The Official SSS Top Eleven White Sox Prospects
2010 was an eventful season for White Sox prospects. Injuries slowed Trayce Thompson and Josh Phegley, and halted 2009 top pick Jared Mitchell. AAA proved to be a difficult hurdle for catcher heir apparent Tyler Flowers and completely derailed C.J. Retherford. But not all the eventful was negative. Sergio Santos completed a transformation from infielder to legitimate major league reliever in less than a calendar year. And 2010 top pick Chris Sale completed a transformation from collegiate starter to high leverage major league reliever in less than four months.
And then there was the more mundane progress that is the bedrock of player development. Daniel Hudson continued his progress towards a potential #2 starter - and was treated to the inevitable Kenny Williams trade out of the organization. Dayan Viciedo put a subpar year at AA behind him and put up a more acceptable line between AAA and the majors. And Brent Morel went from AA to starting third baseman for the White Sox.
The White Sox minor league system is still quite poor. The lack of depth is alarming, particularly in pitching. Their prospects have more question marks, earlier on the list than probably any other organization. After #5, you can toss a dozen players in a bowl and randomly pick them and have a perfectly defensible list. On that happy note, let's get to the list.
1. Chris Sale, LHP. 2010 MLB line: 23.1 IP, 15 H, 10 BB, 32 K. If Williams had his way, this would be how every draft pick progressed. Gordon Beckham set a pretty high bar with his year to the majors. Sale smashed through that with two months to the majors. The question now for the instant gratification GM is whether he will stick to his avowed plan of returning the lanky lefty to a starting role - in which most observers see a potential #2 starter - and the return to the minors that comes with it, or if the allure of a potential closer (and the fan and media pressure that comes with that) will prove to be too much. Sale certainly has the makings of a very good starter. His fastball is obviously a plus pitch and both his slider and changeup are good, as well. And he's shown that he can be effective against both righties and lefties. ETA: Already arrived, but will he stay? There currently isn't a MLB rotation spot available and, anyway, it's unlikely that he'd be ready to step into that role immediately. An arm like his certainly has a place in the bullpen. While it's probably the wrong answer long-term - pitchers with his potential are far more valuable as starters - I think it's more likely the win-now White Sox lack the patience to develop him as a starter.
2. Brent Morel, 3B. 2010 MiLB line: Birmingham/Charlotte: .322/.359/.480; MLB line: .231/.271/.415. If I was certain Sale would be a reliever, the value hit commensurate with that role may well have elevated Morel to the top spot. Setting aside the rhetorical necessity of a 1-10 ranking, Morel projects to be an average to slightly above third baseman. His defense, as I think most have realized by now, is his plus tool and from where much of his value will be derived. He hasn't shown much ability to draw a walk so his contact skills will drive much of his offensive value. While some think he'll develop more power - and his 3 home runs after his call-up lends support to that position - others still think he's more of a 15 home run per season guy. ETA: Also already arrived and here to stay. Your 2011 opening day third baseman.
3. Jared Mitchell, OF. 2010 MiLB line: injured. At this point, most prospect mavens would dock Mitchell for missing almost an entire year of development. That argument rests largely on two things: he's a raw player who very much needs repetitions to reach his potential and the ankle injury may result in a loss of speed, one of his primary tools. My opinion of Mitchell remains unchanged from last year largely because I don't know what effect the injury will have. Sure, he's lost a season but, at his age (22), that really doesn't concern me all that much. And I'll wait to actually see if he has indeed lost a step. He's healthy now, played regularly in the Instructional League and is currently playing in the Arizona Fall League. That should answer a lot of the questions. But I think the upside of an elite CF with good power, plus speed, plus plate discipline and plus defense hasn't changed. ETA: Late 2012. The injury likely does push back his expected arrival. Birmingham is a possibility to start 2011 but a couple months in Winston-Salem is by no means out of the question.
4. Dayan Viciedo, 1B/DH. MiLB line: Charlotte: .274/.308/.493. MLB line: .308/.321/.519. After getting a mulligan from me for 2009, he began to show some of the skills the White Sox saw in him when they signed him. While he still simply does not take walks - infamously going 82 at-bats before getting one in the majors - his bat speed is tremendous and his batting practice power in 2009 translated into game power in 2010. He also has pretty good contact skills and, when he does make contact, it's often hard contact. He particularly punishes lefties. Without some plate discipline, however, it's hard to see him becoming an above average player, especially if he's limited defensively to 1B. A rumored move to the outfield could prove interesting. But whether - and how much - he refines his offensive approach will dictate his ceiling. ETA: Already here, but may be headed back to Charlotte for a bit. Morel's performance/Viciedo's ineptitude has closed off 3B and offseason moves will determine what is happening with 1B and DH. The White Sox appear to recognize that he needs regular at-bats to improve so I wouldn't expect to see him opening day unless he's been handed a starting role.
5. Tyler Flowers, C. 2010 MiLB line: Charlotte: .220/.334/.434. We come to the mystery. First, what happened to his offense? The simple answer is lack of contact. A 35% strikeout rate isn't a good thing. But getting at the root cause is the key. Early in the season, there was discussion that an enforced change to his swing mechanics was the problem. Supposedly that was resolved by June - and he continued to not hit well. From watching video, his swing now looks longer than it did with Birmingham, potentially resulting in a greater susceptibility to fastballs. The second question is, what happened to his defense? After last season, Flowers received rave reviews for his improvements on defense. This season, all we heard was how his defense had regressed. It seems more likely to me that his defense hasn't really changed much but its perception was colored by his offensive output in each season. ETA: Mid 2011. It's hard to get a read on the thoughts of the organization on him. His lack of playing time in September makes one think they're down on him and it's certainly hard to hand a roster spot to an offense-first catcher with his line in AAA. He's probably going back to Charlotte for at least a few months, where he'll need to show more than he did in 2010.
6. Trayce Thompson, OF. 2010 MiLB line: Kannapolis: .229/.302/.433. And now we come to the morass. After Flowers, it's really pick your marginal prospect. So, lottery ticket anyone? Thompson has just about all the tools, resulting in arguably the highest upside of anyone in the organization but, as such things go, he's also the furthest from it. The 19 year old's stat line looks pretty ugly but, even allowing for the broken right thumb which limited him to just 58 games, it counts as progress. He cut his strikeout rate from Rookie Ball from 38.5% down to 33%, suggesting he's made progress in strike zone recognition and perhaps in shortening his long swing. He also showed signs of developing his raw power. All that said, he needs to make big improvements in every aspect of his game. ETA: 2014. He's going back to Kannapolis to start the year and, assuming some progress, will see Winston-Salem before it's over.
7. Gregory Infante, RHP. 2010 MiLB line: Winston-Salem/Birmingham: 60 IP, 55 H, 27 BB, 69 K. After pitching as a starter for his entire career, the 23 year old Venezuelan moved to the bullpen this season and the results were very good. A classic Kenny Williams hard-thrower, it wasn't a big surprise when the White Sox rewarded him with a September call-up. The righty has late inning potential with a very nice fastball that gets into the upper 90s. His second pitch is a curve that is a plus pitch when he's on. With the Dash and Barons he struck out 10.5 per 9 but also walked 4 per 9. He obviously needs to improve his control a bit and becoming more consistent with his breaking ball would be the best way to do that. ETA: Already here and will be given strong consideration for the opening day bullpen.
8. Eduardo Escobar, SS. 2010 MiLB line: Winston-Salem/Birmingham: .277/.316./.393. Escobar is a 21 year old switch-hitting shortstop out of Venezuela. His glove is fantastic - some argue close to the best at his position in the minors - and it's almost totally based on that skill that he ranks this high. His bat continues to be a work in progress, but progress was indeed made in 2010. His slight frame (probably 170 lbs) shows little projection in the way of power but what little is there he began to develop by increasing his doubles, resulting in a robust .116 ISO for the year. There are still concerns about his strikeouts - guys who don't hit for power should strive to at least make the defense work for outs - but he managed to keep them below the 20% he put up at Kannapolis in 2009 while playing at two higher levels. He's got a high floor - his glove will probably carry him to the majors, at least in a utility role - and a bit more progress with the bat and he could be a glove-first starter. ETA: Late 2012. He'll go back to Birmingham and, depending upon his offensive progress, may see Charlotte later in the season.
9. Jordan Danks, OF. 2010 MiLB line: Charlotte: .245/.312/.373. Over-matched at Charlotte and quickly becoming a non-prospect. He simply has not shown much of anything in 832 plate appearances in the upper minors and his placement on this list is a nod to him being curiously pushed to AAA for 2010, apparently (in another cautionary tale) on the basis of his Arizona Fall League campaign. Danks simply strikes out too much. You can probably count on one hand the players who can get away with a 34% strikeout rate and the powerless Danks isn't one of them. The defensive reports have been very favorable and it's possible that another season in AAA will result in some improvement. But it's difficult to see much more than a utility outfielder at this point. ETA: Late 2011. A return engagement in Charlotte.
10. Andre Rienzo, RHP. 2010 MiLB line: 101 IP, 95 H, 32 BB, 125 K. The 22 year old Brazilian was impressive in his full season debut. A personal favorite who I've followed since his days in the Dominican Summer League, he's always maintained strong strikeout rates and he's developed solid control, as well. The righty has a good fastball that gets into the mid 90s. He'll need to improve his secondary offerings - change and curve - but it's hard to argue with the results so far. ETA: 2014. A long way off, he'll begin 2011 with Winston-Salem.
11. Charlie Leesman, LHP. 2010 MiLB line: 148.1 IP, 145 H, 64 BB, 90K . The 23 year old lefty was pretty bad for Winston-Salem (84.2 IP, 98 H, 44 BB, 39 K). But obviously this was an instance where the numbers didn't tell the story. Upon his promotion to Birmingham, his numbers improved across the board (63.2 IP, 47 H, 20 BB, 51 K). He's got a 90 MPH fastball with some nice sink and, in a relief role during spring training, he got into the mid-90s. He predictably beats up on lefties and if he continues to make progress with his changeup, he has a chance to be a starter. ETA: Late 2011. Was a spring training invitee last year and will probably get a courtesy look as a bullpen arm this year. But expect a return to the minors, probably Birmingham, to continue development as a starter.
Others: Jose Martinez, Addison Reed, Jacob Petricka, Brandon Short
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Based on his 2010 numbers and some scouting snippets you've posted
Saladino looks to be a guy to keep an eye on
i also like saladfingers
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Yeesh.
Good write-up. Sale as “lanky” sounds very 1960’s, so thank you.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
Yikes.
Im happy to read you feel Morel is the opening day 3B. This must have a plus defense next year.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
I just hope this means
that teabag has found a new home, and not in right.
"Statistics are about as interesting as first base coaches" Jim Bouton
by Grinder Rule #42 on Oct 18, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
that's a sick left side of the INF at a very low cost.
fucking Teahen.
He ruins everything.
I want to track him down and heckle the shit out of him when he walks that stupid dog of his.
"The lack of depth is alarming, particularly in pitching."
FKW, FJP, and FNS. We used to have depth.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
FDepth
I’d rather have Nick Swisher.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
FNS.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
by winningugly on Oct 18, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
FJP?
I’m glad we gave up John Ely for Juan Pierre.
I don’t like it when the Sox have marginal pitching that also happens to be dashingly handsome.
My undying, homoerotic support of Neal Cotts in 2006 is a misery I’d like to never revisit.
Forget it, Jake, it's Chinatown.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
Nice write up
But I think I like the wise ass comments section larry better. As a product of the Chicago public school system, I am completely baffled when confronted with lawyer-esque words such as derailed, rhetorical and consideration.
Blanke
Do you have any thoughts on Michael Blanke? Was he considered or do you need to see how he fares against more age appropriate competition?
he was not considered.
even setting aside his age, i have questions about his defense. he wasn’t a full time catcher until this year and i’d like to hear more substance on his abilities.
What about the happy-medium route for Sale?
first-half (give or take) spent in the minors (Birmingham? The Sox seem to like to push their starters, and they can set him up with Perdew) as a starter, second half call-up as a reliever. All together he pitched about 140 innings last year (college included). I doubt the half-and-half approach would get him above that, but it would put him around 100-130 IP, so it wouldn’t be too much of a decrease.
i wouldn't mind that
but i wonder if you couldn’t accomplish the same just getting him 2-3IP at a time in the bigs. maybe down the stretch if necessary you move up his leverage and cut back his innings per appearance. isn’t that more or less what earl weaver used to do?
Fireworks: Bang?
you didn't mention buehrle
I think he is the most likely to be dealt (regrettably). Second to him, Jackson.
"There's too many (bleeping) guys on the computer. It's simple. I say that. Pete Rose never watched a computer. Rod Carew never did. All those hitters, they go out and see the ball, hit it and move on." - Ozzie
by usualsuspect on Oct 18, 2010 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions
you probably can ignore it since the guy with the full NTC certainly isn't the most likely to be dealt.
but he wants to play for them!
not really. He wants to play for the sox. He said it in the interview after the season. He’s thankfull to the Sox for giving him his chance and he never wants to leave.
Thome Walks-Off Sox, Twists Knife, Continues To Make Sox Brass Look REALLY Stupid - White Sox Season Recap
because lat muscles detach and are repaired all the time?
cheat shares your optimism, but I feel like if hes back at all next year hes going to suck.
Will Freddy Garcia accept my invitation to the Sybaris? -KenWo4life
Because the docs in Alabama are the best in the world,
and they have a little experience with connective tissue/muscle surgery. He also has been out since June/July – it didn’t just happen.
Take a Sominex. Relax.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
Which has been a problem the last few years.
His lat may be fine. Who knows what other cog in his wheel breaks down? He is becoming Getz-like, though the injuries are less nagging flesh wounds than maladies that keep him on the shelf for more than a couple starts.
At some point you wonder how durable he is.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
'At some point'?
His durability has been an issue for years.
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Oct 18, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
he made at least 27 starts since becoming a full time player prior to '09
and he’s a starter. this is what starters do unless they’re mark buehrle.
Fireworks: Bang?
As Sox fans, we've been more than a little spoiled in this regard. You're exactly right - these things happen.
"In Minnesota, you're gonna see everybody runnin' with a man…" - Troy Aikman
i'm in favor of another round of freddy
plus Sale as a piggyback. you don’t like to have to pay 2 million more in insurance on a guy with his salary, but the trade already happened. i just hope the Sox learn from it somewhat. they’re going to end up paying something like $25MM for production they could have had from Richard and Hudson in 2011 and spent like $18MM in 2010.
the biggest problem with what i recall saying at the time was not focusing on the opportunity cost of Peavy’s salary. even if he stays healthy, keeping those two and just signing the difference in salary on the open market might have kept the Twins at bay.
Fireworks: Bang?
that's a lot of hindsight
I don’t recall that many people on here getting upset about Richards being dealt – Hudson yes, but not Richards – no one here predicted his progression.
When the capital development of a country becomes a by-product of the activities of a casino, the job is likely to be ill-done.
yeah that's true.
perhaps it’s more fair to say i wish they had picked out a guy who could offer more surplus value/upside. makes it easier to deal with the young guys hitting their upside.
Fireworks: Bang?
It seems that more and more KW loses sight of the future.
It annoys me.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 18, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
could be
i’m sure he’s thinking he’s going to be retiring or moving upstairs soon enough. trying to go out with a bang. his moves have had a pretty obvious short term horizon since the freddy and mccarthy trades.
Fireworks: Bang?
He speaks of losing Hahn soon
and Hahn has started taking interviews whereas before he would decline. To me this means there’s no ultimatum for KW’s passing of the torch and I just don’t see him doing that until he tastes another championship. I also don’t see JR, whom I believe would make such a decision, choosing to force movement against Ken’s will. So while I’d like to see Hahn and Williams both promoted it seems like Ken’s waiting until he’s sure he wants it.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions
sadly i tend to agree with you
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
that's depressing if true
from observation it seems like most folks stay around too long trying to go out on top and that in itself leads to failure.
Fireworks: Bang?
I'll be paying close attention to what goes on this offseason
I’m not sure whether there’s much that can be done as far as creativity but then again I’d personally take a boring approach to this team.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions
outside of the low key band-back-together stuff
i don’t see any obvious moves. obviously that’s no guarantee kenny will keep it boring.
Fireworks: Bang?
Obviously I'd miss Paul and I don't think Viciedo or Flowers are ready yet
it could be interesting, but how much payroll is available is yet to be seen. I would really be irked if they didn’t bring Paulie back and then gave Jenks 9-10 mil.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
i did a small post about the straight forward moves that i expected
assuming Jenks is gone, they’ll have about $25MM to add to their current commitments by my guess
Fireworks: Bang?
What do you think AJ would fetch to come back?
pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth: but don't commit a gay suicide, because you could be stuck playing for the twins
by South Side Expat on Oct 20, 2010 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions
it better not be a raise on what he made
in ‘10. i’m way more willing to set AJ free than Paulie. AJ’s never shown anything like that kind of upside.
Fireworks: Bang?
i don't know what i expect, since i'm not familiar with the injury
and what that entails for recovery. best comp i can think of is Contreras. we’ll know more based on the kind of hedging the Sox do for the fifth guy. Torres/Sale/whomever is the current 5th if Peavy can’t go and i really doubt they’d be happy with that.
i think the Sox target is an implicit 4.00 RA from their top 4, plus something sub 5.00 from their 5th guy. that plus a solid bullpen and average position players makes for very watchable baseball that gets JR to break even.
Fireworks: Bang?
Breaking even isn't really their thing
at least, that’s not what the top guys let on.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
that's what JR said
they try to break even every year. they’d have a far trimmer payroll if they were trying to make money.
Fireworks: Bang?
I mean that they're trying to create a championship team every year
It seems like common sense, but most teams aren’t in position to make that a goal every year. They’re trying to make money by winning and the break-even is something like this year when they’re interesting. It’s a good thing to break even most years while still contending, if they do indeed break even.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Well if there is one medical staff that i'd trust with his recovery its here.
Peavy’s a smart pitcher I think he’ll be fine. The question mark is can he be exceptional again but as Colin already correctly pointed out he doesn’t need to be.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
what the hell does being a smart pitcher have to do with his body healing?
Well, that a good manageris your opinion. by winningugly
a smart pitcher wouldn't overdo it and fuck the shoulder back up right out the gates
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
He's learned that now
Listen to your body a little bit better than I did. Be a little more honest with yourself when you are feeling something. I let something get quite a bit out of hand, and it led to an unfortunate ending to the season.
smart pitchers also know how to get more with less
in addition to not over doing it this certainly can lead to a partially effective Peavy.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Excellent write-up
Though I’m a little surprised to see no love for your boy Saladino.
FifthFeather.com
by El Duque's Raft on Oct 18, 2010 1:13 PM CDT reply actions
So if Saladino shows "it" to you...
he’s going to get some larry love. I just want to make sure that I’m reading this correctly.
Regarding Saladino...
I know that you’re not doing a mailbag Q&A here (I do enjoy those), but I’m wondering what your current thoughts are on Saladino. I know he probably strikes out too much, but do you think that’s something that will improve with time (better pitch identification)? Also, do you think he is best suited for SS? Perhaps second base would be better? I apologize if you’ve covered this elsewhere. Thanks.
he's a 2B.
and the strikeouts certainly was the primary thing keeping him out of consideration. reports were that recognition of offspeed pitches was the problem. he’s got decent swing mechanics so he’s got a good enough chance to improve.
Sale needs to stay in the minors and become a starter
Buehrle won’t be around forever, and he seems like the ideal replacement
Thome Walks-Off Sox, Twists Knife, Continues To Make Sox Brass Look REALLY Stupid - White Sox Season Recap
Flagged. Buehrle will, in fact, be around forever.
"In Minnesota, you're gonna see everybody runnin' with a man…" - Troy Aikman
that's the way i figure it as well.
i am a bark for buffeting. i am a hound for thornypaws. i am a doe for swiftness. i am a tree for wind-siege. i am a windmill. i am a hole in a wall.
I most certainly hope so
Thome Walks-Off Sox, Twists Knife, Continues To Make Sox Brass Look REALLY Stupid - White Sox Season Recap
Yep. Bad.
Probably not the best place to post, but….anybody else in favor of Kenny getting kicked upstairs and seeing Hahn named GM? I’m afraid we’ll lose him and damn if I don’t have a great feeling about him…..always have.
Hahn gets a lot of credit for dishing out the company line.
He might be better than KW, he might not.
Will Freddy Garcia accept my invitation to the Sybaris? -KenWo4life
That's true
But at least we know a bit about some of his leanings to an advanced statistics model. That along with his tenure under the White Sox and not forgetting about the “right” kind of scouting makes me believe he’ll be a well rounded gm.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Did I not hear on the Club that he uses advanced statistics, but only reports RBI, ERA, AVG, etc to KW and JR?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
No? My mistake. Who was it?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh. So do KW and JR only have an understanding of the most basic stats?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Just wondering why he said he often gives evaluations using only the most easily understood forms
when talking to KW and JR. Hopefully KW isn’t looking at RBI and AVG when calling up other GM’s and inquiring about their players.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Umm Shoeless
you have some access I don’t know about?
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
No, I just thought I recalled him saying in the interview that he tries to keep his stats simple
when talking about players to KW and JR
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
i thought the import of that
was like any other report you provide to your superior. you don’t throw in every single bit of information. i’m sure you can figure out how the phrase executive summary came about.
I understand that, but I'm not sure it applies here.
I mean, if KW knew what wOBA was, wPA, or OBP, or xFIP, or FIP, or WAR, or whatever… then he should also know that someone telling him so-and-so’s batting average and rbi’s would mean shit.
But this is really no secret though. KW isn’t a stathead. He’s a scout first, statistician 9th.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I really don't why you are going to this extreme.
KW has spoken many times in the past on his opinion on such matters. Its not anywhere extreme as you think and the White Sox (actually many teams) do have some propriety stuff they use in addition to readily available numbers.
There is a reason he pays attention to things like gb% for example.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
It is easy to ascribe negative behaviors to someone
you don’t like. SC wants KW fired, so KW is a stump-jumper. SC lives in the Land of the Rebel Yell, KW is black.
Do. The. Math.
PS Are you our Joe DiMaggio now? You know, Mr. Coffee?
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
I would like him and Ozzie fired. But not for the ethnicity/racial thing.
If the GM/Manager is competent, I don’t care what color he is. Except purple and orange. That shit is hideous.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
There is a reason he pays attention to things like gb% for example.
Probably because someone else in the organization told him it was important for such a HR-happy environment. I doubt he was sipping his mocha latte one morning and thought “You know what, I seem to see a lot of HR’s hit here in our park. It seems like a freakin’ launch pad here in the summer! In fact, I bet we’re near the league lead in HR’s at the Cell. Let me check my stats… mmm… yep. We sure are! We should focus on acquiring some wormkillers here. That’ll give us an edge!”
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Compared to most other GM's? No.
But do I think he should hand the job over to someone better? Yeah.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
You do know this is freaking retarded right?
In what world does KW not know what’s going on with his team and tendencies?
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Our world.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
You are pretty much on verge of losing all credibility with me
in regards to this. Simply put. You’re wrong.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
That's fine. It's just opinion.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
No problem
But you might want to consider that the first thing that Williams did upon promotion is hire Dan Fabain as director of baseball operations.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
That moves makes sense. As Fabian worked in scouting for 17 years.
Good hire. Good to hire someone who’s been with the organization for over a decade.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I mean let's be honest. KW was a player.
His roots and strengths are in scouting and what he sees on the field. Not what can be read in a stat book.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
No one has the capacity to learn, eh.
Or hire those who fill in the knowledge gaps. Chrissakes.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
That's what I'm saying wu.
That he doesn’t get all the advanced stats. That’s why he needs guys like Hahn and Fabian.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you really this naive?
That you think Kenny Williams is this stupid?
You have to just be fucking with TDogg and Wu. There’s no way you can think the things you are saying.
by Grinder in Training on Oct 19, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
there is difference
between understanding and preference. Jesus man.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
He has a Stanford degree, IIRC
regardless of whether he uses Fangraphs cumulative stats I think he has a pretty solid idea of what numbers he’s looking for.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
He graduated?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I guess not, but it would at least suggest he's a pretty sharp guy overall
something you could infer otherwise.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
I never said he was retarded or an idiot
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
nope the dummy
went pro.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
wtf are you saying?
We already know his preference is stuff like film study. Something by the way which has paid great dividends. So you hire folks that complement you. Kind of smart if you ask me.
Plenty of organizations (ummm Cleveland….) have drones all on the same page.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
How do you explain the second Swisher trade, then?
And the Teahen extension?
And the Linebrink extension?
What stats was he looking at there?
I’m not going to bitch about the Hudson trade because I don’t hate it. Nor the JP trade.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Given their status as "Moneyball
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
" players, I'd lend that he leaned to far to the other extreme in each case.
He’s also driven mostly by his desire to win immediately. He wanted Linebrink badly given his good numbers and stuff and overkilled the contract. Remember, Hahn is supposedly the one that does a lot of the negotiations. Maybe that’s Ken’s biggest weakness as a GM.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
why did Billy Beane give Ben sheets 10 million?
I can scrutinize all GM moves and find bad ones. What’s your point? He made some bad moves? Okay. Are you saying saber inclined teams don’t? You do realize the Angels, White Sox, Twins and the fucking Phillies don’t exactly bowl saber-heads over. But guess what?
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Oh so the Phillies, Angels and Twins strong belief towards
great pitching and defense isn’t sabermetrics?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
oh boy
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Raul Ibanez has a lockdown glove.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
Raul Ibanez takes pride in his defense.
Ed Farmer will tell you hit hit the ball hard all season and could have easily hit .310. Ed Farmer is an idiot.
by Ozzie Montana on Oct 19, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
What I'm saying is they're looking at the whole picture
And sabermetricians look at the whole picture. Value from pitching, defense, and offense.
So they may not have any self-proclaimed Sabermetricians on their staff like the Padres, Red Sox, and A’s, who’s to say their GMs don’t rely on the use of those stats from their people?
I’m merely getting at that a GM should have some knowledge of the most advanced stats out there. And he should be able to understand them when presented with them.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
This is closest to the RR that I have ever seen a discussion get
"Kotsay should get the Golden Goebbels" by 67WMAQ
Good thing logic was already brutally murdered.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
any gm that gives ryan howard that contract
does not understand player value
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
thats just the tip of the iceberg
lol
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Fine. Obviously no one here today shares my opinion
So I’ll keep my dissenting comments, (however right or wrong they may be) re: KW, OG, and the front to myself.
Most of my fellow alums and friends also think I’m an idiot for questioning Steve Spurrier’s moves since he arrived. Being on an island with my thoughts is nothing new to me.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Scouting
for Teabag. Linebrink was an over reaction.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
i don't think that's what he said. or what was meant.
while the white sox are not the most advanced team out there, i wouldn’t expect any team to discuss what it is that they look at.
I think its fair to assume
a gm who knows what Baseball Prospectus predicts about him know more than basic stats. He’s just doesn’t feel its everything.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
I would hope so.
But it’s dangerous to assume.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
baseless assumptions are one thing
but you’ve officially freaked out wrt Ozzie and KW
Fireworks: Bang?
x

pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth: but don't commit a gay suicide, because you could be stuck playing for the twins
by South Side Expat on Oct 19, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
you haven't heard?
KW lives and dies with ERA. Why else would he trade for players like Danks and Floyd who rocked killer ones beforehand?
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Isn't his stance on KW entirely based on assumptions?
Assumptions that evidently few, if any people, share?
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
right, i was saying that everybody has assorted
weird beliefs on the margins, but it would take way beyond merely few baseless assumptions to get to his conclusions wrt Ozzie and KW. hence he has “freaked out” above and beyond the community norm.
Fireworks: Bang?
And that's fine to me if that's the case
I don’t come here seeking approval of my ideas and thoughts. I have my beliefs and while few are accepted and many disregarded, they rarely change. I’d have to see some proof of some sort to change my beliefs on this matter. I almost never give anyone the benefit of the doubt.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course. What person doesn't believe what they think?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
he himself thinks*
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions
difference between self-belief
and not stopping to ask yourself whether or not what you are believing or saying is valid. i believe it known round these parts as ‘2ndhalfadjustments’ syndrome.
Oh. I see.
This is just an issue of semantics then. I believe what I think to be true. But that doesn’t mean I don’t accept the fact that I’m often wrong, or capable of being wrong. I certainly wouldn’t adopt a belief that I also held to be wrong.
If someone can show me some proof, something of substance, that Kenny Williams has more than a basic understanding (ie. more than a Joe Morgan understanding) of baseball statistics, and has used these more advanced statistics to make a personnel decision, then I will back off.
I think it’s great he’s hired people around him that are numbers guys. But if he’s going to ignore these guys from time to time, then what’s the point? Again, I’m not in the war room with these guys, so I can only speculate. Yet I haven’t heard anything to convince me otherwise.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
"If he's going to ignore these guys from time to time..."
…then he’s acting well within his rights as the person in charge?
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
if he didn't ignore them from time to time
there’d be no point in his job. just make a decision amongst said guys.
I can only speculate.
It would appear to me that he went with his gut and not statistical analysis (speculating also that he ignored his guys) when making the Linebrink, Teahen, and Swisher (pt 2) moves. Those are just the recent ones I could think of. Would I have made those moves and extensions? No. I thought I was fairly vocal when they happened.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions
yes those are bad deals
and they probably are a decent basis for you to want a different gm. (not that i agree with you).
however, you are creating hypothetical scenarios in your head that suggest to you that kenny has compounded the stupidity of those deals because of his own hubris. that other people in the organisation were imploring him not to go ahead with ’em. but you have no idea whether or not that is true.
it puts your entire argument on an unsteady footing to say the least.
No doubt. I think you're putting it lightly.
My theory is at best spurious. For all I don’t know, Hahn and Fabian may have pushed for those deals. What I do think is that the chairs at the poker table need to be shuffled a bit. Maybe some new players added to the game.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I think we need new cliches.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
the cleveland indians are considered one of the organizations that relies heavily on statistical analysis.
it’s really worked out great for them.
mariners too
4 hours 5 minutes? Is that all? Buehrle coulda pitched three CGs and the bottom of the 14th in Houston by then. FTMFYITA! - RWShow
rick hahn on KW:
“And, perhaps most importantly, I certainly don’t get hired if I wasn’t fortunate enough that the guy doing the hiring was as creative and forward-thinking as Kenny is and thereby willing to take chance on hiring someone who lacked experience working for a club but he could still view as a potential asset."
Hahn’s background:
But after clubs showed little interest, Hahn went back near his hometown to Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. He picked up many tools at Kellogg that would later help him inside the front office, studying the areas of finance, statistical analysis, regression analysis, accounting methods, and so on.
http://fullcountpitch.com/2010/05/19/rick-hahn-and-his-path-to-the-chicago-white-sox/
Fireworks: Bang?
you've said both that you don't think KW
is competent and that he’s better than most GMs in the league. so your view is that most GMs except _ are terrible.
Fireworks: Bang?
I don't think KW is a competent GM, no. I do think he's more competent than most, though.
That said, I don’t want him to be the Sox GM anymore. Simply put.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions
so you're not going to acknowledge that you think
that he’s an above average GM and still should be replaced for some unnamed candidate. in the very least, tell me which unhired and hired GMs you’d prefer to Kenny.
Fireworks: Bang?
this is getting stupid now.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
No, it got stupid around 2:30 today.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions
you do realize that baseball prospectus
rates Kenny as an above avg GM. Joe Seehan calls him one of the best. We all believe in stats, but your view that orgs just rely on such raw numbers is way off. Its okay to be upset about certain moves, but based on some of your comments i don’t even think you know what true sabermetics is.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
You're right. I would only be able to explain it to an 8 year old.
Expectancy, win shares, run values… it’s all very complicated and I’m honestly not interested. But I want my GM/Manager to have some grasp of it. That way then maybe, just maybe, I wouldn’t have to see shit like Thome walking off to the Twins for a song, Teahen murdering 3B all season, Kotsay batting DH, and wondering to myself what if Nick Swisher hadn’t been traded for/traded from.
Yes, he’s better than the average GM. But when and why should we settle? Yeah, I’m still bitter about this year. Perhaps that’s clouding my judgment. Ask me how I feel again in April. Or I’ll let you know.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions
ugh
i can’t express myself sufficiently to get at why this sentiment bothers me. i think it’s that you see statistics as some kind of holy grail. it’s really really not.
Fireworks: Bang?
I certainly don't think they're the holy grail.
Especially after taking Biostatistics for the second go-round. I can see that numbers can sometimes be manipulated in many ways to get your data to say what you want it to.
Fuck, man. This discussion just goes around and around chasing its tail. If you care to know what I think, then simply put: I don’t want Kenny to be the GM anymore. I’d prefer someone with a more statistics based background. If that’s Rick, then fine. I think he’s deserved a shot to make the final decisions.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
the problem is that you don't justify yourself
in the least and then go on about how you’re bored when someone takes you up on it.
Fireworks: Bang?
Takes me up on it? What else can I say? I'm outta bullets. I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again.
The only way I can justify my beliefs is from what I saw on the Club, though heavily edited it may have been, interviews, what I read in the papers, and the result of personnel decisions that are made. It’s speculation at best. I acknowledge that. But no one has said anything to make me believe otherwise. Your article didn’t say or imply anything about KW using stats himself to make decisions. Or having an understanding of them. No doubt Hahn does, but how much stock does KW take in Hahn’s advice? Why did Fabian say that he prefers simpler stats when talking to these guys? That’s what I’m wanting to know.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Ugh.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
for the love of God
stop with the Club crap. KW has been the GM for 9 years man. You obviously haven’t paid attention. Your beliefs are so far out there is beyond common sense. Bad decisions were made. Fine. As I said give me a GM and I’ll give you some bad deals. You are entitled to who you want at gm not arguing that but the other goofy stuff has got to go.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
What are Andrew Friedman's bad deals?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions
That's it? One bad signing?
I think most GM’s would have made that offer of 2 years at $16 million. At least something similar. I don’t think anyone projected him to be replacement level after his 2008 season. The man had been worth around 2 wins a year for his career.
The signing had poor results, but I didn’t think it was a terrible signing at the time. It’s remarkable the turnaround Burrell had once he left Tampa Bay, though, isn’t it?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, think of all the moves that looked bad when Ken made them
and turned out great!
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
you know what's a really great way to rarely make a bad move?
don’t sign any free agents of consequence. and don’t make any trades. when your farm system is as rich as the rays has and currently is – and you have essentially zero payroll to work with – you don’t sign free agents for much value or for many years and you don’t make many trades. friedman should get credit for the one trade of consequence he’s made – matt garza (i’ll let the jury continue to deliberate on the jackson-joyce trade). he should also get nailed for the one free agent of consequence he’s signed – burrell.
in the case of the rays, one could probably make a pretty good argument that making a signing like burrell, and having it blow up in their faces as spectacularly as it did, is far more damaging to the team than some of the bad moves larger payroll teams make on the margins of their rosters. i won’t deny that it’s really good business to sign free agents to one year deals and lock up the awesome players you develop. of course, it’s the latter part that’s the trick. and i won’t give friedman too much credit for the development of the farm.
K, thx.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 20, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
It's the ones he hasn't made that have been disappointing.
He did use a 1st overall pick on Tim Beckham who, up to this point, hasn’t done much. I think people give Friedman too much credit, really it’s the scouting department that should get most of the credit. He’s also given Edwin Jackson for Matt Joyce, Mitch Talbot for Kelly Shoppach then gave him an extension, probably gave Carlos Pena more than he deserved, definitely gave Dioner Navarro more than he deserved, got nothing for Julio Lugo and Jorge Cantu, both of whom were pretty good at one point… he signed Pat Burrell… because of his restraints he makes smaller scale mistakes that add up and he hasn’t gotten some of the turnouts KW has gotten by taking leaps. Obviously he’s a very good GM an a lot of that was nit-picking but he is far from infallible.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 19, 2010 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, he did leave Josh Hamilton off the 40-man, only to be claimed away.
A really bad move, as it turned out… but it’s hard to fault him.
"In Minnesota, you're gonna see everybody runnin' with a man…" - Troy Aikman
if you take the Club seriously
then why wouldn’t you take Hahn’s opinion of KW seriously? this all sounds like bias confirmation on your part as far as I’m concerned.
but as far as the Club goes, that was put on for the fans. don’t be surprised when they speak the fans language. i say all that without having seen it myself.
Fireworks: Bang?
And you can apply this to all interviews, too
Williams is talking to guys who probably aren’t well versed in anything beyond triple-slash numbers and basic splits. He usually doesn’t answer anything beyond what he’s asked, and I doubt they’re pressing him to give win and run accounting.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
All this is likely accurate. But why was it said?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 20, 2010 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Why was what said?
And who was saying it?
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
by Sox Machine on Oct 20, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
i told you from the beginning of this freak show
that the whole basis of your argument was based on a made for tv reality show. You take a few hours spliced work and turn that into these broad assumptions about a gm with a 9 year track record to just look at and evaluate.
Worst you assign some sort “stamp of approval” on a vague philosophy that has shifted about 3 times in the course of explaining yourself. And there are clear examples on both sides success and failure proving there is no all the way “right way”
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
I have no idea what you're saying in your last paragraph
I simply don’t want KW to be my team’s GM anymore. Simply put. I’d rather see someone who blends scouting with more advanced metrics. Someone who has a better idea of the value of a dollar. Someone who doesn’t let his field manager make personnel decisions. And someone who doesn’t let his manager go around spouting nonsense and telling the fans to fuck off.
So, where do I get the assumption that he doesn’t use advanced metrics in his personnel decisions? From all of the reasons I listed above. If my assumptions are wrong, or if they’re not a big deal, well, okay. Fine. I still want him gone for other reasons.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 20, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Hahn's opinion of KW? What's he going to do, bash him?
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 20, 2010 7:01 AM CDT up reply actions
this is the exact attitude i'm talking about
you can parse this properly but not the club? confirmation bias.
Fireworks: Bang?
Takes me up on it? What else can I say? I'm outta bullets. I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again.
The only way I can justify my beliefs is from what I saw on the Club, though heavily edited it may have been, interviews, what I read in the papers, and the result of personnel decisions that are made. It’s speculation at best. I acknowledge that. But no one has said anything to make me believe otherwise. Your article didn’t say or imply anything about KW using stats himself to make decisions. Or having an understanding of them. No doubt Hahn does, but how much stock does KW take in Hahn’s advice? Why did Fabian say that he prefers simpler stats when talking to these guys? That’s what I’m wanting to know.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Jesus F-ing Christ. Can we please get a delete function.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions
No, there's still plenty left.
Just tryin’ to rack up my comment total, ya know.
"Brent Lillibridge - DH" - July 7th, 2010
"Good luck finding a one two punch like us in the league" - BSLillibridge, July 20, 2010
"Well, at least if she's disappointed on the wedding night you can tell her "Wait till next year!" - South Side Expat
by Shoeless In SC on Oct 19, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions
i wasn't refering to you in particular on that one.
but if you want to say you are guilty of idiocy then knock yerself out.
Not sure about qualification discrepencies
Of course not being an MLB rookie doesn’t necessarily mean they’re not a prospect.
Obviously Phegley’s condition is a huge detraction but talent-wise he’s one of the top prospects in this system.
Believe it or not, the system has been in worse shape.
http://projectprospect.com/article/2008/01/24/chicago-white-sox-top-5
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
poreda and egbert at one and two?
yeesh
Thome Walks-Off Sox, Twists Knife, Continues To Make Sox Brass Look REALLY Stupid - White Sox Season Recap
So we're supposed to feel better that it's been worse before.
Since when are you Hassidic?
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
This list has been a hell of a lot worse
If you go back to 2009, four players have emerged from the White Sox system to make an immediate impact.
Beckham, Sale, Morel, and Viciedo (He counts).
Compared to Borchard, Broadway, and Fields…that’s a phenomenal turnaround.
Theain is the guy I Just can’t stand! pierre is almost as bad,he dose get on base more. If Quntin gets any worse trade him. WE NEED HELP!
he has tyler flowers defense and tyler flowers strikeout rates
without tyler flowers production. see how it worked out for flowers in AAA.
It's hard to project much based on his limited PT so far.
Neither are very likely to stick as ML catchers at this point, but Phegley does have some promise given his strong arm and I think there’s more there as a hitter. Obviously this condition of his halts all that, and this kind of thing seems to be hard to predict as well as control.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Oct 18, 2010 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
i didn't think highly of him last year
and i wasn’t alone in that. this year neither helped nor hurts that status.
Love the sig.
"I have discovered in 20 years of moving around a ballpark, that the knowledge of the game is usually in inverse proportion to the price of the seats. "
Bill Veeck
i for one am a huge fan of viciedo.
dude has all it takes to become a KenWo favorite. Big, Powerful, Caribbean….. oh man. get him in there!
Kenwo4life=ratings
We get it, you like the dark meat.
"In Minnesota, you're gonna see everybody runnin' with a man…" - Troy Aikman
by RWShow on Oct 19, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he's a honorary bro
wait are Cubans black?? These days I’m freaking confused.
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
lol
Yeah okay Im sure I could take him a few places and dispel that REAL quick. :-)
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
actually its an Infiniti
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
Besides thanks to YOU
fuckers we ALL have some cream in our coffee!
Slow breath tdogg…. 40 acres and mule, 40 acres and a mule….
Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
by Tdogg on Oct 19, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 9 recs
This is most excellent.
"In Minnesota, you're gonna see everybody runnin' with a man…" - Troy Aikman
your great-great grandma was a freaky bitch.
by larry on Oct 19, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
NO MEANS NO!

Ramirez’s actual answer: "That’s a stupid question. I’m here to play baseball and that has nothing to do with playing baseball."
Cora’s translation: "I’m just worried about playing baseball. I’m not worried about hair or nothing."
You got your Infiniti.
How are those tribal folks over yonder doing these days? You’re welcome. Sheesh.
pr0FF3ss0r_F4rnsw0rth: but don't commit a gay suicide, because you could be stuck playing for the twins
by South Side Expat on Oct 19, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Like Sally Hemings didn't beg Tom Jefferson for it.
I guess one man's pain in the ass is another’s perfect fit.
by mick10 on Sep 1, 2010 2:39 PM EDT
Excellent work, larry.
Please have Jordan Danks converted to a Major League Baseball quality pitcher in less than one year. I thank you in advance.

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