Metaprimer: wOBA
It's pretty egregious that I've never sat down and explained any of the stats I use on a regular basis. Having been duly browbeaten by larry, I'm giving it a go. Fortunately for everyone, better/smarter folks have already taken a shot at such things. I'll do as many of these as there's interest for, so let me know. Links and quotes, interspersed with commentary to follow. I'll do my best to make sure liberal arts kids don't feel out of place.
Note: all of the pieces quoted have much much more at the link, including comments sections. So click through, dadgummit.
Note The Second: I got an email indicating that any time I thought I was quoting Scott from WFNY, I was actually quoting Jon Steiner, whom WFNY brought on to do sabr-style articles such as the one linked.
Why begin with wOBA? I use it a lot, for one, so this will hopefully lead to readers understanding what I'm going on about. But, second, it's not really that complicated. wOBA, essentially, is runs/PA. The rate at which the batter produced runs for his team. What else matters? Runs are the bottom line in baseball.
But before we get to wOBA, it's worth justifying the necessity of a new stat. So let's look at what folks have typically used to evaluate hitters. I'm going to ignore runs and RBI, but Scott covered them too.
Batting Average
The first of three components to the oft-used triple slash AVG/OBP/SLG. Here's Scott at Waiting For Next Year (inexplicably not a Cubs blog):
Batting average measures the rate at which a player hits his way safely onto base per official AB. Seems straightforward, simple, and useful. In fact, it is. But it certainly misses some important components of a hitter’s job. First, it does not account for the value of the walk, since a walk is not counted as an official AB. And, believe it or not, a walk can be quite valuable. Second it doesn’t account for the difference between a double and a single, or the difference between a single and HR for that matter. It’s a good stat that can tell us a good deal about a player, but it obviously isn’t a solid measuring stick if it tells us that Paul O’Neill’s 1997 season (.324 avg) was more valuable than Jim Thome’s (.286 avg). Keep going.
Batting average just doesn't tell us a whole lot. Avoiding outs via hits is important, but there are other ways to get on base and there are very different kinds of hits. Not too many folks will argue a single should be counted the same as a home run, but that's exactly what average does. If we want to describe a hitter's worth to his team, we need to be able to make these kinds of distinctions. And, moreover, think about how precisely we can make them. A home run with the bases empty is worth 1 run. Exactly how much more or less is a single worth in the same circumstances? And how often are the bases empty anyway?
So batting average tells us something. But more is needed.
On Base Percentage
Scott again:
If your team doesn’t make outs, you score an infinite number of runs. It’s hard to lose when you score infinity runs!
Not making outs is a big deal. Baseball games don't end after some period of time, they end once a certain number of outs has been attained. Tango says much the same:
So, OBP becomes the stat of choice. It describes each PA rather clearly: safe or out. And that’s what baseball is about at its core. OBP, while not as popular as BA yet, has staying power. While the continued existence of BA is iffy (a large part of its being is simply inertia), OBP will always exist. If it didn’t exist, it would have been invented. BA enjoys no such fundamental truth.
If you want to keep scoring runs, avoid outs! And on base percentage measures the rate at which a given hitter reaches base safely per plate appearance. So its import is fairly obvious in that light. On the other hand, it doesn't differentiate between ways of reaching base. Which leads to...
Slugging
Slugging has the same problem as batting average in that it considers hits but not walks or HBP. But it does differentiate between hits. Since SLG = TB/ABs, singles are counted as 1, doubles 2, etc. So we have two measures, one that can't tell between different kinds of hits and one that excludes other ways on base. I wonder what could be next.
CPPB is the standard in candy quality measurement
On Base Plus Slugging (OPS)
So, obviously, the thought behind adding OBP to SLG is to cancel out the obvious downsides to each I've mentioned. OBP can't tell the difference between a single and a home run? No problem. SLG forgot about walks? Psh, whatevs. Add 'em together, problem solved. But just like arsenic turned out to be the secret ingredient in Reese's*, OPS has its own dark secrets.
First, there's the denominator problem. Here's Scott:
The problems here are less obvious to the casual reader, but for starters, we’re adding metrics that are measuring different samples: slugging is measured in ABs and OBP is measured in PAs. Therefore, the result is a bit difficult to interpret.
And now Joe, from River Avenue Blues:
The denominator in OBP is plate appearances, while the denominator in SLG is at-bats. True, they’re expressed in decimal format, and that might make it easier to slap them together. That doesn’t mean it is correct.
This doesn't exactly explain why it's a problem, only that it is. Here's my half-assed** explanation: If we wanted to add 1/2 to 1/3, we'd have to find the lowest common denominator, which then changes the numerator. That step is not taken in mashing together OBP and SLG, so the weighting of OBP to SLG should be somewhat affected. Here's Joe again:
OBP is almost always going to be lower than SLG, because OBP is binary. You either reached base or you didn’t, meaning you get a 1 if you succeed and a 0 if you fail. SLG, on the other hand, measures total bases, so a player receives 4 for a home run, 3 for a triple, 2 for a double, and 1 for a single. And, again, it works with a smaller denominator, since at-bats is a subset of plate appearances.
That gets at it to some degree, I think. But let's go on, since that's not really the biggest problem with OPS anyway. That would be weighting OBP and SLG equally. Which is to say, OBP is half the equation, SLG the other half. But that doesn't value OBP properly. Scott:
But the underlying flaw in OPS is even more interesting: a player’s ability not to make an out is actually more valuable than a player’s ability to hit for power (slugging) by a factor of about 2 to 1. So if Player A has an OBP of .385 and a slugging percentage of .400, he is more valuable than Player B, who has an OBP of .360 but a slugging of .415, even though they both posted OPS’s of .785. Why?
Michael Lewis answered this by asking his readers in Moneyball to think about which team will score more runs, the one that posts 1.000 OBP or the one that posts 1.000 SLG. Like Scott said, if you never make an out, you'll never stop scoring. So we should probably give getting on base more weight than on base percentage. But Scott was specific, mentioning a 2:1 ratio. Where'd he get that figure?
[EDIT 2/18: Updated to include useful comments]
Sky Kalkman here:
True, there’s the denominator problem. And you need to weight OBP more. But it’s not because OBP is more important (as shown by regressing OBP and SLG against team scoring). It’s because one point of OBP means more than 1 point of SLG. Basically, you need to spread OBP values out so that a gap of 1 point of adjusted OBP means as much as 1 point of SLG. And then I’d talk about how (if you ignore denominators), you’re basically doing… OPS That’s obviously not a bad estimate, but is a HR really worth five times as much as a walk? Is a triple twice as good as a 1B? Isn’t it just a little too convenient that the relative worth of these events lines up like this? Wouldn’t it be nice to know how valuable each thing is to the others, exactly? Whoila, linear weights and wOBA.
= OBP + SLG
= times on base + total bases
= (BB + 1B + 2B + 3B + HR) + (1B + 2×2B + 3×3B + 4xHR)
= BB + 2×1B + 3×2B + 4×3B + 5xHR
Which echoes the comment below by Tango:
Basically, when you add OBP and SLG, you are getting something in-between the weiights of OBP and SLG. wOBA simply tells you what those weights actually should be.
Enter Linear Weights
This whole thing basically comes down to how to weight certain events (outs, singles, walks, etc.) in terms of their contributions to runs scored. OBP weights a single the same as a home run. SLG neglects to weight walks and OPS weights OBP more or less the same as SLG. And the implication, if there is to be a new stat, is that this weighting is not done correctly.
So we need to look at how teams actually score runs and how, say, an additional triple contributes to runs. As Tango lists, there are multiple ways to compute this. But at its most basic, it's a matter of run expectancy. If there are runners on first and second with two outs and the batter walks, how many runs should you expect your team to gain? Well, if you take a play by play database of past MLB seasons, you can compute the average change in runs scored after a given event in a given base/out state. If you know how often on average a given base/out state will occur, then you can compute the average value of an event independent of the base/out state.*** Here's Tango:
There are 24 base-out situations that a batter faces (8 different combinations of men on base, and the 3 outs). Each of those 24 situations has a particular Run Expectancy (RE). For example, at the start of each inning, the average team will score on average 0.56 runs. This is simple enough to figure. If the average team scores 5 runs per 9 inning game, then the average R/I is 5/9 or 0.56. To fill out the rest of the matrix, you need play-by-play data, or a simulator. For example, with the bases loaded and 0 outs, the average team will score 2.4 runs from that point on, to the end of the inning.
Every Plate Appearance (PA) has a start state and end state. That is, before the PA, the batter is facing one of the 24 base-out states, and after the PA is over, there is (possibly) a new base-out state. Since each base-out state has its own RE, the difference in RE (plus any run scored) is the run impact of that batting event that caused that change in state.
For example, with a man on 2B, and 0 outs, the RE for that situation (the start state) is 1.2 runs . If the batter hits a double, the RE for the end state is of course 1.2 runs. As well, a run scored. So, the run impact of this particular batting event is 1.0 runs. If you have a man on 1B with 1 out, the RE is 0.57 runs. A double-play brings us to the end of the inning, and an RE of 0 runs. The double-play in this case is worth -.57 runs.
Sweet We've got the weights. We can't be too far from...
Weighted On Base Average (wOBA)
Tom Tango, the creator of wOBA, on how he did it:
From the preceding section, we know the run values of each event. For example, we know that the run value of the HR is 1.4 runs above average, and 1.7 runs above the run value of the out. In rate measures, like OBP, the value of the out in the numerator is zero. If we recast the run values of the most common events relative to the out (rather than relative to the result of an average plate appearance), we get the following:
HR 1.70, 3B 1.37, 2B 1.08, 1B 0.77, NIBB 0.62.Those numbers are the values of each of our events (again, relative to an out, which now has a value of zero). If we apply these weights to the statistics of a league-average hitter, and divide by plate appearances, we end up with a rate of almost 0.300. This is a fairly convenient number for an average, but we can do better. Since we like OBP as a measure of a batter’s effectiveness, let’s scale our new statistic so that the resulting values are similar to OBP values. It turns out that, if we add 15% to this 0.300 figure, we get the league-average OBP. Therefore, we will add 15% to the weights of each event and define our new statistic as follows:
(0.72xNIBB + 0.75xHBP + 0.90x1B + 0.92xRBOE + 1.24x2B + 1.56x3B + 1.95xHR) / PA
Uh-oh. Scaaaary numbers. How about Alex Rimington:
The run value of each outcome is compared to the run value of an out, which is defined as zero. (We're ignoring the notion of "productive" outs, because we're only concentrating on the person at bat.) The values are then multiplied by 15 percent to scale wOBA so that average wOBA is defined as equal to league OBP. As Tom Tango says: "In other words, an average hitter is around 0.340 or so, a great hitter is 0.400 or higher, and a poor hitter would be under 0.300."
MLB average wOBA has actually been around .330 or so the past couple seasons. Tango thought it would be more user friendly to scale wOBA to OBP. This means that wOBA isn't exactly Runs/PA. But finding runs contributed isn't that hard, either:
Runs Above League Average = (wOBA - lgAVGwOBA)/1.15*PA
The 1.15 divisor undoes the inflation done to put wOBA on an OBP scale. Aside from that, it's pretty straightforward. "Above" indicates that you should subtract league average. The basic form for wOBA is runs/PA, so to get runs you have to multiply by PA. If this doesn't make sense to someone who passed high school math, it's because I can't write. And that's what the other links are for, so no excuses. You are now required to know what wOBA is.
*Totally, definitely accurate. Wikipedia said so.
**Explaining this concisely in a way that makes sense to me and the reader is proving difficult. Most folks seem to skip over this as obvious, prima facie, so maybe I'm missing something stupid/apparent.
***Hence "linear" in linear weights. Each marginal event is worth the same regardless of the situation (it goes up linearly, instead of being changed by the situation). This is not exactly accurate, but it's close enough.
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Great read, thanks colin!
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
no jump, huh?
you magnificent bastard
"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik
He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST
totally forgot about that
as usual.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Colin: douchey Econ student extraoridinnaire!
But seriously though, what I’ve read so far is excellent. Can’t wait to finish at work.
Thanks!
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 8:20 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Really?
I thought you were studying econ. I suppose that makes the LA comment more acceptable.
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Nice job colin
I wonder how long it is before I’m banned from DRaysbay
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
I'm ready to go
With this, the shiny new copy of BP that arrived yesterday and the boxed set of The Wire that I got for my birthday, let’s get those pitchers and catchers reporting.
Thanks for the hard work.
by gar ridge pride on Feb 19, 2010 8:54 AM CST reply actions
My BP came yesterday also
Quickly read the White Sox section. It really is surprising how far BP has come in its opinion of KW and the White Sox org in general.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
You better hurry up and not sleep/do anything other than watch The Wire
That’s like 55 hours that you need to watch before Spring Training.
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 9:13 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i am 100 percent behind this course of action
if you really want to be taken seriously on SSS, you’ll do it.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
i'm supposed to take SSS seriously?
Lurking since 2006
by boyonthedock on Feb 19, 2010 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
if you aren't flipping out every time someone quibbles with your sig
you just don’t have the passion and intensity required for SSS
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
it's not looking good
run some stairs. you’ll find inspiration.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I'll start a pot of coffee as soon as i get home
I’ve got no idea why its taken so long because I was such a fan of Simon’s previous show “Homicide”. Possibly because I don’t want to give up on my loyalty to “Deadwood” which I’ve been telling people for years was the best show ever. Till then …
"I wonder how cavalier your attitude'll be when a pig is gnawing through your vitals." - Farnum
by gar ridge pride on Feb 19, 2010 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
I finally got it on netflix at the beginning of winter to check it out because of the uproar in this bitch.
I watched the entire series as fast as the mailman could bring the dvds back and forth, even commandeering the wifes half of the picks to get two at a time. Be prepared to dive right in.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
Just got through rewatching Season 1: Episodes 1, 2 & 3
You get pulled right into the world that they created, there’s no escaping is there? Watching DVD or On Demand is especially addictive, you just keep rolling right through it and the hell with sleeping.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
I've got to see these
Everyone at work talks about it non-stop and now you guys.
The Cubs are not a baseball team. They are a baseball-themed marketing company that hosts frat parties for post grads and tourists.
Yes Yes and Yes
This is very good and needed for lots of folks. Is there a way to keep the series on the main page and linkable?
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
Most excellent!
As a wise man once said…
“He doesn’t work often, but when he does…”
"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "
wow. ginger men can't jump.
good read! this non-LA major salutes your efforts, though now there’s less of an excuse to not know shit in a discussion.
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
there we go.
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
by thatshortkid on Feb 19, 2010 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
Query:
Is there a stat that is similar to slugging in that it takes the number of bases produced, but divides it by plate appearances instead? That way, you could add walks to it and they would count the same as a single.
Like pizza? Me too.
Check out my pizza review site.
well, the thing is
that’s still not getting the weighting exactly right. singles are worth more than walks. doubles aren’t worth half as much as HR. and since we know linear weights, why not use them?
…also, iirc, there is/was such a stat. somebody asked Tango in a thread somewhere (it might be linked in the post) and i think i’m mostly repeating his answer there.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
yeah
once you add getting picked off/caught stealing its perfect.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
honestly
i kind of don’t like that aspect. i think it’s probably easier for users to understand if we have hitting rate stat, a baserunning rate stat, a fielding rate stat, etc. laying out the components for WAR just looks better to me.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I like its inclusion because once you are cs your chances of scoring are 0%.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
ok
i realize it won’t predict runs, but i’d like to see it even if runs is the bottom line. the problem with these weighted stats is that they’re for all of baseball, right? i mean, i don’t have a better solution, but it reminds me of the colts – patriots 4th down call. people were saying it was statistically right, barely, but that was for the whole NFL. the colts score at a higher clip than most teams. using just the colts offense against a beat-up (right?) NE defense would probably have shown that was a bad move.
Like pizza? Me too.
Check out my pizza review site.
ah gotcha
well, the weights are context independent because we assume that, for the most part, hitters and pitchers approach the game the same way regardless of score. and while that’s largely true, it isn’t entirely. common example: bases loaded in the ninth: a walk is as good as a HR and both the hitter and pitcher know this. which is why Tango advocates for WPA/LI in such cases.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Total bases + walks / plate appearances
Isn’t that the rarely used “Total Average” stat?
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
i think that's what i remember reading
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Good work, kid.
A bright future lies ahead of you.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
Hmm...
Good way to make the fans feel better when they lose him to their AL central rival. They can say they gave it the ol’ college try. We’ll have to build a statue of Johnny Damon’s wife if he chooses the Sox over the Tigers.
by Grinder in Training on Feb 19, 2010 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
Colon did last year.
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Why do I feel like you are practically provoking me to post a CH pic? ;)
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
have you guys seen the ridiculous commercial Jim posted at SM?
http://soxmachine.com/soxmachine/2010/02/19/win-or-die-trying-redefined/
i’m still trying to wrap my head around it
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
if you went to a liberal arts college you would get it.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
Nice read
I swear I’ve seen this though, have you linked to it recently?
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
Great explanation
talked with a coworker about this a few weeks ago, trying to figure out how wOBA is actually calculated.
wOBA is too confusing
for my mind to wrap around this morning. I’ll stick with OPS and OPS+.
Now, I may not be great at math, but I do know that .360+.415 does not equal .785.
So if Player A has an OBP of .385 and a slugging percentage of .400, he is more valuable than Player B, who has an OBP of .360 but a slugging of .415, even though they both posted OPS’s of .785. Why?
One could argue that player A is more valuable than player B because his OPS is higher too.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 19, 2010 10:54 AM CST reply actions
that's a typo, obvs
wOBA is runs/PA. that’s all you really need to know.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
So I can take from it that an average player scores .330 runs per plate appearance?
As long as I know the ranges for bad-poor-average-good-great players I don’t need to understand how it’s computed :)
(Also I know it’s a typo I was just bustin ya balls)
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 19, 2010 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Yes! That is correct
Its fairly close to the same bad to great scale as OBP. Use it like its an old friend!
That's not exactly correct.
it turns out that when you divide runs by PA, you get something that scales more like batting average than obp. so tango multiplied the result by 1.15 to make it look more like obp. i think this was also to differentiate between Clay Davenport’s EqA, which does basically the same thing (though I don’t know the specifics) but is on a batting average scale. All this is in the post.
“As long as I know the ranges for bad-poor-average-good-great players I don’t need to understand how it’s computed :)”
That was in there too, fwiw.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Baseball:
Not as linear as you might think…
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
by winningugly on Feb 19, 2010 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
wOBA, after you divide by 1.15, gives you the number of runs you generate, over and above what an out generates.
Outs actually have “negative” runs, because they reduce the potential of scoring a run for the guys on base and future batters (less batters for the inning).
If you want something denominated in Runs, then you want Runs Created or Linear Weights. The value of wOBA is strictly on the basis of it’s scaling.
I don’t understand the “too confusing” part. In SLG, the weights are like this:
1: 1B
2: 2B
3: 3B
4: HR
in OBP, it’s
1: BB
1: 1B
1: 2B
1: 3B
1: HR
wOBA says it’s roughly this:
0.7: BB
0.9: 1B
1.25: 2B
1.6: 3B
2.0: HR
Basically, when you add OBP and SLG, you are getting something in-between the weiights of OBP and SLG. wOBA simply tells you what those weights actually should be.
by tangotiger on Feb 19, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm getting there... I can feel I'm close!
But does that mean a HR (2.0) is only about twice as valuable as a single (0.9)?
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 20, 2010 8:48 PM CST up reply actions
It seems to me that the HR would be a lot more valuable
since it is actually scoring a run regardless if anyone is on base. a single only scores a run if someone is only 2nd or 3rd (typically, unless there’s a series of errors). Also, a HR possibly scores 4 runs, while a single scoring 4 runs is impossible (again, unless there are errors?). A single also sets up the double play. That’s why I would think a HR would be worth more than twice as much.
"God knows I gave my best in baseball at all times and no man on earth can truthfully judge me otherwise."
by Shoeless In SC on Feb 21, 2010 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
when it spits out a value like that
it’s taking the probabilities of those events occurring and summing them to give you the run value. so things like that are already considered.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Sort of.
The key is “relative to the out”. Relative to the out, a HR is twice as valuable as a single.
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#Whitesox front office to be featured in “The Club”. @MLBNetwork reality series to follow Jerry Reinsdorf, Kenny Williams & Ozzie Guillen
http://twitter.com/VictorRojas29/status/9338573792
apparently the series begins july 4.
Tentative episode titles
PILOT: White Sox Business
Ep 2: Losing Johnny Damon
Ep 3: 50 cents
Ep 4: A Ken Williams Problem
fixed
Episode 1: The Target
Episode 2: The Detail
Episode 3: The Buys
Episode 4: Old Cases
by Sox-35th on Feb 19, 2010 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
i cant wait for the reunion show
like seinfeld in curb your enthusiasm. frank will come back
Hell Yesss
by Grinder Rule #42 on Feb 19, 2010 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
Reinsdorf probably agreed to this
When he realized he needed more revenue, now that he was paying Damon’s salary.
Really though, this is pretty cool. It should be interesting, depending on what they let us see. I’ll definitely be watching it.
by Grinder in Training on Feb 19, 2010 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
jesus.
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
Awesome, colin. About time you put your dick down and contributed something. I may even read this some time.
:)
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
Totally.
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Do you happen to know if the RE for any given situation/outcome stable across eras/parks/teams?
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 11:44 AM CST reply actions
wOBA is not park adjusted
but it can be. that’s part of how fangraphs generates its WAR for position players. and the method works regardless. so as long as you have a database for the years you want, the REs will work. and if you’re looking at past wOBAs on fangraphs, i’m sure they’re sufficiently adjusted for era.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
thanks
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Pretty good read
It seems that the baseball world will be converted to more useful statistics in a sooner time than I expected. Sabermetrics are becoming widespread, and people are blogging about them pretty often, like here.
"If A.J. is not on your team, you hate him. If A.J. is on your team, you hate him less."
-Ozzie Guillen
i tried to infuse the thing with links for that reason
hopefully i said it at least as well or better than everyone else, but there are plenty of different explanations. one of them has to work for the person in question.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
And the problem with this whole post is that it's too good/thought provoking. It does not lend itself to trashy comments such as:
Would Nick Costanza ask Tiger Woods for an autograph?
"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "
by Chiburb on Feb 19, 2010 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Racist.
My devil is white.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
by winningugly on Feb 19, 2010 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, exactly
I’m thinking we need another useless Damon update on here. As MLBtraderumors goes, we go.
"If A.J. is not on your team, you hate him. If A.J. is on your team, you hate him less."
-Ozzie Guillen
by Nick Costanza on Feb 19, 2010 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, it was pretty thorough
I have been exposed to these stats before, but an explanation like this was likely needed. It did a good job of making me understand completely, so thanks for that.
"If A.J. is not on your team, you hate him. If A.J. is on your team, you hate him less."
-Ozzie Guillen
by Nick Costanza on Feb 19, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
high praise indeed for our young colin.
A great description here. Remember when I said you need to have a thread to the story? This fellow had a story to tell, and told it well.
yeah i just saw that
i feel pretty darn cool
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
first sean white and now colin.
is this ginger apreciation month?
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
!

"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik
He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST
Is that audrina???
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 19, 2010 3:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Why is he hanging out with the Allman Brothers?
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
Looks like fucking Carrot Top.
I’m sure he’s got a really nice personality.
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
You may get a job yet.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
by winningugly on Feb 19, 2010 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
And from Sky:
“Also, it’s a phenomenal article. That’s how I think primers should be written. Not "what is wOBA" but "why wOBA".
"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "
OT: Dontrelle
Pretty sad stuff, although if the anxiety disorder is what’s largely responsible for his decline I’m surprised Illitch isn’t personally cramming Paxil down his throat.
not entirely responsible.
I remember a tv show when he first bust on the scene, twib or sc or something, they were at his place in florida. he was talking about his diet(twizzlers) and exercise program(didnt really have one) and I remember thinking to stay away from him in my keeper league.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
good article though
Det News >>>>>>>> Det Free Press
and yeah, i couldn’t help but feel for the guy.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
The more I think about it the more it bugs me
If he had blew out his elbow he wouldn’t refuse Tommy John surgery because it’s in God’s hands.
right, but that's because that treatment is pretty well established
particularly in baseball. it’s normal to get TJ.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
anxiety medications (like many medications that attempt to alter "mood", etc.) often have rather nasty side effects.
and considering the way such disorders are diagnosed, one can certainly question whether it’s necessary for him to take medication, let alone whether he actually has a disorder. i think i’m not going to attempt to analyze something we know next to nothing about.
completely agree
last i read, for example, SSRIs have various effects, but reducing depression better than a placebo may not be one of them.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
agree as well, with the bit about analyzing something we know nothing about
but SSRIs are used to treat depression more than anxiety disorders. The two are sometimes bound up, sometimes completely discrete.
Wait a you lost me at batting average.
Is the a primer primer?
wow, you figured out pokemon but cant get that commercial?
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
Except new stats are usually improvements
While everything outside of the Red/Blue versions are terrible.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Slow your roll dude, Pokemon Snap was badass
signature
by billyok on Feb 19, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Only pokemon game I ever played.
Just bought it for Wii.
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 3:30 PM CST up reply actions
I think the liberal arts kids who don't understand stats/math (and this stuff's not that hard)
Give the liberal arts kids who do understand stats/math a bad rep.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
totally agree.
In the same vein, I think a lot of kids who suck at math and science go to art schools so they dont have to take those classes to begin with despite being relatively clueless about art.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
Fun aside
I’ve never taken a stats class (though my girlfriend wants me to take one over the summer with her… not sure if I want to spend the money), got a D in the last math class I took, and got a D (re-took for a B) and C+ in the only science classes I took in college, with the latter being in a science class designed specifically for non-science majors.
I also agree with you re: art schools. From what my art school friends have told me, a lot of people there don’t really know what they’re getting into.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Not hard? Are you kidding?
You need to divide, add and multiply and stuff. Only a genius could figure this stuff out. Consider your self lucky to so mentally gifted.
banging my head against a wall
brndnprkns: I'm pretty sure the "badass" value of your life is closer to Gigli than The Dark Knight
by whitesoxmatt on Feb 19, 2010 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
it was mostly just an excuse
to link to that Patton bit twice.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
i actually took physics for non-math majors at illinois
and the textbook was called ‘physics for poets.’ i also took a year of symbolic logic to avoid a semester of calculus and transferred to a small liberal arts school where i majored in english and never thought of math again.
and i still enjoyed and understood this article. nice job.
you took how things work?
"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik
He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST
it was just called physics for non-math (or non-science) majors, as far as i remember
this was in the spring of 1996, though, so ‘how things work’ may be the an updated version of the same class.
i don’t remember most of it, but we spent a lot of time discussing relativity, and all of the tests were about demonstrating understanding of the material, rather than doing mathematical proofs or solving problems or whatever you might do in a real physics class. for a few weeks back then i was actually able to understand relativity for a few minutes at a time before my brain collapsed. it was fun.
i can't believe they called the textbook that
awesome
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
you just got frontpaged over at LL
"A brief but trenchant analysis of Scott Podsednik
He’s dogshit."
by NYRoyal on Jan 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST
please go in and screw up the grammar and take away all capitalization.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
fucking assholes.
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
But really.. nice work and you're getting your proper propers.
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 4:36 PM CST up reply actions
i'm waiting for it to get frontpaged at BCB
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
by thatshortkid on Feb 19, 2010 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
The Tigers' empty locker story, explained
So here’s the source for the Daily Herald speculation that the empty locker at the Detroit spring training faclity is being prepped for Damon’s arrival.
The locker closest to manager Jim Leyland’s office sits empty, in a part of the room where the other lockers are stuffed with players’ gear.
That locker could go to an instructor who might come to camp, such as the eminent Andres Galarraga, the longtime slugger who could be a mentor to his fellow Venezuelan first baseman, Miguel Cabrera.
Paid to play "telephone"
“Could be for Damon, or it could be for an instructor” becomes “believed to be for Damon” becomes “will sign with the Tigers in the next two or three days.”
The boos he will get
When the Sox go to Detroit the first time should be intense.
by Grinder in Training on Feb 19, 2010 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
I've been waiting for this post for about 5 months. Hooray!
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
and you're telling me now?
seriously, i am not good at guessing what readers want. i can’t/don’t look at site traffic, so if the commenters don’t ask, i don’t know.
i know this is largely my problem, but it helps when folks make requests.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I spent the majority of the time learning how to accurately talk about the NBA salary cap.
So, this was less important. But, now that this post exists I can at least refresh my memory during the season.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 19, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
right before the lockout and subsequent new CBA?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
prettymuch
gotta gear up for the summer of 2010 though
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
That's why you need to know what's wrong with the current system.
Plus, it’s important for this summer.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 19, 2010 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
i'd read that post(s)
Falk said it’s the mid-level exceptions fault, among other things.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
i'd like to read an interview with chris getz.
by larry on Feb 19, 2010 1:30 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
i swear i had something for this
/archer
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
by colintj on Feb 19, 2010 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I never would have asked for it
But i’m glad I’ve read it now. Thanks
The Cubs are not a baseball team. They are a baseball-themed marketing company that hosts frat parties for post grads and tourists.
You are not the first to say..
perhaps the first to use those exact letters in that exact order.
Just a Rip-off of the Actual El Guapo, but a fake not funny one.
by DrEmilioLizardo on Feb 19, 2010 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
Sooo theeennn.... he's the first to say, as he said.
Don’t you question my Catbrains!
;P
In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
Puhleez....
I am questioning your catbrain, hindbrain, forebrain and brainstem…. :)
Just a Rip-off of the Actual El Guapo, but a fake not funny one.
by DrEmilioLizardo on Feb 19, 2010 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
I appreciate the Donnie Most pic.
2 Donnnie references in 2 days! He must be turgid right now.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
apparently i could have posted the youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfGQmotCIN0&feature=related
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
First thank you for this! Up till now, I just worked with the higher the wOBA the better theory without understanding it. Two Questions:
Q1
Does NIBB mean non-intentional walk? If so, do IBB’s actually work against the hitter’s wOBA? If an intentional walk is counted as a plate appearance and given no run value, it must. I see the problem of inflating statistics for #8 hitters in the NL, but it would also diminish the value of scary hitters like Bonds or Pujols.
Q2
How does wOBA work historically? Do you use the same linear weights during low scoring years (Dead-Ball, 1960’s) as you do the steroid era?
Thanks
All hail the Bellflower Buccaneer!
As long as you exclude the PA along with the IBB
either method is acceptable. I’m not sure what exactly you’ll find fangraphs chose, but I’m sure it’s coherently applied. Either way, they’re fairly marginal. Tango notes the following in his summary:
Depending on the specific analysis, the PA term (plate appearances) may exclude bunts, IBB, and a few of the more obscure plays.
http://www.insidethebook.com/woba.shtml
And I believe it is necessary to change the weights by era, but I’m having a hard time off hand coming up with an easy mental model for why. For instance, just because there are fewer HR hit doesn’t necessarily change the runs scored when they are hit. You’d need a change in the average rate of runners on base, like if BABIP went down as a result of fielders becoming more athletic and ballparks getting smaller, for the average value of the HR to change. So these things can happen, but in just ruminating for a moment I’m guessing they’re more consistent than I previously suspected.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Related Question
Why do intentional walks and non-intentional walks have different REs? Because they tend to happen in different situations?
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 19, 2010 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
fairly sure that's correct
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
That's it.
Because intentional walks are not evenly distributed across situations, their weight ceases to be linear – so they don’t fit into this sort of calculation.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
sort of
as long as they’re consistently deployed, the value will be fairly represented. but you can always make IBB into BB if you’re not sure there was a large enough sample to adequately define the value of the IBB
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Possibly a "you da man" moment, but
I haven’t seen anyone else post that the Indians signed Russel Branyan for 2m + 1m in incentives: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/02/indians-to-sign-russell-branyan.html
Time for KW to go get a hitter?
Colin, this is great.
I really hope others take note of this—it might be the best explanation of the importance of wOBA I’ve read.
Chicago White Sox Examiner — IT'S A JEEP THING YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND
Thanks, Colin.
Great stuff. The more I thought about the era thing, the more I agree it doesn’t make that much of a difference. The better hitters will always have a higher wOBA, you just might have to adjust what average constitutes good vs. great.
I still would add in IBB’s as a positive and delete RBOE as a negative when I create my perfect system!
All hail the Bellflower Buccaneer!
iirc, RBOE has persistence
it’s typically a skill attributed to Willy Taveras types
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
:)

In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu
by homesickalien on Feb 19, 2010 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Ok, so what does this say about the White Sox?
We don’t have anyone in the top 35 in MLB. Are we doomed?
Like pizza? Me too.
Check out my pizza review site.
top 35? I thought we were going for guys older than 35. shit!
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
runs are both scored and saved
but one season’s wOBA ≠ true talent wOBA
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
This post is about as useless as tits on a bull.
At least give us some examples with a test at the end! This post permanently crossed my eyes now I won’t be able to judge talent anymore. :(
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 19, 2010 3:16 PM CST via mobile reply actions
So nothing has changed?
The Cubs are not a baseball team. They are a baseball-themed marketing company that hosts frat parties for post grads and tourists.
by justjc on Feb 19, 2010 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
I cant read this now
but Im excited to scroll through tonight, thanks colin!
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
thanx colin
super good write up, and way to bring in tangotiger to the sss
Hell Yesss
by Grinder Rule #42 on Feb 19, 2010 6:23 PM CST reply actions
the cheat may know better than me
but i certainly haven’t seen more traffic directed to this site by people linking to a single post.
pretty good.
Clarified some stuff i was a tad confused about…. but i think i’ll stick with batting average, homers and rbi’s and flick off the new generation!
Kenwo4life=ratings
Wait, you're under 30, right?
You are the new generation. Its the people 15 years older then us that are old farts living in the past.
kenwo has been 13 for the last 20 years.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
nice post colin
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
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