Catcher Valuation
The Pierzynski discussion got me curious about catcher valuation. I looked at the 12 free agent catchers who had 100+ PAs in 2008 and signed free agent deals (included Olivo because he chose not to void his option). Here's the list:
| Jason Varitek |
| Miguel Olivo |
| Dave Ross |
| Gregg Zaun |
| Brad Ausmus |
| Jason LaRue |
| Henry Blanco |
| Paul Bako |
| Jamie Burke |
| Kevin Cash |
| Chad Moeller |
| Javier Valentin |
Aside from Ausmus, all of them signed for less than the 2008 dollar value per FanGraphs. As a whole this group signed for 47% of their 2008 dollar value, and the trend figures to continue with Ivan Rodriguez and the other remaining guys (signed for $15.175 mil, worth $32.4 mil).
What is the explanation for this? Teams value wins at 47% of what they did in 2008? Teams are projecting huge downturns for these guys?
I don't have the stat chops to make a convincing enough case. But it just feels wrong that catchers are spotted so much value just for taking the field (positional + replacement makes up most of these guys' value). My completely anecdotal opinion is that FanGraphs significantly overvalues catchers for some reason. I figured this would be a good community to tell me why I'm wrong!
SouthSideSox is a community driven site. As such, users are able to express their thoughts and opinions in a FanPost, such as this one, which represents the views of this particular fan, but not necessarily the entire community or SouthSideSox editors.
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63 comments
Comments
I don't have the stat chops either
You do bring up a great topic.
Is it just catchers that are valued less or is it all positions in this economic climate?
I thought that besides the top tier free agents everyone was taking less money than their “worth”.
It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
by ElDiablo on Mar 3, 2009 5:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hudson 2.5 wins per year over last 4 years
Wins were going at 4-5 mil a piece.
He signed for 3.4 with incentives to 8
Fangraphs had him worth 8.7mil last year
Orlando Cabrera was “fangraphs” worth 16.6 Mil last year
signed for 4
off topic but
Looking at the NBA is much worse. Teams are stuck in horrible deals that are guaranteed. Look at the Bulls roster and it is littered with horrible contracts that at the time were considered palatable. Ben Gordon turned down 6/60 deal. People were blaming the bulls screaming to go higher.
There is an interesting article by Bill Simmons on the NBA. I take my simmons with salt but he raises valid points.
In a year we could be looking at the C.C., Teixera, or Furcal contract and laughing. Inflated contracts seem to be coming back down to earth.
It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
by ElDiablo on Mar 3, 2009 5:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
For Hudson and OCab
You need to knock some money off of what the players are worth because of the draft pick compensation. The picks can have a dollar value hung on them as well. The owners say:
we’re getting Hudson who will give us 2.5 wins. we should be paying out about 9 MM a year for that. but, we also have to pay a draft pick valued at $(draftpick). 9 MM/yr – $(draftpick)/(length of deal) seems like a valid deal from our point of view.
of course, that’s screwing over the player because he doesn’t get anything from the draft pick, but that’s a huge reason for why Hudson and OCab’s dollar valuations are so divergant from their actual contracts.
by coffeepac on Mar 5, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Link to Simmons
It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
by ElDiablo on Mar 3, 2009 5:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
any thing that says willie harris is worth 14 mil. is full of shit anyway
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Mar 3, 2009 5:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why?
I mean, there are some valid reasons, but also some non-valid ones.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's one that i have serious trouble with, as well - though i'm not going to go after the entire system based upon a few hiccups in the system.
i think the suspicion is from us seeing the guy play while with the white sox. also, our suspicion of the accuracy of defensive stats.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 4, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
also its KenWo
But Frank Thomas was always his own guy, he always lived by some sort of code that wasn’t especially clear to anyone but him.
by U-God on Mar 4, 2009 12:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What does that mean?
Would you really pay willie harris 14 million dollars? if you would youre a fool
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Mar 4, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The question is really, "would have you have paid Willie $14MM for his 2008 production?"
Not going forward.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whats the difference.
you usually get paid on your recent past production…. extreme cases such as Evan Longoria exist..where they get a huge contract without ever doing anything….. OK fine… Harris had an outstanding 2008…. would you pay 14 million for him in 09? hell no.
No I wouldn’t have paid him 14 million for 2008 because they got him way cheaper than that.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Mar 4, 2009 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i would not
you know i’m just messing with you. you bring a certain lovable goofballness to the site. that’s what i was referring to
But Frank Thomas was always his own guy, he always lived by some sort of code that wasn’t especially clear to anyone but him.
by U-God on Mar 5, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not disagreeing.
His WAR isn’t ALL fielding-based. Harris did post a .340 wOBA in 2008, .015 points better than his previous best with the Braves and .035 points better than any White Sox season.
His +17 runs in CF/LF last year IS pretty high, especially in 3/4 of a season. It’s +33 per 150 in LF and +28 per 150 in LF. He rated +9 per 150 in LF as a Brave.
What if we’re a bit conservative and say he’s +10 runs as a LF per 150, so that he was worth +7 runs last year. That makes him a 2.2 WAR guy instead of a 3.2 WAR guy. And the dollar value associated with it (in pre 2009 off-season free agent terms) of about $10MM. Is THAT totally unbelievable, too? Because it’s a pretty decent estimate, but still significantly more than White Sox fans would have expected.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sure, i can buy that more readily.
and i think it’s more than anyone would expect considering his past history. he had a nice year last year. but i think he’s probably far more of a 1 win-ish player going forward.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 4, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you're really interested, why don't you look at all players signed this past off-season
and then their projected WAR using CHONE? you’d have to do a correction for type-A free agents, but building that database wouldn’t be that bad. then you could see what teams are paying per win and you could see which positions were valued and why, based on quality of talent and number of open jobs.
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 3, 2009 5:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
also: why are you getting caught up in the dollar valuations?
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 3, 2009 5:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
i would imagine because he runs a site on trade and free agent rumors.
money is kind of important there.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 3, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that it would be interesting to see which position took the biggest hit.
It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
by ElDiablo on Mar 3, 2009 7:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
good call.
i think i get what Tim’s issues are a lot more clearly. yeah the dollar valuation on fangraphs is going to be total crap because it’s based on yearly fielding bUZRs, for one, not to mention a possibly/probably flimsy model.
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 3, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But Fangraphs is pretty open about what the dollar value means and it's pretty specific.
And to use it for another use misrepresents it, no?
I can see Fangraphs perhaps need to make it more obvious what the dollar value means.
Additionally, there’s quite a gap between what a player deserves and what they’ll actually get paid. We all know Manny was going to get $25MM this year even though we know he needs to be a 6 WAR player to earn it and that’s not likely.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As one example, to use the 2008 WAR number as a 2009 projection is poor form, too.
But there seem to be fewer arguments with WAR.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but think of the wig sales!
one of the many issues with using the valuation is that it completely misses the off the field stuff. maybe there’s an argument that this stuff is baked in. but let’s assume that willie harris is worth $15 million and manny ramirez is worth $15 million. how much revenue does manny’s team get just by him being there? maybe i’m missing a huge willie harris following but i’m sure it’s not close. the white sox experienced this a bit when ken griffey came over. there was a clear bump in ticket sales immediately after (and, since his first series was in KC, it also seemed clear they saw a bump). and there sure were a shitload of white sox griffey shirts around the cell. maybe it’s not important enough in dollars to actually worry about in isolation but when there are multiple such issues the valuation could be off quite a bit, even if we’re pretty close with the WAR.
and do not get me started on how playoff stats are not even considered in these valuations, either in dollars, WAR, or whatever.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 4, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they are to a certain extent open
but only to devotees. i can’t tell you how many times i’ve had to re-link the win values series already. it’s long and takes time to understand. so that’s not fangraphs fault, but they do encourage it. and besides, why necessarily base the valuation model of a single year WAR? contract evaluation on a case by case basis is entirely possible without it.
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 4, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WAR isn't a measure of true talent. It's a measure of one-year value.
And $$ is an extension of that: what was the one season worth on the free agent market (without some more specific economic questions that are valid but under-studied.)
Certainly there’s room for projecting WAR, which is a totally different process. Just like computing how much a player should make going forward is a different process.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
you're awesome, sky.
i’m nervous but…will you be my facebook friend?
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 4, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes!
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 4, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Whore.
WHOOOOOOOOORRRRRREEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the post wasn't for you. fuck off.
by larry on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM EST
by winningugly on Mar 4, 2009 8:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's nothing i don't already know.
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 4, 2009 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, good for you... I was just sharing.
Maybe others will find it interesting.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 5, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
colin gets upset when you reply to him with stuff he already knows.
he’s got a complex about it. doesn’t want to be viewed as inadequate and stuff. you should just use that function which allows you to float a reply near where the discussion is so that people who might find it interesting/relevant can find it.
oh. wait.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 5, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you want to elaborate on colin's insecurity re:
Daddy and all? You’ve done an excellent job of diagnosing his neuroses and the etiology.
the post wasn't for you. fuck off.
by larry on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM EST
by winningugly on Mar 5, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
everyone is just threatened by me
they know i’m the cock of the walk. take aim at number 1 and all that.
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 5, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha. I'll put in a "floating web of pseudo-replies" feature request to the SBN tech crew.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 5, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, not that they’re crap or anything. They seem better than BP’s. But a lot of people use those valuations, I use them sometimes…I’d like to debate possible flaws in them so that we know their specific limitations. Like if they overvalue catchers, or whiff on defense, or whatever. Or maybe they’re fine and wins are valued lower starting sometime in late Dec/early Jan.
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 3, 2009 8:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
well, on the latter point, we don't know yet.
and won’t until next october. obviously that’s a limitation of their valuations, at least as to how people use them. people tend to like to pick a value – the fashionable one early this offseason was $4.8 million but you could shorthand it to $5M – as to what they thought the price of a marginal win on the free agent market would be. if mr. superanalyst is right about that and right about what the guy will produce in 2009, he’ll know the value. of course, it’s pretty clear that the price isn’t going to be $4.8M. and you tell me whether these people are correct with their performance projections.
also, on defense, it’s not good. we can debate all day long what defensive stat is good and what isn’t. bottom line, if you have to have that debate, none of them are that good. especially for the win value ascribed to them. i’d pretty much ignore one years valuation for that and try to look at a three year (or longer) average. obviously impossible for some players and when players start to decline you run into more issues.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 3, 2009 9:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
postional adjustments appear to be something else you're having trouble wrapping your head around.
not uncommon.
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/and_more_on_positional_adjustments/
this is something that is long debated and few seem to actually have their heads fully wrapped around it. the above thread at tom tango’s site is a good place to start, since he’s probably one of, if not the, best in this area. as noted above, we’re not that good at defense overall yet and defense for catchers is further behind. if you haven’t read tom tango’s materials in the HBT annual, i recommend.
i don’t know what to say in response to your point about catchers getting too much value just for taking the field other than there simply just aren’t that many people who can catch at the major league level. currently, the debate in the stat community is not that the adjustment for catchers is too much – but is becoming too little, due to the dearth of good enough catchers.
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by larry on Mar 4, 2009 9:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hence, why they are rated as more valuable than other positions.
Perhaps it is harder to “catch” than any other position – either because it takes a greater skillset and/or mindset to play it.
the post wasn't for you. fuck off.
by larry on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM EST
by winningugly on Mar 4, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it's draining physically
you hit worse just by playing the position.
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 4, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I feel that just a glance at the current market shows that you can get a capable starting catcher for $1-1.5MM. So when you are setting the $400K replacement level bar at Robby Hammock and Vance Wilson, that’s a mistake.
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who do you count as a capable starter for $1 to $1.5MM? And what do you mean by "capable"?
Hammock’s .276 and .234 wOBAs the last two years (in about 50 PAs each season) put him well below replacement level.
Vance Wilson hasn’t played in the majors since 2006 and while his performance varied his last few seasons, I agree he was about replacement-level overall.
In 2008, here are some guys rated as rep level catchers in a significant number of PAs: Jose Molina, Jeff Mathis, Brad Ausmus, Paul Bako, Kenji Johjima, Yorvit Torrealba (not including any measure of fielding).
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
By capable, I mean Ivan Rodriguez and Gregg Zaun.
I was referring to these replacement level catchers at FanGraphs.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/2009-replacement-level-catchers
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Additionally, like I mentioned before...
Just because many MLB teams don’t realize the proper value of a catcher doesn’t mean they aren’t actually providing that value. (I’m talking WAR here, not $$$.)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense. But if we are able to to establish that as a whole, MLB teams undervalue catching, then shouldn’t the cost of a marginal catcher win be less than it is for other positions?
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it's a theory vs. applied thing.
A 2 WAR catcher helps your team win as much as a 2 WAR first baseman. But given the actual markets for each position, you’d rather spend $8MM on the 1B and go cheap on the catcher rather than vice versa. If that’s what we’re talking about I’m with you. But again, when I’m talking valuation, I’m more focused on the 2 WAR piece.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A few thoughts.
One, major league teams tend to be behind the ball on many things. OBP used to be a big inefficiency. They overpay mediocre closers with high saves totals. And they currently (as a group) don’t appreciate fielding ability or the relative difficult of positions as well as they should.
Look how bad a replacement-level catcher hits. Colin, it’s time for that chart you had! Just having a mediocre-hitting catcher is valuable. Having a mediocre-hitting left fielder is easy.
I’m all for not using Fangraphs’ dollar values for most things. They have a use, but it’s very narrow, and the confusion isn’t worth it. I’d rather focus on WAR.
In this market, teams are spending much less per marginal win for free agents than in past years – look at Burrell, Dunn, Cabrera, and Hudson as examples. It’s not just catchers.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 10:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Two of those do not belong.
$8MM/yr. for Burrell does seem a bit much when Abreu signed for $5MM, to say nothing of $10MM/year for Dunn (but it was Jim Bowden’s “eff you” to MLB as he departed- he had to have known his time was nigh).
the post wasn't for you. fuck off.
by larry on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM EST
by winningugly on Mar 4, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Burrell's a 2-3 WAR player
Before this off-season, that would have cost $9 to $13MM. And teams love big bats. Dunn is slightly better, and there was only one Bobby Abreu.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's assume average fielding ability for both a catcher and left fielder.
In 2008, the league-average wOBA of catchers was .323. For corner outfielders, it was .341. That .018 point difference is about 18 runs over a full season, or 1.8 wins. So, given a left fielder and a catcher who hit the same, the catcher is 1.8 wins more valuable. At pre-2009 offseason rates, that costs about $8MM on the free agent market.
There are reasons that judging positional difficult based purely on offense isn’t ideal, but there aren’t any big problems for these positions.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 4, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So if Matt Wieters and another great-hitting catcher happen to enter the AL in 2009, and the two best-hitting LFs go down with injuries, that 1.8 win position gap will shrink considerably?
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why I added my caveat.
There are reasons that judging positional difficult based purely on offense isn’t ideal, but there aren’t any big problems for these positions.
Right now, we’re in a golden age of 3Bs. If you judge the positions by their offensive output, that penalizes 3B relative to other positions, because it sets the average 3B equal to the average 2B. But if you use defensive stats to see how players compare in UZR when they switch between positions, you find 3B is no less valuable than 2B, and the total value of the current 3B crop is significantly more than at 2B.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wOBA positional averages
how much to the have to pay the Players -- that's what she said -- of the league like BA?
by colintj on Mar 4, 2009 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Remind me again how replacement level for catchers was determined? Maybe I was looking at the wrong thing, but I saw something where FanGraphs was using 6-7 guys who signed minor league deals, most of who did not play much in 2008. If that is the case, isn’t the sample size too small for something so important? And, isn’t it also hugely important in catcher valuation that a Gregg Zaun signs for $1.5 mil?
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 10:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, CA is a bit fudged. Well, it's estimated.
The relative value of the others positions were determined by comparing how players rated when they moved between positions by things such as UZR. Since catching is a whole different beast, Tango and Fangraphs basically use an offensive adjustment, comparing how well catchers hit compared to the average hitter. They’re 12.5 runs worse over a full season (or whatever), so they get a 12.5 run position adjustment.
Also, we need to be careful about using “valuation” to mean two different things. A player’s value could be his WAR or it could be how much he’s worth in terms of dollars. I’m mostly using it to mean WAR, here (or as a generic term that’s measuring production). So Zaun’s contract is irrelevant to determining his WAR, it’s irrelevant to determining how much he SHOULD be paid, but it’s quite relevant to determining what you’d actually want to sign him and other catchers for, since MLB teams are a bit off on valuing (in both senses of the word) catchers.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To me that is the main endgame of placing a WAR on a player: to determine his dollar/trade value. So all those market inefficiencies, they need to be baked into the $ valuation model or else there is really no point in putting a $ value on a player. If we say Zaun is worth X, but no team in baseball would pay him X or anything close, what is the point of saying that?
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
identifying a market inefficiency?
not sure what your objection is. if something is worth more than it’s being paid, that’s kind of important. we used to say this about guys who got on base or who play good defense. simply because “baseball” hasn’t figured it out yet, doesn’t mean it’s not worth noting.
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by larry on Mar 6, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But this isnt like OBP or defense. If the one smart team figures out that catchers or 2Bs are undervalued by the market…so what? They’re not gonna start signing up a bunch of catchers. I want a model that says a catcher win is worth X because this is what an MLB team is willing to pay. If every sabermetric dollar valuation model says Gregg Zaun is worth $5 mil a year, what is the application of that?
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it means that a smart team would sign him for whatever dollar value they can below $5M.
the point is not that “one smart team” is going to figure it out. once one team figures something out, another is going to figure it out and then another and then another. there’s a reason these inefficiences eventually correct themselves. and that’s how the market should work. i’m sorry you can’t see the long view. you’re interested in the right now. if saying right now someone is getting more value spending $2M on the $5M zaun rather than $2M on x player who the market actually realizes is worth $2M, sorry.
southsidesox.com - now the best place on the interwebs for chicago white sox analysis and discussion.
by larry on Mar 6, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd.
the post wasn't for you. fuck off.
by larry on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM EST
by winningugly on Mar 6, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There should be a combination of actual worth and the way the market assigns worth when teams make decisions.
Another application of positional inefficiency is actually putting a good field weak hit player in a corner spot; knowing how his defense will compare at each position and how good he needs to be in order to have value at the new position.
And with the current glut of talented 3Bs, it would behoove a team to look at moving the right 3B to 2B.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a TON of discussion about a player's production that's unrelated to salary, making WAR have many more applications than money.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So….WAR alone would be a poor way to judge what contracts are good and bad?
by Tim Dierkes on Mar 6, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends how you're defining good and bad.
If the market pays 1B $6MM per free agent win, is spending $5MM per win on a 1B a good move? Not in my mind. You’re beating some other teams, but when free agents average about $4.5MM per win (just for example), you shouldn’t spend any money on a 1B and instead spend it on a catcher.
WAR tells you how good a player is. That seems extremely important to figuring out how much to pay for a player. If you went straight off of WAR and spent your money to maximize your return, you’d do pretty darn well.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Mar 6, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
rarely is a catcher a complete package
A catcher who can actually catch and hit is a really valuable commodity. I think GMs realize this, but I don’t know if they realize how rare it is. The result is players who can only do one of the two well, or both at an average level, are undervalued.
by shaftr on Mar 9, 2009 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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