eras before.

by shaftr on Feb 9, 2009 12:05 AM CST reply actions  

Interesting.

In today’s Orlando Slantinel:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sports/columnists/orl-sportsdwhitley09a020909feb09,0,4991341.column

Today’s greatest players will never make the Hall of Fame. Let’s see Bud Selig and the union clowns explain that to future generations.

I wonder how many voters feel that way.

I would rather douse a newspaper in gasoline, wrap it around my penis and light it on fire then relive that experience
by armedpp on Aug 29, 2007 2:36 AM EDT

by winningugly on Feb 9, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions  

i trust mlb and the union.

they really have solved the steroid problem. baseball is totally clean now. even if it isn’t it doesn’t matter. its a players choice. it doesn’ t affect me. it’s their bodies, let them do what the want. in fact, steroids don’t even help baseball players. AND steroids are totally harmless. people aren’t dying right and left are they? i’m so sick and tired of this steroid shit. look, i sniff glue all the time, and it hasn’t done a thing to me! sniffing glue is probably worse than steroids and my mind is clear as a bell.

by Hatchetm on Feb 9, 2009 8:19 AM CST reply actions  

huh?

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Feb 10, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

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