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Relief reserves in short supply once again

There are a lot of things to take away from Bobby Jenks' six years on the South Side, as I mentioned his eulogy earlier this month. But there's one lesson that the Sox should have learned from Jenks long ago -- like, anywhere from three to five seasons back -- that seems to bite them time and time again, and 2010 was no exception.

You have to go back to Jenks in 2005 to find the last time the Sox had anything resembling a capable reliever waiting in the wings in the upper minors, ready to help when needed at midsummer. Perhaps by coincidence, it's the only time the Sox have had a less hittable bullpen in the second half of the season, compared to the first. OK, the Sox also accomplished the feat in 2007, but that's because they couldn't be worse in the first half if they tried.

Jenks' breakthrough was David Wilder's best contribution to the Sox (and he's milked all the goodwill out of it since). When Kenny Williams wanted to add bullpen help, Wilder said there was no need to trade, because the organization had an ace up its sleeve. I don't know if anybody would imagine that Jenks would be able to pick up where a healthy Dustin Hermanson left off, but at the very least, he was a medium-leverage guy who would be able to pick up the late-inning slack if Neal Cotts or Cliff Politte had to assume the closer duties.

One would think the Sox could, at some point over the following five years, develop a few other legitimate relievers to step in and provide any kind of help. I'm not necessarily talking about somebody who can handle the final three outs on a routine basis -- even getting through the sixth inning would constitute relief.

One would be wrong.

Star-divide

There's a healthy list of in-house or cost-free pitchers the Sox have auditioned for midsummer help: Sean Tracey, Dewon Day, Ehren Wassermann, Lance Broadway, Heath Phillips, Adam Russell, Aaron Poreda, D.J. Carrasco, Esteban Loaiza, Carlos Torres, Randy Williams, Wes Whisler, Jhonny Nunez, Lucas Harrell, Erick Threets, Gregory Infante, Chris Sale.

From that list, the number of pitchers who stuck around for one season or more: Carrasco, and he's a terrific example of what the Sox have lacked in most years.

White Sox bullpens by halves
Year Half BA OBP SLG OPS
2010 First .244 .325 .364 .689
Second .262 .335 .388 .723
2009 First .261 .340 .399 .739
Second .271 .335 .424 .759
2008 First .240 .306 .356 .662
Second .278 .354 .442 .796
2007 First .292 .380 .437 .817
Second .270 .356 .412 .758
2006 First .251 .323 .422 .745
Second .267 .355 .443 .798
2005 First .235 .321 .384 .705
Second .230 .313 .375 .688

Scott Linebrink's injury and subsequent collapse could have submarined the Sox in 2008. Before his shoulder started bothering him in July, Linebrink had allowed just 27 baserunners in 34 innings, and had a sterling 1.32 ERA to show for it. 

With no Linebrink, Ozzie Guillen had only Jenks and Octavio Dotel as reliable right-handed options. And not long after Linebrink hit the DL, Jenks joined him with pain in his non-throwing scapula.

Carrasco wasn't as dynamic as either, but Guillen could give him the ball -- for the two weeks the Sox lacked two top righties, and for the rest of the season. He gave the Sox 38 2/3 innings after joining the club on July 11, 2008, and all were needed as the Sox edged the Twins by one game.

Sadly, Carrasco has no peers in the "Hey, Where'd This Guy Come From?" department, because the scrap heap isn't a place for safe bets. All the other help has come at a cost - trades that are even-up at best (Mike MacDougal, David Riske, Tony Pena, Horacio Ramirez), or the development of Sale. It wouldn't be smart to use the first round of the draft to fill out the bullpen.

(And the Sox don't have a first-round pick next year, anyway.)

Most of the blame falls on Wilder and Duane Shaffer -- Wilder for torching what barely resembled a Latin American scouting system, and Shaffer for stocking up on soft-tossers in the draft. If you ever need a reminder of why Shaffer was fired, look no further than his final draft in 2006. Out of the 50 players selected by the Sox, only 22nd-round pick Kanekoa Texeira has cracked a major-league roster.

But Doug Laumann and Buddy Bell need to start stepping it up too, and Williams needs to let it happen.

Laumann has stumbled in attempts to create cheap bullpen options. Upper-round relief prospects like Drew O'Neil and Leroy Hunt have flopped, and Kyle Bellamy hit a wall in Birmingham last season. Aaron Poreda might not have been long for Chicago either, but at least he helped get Jake Peavy (for whatever that's worth).

There is a next wave in place, though, headlined by Gregory Infante. He could start the season in Chicago, but he walked nine batters over six innings in winter ball, so I wouldn't bank on him. Some time in Charlotte would do him good. Charles Leesman also could get a look in the bullpen when summer rolls around, depending on what happens with Sale, and Nathan Jones has a big fastball-curve combo that seems destined for better results.

Behind them are Addison Reed and Jacob Petricka, but they don't register on the 2011 big-league radar.

This bunch isn't particularly encouraging, and yet they're the best potential relievers the Sox have rounded up in a long time. You could even throw 2005 into the mix, because if Jenks didn't pan out, Jeff Bajenaru was the next-best option.

It all underscores how badly the Sox have to gamble on good health and maintenance, and it's a big reason why they've struggled to maintain true year-in, year-out competitiveness. The Sox may be "All In" in 2011, but they've been that way with the bullpen every year since Jenks surfaced.

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This put into words what I could only feel.

…Okay, goodnight.

"And he rips one into left! Konerko, grand slam!" —Joe Buck, 22 Oct 2005

by mikecws91 on Dec 27, 2010 3:35 AM CST reply actions  

I know the sox were hyping up Anthony Carter a little bit....

but he’s not on Larry’s Top 11…. and now you haven’t mentioned him either… what is wrong with him?

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 3:38 AM CST reply actions  

his stuff isn’t that good. i just don’t see him missing enough major league bats to be effective. he certainly needs time at AAA.

by larry on Dec 27, 2010 8:58 AM CST up reply actions  

This is an excellent piece, Jim.

The “merger” continues to look good from my end.

Re: the piece, relievers as a “fungible” commodity is one thing, but hope is not a management process, either. If there is a glaring weakness above all others in our system it is this. (Well, maybe that’s a stretch.)

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 7:29 AM CST reply actions  

Who wants to bet we sign Juan Cruz?

1. He throws hard (9.1so/9 for career) 2. His last team was KC.

Both things Kenny likes.

by striker on Dec 27, 2010 7:49 AM CST reply actions  

I like your thinking.

But too expensive, even if he only pitched 5.1 ML innings last year. He still made 3.25 mil last year.

"There's too many (bleeping) guys on the computer. It's simple. I say that. Pete Rose never watched a computer. Rod Carew never did. All those hitters, they go out and see the ball, hit it and move on." - Ozzie

by usualsuspect on Dec 27, 2010 11:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Honestly I truly had not considered

the farm system’s failure from the angle of relief pitchers until I read this. Yes relievers are fungible and I don’t want to pay for them but damn that’s brutal.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 8:48 AM CST reply actions  

I didn't want to be reminded of that shitty 2006 draft

Take your whosh like a man, dammit.
by RWShow on Oct 28, 2010 10:33 PM EDT

by Shoeless In SC on Dec 27, 2010 8:55 AM CST reply actions  

isn't it awful?

I remember thinking john shelby might make it but he has fallen off since arriving in Birmingham

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

relief

bringing along young bullpen arms has been a problem in the system for a while, and as bad as some previous player directors and scouts have been, what the heck has buddy bell done besides talk a good game

by Knoxfire30 on Dec 27, 2010 9:08 AM CST reply actions  

Welcome!

I recognize your name from SM posts. I hope you enjoy yourself on this site.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 9:31 AM CST up reply actions  

maybe an obvious question

but is it largely a problem of drafting guys who don’t throw hard enough?

as jim addressed, the organization tried with drew o’neill, but if i remember correctly he was a guy who got by largely on deception (?) and just fell apart when he saw better competition.

by Craig Grebeck on Dec 27, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

bellamy

is the same way, he’s a sidearmer/ submarine guy, correct? he had a lot of success early on too until he got to AA like jim mentioned.

by stopdrop8 on Dec 27, 2010 3:37 PM CST up reply actions  

It's kinda hard to be mad at Bell, I think.

he hasn’t had a whole lot to work with.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 10:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Great post.

This, much more than anything I had to say, serves as a good answer to all the “acquire expensive FA pitchers so we don’t have another bullpen meltdown!” comments on Sox Machine from the past month. Relievers are just so prone to variance, creating depth is the only way to keep a strong bullpen.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refuge

by big_fun on Dec 27, 2010 9:13 AM CST reply actions  

Welcome, Part Deux.

Very cool. Enjoy yourself!

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks. The SB Nation features (e.g. the z-tabbing) are really helpful. In the past I always read SSS unregistered, which makes the comments almost impossible to follow.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Dec 27, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I dig the sig.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

crain ride

didn’t the sox already do that? a big thank you to dave dombrowski and the tigers for joaquin benoit’s $19m contact.

by Scott Skillings on Dec 27, 2010 9:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Didn't we pay Putz >$3MM last year?

And he was damaged goods. I don’t think it was a huge overpay – not like Dotel/Liney in ’08.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 9:43 AM CST up reply actions  

We overpaid for Dotel.

Maybe not “hugely”, but it would be interesting to see if he was worth the contract.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 6:26 AM CST up reply actions  

TY, sir.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

re: crain ride

Yes, but even after that move some commenters on Sox Machine have been calling for either a Soriano signing or a trade for Heath Bell.

a VERY AVERAGE Sox Machine refugee

by big_fun on Dec 27, 2010 9:44 AM CST up reply actions  

I think you could argue that part of the crazy reliever contracts

blame starts with Kenny Williams. I remember people weren’t so pleased with that four year deal for Linebrink.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice to see the Machine regs over

olive branch :-)

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 9:22 AM CST reply actions  

You can tell they are a classier bunch

With their early morning posts. At this early hour, SSS regulars are still too hungover from the night before to look at a computer screen without getting a headache.

by Grinder in Training on Dec 27, 2010 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Speak for yourself.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 9:42 AM CST up reply actions  

It's a bitch not being to drink with all the meds, huh?

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Dec 27, 2010 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

True story:

My wife has pulled up a “remedy” for arthritis (for her – not me, DB) off the Internet. Gin-soaked golden raisins. Soak golden raisins (not dark ones) in gin for 2-3 weeks, let sit, then eat 9 raisins/day. Supposed to do wonders for the aches and pains. Really. I bet Coop put this up on the Internet.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 10:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Flagged.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 11:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Nope - WU is on the list of SSS members who married way over their heads.

I join that list in October…

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on Dec 27, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

By definition, all married men are way over our heads.

“No man is complete until he is married- then he is finished”

"You People Disgust Me" - TAEG

by DrEmilioLizardo on Dec 27, 2010 3:12 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

New idea for Kenny to find more Quarters-

Have Coop and Herm team up to do an infomercial. I totally would buy whatever snake oil they’d shill for.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Dec 27, 2010 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

holy hell i almost forgot about ehren wassermann

i really had some hope he could have been a useful guy for a year or two.

by Craig Grebeck on Dec 27, 2010 11:34 AM CST reply actions  

I'd nearly forgotten about Horacio Ramirez. Which would have been okay.

Funny that all of the parenthesized mentions are KC scraps, or scraps we sent to KC (Pena aside).

biceps-deep in fungible pumpkins.

by homesickalien on Dec 27, 2010 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

We had a nice trade in scrapheap arms with KC for a while...

 I wonder if there wasnt some ponzi scheme going on?

"You People Disgust Me" - TAEG

by DrEmilioLizardo on Dec 27, 2010 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Well we did have Keith Foulke

Wait. He came from SF. Then was traded for Koch but also begot Cotts. Who sold his soul to the devil and helped us win the World Series.

“I love it when a plan comes together!”

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 11:46 AM CST reply actions  

he came in the no good white flag deal.

we traded wilson alvarez and roberto hernandez. that ranks in like the top 50 of worst days of my life.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 11:50 AM CST up reply actions  

All part of the master plan my friend.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

i dont think we coulda caught the indians that year....

but being 3 games back you should have gave it a whirl. that was a sad day in sox history.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 11:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Considering they finished 6 out yep.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

absolutely. of course it would have helped if they had anyone with a brain whatsoever

managing the team. i hate ozzie but he is not the worst manager in the history of the game. I doubt Bevington is either- but he might be in the team picture.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Bevington is the worst.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

this.

Gene Lamont is breathing down his neck.

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Dec 27, 2010 9:12 PM CST up reply actions  

oh there have been some pretty putrid managers... john gibbons is one i can think of off the top of my head.

hal mcrae? buddy bell has one of the worst records i can remember…. gibbons finished his managing career with a .500 record.. bevington and mcrae are surprisingly over .500. Buddy Bell is below .400

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 28, 2010 12:34 AM CST up reply actions  

So arre you judging pitchers' effectiveness on "wins", too?

Bevington had nary a clue and had a bunch of talent. He. Is. The. Worst.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 6:27 AM CST up reply actions  

he was the worst for us....

but in baseball history? i don’t know there may be others that were worse….. Trust me i hated bevington and if we had a half way decent manager we would have done some damage.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 28, 2010 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Jerry has done a lot to help his reputation amongst sox fans

but he has said/done a lot of stupid things since taking over the sox.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Fortunately, none of us on this site have.

Thus, aim your stones and heave!

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

the way they came in with an arrogant attitude,

then put the sox games on pay per view, then threatened to move the team to tampa, then had the nerve to use Disney characters as a promo tool when that whole “we’re moving to florida” campaign was going on, then opening a park that while it is nice now was not that great when it first opened, then his wanting to strike while the team was in first, then the white flag and calling fans crazy…. he has shot himself more times in the foot than he has helped himself.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 12:17 PM CST up reply actions  

im not even a reinsdorf hater like a lot of the guys my dads age are....

but you do have to question some of his thinking/actions.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 12:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but when was the last time he (jr) did something stupid?

I think he learned from his mistakes, removed himself from the public eye a bit and put really good baseball people around him. He’s let his product speak for him. I didn’t like JR as a kid, but there’s little doubt he’s the best owner of a team in the city now.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

While the late 90'

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on Dec 27, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Drat!

While the late 90’s Sox languished under bad managers – the 90’s Bulls were one of the best teams in basketball history.

Six in one hand, yada yada yada

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on Dec 27, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I was debating whether or not to bring the Bulls into it.

I think part of JR’s bad reputation in the city stems from MJ and the fact that MJ always tried to portray Krause and JR as complete idiots who were cheap and fought him at every step.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 2:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Eventually, MJ turned out to be bitter d-bag with a Hitler soulpatch.

The wheel continues tor turn…

The guy at the bank doesn't care how many trophies you've got!

by 67WMAQ on Dec 27, 2010 3:00 PM CST up reply actions  

brought him into the white sox, didn't he?

(i don’t know the whole story on this front).

by craigws on Dec 27, 2010 7:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Krause was a tool

hes the one everyone hated

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Dec 27, 2010 8:00 PM CST up reply actions  

It's actually pretty fascinating and there's dozens of books that show why the whole Jordan-Jackson-Krause relationship soured.

If you like books where athletes bitch to reporters in order to garner favorable attention read The Jordan Rules by Sam Smith (longtime Bulls and NBA writer). A more nuanced take on things is in Playing for Keeps by David Halberstam.

by Ozzie Montana on Dec 27, 2010 9:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Halberstam is an exceptional writer.

Sam Smith? Notsomuch.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 6:28 AM CST up reply actions  

sam smith is a hack. he's a great example of why people don't care about newspapers anymore.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 28, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

He's also an example of why newspapers used to be so valuable.

Smith earned the confidence of a lot of people in a way we really don’t see anymore. Horace Grant and Phil Jackson practically wrote the book for him.

by Ozzie Montana on Dec 28, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Krause also built

a 6 time world champion around a 2 guard. Not exactly easy to do, despite the fact that Jordan was God’s gift to basketball. And Krause might not have been the nicest guy, but MJ went out of his way to make him look like an ass despite the fact he felt entitled to make basketball front office decisions with zero qualifications (a trend than has continued for the last decade, I might add).

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 9:30 PM CST up reply actions  

How is it not easy to build a world champion around God's gift to basketball?

Of course I give the guy credit but not nearly as much as Michael. Here’s how I dole out the credit for the 90s bulls, in order:

1. Michael
2. Phil
3. Reinsdorf
4. Krause

by pooriejay on Dec 27, 2010 10:19 PM CST up reply actions  

and Krause never picked Jordan himself

props for getting Pippen Grant and Rodman though. along with Kukoc and Paxson and Armstrong

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Dec 27, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions  

where is Scottie?

and Grant/Rodman?

I would recommend putting all your thoughts together, then dumping them all out into one solidified stool.
-Shoeless In SC

by PeejSox on Dec 28, 2010 12:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Kukoc

was more important than Rodman, especially in ’98, and I think he might have been more necessary to winning championships than Grant (although about this last claim I am not certain).

It’s weird how everyone just slots Rodman in place of Grant and forgets that the first threepeat team had nobody who comes close to replicating Kukoc, who has to be incredibly underrated by this Chicago-based omission alone.

by Gentleman Jim on Dec 29, 2010 2:37 AM CST up reply actions  

rodman was huge when they beat seattle.

personally i think he was the mvp of that series.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 29, 2010 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

he was more important than Kukoc though to be sure.

i'm eager to see which of you is going to put his jacket down first so as to ensure the other’s dress doesn’t get wet. by craigws

by e-gus on Dec 29, 2010 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, you're gonna need to readjust that for Hall of Famer Scottie.

And look, if you want to know how difficult it is to build a world champion in basketball, ask LeBron how it’s worked out.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 28, 2010 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

AND SCENE!

biceps-deep in fungible pumpkins.

by homesickalien on Dec 28, 2010 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

where's sean kemp?

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 28, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Filming "Cheaper by the Dozen, Part Ten".

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 2:24 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

he stopped running the team like a business

when he found out that the team was a good hobby

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Dec 27, 2010 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

cough Albert Belle

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Dec 27, 2010 2:03 PM CST up reply actions  

i liked albert belle and the signing.

unfortunately 4 months after the signing he gave up on his plan of giving out big contracts and went cheap again.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Jaime Navarro instead of the Rocket

back in 97. I know Clemens has legal problems now but I think he won the Cy Young in TOR that year.

by walterfan34 on Dec 27, 2010 2:26 PM CST up reply actions  

yah that was pretty brutal looking back.

but clemens had shown signs of falling off before that unbelievable run he had…. and now we see why he had that run.

Navarro was in the midst of an impressive run as “horse” and pitched really well for the cubbies.

You could almost justify it at the time. If i was in charge i woulda just kept alex fernandez….that wouldn’t have worked out well either.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

Clemens looked shot when he left the Red Sox. Not sure how he turned it around…but I don’t blame the White Sox for that decision.

by Gentleman Jim on Dec 29, 2010 2:38 AM CST up reply actions  

I think it was HGH

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Dec 29, 2010 11:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I would want to see those numbers leverage and park adjusted

Fangraphs has us tied for 3rd in reliever WAR from ‘05-’10.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 1:19 PM CST reply actions  

Also, I'm not crazy about using FanGraphs WAR for historical pitching evaluation

I care more about the runs they did allow than the runs they should have allowed.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

i think i probably prefer actual ERA given the sample size

but it needs to be park and leverage adjusted, which fangraphs does w/ WAR.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

well there's no difference between FIP and ERA

they’re indistinguishable in this case. so the park and leverage adjustments would be the same. so the Sox have had a perfectly cromulent bullpen in that case.

which isn’t to say that they shouldn’t seriously consider developing their own bullpen talent. relievers are seriously overpaid right now.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Cumulatively speaking, the bullpen has been fine

But I think it’s been a problem in how they’ve shaped those numbers. They have a strong tendency to start out strong, and lose steam in the second half, and they have no reinforcements at the ready.

2010: Thornton, Putz, Jenks and Threets hurt in the second half. Latter two unable to finish the season.

2009: Jenks unable to finish the year, Linebrink had 1.93 ERA in first half, 8.49 in the second. Pena was no good when it mattered.

2008: Linebrink had nothing, Jenks was hurt and Boone Logan went from lights-out to disaster in the blink of an eye in the second half. Thornton was also a little down, but still great.

2006: Cotts, Jenks, McCarthy all significantly weaker in the second half. Riske, too, although he only had 10 first-half innings. MacDougal actually provided a boost.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

That's the point I took out of it.

At the end of the season its nice to have arms like Sale ready to help contribute.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

fwiw, fangraphs has them as 1st in reliever WAR in July from '05-'10

20th in August and 3rd in September. you pretty much have to use a FIP based WAR since it’s <200 IP per bin. from eyeballing, there doesn’t appear to be a lot of correlation from month to month. it looks like other teams are suffering similarly as the Sox. i would guess this means more or less that teams have a finite supply of relievers and either develop their own or buy their arms. teams that you would might guess would do both still end up fluctuating a lot.

i think the biggest problem, period, is that list of crap homemade relievers that completely fizzled. every one of those represents dollars that Kenny could have spent actually adding wins to the team. which is clearly what Hawk means when he says your offense is only as good as the bullpen.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Any way to sort winning teams from losing

Basically.. that by the all-star break, those teams that are going for it know it are and making the adjustments to the bullpen by the end of July.

Basically.. that by the all-star break, those teams that are going for it know it are and making the adjustments to the bullpen by the end of July.Pushing younger pitchers into bullpen roles and trading for veteran relievers, where as the bad teams are just going to let their bullpen fall apart as their young guys continue pitching as starters in the minors and they trade away their veteran arms to the contending teams.

Basically.. that by the all-star break, those teams that are going for it know it are and making the adjustments to the bullpen by the end of July.Pushing younger pitchers into bullpen roles and trading for veteran relievers, where as the bad teams are just going to let their bullpen fall apart as their young guys continue pitching as starters in the minors and they trade away their veteran arms to the contending teams.I’d be more interested to see how the Sox stack up against the teams that are also contending the years that the White Sox are in the race in the second half, than the overall numbers.

by Grinder in Training on Dec 27, 2010 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't...there's a serious dearth in

research on team talent changes in season. Mostly because of how difficult it is. The data is finally starting to be there, so I expect we’ll start seeing it soon.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 3:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Don't forget Cliff Politte

From the magical 2005 to the disastrous 2006 that resulted in his being released in July. Both of those ’05 setup men were one-hit wonders, sadly.

"And he rips one into left! Konerko, grand slam!" —Joe Buck, 22 Oct 2005

by mikecws91 on Dec 27, 2010 4:36 PM CST up reply actions  

it's amazing to me...

that a lot of people are clamoring for the white sox to rush out and sign a reliever. even ignoring the market, you get linebrink’d a whole lot more often than not. even though i don’t realy hate the crain signing (his pedigree more than anything else), if infante was given 60ip, he could probably produce the same value for $400k.

the white sox overall success with relievers the last five years has been excellent, so i’m not entirely surprised by those numbers. matt thornton has been a top 5 RP since he joined the white sox. jack moore was tweeting a couple months back about his fastball and the number of foul balls it creates. and while there’s no data on foul balls, watching thornton pitch more closely, he really does produce a ton of fouls off his fastball.

by SARS on Dec 27, 2010 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

Honestly

besides pleasant memories what the hell have you seen from Dotel that makes you want him? Dude walked 4.50 – 5.2 BB/per 9 over the last 2 years with hr/9 of 1.27. That has disaster written all over it and you’d be doing classic Kenwo rants by mid season.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 2:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I like his ability to strike people out in big situations.

because his strike out rate is so high it lessens the effect of his high walk rate. id much rather sign him for one year than someone else for 3.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I heard a story where he

won a bet or something and Brian anderson had to kiss his feet…. heard the story from Anderson himself. He grew a few notches in my book when i heard that. haha

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I remember something like that

I thought it was with eating chips or something weird like that…

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 2:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Foot taco, I think.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I think "exploitative" falls under porn.

That said, we probably can’t stop the people who enjoy a nice pair of spikes.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 7:34 PM CST up reply actions  

you're on fire tonight!

If is is one handed shitting. by winningugly

by mick10 on Dec 27, 2010 9:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Literally. Careful not to fart!

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Dec 27, 2010 9:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep. There was guac involved.

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Dec 27, 2010 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

You mean like big situations

that resulted from you walking the bases loaded?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

And yeah sure

I’d prefer 1 or 2 year deals too but, I don’t enjoy 2-3 run homers in pennant chases.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

he did give up some homers

but if he didn’t give up the homer he was solid. i think he did a very credible job here and i bet he does pretty good for the blue jays.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh snap

friendly hot dog wager
Crain vs Dotel next year?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

no im not going to do that.

i like the crain signing…. i just like dotel too. i want em both. color me greedy

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

id take dotel over pena

or infante though

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 2:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Thinking about Pena as 5th starter

until (whether) Peavy’s back. Means finding another BP arm (Dotel?) instead of a temporary fifth SP type like Freddy.

So another way to say it: “would you rather have Dotel than Freddy”?

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Dec 27, 2010 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

given the way the roster is shaping up

yes i think it would be more beneficial to the Sox (and to freddy) to have Dotel over Freddy this year. That is assuming peavy can go. as far as pena starting… id rather not. just throw Harrell out there and skip him when you have the april off days.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 28, 2010 12:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Agree on the Crain pedigree

Linebrink had already shown signs of collapse in Milwaukee before we overpaid for him, notwithstanding the initial success (quite possibly due to the new league). The guy did build his reputation in spacious San Diego also.

So while I have some trepidation on the dollars and length of the Crain signing, it’s not as angsty for me as Linebrink was.

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Dec 27, 2010 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks for this

Cool. Okay maybe Rizzo is not quite the dirt bag I thought but the FO still gave him a black eye for the episode. And it was still just loony to keep Dunn anyway.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

it worked out for the better

half a season of Dunn for Hudson would have suuuuuucked

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed.

Seems like the Sox really benefited from the chaos in the Nats offices.

Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!

by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Dec 27, 2010 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

This is good.

And makes a lot of sense, in terms of filling in some of the angry gaps.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I never bought the

“how do we know there was a deal “kind” of in place stuff?"

KW was just too damn mad. I really felt some reneging went on…

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Is Carl Pavano worth

10-11 million a year for 3? Or better yet will he continue to be worth it?

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 4:37 PM CST reply actions  

Is that a rhetorical question?

I hope so.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 27, 2010 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

lol

Well that’s what he wants!

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 4:42 PM CST up reply actions  

With the pornstache of course.

I’d also really like to know what the hell Boras is doing with Beltre. I honestly don’t understand.

Does UZR take into consideration the JumpThrow?

by Tdogg on Dec 27, 2010 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

do you think he can get 6 WAR in 3 seasons?

it’s not a terribly high asking price.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 5:33 PM CST up reply actions  

i'd guess if he makes it

he’ll do the majority of it in his first season. but if his fastball falls off much more, he’s going to be in trouble.

Fireworks: Bang?

by colintj on Dec 27, 2010 7:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Hope someone like Washington thinks so

I’d love to see him out of the division.

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Dec 27, 2010 5:51 PM CST up reply actions  

another bullpen guy i somewhat was interested in signed

takashi saito to the brew crew for 1 yr/2 mil plus incentives.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 27, 2010 5:34 PM CST reply actions  

Brewers looking very interesting

"Hawk Harrelson: Annoying even the hearing impaired": Teahenny Penny paraphrasing Chisoxfan1473

by NorthSidePaulie on Dec 27, 2010 5:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd like the Brewers to hit the postseason, but I'm guessing the Reds again.

It’s a toss-up.

"My role hads not changed: Old punching bag." -winningugly

by Uribe Down on Dec 27, 2010 7:59 PM CST up reply actions  

if chapman lives up to their expectations he would change things.

they need to fuck off with the ‘cuban missile’ nickname though. it has even made it to his baseball reference page.

by craigws on Dec 27, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Whoa. I did not know that. Unacceptable.

"My role hads not changed: Old punching bag." -winningugly

by Uribe Down on Dec 27, 2010 8:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Let them have it.

“Che”. Says it all.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 6:29 AM CST up reply actions  

this is an elaborate ploy to get 'slash' back in the mix.

Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be.

by MarketMaker on Dec 28, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I think the reds will stay within striking distance

But I think the Dusty factor catches up to them this year. I could see all of their top 4 starters spending time on the DL.

by pooriejay on Dec 27, 2010 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

seems as though they have enough average guys to plug in by way of replacement.

i will be interested to see if the ‘dusty factor’ rings true. he wasn’t really given the chance to overuse chapman last year.
did he do the same with the giants? could just be he really wanted to screw it to the cubs.

by craigws on Dec 28, 2010 12:00 AM CST up reply actions  

If there is a guy

who got Dusty’d it was Arthur Rhodes and he’s with Texas now. They got exceptional numbers from him though and he’s gone. They had a bunch of walk off wins and scrubs performing really well.

by Salty on Dec 28, 2010 7:55 AM CST up reply actions  

saito

doesnt fit the hard throwing late 20s, early 30s mold that KW generally has gone after to fill the bullpen. what are the odds we can sign rauch, delcarmen or farnsworth to a similar contract?

by stopdrop8 on Dec 27, 2010 7:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Too many "How's the weather down there?" jokes.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 7:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

left early for the all star breaking after getting shelled, right?

Since then he has gotten a pretty sweet neck tattoo though. maybe that works in his favor.

I would recommend putting all your thoughts together, then dumping them all out into one solidified stool.
-Shoeless In SC

by PeejSox on Dec 28, 2010 12:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Reminds me of Jack Walsh in "Midnight Run".

“Why aren’t you popular with the Chicago police department, Jack?”

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 6:30 AM CST up reply actions  

no farnsworth.

he’s the only guy id contemplate taking bukvich over.

Kenwo4life=ratings

by KenWo4LiFe on Dec 28, 2010 12:40 AM CST up reply actions  

But The Dugout would never be the same.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Dec 28, 2010 3:01 AM CST up reply actions  

wouldn't the lesson of Jenks

departing be that finding relievers can be a matter of luck sometimes. he acted his way out of the Angels organization by off the field behavior. he basically fell into the Sox lap. that being said, maybe KW can pull off a shrewd waiver claim or rule 5 pitcher to throw in the ’11 pen.

The bases were drunk, and I painted the black with my best yakker. But blue squeezed me, and I went full. I came back with my heater, but the stick flares one the other way and chalk flies for two bases. Three earnies! Next thing I know, skipper hooks me and I'm sipping suds with the clubby

by moroots on Dec 27, 2010 7:11 PM CST reply actions  

I wouldn't say that's particular to Jenks or the bullpen.

Look at Josh Hamilton. Basically the same story times a billion. That’s just scouting and a lot of luck.

With regards to the bullpen, they’ve tried to sort through other teams’ rejects for the last five years. I guess you could count Thornton in the spring of ‘06, but since then, Carrasco’s the only thing close to Jenks. That’s not really a sound plan of attack anymore.

THIS NEW ARRANGEMENT SHOULD BE POOTY GOO

by Jim Margalus on Dec 27, 2010 7:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Santos is another one, pure luck there

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Dec 27, 2010 8:04 PM CST up reply actions  

White Sox bullpen woes (i.e., lack of minor league development)

Oakland A’s GM Billy Beane chlortles in “Money Ball” how he snookered then green/new WSox GM Kenny Williams into drafting (one batter and done), situational reliever Royce Ring and passing on Joe Blanton (who the A’s then gleefully snapped up a few picks later)? That should have been enough to fire then Scouting Director Duane Schaffer (a holdover from the woefully depressing GM Ron Schueler years), right then and there, but the always loyal Reinsdorf blocked Kenny canning his useless arse. Despite Schaeffer’s departure, however, the White Sox farm system continues to rank right near the bottom of the major league barrel. That poses the question, “why hasn’t Kenny done something about it?’”.

Is there another team in MLB that can boast so many first round draft pick busts over the eight years preceding the drafts of Beckham and Sale during Kenny’s watch? Millions of dollars down the old tubes on the likes of Kris Honel, soft throwing Lance Broadway and so many more total busts! As for the White Sox Latin America scouting operation? Kenny I’m sure got Krumbs Krause jammed down his throat by Reinsdorf, and we all know that the only thing that Krumbs excels as it paranoia.

by So Cal WSox fan on Dec 27, 2010 8:55 PM CST reply actions  

you had me until that last sentence

The only glove he needs is a batting glove. - RWShow on Adam Dunn signing.

by blackoutsox on Dec 27, 2010 9:04 PM CST up reply actions  

well i must have missed the page where billy beane tricked KW into drafting royce ring

and as for other teams crapping the bed in the first round, a great deal of other teams are in the same boat. just because you’re a first-round talent doesn’t mean you pan out.

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Dec 27, 2010 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

oh there definitely was

but they were targeting low risk, medium ceiling guys. that seems to be in the past now.

When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.

by U-God on Dec 27, 2010 9:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Congrats on hitting MLB Trade Rumors with this one.

It even says “Jim Margalus of South Side Sox”.

"And he rips one into left! Konerko, grand slam!" —Joe Buck, 22 Oct 2005

by mikecws91 on Dec 28, 2010 12:18 AM CST reply actions  

According to plan.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 6:32 AM CST up reply actions  

According to Jim?

"It's like an elephant rodeo in there."

by RWShow on Dec 28, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

FJB.

busy weaving laurel wreath for k dawg and JR. These guys are straight up gangsta this year. -LT_sox_fan on Dec 15, 2010

by South Side Expat on Dec 28, 2010 12:12 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Though I am laughing,

I feel bad. I hit against JB in fantasy camp. I actually fouled off a few before striking out. I couldn’t even touch Dotson. JB was all over the place wild.

I hate Christmas. No baseball. by mikecws91

by winningugly on Dec 28, 2010 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Soriano?

Anyone think theres any chance of landindg soriano? That would solidify the pen in a heartbea. Definatly goes with the “all in” approach as well..

by NewSox on Jan 5, 2011 2:22 AM CST reply actions  

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