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Ozzie Guillen is not a fan of the DH, Productive Offenses

by Mitch. from our epic MS Paint thread

Have you ever been to a restaurant where some little brat ruined the evening for an entire dining room, throwing food, screaming and generally being ignored by his parent(s)? You initially focus an intense rage towards the kid. "If he wasn't here, I could just enjoy my meal in peace," you think. But after witnessing a few moments of neglect by indifferent parent(s), you realize it's not really the kid's fault. He doesn't know any better. He's just a kid whose parents are oblivious, beaten down, or some combination of both.

That's how I feel today. 

I want to channel all of my anger towards Ozzie Guillen, who ultimately had the final say as to whether Jim Thome would be back on the South Side, but in reality it's Guillen's metaphorical parents who bear much of the responsibility for this situation. (Don't worry I'll get to Ozzie later)

Kenny Williams is the General Manager of White Sox. Among other things, it's his job to provide Ozzie with the best possible team he can while working under the budget provided. Back in '04-'05, when I could still get fired up about the 25th man on the roster, I couldn't stand to see Timo Perez on the roster. "If he's on the roster, he's in danger of being used," I used to say. When Williams decided to hire Ozzie, it became part of his job description to protect Ozzie from himself, to keep the ineffective-yet-grindy, effort-over-talent guys to a minimum.

You don't let a 4-year old play with kerosene and matches, and you don't let Ozzie Guillen design your offense. Both end in nothing but pain.

Williams' deflection to Ozzie, his insistence that Ozzie have the final say on the bass-ackwards DH situation, has to rank up there with the, the Todd Ritchie Deal, Foulke-for-Koch, and Swisher-for-Goggles as ill-conceived from the outset deals which will no-doubt immediately be rationalized by the local media.

It's been reported that KW along with the man signing the checks, Jerry Reinsdorf, both wanted Thome back. Yet, they still found a way to defer to their sub-ordinate. There's a large part of me that wants to write in big bold letters: Hey, KW! Grow a Pair! You're the guy who built this city's first World Series winner in 88 years. You've got the hammer. Use it. But in a way, having the guts to turn over the decision making process to Ozzie takes a huge pair. A huge pair, and maybe a heaping helping of hubris.

Hubris because the White Sox can win the division next year without Thome. Williams showed he has some of the biggest balls in the game when he reconstructed the team last summer. With the addition of a full-season of Jake Peavy to the Buehrle-Danks-Floyd trio, the Sox now own a rotation that can go toe-to-toe with basically any team in baseball. (Plus, I'm a big fan of their 6th starter, Daniel Hudson, who I see as a near-average starter this year) Unfortunately, they still might not have enough offense to make it work.

Star-divide

Let's take a look at the additions to the team since start of last season, and let's throw in the left-handers to make a point.

New Offense?

3-yr OBP 3-yr BB%
Alex Rios .330 6.7
Mark Teahen .330 7.6
Juan Pierre .339 5.2
Omar Vizquel .301 7.6
Andruw Jones .304 11.6
AJ Pierzynski .317 4.2
Mark Kotsay .315 7.6

The White Sox had a .329 OBP as a team last season in a league where average was .336. The lack of guys who got on base was one of their weaknesses last season. So what has Kenny done but gone and added three regulars who have essentially average on-base skills, none of whom get their via the walk all that often. Mark Teahen leads the lefties in OBP at an incredible .330, and is tied with Kotsay in walk-rate at 7.6%. Rios, Teahen and Jones strike out a ton to go along with their lowish OBPs, and only Jones offers real plus power. Though he's had all of one good half-season in his last three. These guys all share the same skill... Throw in Alexei Ramirez and you've got a whole club of hackers without big power.

No longer are the Sox a one-dimensional homerun hitting team; they're one-dimensional in a completely different way now. Unfortunately, that dimension does not put it on the board, Yes! Swinging at virtually everything and generating little power might work if you had a bunch of guys who knew how to find their way on base, but with this crowd, it's going to be a long summer of hoping for breakout seasons from Beckham, and Ramirez and for Quentin and Teahen to regain the strokes from their respective breakout campaigns. 

* * * * *

I feel like I should qualify my position on the DH-by-committee and Ozzie in general before continuing any further. 

You could see the Sox move to a "more athletic" DH coming from a mile away. As soon as Thome was sent to the Dodgers, I was busy constructing a somewhat DH-less lineup in my head. e-Gus can back me up on this from our conversation prior to Teehen's, I was all for going in a a more Angels-like direction. The key was in getting 10, not 9, starting-capable regulars, with a few of them having some positional flexibility. Anything less than 10 starting-capable players meant you would, more often than not, be swapping in a bench bat for whoever was playing DH on that day. 

You can win without a DH in the AL, but you need good pitching (which the Sox had/have), good defense (they're probably better than last year, but had only one way to go), and an abundance of above-average bats. Unfortunately, all of the Sox additions have been of the usually average (Teahen, Rios, and Pierre) and average-at-best (Jones, Kotsay) variety.

Even more unfortunate is the average-at-best category has essentially been handed full-time DH duties. The addition of Thome wasn't some type of zero-sum game to the White Sox bottom line, even if it might have been for Jones and Kotsay's at-bats. I'll wait for Colin to crunch the numbers, but there isn't any debating that Thome is a better run-producer than even a platoon of Jones/Kotsay. And there's no debating that the Sox would be a stronger team with them being ready to step in to prevent a collapse should one of the real 9 starters go down. As it is now, the Sox are essentially playing a man down, as they did in the final month of the season without Thome last year.

Ozzie's "All The Pieces Are In Place" Moment

Back in the day, Dave Wannstedt, then the embattled Bears head coach, told reporters "All the pieces were in place" for a Super Bowl run. He had finally been allowed to make the Bears over in his own image, including the unjust jettisoning of Kevin Butler who had to "compete" for his job as place kicker with undrafted (and woefully ineffective) free agent Carlos Huerta. Butler was the last remaining Bear from the Super Bowl and consequently the last remaining connection to the Legend of Ditka, a shadow Wanny had desperately been trying to crawl out from under. Huerta would famously flop, missing a FG in all three of his games before being cut. But the damage was done.

Wanny had, in an attempt to make the Bears his team, made them weaker in a way that was completely obvious to anyone not named Wannstedt. It was (arguably) the moment he signed his ticket out of town, although it would take another couple of years for the axe to fall.

So here's Ozzie, a manager by title, who famously argued for hours with Kenny Williams during his initial interview for the job. It's no secret to anyone that he has a desire to make a team in his own offensive image (need I remind you that image is not that good even for a shortstop?) But what Ozzie has lacked in new-school sabermetric acumen, he has made up for with a deft touch with his pitching staff and an affable demeanor that deflects attention from his struggling players. On the whole, he's been one of the better managers in baseball during his tenure. 

But making personnel decisions is not, and should not be, Ozzie Guillen's job. Ozzie is largely responsible for the Sox tendency towards a 13 man pitching staff, a tendency that removes innings from better relievers and gives them to the worst pitchers on the staff. In many ways the DH decision is much the same, only worse.

Thanks to Ozzie the Sox have decided to forgo resigning one of their best bats last season because of the desire to get more at-bats for the entirely mediocre (and nearly aged as Thome) bench guys. And unlike the bullpen scenario, these guys are going to be counted on to play every day, and there isn't any fall-back option. It's sink or swim with the (former) bench guys. More than likely, sink.

Adding insult to non-signing, Minnesota is rumored to be interested in Thome. So the Sox could lose one of their best players, play without a DH, give also-rans the DH duty, and watch Thome sign with their biggest rival. Every turn you take looking at this non-signing just makes it worse.

Ozzie has been insulated against much local criticism because of his personality and his other assets as a manager. But after this latest decision, I know of at least one blogger who will be out for blood when the Sox offense predictably struggles. This non-move is nothing but an I Can Make A Team In My Own Image ego trip, and I, for one, could do with less ego and more smart decisions coming from the White Sox brass.

Special thanks to all 500 of you who have become fans on Facebook. You can also follow me on twitter @SouthSideCheat and larry @southsidelarry

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Amen.

Thank you for validating my rage.

by expatnyc on Jan 25, 2010 11:55 PM CST reply actions  

Wow

That would be call guided rage. Well done.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 12:02 AM CST reply actions  

oh for god sake.

i’ve been saying the same shit for 2 months and all you do is rip me…. but the holy one finally takes a stand and you applaud him???? come on now. quit bowing down to the man.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 1:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Only two months?

The difference is the basis for your statements was built on speculation and bias against Ozzie. Cheat’s is based on fact and statistical analysis

It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted

by Scotty Ballgame on Jan 26, 2010 7:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Bingo.

"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"

by RWShow on Jan 26, 2010 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

how is this not green, i feel sorry for kenwo's daughter

wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance

by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 26, 2010 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

The man just welcomed a daughter into the world

and probably has slept an hour in 2 days. Cut him some large slack. I got KenWo’s back on this one.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 8:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I rec'd jimmy's... Felt weird wanting to rec something Kenwo said, so I went with the rec-by-association.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 9:40 PM CST up reply actions  

and if you need statistical analysis

to know that jim thome is better than mark kotsay…. you aren’t much of a baseball fan.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

amen to that.

Cashing checks and having sex.

by MarketMaker on Jan 26, 2010 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

What part of guided rage don't you get?

Just saying someone is an idiot for 8 months is not the same thing. Did you actually READ the piece? Go be a dad.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 7:40 AM CST up reply actions  

he is an idiot.

and you are an idiot. now you are questioning him? Personally I think you are a follower.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

I personally don't give a shit what you think

He’s not an idiot he’s just wrong. He does some things well and some things bad. I said from the beginning that them not signing a DH wouldn’t surprise me because Ozzie was pretty vocal about it. Where you and I disagree genius is the effect of such said decision.

You think life as we know it is over. I think several different outcomes are possible. Most of your rants are tolerable because I think you have conviction and are a funny guy. But you REALLY don’t want to get into the calling someone an idiot discussion.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

oh come on i take a beating every day on this site.

and come back for more…. you get called an idiot once and you get all pissy…. i had threads written about my philosophies before i knew this site existed! Man up! Admit I was right!

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

yes, this is true, we have larry to thank for that

wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance

by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 26, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

The thing is

If he signed Thome, you would still be bitching. You aren’t bitching about this decision, you are bitching because you hate Ozzie Guillen. Regardless what happened here, you would still be complaining.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 8:40 AM CST up reply actions  

thats false

no i don’t like ozzie… but I have been calling this move for 2 months now. Everyone kept saying "its before the winter meetings, its only december, its still january, soxfest hasn’t began….. TODAY WE SPELL VINDICATION……. K E N W O

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

rec'd for the girafkee

"It is obvious the Patriots souls are on lease - any day now Satan will rise up to New England - kick Tom Brady, Kevin Garnett, and David Ortiz in their luck filled testicles - and turn that area into his personal vacation home here on earth.-Rzayo 24, week one.

"Everybody in that room should be embarrassed. If they’re not embarrassed, they got the wrong job or they’re stealing money from baseball."-Ozzie Guillen 8/28/09

by rangerjae on Jan 26, 2010 10:04 AM CST up reply actions  

A very well written piece indeed.

Well articulated frustration.

"I can't give you a dollar if I don't have fifty cents." - Kenny Williams

by Servant2LordBeckham on Jan 26, 2010 12:11 AM CST reply actions  

I just don't see how anyone can think Jones/Kotsay is a starting caliber player

In retrospect, it’s been a bad offseason for the Sox:

Good Moves:
1) Re-signing Castro

Bad Moves:
1) Teahen acquisition (gave up money to not get any better)
2) Pierre acquisition (paying money to a bad hitter to take a lot of at-bats)
3) Jones/Kotsay/Vizquel elevated to at least one starters worth of at-bats, maybe more.

No one move is as bad as the Swisher trade, but they add up. They Sox have squandered resources in paying Teahen/Pierre/Kotsay/Vizquel that could have been used to probably acquire a good player.

by hitlesswonder on Jan 26, 2010 12:16 AM CST reply actions  

JJ Putz signing didnt do it for ya?

Packers done...now 3 months of sports hell.

by OznCoop on Jan 26, 2010 8:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Why was re-signing Castro a good move?

He was horrible last year. And I don’t care if he did the catch the perfect game. I’m glad Wise is gone too and he had arguably more to do with it.

Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game last year in 2008.

by NorthSidePaulie on Jan 26, 2010 10:19 AM CST up reply actions  

This has been gone over several times.

He’s a viable backup to a catcher who doesn’t sit much. Flowers gets to play everyday and you save lots and lots of cash long term. And Im a big Flowers fan.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

My dad was born and raised near Marquette Park

I however was born in Wisconsin and have lived on the north side of Chicago since 1981.

Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game last year in 2008.

by NorthSidePaulie on Jan 26, 2010 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

because Miguel Olivo wasnt available?

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Only .643 OPS with the Sox

but that’s better than I expected and I get the point re: Flowers.

That said, sorry I missed the discussion when this was discussed (apparently multiple times, so I’m not a diligent enough reader here). And the .263 BA/RISP isn’t terrible for your backup catcher either I suppose, but it seemed like every time I took notice of a clutch situation with Castro at the plate, I saw Fail. Might be because we needed more from him on “bad lineup Sunday”.

Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game last year in 2008.

by NorthSidePaulie on Jan 26, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I do recall that conversation at the bar

I dont recall being that confident that the Sox would execute it all that effectively however.

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 12:21 AM CST up reply actions  

has anyone else weighed in yet?

i’ve never heard of that trib writer. but it was a pretty good piece.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 1:03 AM CST up reply actions  

beat writer for da bears

wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance

by onlysoxfaninboston on Jan 26, 2010 1:22 PM CST up reply actions  

The comments section on Haugh's column were awful

People complaining about Thome striking out too much, clogging up the bases, can’t play defense, etc. are getting pretty lame. Does anyone think that the Diamondbacks would want to give up Mark Reynolds because he strikes out 200 times a year? I’ll take his 40+hrs and 100+rbis any day. I’d also take Thome and 25-30 hrs, 90+rbi and 125+ strike outs any time over fat Andruw Jones and inept Mark Kotsay any day. Let us all pray we don’t need a clutch home run in another game 163 this year

by MS22 on Jan 26, 2010 2:15 AM CST up reply actions  

word.

you guys, oh my god you guys

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 12:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Is this Rahm Emanuel?

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I'll green to that.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected."
~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

very good

and i obviously agree 1,000%

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 1:01 AM CST reply actions  

bukkake +1

i knew you had it in you.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 1:04 AM CST reply actions  

On the scale of SSSer baseball knowledge, I realize I'm a dunce

So all I’ll say is this: Beyond the production and theories and RISPOPSSMALLBALL, I’ll just dearly fucking miss seeing the classiest player in the major leagues wearing our colors. He’s the only Cleveland Indian I ever rooted for while wearing an Indians uniform, and I always kinda hoped he would just somehow end up playing in New Comiskey even though I figured he’d be an Indian for life. I’m sorry he’s leaving town without a ring, and even if the White Sox somehow bench their way to the World Series again this year, a big part of me will be sad he won’t be there.

That’s probably stupid but fuck it, I don’t care. Most disappointed I’ve been since Robin left town and lured me into the mental torture that is rooting for the Mets.

signature

by billyok on Jan 26, 2010 1:07 AM CST reply actions  

What about Albert Belle?

I agree with this post on a sentimental value. While it’s his bat I’ll miss the most, classy Jim was one of my mostest favoritest player in a long time. The one guy who hit homers I would say never juiced.

That and when Mark Kotsay and Andruw Jones are being mentioned as better than other players on your 25, you’re going to struggle to win ballgames. Can’t wait for when we average less than 4 runs through late April and people blaming it on the cold weather. I never got that excuse.

Praise Him!!

by Hawk is God on Jan 26, 2010 2:04 AM CST up reply actions  

no

but Thome would surprise me more

Praise Him!!

by Hawk is God on Jan 26, 2010 3:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Thome never juiced? Then who the fuck is this guy???

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

.

"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik

He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST

by U-God on Jan 26, 2010 4:24 PM CST up reply actions  

arms still look the same size.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions  

MILK IS FOR BABIES AND OLD PEOPLE!

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:33 PM CST up reply actions  

that won't happen this year

because we got rid of all the guys with balky backs. WHICH THE COLD REALLY AFFECTS.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

im not counting on mark fucking kotsay....

give me a break.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:50 PM CST up reply actions  

no, vizquel will DH during april and may.

;)

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:55 PM CST up reply actions  

As larry previously stated, we are beating a dead horse over vizquel DHing.

“I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…”

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 25, 2010 5:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Jan 26, 2010 5:37 PM CST up reply actions  

good work

but you failed to detect sarcasm.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 7:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I just didn't give you credit

Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death

by Hazymania on Jan 26, 2010 11:52 PM CST up reply actions  

i would have been counting on thome and crede.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

same here

not to mention the fact that opposing teams were scared shitless when he came walking to the dish with a couple on base. Even if he didn’t pull through, it was fun watching that at-bat. He added an entertainment value for me, which has nothing to do with winning games.

This whole thing saddens me. I said it before, I don’t know what to think if he signs with the Twins.

by jimmyjr on Jan 26, 2010 9:45 AM CST up reply actions  

well at least the pressure's on

if this blows up in their faces, maybe we won’t have to deal with the bullshit anymore.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 1:49 AM CST reply actions  

How many times has a Chicago fan said that?

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2010 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Tut mir leid, aber nicht weh

All this anguish over a 40yr old DH.

Frank Thomas’ final season wasn’t very pretty IIRC. He had foot injuries or something, so the Blue Jays felt that whatever statistical OBP benefit he ostensibly brought to the offense was offset by his complete immobility on the basepaths. Thome has the plantar thing going too, so a slow man is probably going to get even slower. I got pretty tired of watching him hobble around the bases and get tossed out by 50 feet whenever they sent him home from 2B.

Not that I think a DH by committee is the way to go, but it’s not like Thome is Albert Pujols. The Sox want to shake up the offense and give it a different character, so no Thome or JD. Hey, whatever – it’s their team.

No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.

by ChicagoPete on Jan 26, 2010 6:06 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

it didn't have to be Thome though... he was the best option left.

It could have been Thome, Vlad, Matsui, Huff…. it still could be Delgado or Dye. I’m sure I am missing a few. Any of said players would be better options than what we are going to have out there….. take into account Quentin’s tendency for injury and you have a possible lineup with both Jones and Kotsay in it every day.

Now off to the hospital to bring my daughter home. Why i let this bother me I don’t know. When my brother text’ed me “ozzie passes on thome” i yelled in the hospital room.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 6:43 AM CST up reply actions  

This is actually a good point

I didn’t want Thome until all of those other options dried up.

by Q!'s Qrew on Jan 26, 2010 12:45 PM CST up reply actions  

More like the cash he would have been owed.

He started off slow the previous year too.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I think something like that weighed into the decision

Who wants to be the person who cuts a Hall of Famer?

Given his popularity, if you sign him and he gets off to a bad start, can’t run, etc how do you cut him? Can you bench him?

They saw him play every day and know better than anyone else what his health is. They probably wouldn’t come right out and say because it’ll hurt his market value, but I’m sure that weighed in heavily with the decision not to sign him.

That’s the argument I see about not signing Thome. Now, the logic behind a DH by committee escapes me.

No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.

by ChicagoPete on Jan 26, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

that concern seems rather overblown to me.

i see little reason to think that a guy who OPSed .850 last year and has been essentially healthy both recently and throughout his career will have an inordinately high likelihood of either sucking too much or becoming too injured. at any rate, if it’s the latter, there’s this place called the DL.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Answer my kool aid question above

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

seconded

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

you're good already

andruw projection. and if you and wyers are both shitting on the kotsay/jones possibility (like, worse than replacement level), then i should maybe revise my thoughts on the matter. or at least stop assuming that just because KW signs these guys means they’re actual major leaguers.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

They have uniforms. They have contracts. They have 1/3 positions.

They are actual major leaguers. And you’re not.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

my assessment is probably skewed by the "it's more likely to be below expecations than above"

and those expectations aren’t much above replacement level.

i don’t know how many times i’ve mentioned this on here in one context or another but i don’t like guys with extensive back problems. and i’m not talking jim thome ‘my back tightens up sometimes’ problems. i’m talking joe crede ‘i have back problems which have required multiple surgeries’ problems. and that’s kotsay. and jones has sucked way too much. this could be KC DH bad.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

so when can we expect de Aza to be up?

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions  

a back "tightening" up is not normal.

if you are getting muscle spasms, you need physical therapy or pilates. It means your core is weak, therefore an extensive amount of burden is put on your back to support your spine. Thome already had an off-season back strengthening program he was on so i doubt it was a case of “but muh back tightens up sumtimes”. Add cold weather into the equation and you are looking at another slow start, benching, and eventually humiliation. Thome deserves better than that.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

weak core.

that certainly is one attribute i’d ascribe to jim thome.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 4:46 PM CST up reply actions  

too many iced cream cones.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:56 PM CST up reply actions  

MOTHERFUCKING WRECK PETE!!!!!!!

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Who is this David Haugh, and can we has more plz?

Also, nice post Cheat. No wonder Kenny GM’s kid got in trouble.

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 6:13 AM CST via mobile reply actions   2 recs

That's because you're smart.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

jerk store!

Cashing checks and having sex.

by MarketMaker on Jan 26, 2010 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

So...what's the reference?

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 8:12 PM CST up reply actions  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 8:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks.

And a very good reference. And I’m not smart.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 8:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Aw, keep your chin up.

You’ll get there someday.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 8:54 PM CST up reply actions  

/Jim shakes head to the rest of us.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 9:11 PM CST up reply actions  

A veteran. And must be respected.

YPOS.

I couldn’t figure it out yesterday, but it came to me at 4am. Then I understood the FOGhat, laughed so hard I farted, and went back to bed.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 9:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Of course, of course, that too that too...

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 9:35 PM CST up reply actions  

That comment is outstanding.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 7:59 AM CST up reply actions  

I still think this team is better than last year

Teahen is an upgrade over Fields
Beckham is better than Getz
Rios is better than DeWayne Wise

and in the “leadoff position” Pierre is better than Wise.

I still think there’s a better than decent possibility that Jones has a productive year.

Thome is a known quantity. You know what you’re going to get and you eliminate one question mark from the lineup.

Of course, this whole decision making process was handled in true White Sox fashion…..which is embarassing.

by 67WMAQ on Jan 26, 2010 6:16 AM CST reply actions  

what is a decent possibility?

25%? since he has been shit the last 3 years I don’t see how you can go higher than that…. and that is too high.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 6:45 AM CST up reply actions  

He got off to a good start last year

Small sample size and so on – but it tells me he’s still got it in him.

Believe me – I’d rather have Thome.

by 67WMAQ on Jan 26, 2010 6:56 AM CST up reply actions  

And he had an awful second half

It’s not impossible that he could have a decent year, but it’s highly improbable. He’s had over 1000 ABs since he was good and last year clearly had problems making contact.

I guess optimism for Jones is based on the fact that he once was an all-star, but that’s a player from a while ago not the guy who has been around the last 3 years.

by hitlesswonder on Jan 26, 2010 8:34 AM CST up reply actions  

explanation.

Packers done...now 3 months of sports hell.

by OznCoop on Jan 26, 2010 8:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah but he was better than the LA version

So maybe he’s somewhere in between. He still had a dreadful BABIP and his contact rate was up 3%from the previous year. If he truly is in shape perhaps he takes a step forward in his post steroid body.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

lol

Something about falling for the free boat ride.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 9:48 AM CST up reply actions  

not exclusively

i drink the shit out of some kool-aid

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Okay grounded one.

Give me your legit BEST case scenario you could see from the round one known as Mr. Jones. I understand this would be Larry drinking a tiny bit of kool aid. I am curious.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

legit?

maybe an .810 OPS, heavily weighed to the SLG. even allowing for some babip bounce, last season he was at .780 in a home park about as, or more, conducive to hitting as the cell. and was horseshit for two years prior to that. i wouldn’t call that scenario very likely, though.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 1:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah just to repeat what I felt like is still the case

Is it really that shocking that KW would give Ozzie a chance to prove it his way? Not really.
A. I don’t know if the initial battle is lost yet. Ozzie pretty much admitted that internally there is some talk about it. That’s why he didn’t flat out rule it out.
B. If they go this way. KW will have a some type of back up plan it would not extend season long
C. The chances of Jones working out is not zero and people seem to make that assumption
-——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
As to the decision making process. Oh boy.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 8:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Tend to agree with this

and hoping for C and a Plan B that brings a LH bat better than Kotsay.

Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game last year in 2008.

by NorthSidePaulie on Jan 26, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

and

Peavy > Contreras
Garcia > Colon, although Colon did pitch pretty decent for us at times.

by striker on Jan 26, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

NO ICED CREAM FOR ANYBODY SUPERSADFACE

I do think that bringing Jim back as a part-time DH was stupid too…I did start to image scenerios where Thome would come in to pinch-hit for Jones/Kotsay and then thought to myself who the fuck brings in a pinch hitter for the DH spot

It was then I realized vegans can’t be trusted

by Scotty Ballgame on Jan 26, 2010 7:17 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

this is a KW/JR decision.

ozzie made one simple request: “i don’t want a guy who can’t play the field and can’t run a lick”

OK. so that seems like a reasonable request from the guy you have entrusted to run your team. the ball is now in your court, KW.

so what does he do? he wastes $3-4mil on three old useless bums when he could spend about $5 mil on a difference maker who could dh AND play the field on occasion.

and this is ozzie’s fault?

by Hatchetm on Jan 26, 2010 7:57 AM CST reply actions  

amen,

Ozzie had an idea of what he wanted from his DH spot entering this offseason. Just a guy who could run a little and play a position if needed. Thomer sadly is not that man. I do still believe that someone will be signed to play DH before the season.

Packers done...now 3 months of sports hell.

by OznCoop on Jan 26, 2010 8:18 AM CST up reply actions  

This Cheat fellow is good when he is properly focused.

Well done.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 7:58 AM CST reply actions  

Currently arguing with my dad and uncles about this move

They are cheering dumping Thome. The phrase “clogging up the basepaths” is used without irony.

by vince_ on Jan 26, 2010 8:16 AM CST reply actions  

simpletons.

Packers done...now 3 months of sports hell.

by OznCoop on Jan 26, 2010 8:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Hey, now

That’s my family you are talking about.

by vince_ on Jan 26, 2010 8:30 AM CST up reply actions  

my family is made up of sports simpleton's,

Bears fans that cheer for the Packers and Vikings during non-Bears games. Cubs fans that take pride in 100 year lapses….I can feel for ya.

Packers done...now 3 months of sports hell.

by OznCoop on Jan 26, 2010 8:33 AM CST up reply actions  

maybe you should use the phrase

“home runs” and “on base percentage” without irony.

if that doesn’t work, just tell them to pound sand.

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Jan 26, 2010 8:31 AM CST up reply actions  

http://backporch.fanhouse.com/2010/01/25/the-dugout-thome-in-minnesota/

"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik

He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST

by U-God on Jan 26, 2010 8:23 AM CST reply actions  

man that would hurt,

but I cant blame him for signing there if he decides to.

Packers done...now 3 months of sports hell.

by OznCoop on Jan 26, 2010 8:25 AM CST up reply actions  

This was excellent, Cheat. Thanks.

And that Thome image is great, Mitch. Now gents, let’s move on. I’m still excited about this team.

by palehose67 on Jan 26, 2010 8:59 AM CST reply actions  

I'm resigned to a summer of night terrors involving the three-headed donkeygiraffe monster.

But is there any chance there’s another FA out there with some positional flexibility that that could be sold to Ozzie and be a better DH? Damon would be one, but he’s far too expensive. However, Xavier Nady seems like he could fit the bill, and although he’s RH, he’s pretty respectable against RHPs. He’s not my first choice, but he’d still be better than the abortion we’re looking at now. Or should I just stop pissing into the wind?

by ExileDC on Jan 26, 2010 9:58 AM CST reply actions  

that's an interesting possibility

i don’t think a sky is falling mentality is appropriate just yet. we’re still around 3 months from the season. a lot can change between now and then. i think kenny realizes the hole in the DH spot and i’m sure he’s going to do what he can to address it at some point. hopefully sooner rather than later.

sure thome was going to come cheap and is superior to our current options, but i think there’s still hope we’ll find an adequate dh at some point. we have to, right?

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

no i don't think so.

they are letting ozzie run with this. If they were going to bring anyone in it would have been Thome.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

i see that side of it too

KW deferring to ozzie is problematic, but there’s got to be some line drawing. thome would have been cheap, but can’t play the field, which doesn’t fit ozzie’s mandate. if the experiment is a total failure by mid may, i’d imagine kw will be proactive. what about a guy like jonny gomes? he can play the field and is better than what we currently have at DH (he’s righty, but just an example). who knows, they could bring dye back at some point. as Tdogg said, flowers could blow up and they could DH him. Trade is always a possibility.

I just think the whole, punt on the season because we don’t have a DH in place is a bit premature.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

My angst isn't a result of thinking they're going to totally suck.

The pitching alone should keep them competitive. But competitive isn’t enough for me. I’m frustrated because we might be squandering a special season and because the logic of it is so screwed up.

by ExileDC on Jan 26, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

my point

is that there’s still time to find a viable DH. spring training hasn’t even started. thome wasn’t the be all end all.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Not that much time, the options are kinda thin and getting thinner.

But the even bigger problem is this stupid principle that the DH be able to play the field and be willing to sit so they can give AB’s to the three-headed donkeygiraffe monster. It suggests they’re not really looking anymore.

by ExileDC on Jan 26, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah the DH philosophy blows

but all the angst in the world won’t change ozzie’s mind. kw really hasn’t been known to sit on his hands. i’d be surprised if he isn’t trying to find an option that manager and GM can agree upon. with the AL central coming down to game 163 × 2 it isn’t ideal, but i’m gonna give kw the benefit of the doubt. i dont’ think he lets this DH experiment carry on too far into the season if its a total trainwreck.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

who is left

that fits Ozzie’s criteria, or that won’t affect the budget? The fact is, we have a stubborn manager who somehow got the exclusive rights to add a legitimate designated hitter, and he declined.

I echo Exile’s sentiments that this could be a very special season with the pitching staff they have. I just hope I don’t see a lot of 2-1 losses to ruin it.

by jimmyjr on Jan 26, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Damon or Hudson could both work.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I would be happy with Damon

But his demands were too high I thought, even for NY. Or has Boras lowered them from 8 digits?

by jimmyjr on Jan 26, 2010 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I saw NY's latest offer was 2mm

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

if he's forced to take a 1 year, it'll be pretty cheap

but you could certainly justify a 2 year 16MM deal for him.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Very special with the addition of Thome?

I respectfully disagree. I think Colin’s post on division position players by WAR puts us a bit behind the Twins. Adding Thome wouldn’t necessarily make us clear cut favorites. A lot has to go right even with Thome to be considered legit World Series contenders.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

i still need to do pitchers

but yeah, the Sox are 3-4 wins back of the Twins. worse if Kotsay/Jones implode.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:53 PM CST up reply actions  

3-4 back

is that just based on positional WAR, or are you including an estimate for pitching as well? I’d imagine we’ve got a decent advantage in terms of pitching.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 2:57 PM CST up reply actions  

i'm kinda waiting on that

but if you look at CHONE, you’ll be disappointed. for one, there’s a lot of good pitchers in the Central. Outside of the Indians, everyone is going to have a pretty solid top 3. for two, it looks like CHONE regresses innings pretty heavily. and for good reason. it looks like about 50 starters per season reach at least 190 IP. that’s an average of 1.7 per team. the Sox have had at least 3 and average nearly 4 since 2005. the Twins haven’t had 3 since 2005.

now this really doesn’t matter all that much if the Sox top 4 throw 800 IP and the Twins’ match FIP and throw 740. that’s like an extra win or so. the difference comes if the Sox are consistently throwing out 3-5 win starters against worse than average types.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

so that's not factoring any estimate on pitching WAR

(I just checked the post). But thanks for the additional info, I didn’t realize that our advantage may not be as large as I had thought.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah I don't buy Chone when it comes to Sox starters

projection systems get Buerhle wrong anyway.
and 3 year models don’t acknowledge the hairy ball one is a different pitcher.

Im curious to see PECOTA and see ranges.

The perfect scenario would be for the top 4 to throw almost 850 innings.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

3 year systems also

take into account Danks’ pre-cutter ’07 season.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah I dont like Chone very much.

it doesnt give enough credit for young talent

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

yep forgot about that

I know it works both ways, but in this case it definitely penalizes the White Sox.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

also

i believe i read on Tango that the PECOTA ranges are crap, fwiw.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 4:14 PM CST up reply actions  

plenty

K and BB rates are fairly consistent, which is typically what makes FIP better than ERA. but of the measures, I don’t remember if, say, xFIP is better than FIP (I would guess it is) or where tRA stands. but anything that investigates performance on the basis of repeatable components is going to be pretty solid.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

What I don't get

is why everyone has to find one stat for hitting, pitching and fielding. There’s just too much to quantify and too much fluctuation. Which is why I hate it when someone assuredly points to WAR, wOBA, UZR, or FIP as argument fodder.

by Daniel Berlyn on Jan 26, 2010 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

well for one, when you throw a mash of stuff

together, a lot of stuff is just going to cancel out anyway. it doesn’t necessarily for fangraphs because they don’t regress UZR to get the same approximate stability as wOBA.

the problem really starts when folks don’t understand why FIP or what have you spits out what it does. the neat thing about those stats is that they’re denominated in runs, so you can determine the actual effects on the team’s RS/RA.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 27, 2010 12:46 AM CST up reply actions  

if you want to know why FIP is what it is

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/quick_eras/

featuring Tango, MGL, Nate Silver, David Cameron as A Kinda Confused Guy, and many more!

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 27, 2010 4:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Didnt read that

But stands to reason if your projection system does a decent job, one could draw ranges off it. Particularly if there is more in the sauce than the standard regression to the mean.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

well there's nothing to indicate that

PECOTA has been any more accurate than CHONE or whomever.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

That's not true

I haven’t seen the comparsion for last year. But PECOTA has usually done better than the other systems, especially in hitting. Pitching is of course difficult to project anyway, which is reason number 1 to focus on bats in fantasy drafts.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

from everything i can recall, there's basically no difference between

PECOTA and CHONE in terms of aggregate performance. even if it’s just looking at hitters.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 5:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Especially if you couple that would

with the diagnostics (breakout, improve, collaspe and attrition rate) with betas.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

i'd want to know more about the utility of those

diagnostics.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 5:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Twins - Sox starters, WAR

2009: – 3.5 WAR
2008: – 6
2007: – 1.8
2006: – 3.9
2005: – 1.5

That’s a ~3 win gap.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Flowers down the road or a trade

are also possibilities

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

There are still plenty of options

But if we aren’t taking Thome on the cheap, I don’t know see us taking any of the other options. It’s best to just not think about it at this point, it only leads to frustration.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 10:04 AM CST up reply actions  

there's just not enough at bats.

xavier nady is a veteran. and he must be respected.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 10:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Ask gus

Nady was a somewhat key piece to my plan… “and not because he’s good, but because he’ll be cheap and hopefully give you a near 800 OPS”

by The Cheat on Jan 26, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

"give you a near 800 OPS"

Yes, I can see Ozzie going for that…
verus the near 900 OPS Thome gives verus righties.

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 10:46 AM CST up reply actions  

you are expecting me to remember an awful lot.

that convo was well into my full 8 hour shift of drinking that night!

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I think they start the season with what they have

Thome was a possibility because he was cheap and KW/JR like him. Guys like Branyan, Nady, Damon won’t have those advantages.

Plus, Ozzie has what he wants on the roster. He doesn’t want a slugger. He wants guys that can nominally play the non-corner infield and outfield positions and rotate in the DH. He has that in Jones/Vizquel/Kotsay. They signed those guys — they aren’t going to turn around and replace one of them now.

If June rolls around, and the Sox are in contention and the DH is performing as one would expect and the offense blows I think KW will make a trade or possibly promote Flowers if he’s knocking the snot out of the ball (although there would be issues about whether Ozzie would sit a vet for Flowers).

by hitlesswonder on Jan 26, 2010 11:03 AM CST up reply actions  

me too.

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Heyman
ozzie guillen didnt want jim thome because he didn’t think he could hit lefthanders.

by Sox-35th on Jan 26, 2010 10:03 AM CST reply actions  

Well no shit.

That’s why you have Andruw Jones around.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Lets talk about your nightmare scenario

I’m talking the absolute worst possible confluence of circumstances.

If everyone plays up to expectations – the DH is the least of your problems.

If Quentin gets hurt, Rios is still lost, Pierre is killing the lineup, Teahen “looks good in a baseball uniform,” the DH is still the least of your problems.

At what point do you hit the panic button?

by 67WMAQ on Jan 26, 2010 10:24 AM CST reply actions  

Early May.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Pearly May? Early Wynn?

When the red red robin comes bob bob bobbing along?

Now we are tall, and Christmas trees are small,
and you don’t ask the time of day.
But you and I, our love will never die,
but guess who’ll cry come first of May.

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

When they lose game 163?

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

When a contender's closer gets hurt

And Jenks becomes attractive to that team.

BTW, Expectations are that our DH will be terrible, so I think if everyone plays up to expectations, the DH becomes a very big problem. It becomes our obvious black hole, that could be the difference between a world series team and a team watching the playoffs at home.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't believe I've disagreed so vehemently with a non-Linebrink-related decision that Ozzie has made.

"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"

by RWShow on Jan 26, 2010 10:39 AM CST reply actions  

Mackowiak in center field?

that was pretty bad.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Not as bad as Griffey or Pods.

I thought of those, but I hate this more. Much more.

"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"

by RWShow on Jan 26, 2010 10:52 AM CST up reply actions  

i think mackowiak was worse than griffey and pods.

he may have been the worst outfielder i have ever seen in my life. including the teams i demolished on my way to little league glory.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

In fairness, I was a lot drunker during the Mackowiak era than I was during the Griffey and Pods eras.

So I’ll meet you halfway. None of the three of them should’ve played CF for us, and all three did.

"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"

by RWShow on Jan 26, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Not offered a position not completely true

Thome was apparently offered a position when he retires – someone has to take over for Mosse or Minnie. (You never know, one bad hack and that could be this year with his ab and back issues)

"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"

by Brush Back on Jan 26, 2010 10:47 AM CST reply actions  

I never like the idea of Thome in the first place...

I’ll never forget opening day 2006 siting the seats I have been sitting in since 82’. Whenever a pitch was offered to Thome, some jackass ten rows behind me yelled “Boom!”… I’m talking every pitch. That is when i noticed the quality of fan at teh Cell was compromised following the World Series victory

I’m not pining over Rowand but I never liked Thome as our DH, sure there was some good memories there but I think it was a mistake in 2006 and I’m kind of glad he is gone.

HOWEVER, I don’t like this rotating DH bullshit. It is relying too heavily on Ozzie’s perceived ability to recognize who is hot and who matches up well.

It will be fun to see Ozzie manage this year, even if they are not even in the race because if he’s right…I’m happy. If he’s wrong, he’s been proved a fraud which I kind of think he may be.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 10:53 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

I know what you mean. I cringed at every one of those 42 home runs he hit that year.

"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"

by RWShow on Jan 26, 2010 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll admit he produced well for us

and I’m not going to argue his production. It was time for him to go and I don’t think there should have been a time for him to come.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

What specifically did you object to? If it's not his production, it's either Rowand, salary, or personality.

You said you don’t pine for Rowand, so either you personally dislike the nicest man alive, or you have an issue with what he was paid.

"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"

by RWShow on Jan 26, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions  

What bothered me that year was his OPS of 1.014

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

yeah that thome guy really held us back last year

.864 ops, pshh

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

reading comprehension fail

withdrawn

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

all thome's fault.

why couldn’t he OPS 1.500 like a real fucking man.

aren’t there approximately 22 players you would call out for that before you’d get to thome?

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

Fuck yeah

I’ll call out the whole team. Thome s gone and I’m glad. Too bad that you guys don’t like it.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

thanks. we got that part.

please endeavor to make some semblance of sense.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

It's Thome's fault Buehrle collapsed.

And that Pods and Ozuna combined for a .284 OBP from the leadoff spot in the second half. Duh.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

And that Crede's back gave out

And that Politte and Cotts crapped the bed. And Jenks faded.

Thome was a menace.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Yep

I definitley said it was all Thome’s fault. That whole team was at fault. I merely wished we never had Thome. Keep crying guys.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

yup. please backpedal away from the obvious import of your comment.

it’s fine to have a different opinion. making silly comments, however, is a great way to make that opinion lack credibility.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

See.. that's where you're wrong

Thome wasn’t at fault. That is the point they are making. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing, without actually explaining why you don’t like Jim Thome.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I didnt like the Thome trade initially either.

1. It meant no more Big Hurt.
2. He was almost as old as Frank, also had a history of injuries.

The only plus was he was a lefty.
I can admit however, that he more than proved me wrong and alleviated my concerns.

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

I can understand 1

It’s the just dislike of him after the fact though when he clearly performed well here.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Perhaps next time

I will make more sense by prescribing to the status quo of the beliefs of the rest of Soxfandom.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

no one is asking you to do that

just give a reason for why you don’t like thome, you give no reasoning for your position. all i can see is that one jackass in the stands really upset you :(

by Jack M on Jan 26, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions  

You guys

are so easy to piss off. Hahahaha!

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

What did you think I would expect

would happen? I thought my comments would be met with open arms. Maybe Thome will let you guys blow him in the locker room at Target Field.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Homosexual inferences = the pinnacle of reason

You’ve convinced me now.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

yep

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I thought that might do it for you

Maybe you guys should boycott going to the Cell this winter in defiance over the non-Thome signing

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Shouldn't you be starting shit on a World of Warcraft forum somewhere?

It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.

by SonOfCron on Jan 26, 2010 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I didnt renew my ozzie plan!

that has more to do with a baby though, and I still plan on going to at least one game a month.

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

It would be helpful

to hear what really was wrong with Thome, in your opinion, that has helped you form your opinion. Not that you are trying to convert anyone, but it does lend a level of understanding that I don’t have.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 11:57 AM CST up reply actions  

It is just time to move on

Lets not live in the past.

1) One dimensional
2) Slow
3) Aging
4) A relic of an era in baseball I highly disliked and would rather forget.
5) Indian

I’m not a big fan of the dinger, it doesn’t get me excited.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

OK.

Thanks for clarifying. The “era” wouldn’t be “steroids”, would it? Do you think he participated in that? If not, doesn’t he earn any props for that?

I agree about the aging (who ain’t?) and being one-dimensional, but perhaps we could use more of that one dimension this year. I think that’s the primary beef with this move. Who’s gonna hit? And hit far?

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

racist.

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Jan 26, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I will never - EVER understand this mentality

about not being a fan of the dinger. It’s as if it is somehow bad or wrong to score a quick freaking run. Throughout baseball history the HR has saved baseball.

This thought pattern is misguided. I think there are probable better ways of getting your point across.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

HR's are important

but when that is all you’re getting from a guy except K’s. Last year he hit in the .240’s? Let’s bring Rob Deer out of retirement shall we?

At this point in his career I’ll bet we get Larry Sheets, in his prime type, of numbers out of him.

No matter how much i hate the three-headed monster idea, I think we can get 30 RBI’s out of Vizquel, Jones and Kotsay each to equal his run production.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, we’ve been skinning the cat the wrong way the past couple years.

Embrace a different point of view for once and see how it works.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 1:07 PM CST up reply actions  

he's also pretty good at getting on base

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Then when he gets on base

he’s lucky to make it home. Of the 159 times he got a hit or a walk. he only scored 32 times when he didn’t hit a homerun.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah

its just a shame that our current DH troika won’t be getting on base anywhere near thome’s ability

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

You do realize..

You need to take out those 23 times he hit a home run if you want to use that stat.

Otherwise it makes no sense. He still scored 23 more of those 159 times. Meaning he scored a third of the time he was on base.

You can’t subtract from just one side of an equation jackass.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

And then if it doesn't work

you can start bitching and moaning about what an S.O.B. Ozzie is.

Despite being knowledgable baseball fans, stat-wise, I think Kenny and Ozzie have a good amount of baseball knowledge and don’t have to answer to anyone about not signing Thome.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

go blow ozzie you asshat.

Thome led the team in OBP last year. To opt against him for 2 bums and a reclamation project is stupid as hell… plain and simple.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

God Damn it KenWo....

It’s “Butt Fez”!!!

Drunk Tank Mace

by DrEmilioLizardo on Jan 26, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Really Rhubarb? Really?

Omar Vizquel is going to get 30 RBI’s in a part time role? When he is lucky to break 50 with 600 ABs. Give me a fucking break.

The fact you are using batting average should be enough to suggest you have no idea what you are talking about, but then you say Vizquel will get 30 RBI’s this year. If Omar Vizquel plays enough to get 30 RBI’s, the White Sox finish in last place.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I would be stunned if our DH-by-committee

gets 60 RBI’s. AJ basically gets 60 RBI’s every year. And our lovely DH should NOT be put in a high-RBI slot in the order.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

RBIs equal run production?

Comparing Thome to Deer and (not Ben) Sheets….

………….
|………..|
|………..|
|………..|
|…….O..| Here's the door...
|………..|
|………..|
|………..|

by The Cheat on Jan 26, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Thank you for taking the time to construct that door

I feel very important that you wasted your time doing that for me.

by Rhubarb on Jan 26, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Embrace a different point huh?

If you have read me at all you should at least know that I don’t go by stats alone. I like new ideas and actually have given the White Sox credit for years for understanding certain concepts that don’t show up in the box score. What you are arguing makes no sense. Its not a different point of view. Its just wrong. Let me repeat.

Its really not the player, its what he represents.

Everything in the world could break right and that doesn’t mean it was the correct decision. Much in the way that holding on 15 with a 10 showing for the dealer in blackjack and he busts out doesn’t make you a genius.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

this is dumb as hell

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

The beauty of your comment, HSA...

is that the way this thread has played out, I have no idea to what it relates! But I’m sure it’s spot on!

by palehose67 on Jan 26, 2010 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

yay!

you guys, oh my god you guys

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Ozzie needs to match up someone

without getz and wise there, he has no pieces to play with. it won’t matter who’s hot (it didn’t last year), he’ll be playing his lefty/righty matchup in the DH slot this year – hopefully instead of the field.

"ass hole thi is the same line up whit leftys you idiot"

by Brush Back on Jan 26, 2010 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

i rec'd this for the last sentence.

Thome was pretty good though.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Orlando Hudson

After being furious for days over Guillen’s non sense and talking over the different possibilities of the roster / placing blame I think a signing still needs to happen. I understand KW needs to sack up at times and just sign Thome but if Ozzie says he wont play him at all then what is the point of signing him?

Then people say Ozzie told KW to get a DH that can play the field etc. so KW should of abide since he knew Ozzie would pull the ole I’m gonna take my ball and go home if you don’t get me the exact player I want.

Really I’m indifferent about Teahen and our bench signings but getting proven vets in our lineup/bench is smart to me and is a way better start from last season. In a perfect world I’m sure there were smarter fiscal moves that could be made but end of the day this is the team we have with the budget given and the only piece missing is a DH.

Knowing what Ozzie wants I truly wonder if Orlando Hudson is a realistic signing. Type A free agent who was not offered arb makes him no risk of losing picks. I know he wants alot of money but the previous two years his salary was sub 4mm. I do not know if this was already discussed or not so my apologies if it was. Having Ohud puts Gordo back at 3b and eliminates the defensive growing pains. It also gives the sox good defense at 2b and a 350+ OBP. Then Guillen gets his wet dream of 4 OF and a rotating DH with Teahen/Rios/Q/Pierre.

Again I’m unsure how realistic actually getting Ohud would be, but it seems to fit what Ozzie wants and he is a good ball player. Now I pray the Sox are not 1 of 2 teams in on Jim Edmonds and wait.

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 11:15 AM CST reply actions   2 recs

Makes sense to me.

Although I’m not sure I think jacking around Beckham fielding-wise is a good thing.

Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game in 2008. Thanks John Danks and Jim Thome.

by NorthSidePaulie on Jan 26, 2010 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Getting O dog would prevent shifting gordon around the INF, why i like the idea. limits the defensive growing pains in 2010.

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

true.

but it would make the Teahen signing an extreme waste of money and time.

by Jack M on Jan 26, 2010 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Teahen can play RF and also take over potential DH duties with Q.

more or less a rotation of q/teahen in RF/DH. and knowing ozzie this would somehow lead to pierre getting time in CF.

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

and of course in 2011, gordo can go to 2b, teahen to 3b and the sox can have a legit DH/C type in flowers at that point

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Questions

How many rings does Jim Thome have?
“You are what your record says you are” – Bill Parcells
Was Jim Thome with the Sox in 2005?

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain

by phastphil on Jan 26, 2010 11:27 AM CST reply actions  

honestly

i’ve always found this to be the stupidest argument ever. you know who else didn’t have a ring? barry bonds. man, he sucked ass.

"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik

He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST

by U-God on Jan 26, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

what was thome's record?

oh. wait. that’s a team statistic. i guess that asshat should just play all the positions.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Timo would've.

EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine

by Sox Machine on Jan 26, 2010 11:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Ozzie had the Timo/Blum/Willie Harris rotating DH at his fingertips!

After Frank went down, I don’t know how Crazy Carl found so much time at DH?

I just mentioned 5 guys with rings, by the way. 2005: Frank Thomas’ year of validation.

by Mitch. on Jan 26, 2010 11:55 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Well, for those really PO'ed about our team,

just look at the picture of the Sox dog-piling in Houston after Uribe’s play to win the Series. Blum, Timo, Harris, et. al. twarn’t Murderer’s Row. I would bet Ozzie thinks he can replicate ’05 with similar spare parts and strong pitching, hitting be damned.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

The bench was a bench. Crazy Carl and Big Frank were DH's.

Now the bench is the DH. It’ll be great for interleague and WS games on the road, and a level playing field at home.

by Mitch. on Jan 26, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Group 5 wasn't Group DH.

There’s a big, very depressing difference.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure we didn't.

Big Hurt, Dinosaur, and others. I’m sure someone can provide us with who DH’ed in 2005 and how often.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Hot Carl DH'd 107 games

Big Hurt DH’d in 28 of them. So the vast majority went to two individuals. Harris, Timo, Blum, etc.. may have had a few shots out there but for the most part it was the big two. I imagine Dye &Konerko played a few games there too. And you have the interleague games, so for the most part, no, the bench didn’t DH.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Those two shared the bulk.

Carls Dinosaur Jr – 547 PA’s/ 135 games
Frank – 124 PAs/ 34 games

you guys, oh my god you guys

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

wow.

this is beyond the pale.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

He's at The Chicago Theatre

Friday – Sunday, doing four shows. not sure if they’re all sold out or not, bought my tickets a few weeks ago

by Jack M on Jan 26, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

saw a solid show at the grove of anaheim a couple months back

These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.

by thatshortkid on Jan 26, 2010 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Questions

How many rings does Ken Griffey Jr have?
"You are what your record says you are" – Bill Parcells
Was Adrian Gonzalez with the Sox in 2005?

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Adrian Gonzalez = Base Clogger

That’s the kind of baseball the Sox are moving away from.

by hitlesswonder on Jan 26, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

fill in whatever all star you want that was not on the team in 05

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Sweet argument

"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."

by Shoeless In SC on Jan 26, 2010 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

robert horry > karl malone

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

carl everett > ted williams

by Franchise82 on Jan 26, 2010 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

well duh

williams was an amateur paleontologist, and everyone knows that shit is fake

"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik

He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST

by U-God on Jan 26, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Jason Caffey>Charles Barkley

Trent Dilfer>Dan Marino

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2010 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

"I am a fucking idiot" -phastphil

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Did Ozzie sign up for SSS?

With like 10 user names? That has to be what happened. Is Olney playing a joke on us? Where did this flood of stupidity come from?

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 11:30 AM CST reply actions  

There is a difference between pessimistic

and stupid.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

lol

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Welcome, paul.

This is one of the best first posts ever – almost on par with kristina.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 8:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 9:13 PM CST up reply actions  

What a nasty and feisty SSS

I like it.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 11:53 AM CST reply actions  

It's good to see some discourse based upon numbers.

It’s better to see it based upon emotion. More fun and quotable.

I really don’t recall the board being this cheesed off when Thome was traded to LA.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

different circumstances

would be my guess

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I think many of us thought he'd be a no-brainer signing for cheap

in December/January.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah

i think everyone was sad to see him go, but glad to see he’d have a shot at a ring. seemed like it was implied that he would have a decent shot of returning for 2010.

when’s fantasy camp? i’m sure you’ll provide a nice in depth report. i’m considering it sometime in the future.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

It already happened this month.

Next year I’ll be there. Some other SSS’, perhaps.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 12:10 PM CST up reply actions  

ah

i thought it was around this time

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

If at the time, it was annouced that next year we'd see Jones/Kotsay instead of discounted Thome

I think cheesing off would have occurred.

Not having Thome is perfectly acceptable if you have better players instead.

by hitlesswonder on Jan 26, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly..

No one thought that trading Jim Thome meant we would see a disastrous Andruw Jones and Mark Kotsay platoon at DH. That would have caused quite the shit storm on here. Plus we all wanted to see Thome get a chance at a ring, which I guess, maybe that’s KW’s master plan. We should be happy now that he can play for the Twins, considering they already won the world series.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

DAMMIT!

Is it a NTC contract?

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

he said it was the cubs

has hendry ever signed anyone to a contract that didn’t include a NTC?

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I was curious to see if the streak was intact.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Is there any more SHIT we can pile on to the top of this day??

Is it possible??

It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.

by SonOfCron on Jan 26, 2010 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Thome to Twins

would do it

Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game in 2008. Thanks John Danks and Jim Thome.

by NorthSidePaulie on Jan 26, 2010 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

if its gonna happen i prefer it goes down now

while we’re still mourning. might as well pile it on and get it over with.

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 12:56 PM CST up reply actions  

dunno exactly

i think it originated off a bruce levine tweet or something.

by Hatchetm on Jan 26, 2010 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

eh we obviously aren't signing anyone anyway

at least Nady isn’t Jermaine. I don’t think I could have handled that.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

in happier news

since desme left the profession, tyler flowers has now cracked john sickel’s top 50 hitting prospect list

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/1/26/1270705/the-51st-man

"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik

He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST

by U-God on Jan 26, 2010 12:03 PM CST reply actions  

Last time we had 2 hitters in the top 50?

Waaa!

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

A's sign Sheets for 10M + performance bonuses

link: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/01/athletics-eyeing-sheets-or-damon.html

Didn’t think he’d get that much money, he must’ve looked good in that throwing session.

by Jack M on Jan 26, 2010 12:58 PM CST reply actions  

wow thats a lot.

10 mil guaranteed? no thanks.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

Does anyone else think pitchers are getting paid more than hitters this year?

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

you might not be making that up

http://baseballprojection.com/2010/freeagent2010.htm

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 27, 2010 12:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I was totally serious,

especially in light of Sheets getting $10MM and Jon Effing Garland getting $5.3MM.

I couldn’t figure it out yesterday, but it came to me at 4am. Then I understood the FOGhat, laughed so hard I farted, and went back to bed.

by winningugly on Jan 27, 2010 5:23 PM CST up reply actions  

garland is well worth it.

he’s going to have a fine year in san doggy dogg

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 27, 2010 6:11 PM CST up reply actions  

3/14 i think

We just need to execute better - Lovie Del Negro

by Illini0509 on Jan 26, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Clever indeed..

We don’t even know how long we’re stuck with the guy anymore.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Too bad the Sox won't talk to Boras.....

because at 4-5 million J Damon makes a ton of sense……..we know they have the money…….step up KW and shut us all up on this board.

by stanchar on Jan 26, 2010 1:44 PM CST reply actions  

Somebody asked that question at saturdays seminar.

“with the market being what it is blahblahblah johnny damon’s price may be falling is there any chance we get him”

KW response “who’s his agent”

Thats terrible business. Like Boras or not, he represents a good portion of all star players that we will never have on our team because KW doesnt like his agent? Stupid.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I always thought Reinsdorf was the guy who put the hammer on refusing to deal with Boras.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2010 4:13 PM CST up reply actions  

i thought it was williams

either way it doesn’t matter. Stupid to eliminate guys that would help your team because you are in a “whos dick is bigger” contest with an agent

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 4:14 PM CST up reply actions  

JR addressed that one too

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

middle of the pack

"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "

by Chiburb on Jan 26, 2010 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah I read this

Its not like its proved that its correct though. I’d prefer to see more work from that perspective.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Jan 26, 2010 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

However, it does give some credence to at least the thought process.

Executing it with the proper players is another thing. The Yankees can slide Posada there if they like. We don’t have a Posada to slide in there. We have the equivalent of Andy Pettite’s bat to slide in there.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Not really the same though..
Detroit has declined to bring in an additional power hitter, preferring to use their DH to give Carlos Guillen, Magglio Ordonez, and Miguel Cabrera time away from their gloves while keeping their bats in the line-up.

Guillen, Ordonez and Cabrera.. those are real baseball players, alcoholics or not. That’s quite a bit different than keeping at bats for Kotsay, Jones, Nix and Vizquel.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah.

a guy who should probably be starting ahead of either of guillen or ordonez.

by larry on Jan 26, 2010 2:16 PM CST up reply actions  

doesn't it just mean more ryan raburn?

he’s as deserving of PT as the non-Cabrera players discussed there.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

rec'd for several reasons

1) paul newman
2) I have that poster in my apartment, that scene is outstanding

by Jack M on Jan 26, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

well thank you jack

that’s what sustained me in my time of trouble

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

you don't think Nate Robertson or Dontrelle

has given Dombrowski second thoughts on his process?

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

don't forget bonderman.

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Jan 26, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

well, there's obviously decent reason not to be

he probably cost them a playoff run or two.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Jan 26, 2010 2:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Racist.

Not all Hispanics have that philosophy, Tongue Man.

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

beautiful peace cheat

If the woman is offering an opinion, you are doing it wrong. - HSA

by BoeJouma on Jan 26, 2010 2:56 PM CST reply actions  

ugh. i quit

i just…. i quit

If the woman is offering an opinion, you are doing it wrong. - HSA

by BoeJouma on Jan 26, 2010 2:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I need a stiff drink.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected."
~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 3:05 PM CST reply actions  

can we ban wtgtd after he posts what everyone knows he will post when he sees this?

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 3:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Official?

Wrigley Field is a postage stamp shithole. It reeks of piss worse than R. Kelly’s underage girlfriend. It’s falling apart faster than Amy Winehouse. Their fans are denial-addled jagoffs of lowest stripe.

by winningugly on Jan 26, 2010 3:09 PM CST up reply actions  

e-gus

you are not permitted to ban anybody… so don’t say “we”.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 5:27 PM CST up reply actions  

no

but i could delete absolutely everything you post.

WordUpThome: WILL I BE REQUIRED TO PLAY INSIDE OF THE TRASH BAGS OR SIMPLY AMONGST THEM

by e-gus on Jan 26, 2010 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

and i can click on the subject line of your post to hide it.

so there bitch.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 6:59 PM CST up reply actions  

just be glad you're not in prison

because, you know, then you wouldn’t be able to play dungeons and dragons.

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Jan 26, 2010 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

gotta love this country

a convicted murderer complaining about rights.

Killing someone = OK
Banning D&D = violation of rights

fuck me

by jimmyjr on Jan 26, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Level 5 bitch

It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.

by SonOfCron on Jan 26, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Hey, you can always look forward to Milton Bradley killing some hipster by mid-April.

Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

by Ozzie Montana on Jan 26, 2010 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

I certainly hope so. Ideally, the I'd even stumbled upon the mangled corpse in the road.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 3:29 PM CST up reply actions  

-"the"

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

annnnnd *stumble*

Contrary to how it appears, I have not gotten that stiff drink yet.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

It almost looks like it has two pairs of eyes.

It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.

by SonOfCron on Jan 26, 2010 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

So rarely are we treated to wincing monkey. Thanks, Guapo. That made me smile.

And then cry harder.

"there's just not enough at bats. ___ is a veteran. and he must be respected." ~larry, 1/26/10

by homesickalien on Jan 26, 2010 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

i hate animals that shed

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 5:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Kenny oughta be all over the Damon situation.

At this point, I gotta believe the White Sox would be attractive a place as any of the few suitors he appears to have. Jesus.

by dantesox on Jan 26, 2010 4:16 PM CST reply actions  

Probably prefers a team that knows what the hell they are doing.

Plus Ozzie wouldn’t want to insult such a great talent by putting him in a platoon with Jones. It just wouldn’t be right.

by Grinder in Training on Jan 26, 2010 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

like i said earlier

i would be absolutely shocked if they added anyone to that roll. Ozzie has made his bed and will sleep in it….. until may when he attacks walker for a bad offense and threatens to quit again.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Well....

that’s why I have a miniscule amount of hope as far as Damon goes….he’s supposedly the kind of guy the Wizard of Oz wants….can play the field, has some speed….etc. And cheap.

by dantesox on Jan 26, 2010 4:21 PM CST up reply actions  

jon garland is a padre

i expect a pretty nice year for him…. well except in the wins category

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Jan 26, 2010 4:21 PM CST reply actions  

Living near San Diego I have the benefit of feeling lucky that I don't have to cheer for that offensive juggernaut

so in that respect the 2010 Sox look like the ’27 Yankees. And when KW steals Gonzalez…..

Garland will enjoy pitching in Petco, the Gaslamp, the fish tacos, the beach, etc. He won’t enjoy run support.

by Duck99 on Jan 26, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions  

The Science of Fly Balls

Interesting article (and kind of funny that the article comes with a photo of Pods actually making a good catch):

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/ct-fly-ball-science-20100126,0,2041864.story

by palehose67 on Jan 26, 2010 4:31 PM CST reply actions  

YOU DA MAN TOO!

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 5:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Fuck this day.

Fuck it right in the ear.

It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.

by SonOfCron on Jan 26, 2010 5:22 PM CST up reply actions  

YOU DA MAN!

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 5:29 PM CST up reply actions  

I just flagged Cheat's posting and sent this as the reason why.
CHEAT, how dare you play on the fickle minds that troll sss? This Thome love is ridiculous… you would have thought he came up through our minor league system and helped win us multiple world series… in the time that he was here, 1 playoff appearance and 0 championships.

"I don’t know how you guys measure worth…but I do know you idiots need a graph to show you that Josh Fields sucks…"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Jan 26, 2010 5:36 PM CST reply actions  

Well in times like this I say . . .

UNLEASH THE PATRON SAINT OF DH’S!

Harold Douglas Baines!

Sure he over 50, but wasn’t Minnie Minoso?

Look it has to work a lot better than the time I tried to answer every question on the SAT by writing in Harold Baines all over the answer form. Sure it meant I got only 15 on my SAT (I did not come close to getting my own name right) and some time in a state run mental health facility, but you can’t tell me Harold Baines would not go for at least 2 for 5 with a couple of RBI’s versus the SAT. . .

Goes back in to crazy votex. . .

All Hail St. Harold, Patron Saint of Designated Hitters!

by Boski93 on Jan 26, 2010 7:07 PM CST reply actions  

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