Separated at birth - Derrek Lee & Paul Konerko: Who would you rather have on your team?
Hi SSS, I'm Dan, a Cubs fan and regular on BCB. Here's a copy of the post I put up yesterday, and thought your site should get a chance to respond, too...
My roommate, a die-hard White Sox fan, and I were discussing the value of Derrek Lee & Paul Konerko. Both of us agreed that our respective first baseman is the better choice. I'll let Bleed Cubbie Blue make the decision. I'll be posting this to South Side Sox, too, but need to wait a day to activate my membership. I'll be certain to link to the results.
Without further ado, I'll present the facts as straightforward as possible. All statistics found below can be found using Baseball-Reference, FanGraphs, Baseball Prospectus, Cot's Baseball Contracts, and Fantasy Pitch FX, and is current as of 08/05/09.
Both players are 33 years of age, and entered MLB in 1997, and have played nearly the exact same number of games (1632 & 1652). Derrek will turn 34 a few months before Paul.
Both players are right-handed hitters and fielders; they are approximately of the same stature: 6'3-5 & 205 lbs.
Derrek has been healthy throughout his career, with a broken wrist a few years ago, but this year has been bothered by back problems. Paul has been even healthier, with only one short DL stint in his career.
Lee has made nearly $58M in his career; Paul, $66M. Both are signed through 2010.
Paul has been selected to the all-star game three times, Lee, twice; Lee has three Gold Gloves, Konerko has zero. Lee was third in MVP voting in 2005, Konerko was sixth that same year; Lee has a Silver Slugger award, Konerko has a ALCS MVP trophy.
Both players have a world series ring; Lee in 2003, Konerko in 2005.
Lee has a career OPS+ of 123; Konerko, 116, but Paul has slightly more HR (318 vs. 280) and RBI (1026 vs. 900). Lee steals a lot more bases (100 vs. 7) and strikes out a lot more (1345 vs. 956). Lee's wOBA is exactly .010 points higher than that of Konerko's, but the former's BaBIP is .040 points higher than the latter's. Paul hits fly balls over 50% of the time; Lee, however, hits the ground ball nearly as much. Paul hits into more GIDP than all but 6 of his peers; Derrek is 29th on this same active list. Paul is about to crack the all-time top 100 HR hitters list; Derrek is 148th on this same career list.
In the playoffs, both have appeared in 5 series, with the Cub in 103 PAs vs. Sox 79 PAs. Lee's power seems to escape him in the playoffs (dropping .188 in the post-season), whereas Konerko's is raised by .002 points, and is .167 better than Lee's overall.
As for fielding, the two's percentage could not be closer - .995 for Paul, .994 for Derrek. Derrek's UZR/150 is -0.2, Paul's is -1.0. Derrek has nearly 600 more putouts at 1B. Derrek's range and errors above average are better than Paul's.
Lee's career WARP is significantly higher than Konerko's: 48.2 vs. 28.9. Finally, WAR for the two: 28.3 (Lee) vs. 17.4 (Konerko). FanGraph's converted WAR into dollars values Lee's performance as over $35M higher than Konerko's.
A few of my thoughts:
I do not know of two professional ball players that could be more similar, and from the same city to boot! In fact, BR has their "Most Similar" as being each other. These two guys hit for power, play good (if not sometimes over-valued defense, at least in Lee's case) defense, have won World Series, and are proven leaders on their respective teams.
For those BCBers that cried out last year about Lee's GIDP-ing, it could be worse. Lee doesn't hit into double plays nearly as much as Pauly. Derrek fails to hit for much power, or to drive in runs, during the playoffs. Konerko's performance during the post-season is as solid as his regular season performance. Lee seems to really benefit from his speed; his stolen bases total is much higher, his BaBIP is significantly higher (.40!), and he hits for more doubles and scores more runs. Lee's speed also seems advantageous to his fielding, where he performs better defensively and covers more ground, while making fewer errors in more put outs. Konerko is the typical power hitter; he hits the majority of his balls in the air, and is well situated in the 4 or 5 spot in any lineup.
If I must choose, I select Lee. Statistics show (although by tiny margins in some cases) that Lee is a more valuable player (WARP, WAR, UZR, OPS+, wOBA, BaBIP all show this). Qualitatively, I think both players are leaders, represent their team well, and are excellent baseball players. I wouldn't have a problem with Konerko.
Dan
PS - My roommate Chad will read this, and he sucks. You can tell him this, too. Go Cubs.
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/8/5/979010/separated-at-birth-derrek-lee-paul
SouthSideSox is a community driven site. As such, users are able to express their thoughts and opinions in a FanPost, such as this one, which represents the views of this particular fan, but not necessarily the entire community or SouthSideSox editors.
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frank thomas and jeff bagwell were even more similar
same birthday and everything
" Do you guys know people like you are the reason I wouldn’t come on for exstended periods of time. You rui the baseball blogging expieriance."
by trademaker on May 30, 2009 10:31 PM PDT
It's all in the game, yo.
I’m just a gangster, I ’spose.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
by dtpollitt on Aug 7, 2009 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
rofl
U-God is actually white althought I ‘spose it’s hard to tell. =X
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
i noticed a year or 2 ago how similar those 2 players are.
it’s definitely close. i suppose an argument could be made either way, which is more than i can say for my friends who were telling me that they’d rather have dlee over pujols just a few years ago. that was just sad.
Cashing checks and having sex.
haha, that's pathetic
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Time out Greenbay. Tell that fucking bullshit to the tourists
by onlysoxfaninboston on Aug 7, 2009 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed!
Every Cub fan on earth said that, well almost every Cub fan I knew.
I laughed at them.
"My heart has always been in Miami and so I'm truly excited to call myself a Dolphin once again."-Jason Taylor 05-13-09
''If they don't like it when Wise comes to hit, turn the TV off, turn the radio off or turn around and start walking toward the concession stand,'' -Ozzie Guillen 6-3-09
Another sign of intelligence from the Northside.
I suppose at least its a plus that your friends are in the 10% of Cubs fans who know who Pujols is.
…Or what baseball is for that matter.
"Yeah I sucked on purpose while I played for the Rockies. I just wanted out of Colorado. Go Sox."
- Scotty Pods.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 7, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I have this argument with a douchebag cub fan friend and we agree that career-wise they are very close.
but the only thing giving Lee the slight boost is his crazy good 05 season, and I’ve already decided we have to drop that year from consideration since it was aided by the stash of juiceboxes that sammy left behind (and this fact is clearly irrefutable).
Park effects suggest that The Cell is much, much more prome to being a juicebox than that of Wrigley.
http://www.bleedcubbieblue.com/2009/8/5/979010/separated-at-birth-derrek-lee-paul#19297390
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
And is there any reason to believe
PK couldn’t/wasn’t? Speculation is exactly that.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
You are a fucker.
A fucking fucker. Our Captain? Roiding?
You, sir, may turn in your SSS card at the fucking door.
We’re a pack of a-holes. And my tradition of contributing absolutely nothing to this site... continues.
I have reasons
to speculate who may or may not . . . from those much closer than any of us here. And if everyone here thinks that players all over the league were using performance enhancers, except for the White Sox . . . well, that just might be slightly naive.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."
Discuss your reasons
so that we may be enlightened.
We’re a pack of a-holes. And my tradition of contributing absolutely nothing to this site... continues.
Balding, drop in HR production after 2003, how he squirms when he sits down...
I mean all the tell tale signs. ;)
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
we agree on this issue.
I don’t believe our Sox are as squeaky clean as they lead us to believe… Esp Thome and his “country power”…
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
easy there
JC is one of the most intelligent posters on this board.
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
And one could argue that PK's 2005 was something to write home about....
When life gives you lemons, just say "Fuck the lemons," and bail.
by homesickalien on Aug 7, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
The only thing that Lee has going for him...
We usually wait until July for Paulie to put up good numbers, except this year and ’05.
"My heart has always been in Miami and so I'm truly excited to call myself a Dolphin once again."-Jason Taylor 05-13-09
''If they don't like it when Wise comes to hit, turn the TV off, turn the radio off or turn around and start walking toward the concession stand,'' -Ozzie Guillen 6-3-09
I wonder if Lee would have even better stats had he enjoyed the Cell for so many seasons
Based on the all-truthful eye test, Lee isn’t that much better of a defender, and at times it looks like he completely loses his power. Still, if you switched the two over the past 9 seasons, how much really changes for the Sox?
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
Lee’s UZR suggests otherwise. He is much quicker, and gets to more balls hit his way than Paul, while still making less errors.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
and wrigley isn't a band box?
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
That was well-reasoned for a Cub fan.
I’d still take PK, but only for sentimental reasons. As you’ve shown, couldn’t go wrong with either.
"Baseball is like church. Many attend, few understand."
— Leo Durocher
captain wins with leadership
i'll delete your SSS existence in a second. there is nothing that allows SSS posters, at any one moment, to keep posting, but the mere pleasure of larry.
-larry
I get the feeling most fans will choose their respective player. As Chi said above, for a lot of us, PK has sentimentally been 'our guy' for the past decade.
With numbers so comparable, with a slight edge for Paulie in terms of HRs and RBI (stats I find to be far more important than SBs), I’d prefer PK’s slow ass any day of the week.
When life gives you lemons, just say "Fuck the lemons," and bail.
I agree
They are very close stats wise.
"My heart has always been in Miami and so I'm truly excited to call myself a Dolphin once again."-Jason Taylor 05-13-09
''If they don't like it when Wise comes to hit, turn the TV off, turn the radio off or turn around and start walking toward the concession stand,'' -Ozzie Guillen 6-3-09
Also, I have to say I'm disappointed by this reasoned, logical Cubs fan
The last time a BCB regular posted here, he begged larry to not post his name and address.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 7, 2009 12:00 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
personally, i'd rather have derrek lee.
i know, i know, it’s blasphemy, but i think the speed and defense add enough to make him the more desirable player. his presence at 1B had a lot to do, in my opinion, with aramis ramirez’s improvement at third. he’s a huge target over there and has saved countless errant throws. plus, paulie has always frustrated me with his eeyore body language when he’s slumping. it’s annoying. and he’s white. i hate white people.
Cashing checks and having sex.
Well, I agree with the choice.
Not the racism. Spaghetti bender that you are.
We’re a pack of a-holes. And my tradition of contributing absolutely nothing to this site... continues.
Half Eggplant.
Obama white.
We’re a pack of a-holes. And my tradition of contributing absolutely nothing to this site... continues.
And once a month on a Sunday, you're part-Jewish for about 10 minutes!
When life gives you lemons, just say "Fuck the lemons," and bail.
by homesickalien on Aug 7, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, she does.
She’s mentioned in my will.
We’re a pack of a-holes. And my tradition of contributing absolutely nothing to this site... continues.
the motherfucker can be annoying at times
no doubt about that.
but since i’ve agreed to bury the hatchet with kong recently, i still have his back on this one…
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Time out Greenbay. Tell that fucking bullshit to the tourists
by onlysoxfaninboston on Aug 7, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd rather have Pauli
Is much more clutch than Lee and has many solid seasons under his belt while Lee is a little more spotty. pauli all the way. He is our team captain anyways. This article was more towards cubs fans than everything else
Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto
Paul Konerko is the much better player. As you said many of the important stats are the ones that Konerko leads in. RBI’s are not as close as you say. Konerko has over 100 RBI’s more and has close to 400 less strikeouts. Konerko may not have the same trophies as Lee but Konerko is much much better than Lee is.
Floyd Watch for 2009: 5-5; 76 K's; 4.45 ERA; 1.36 WHIP
by ChiSox Fan Forever on Aug 7, 2009 11:45 PM CDT reply actions
Ahhh, because RBI are the statistics that separate the boys from the men.
Also, it is redundant to say RBI’s. RBI stands for Runs Batted In.
"The riches of the game are in the thrills, not the money." --Ernie Banks
you're just bitching because the cubs gave up (overrated rbi machine) joe carter ;)
i had the same opinion, that the hr and rbi differences aren’t that ‘slight’. whatever, bottom line to me is whether lee’s upper hand in fielding and speed balances out paulie’s clutch in post-season, and total counts in the gaudy stats. it probably does balance out. because i’m not one to mess with fate, i say the cubs should be happy they have lee and the sox should be happy they have paulie.
so how about frank thomas vs mark grace??
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Time out Greenbay. Tell that fucking bullshit to the tourists
by onlysoxfaninboston on Aug 8, 2009 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
How about Milton Bradley vs Scott Linebrink?
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 8, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions
bradley in a heartbeat
yeah he sucked this year, but fuck the asshole bleacher bums
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Time out Greenbay. Tell that fucking bullshit to the tourists
by onlysoxfaninboston on Aug 8, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Cub fan Dan
as I stated in your cub poist paul Konerko is two times the player, the man, and potential hall of famer than that lame often broken down D Lee. I bet he on disabled list next April and May again as usual
only lawyers should care for grammar are you one?
shouldn't english teachers care about grammar as well?
" Do you guys know people like you are the reason I wouldn’t come on for exstended periods of time. You rui the baseball blogging expieriance."
by trademaker on May 30, 2009 10:31 PM PDT
gone fishing?
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Very similar to the post I drafted...
Hee-seop Choi vs. Ross Gload.
Maybe I’ll finish it and cross-post it to prove that fans are loyal to their teams, but that seems like something a Cub fan would do.
Yes! Hell Yes!
by steveinlouisville on Aug 9, 2009 9:56 AM CDT reply actions
Ross Gload is twice the man that Hee-seop Choi is.
nuff sed.
"you should go back to your cowardly practice of offering no opinion of your own."
-picktoclick
by Where Triples Go to Die on Aug 15, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions

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