Kenny Williams Hits and Misses
Taking a cue from this article on Indians GM Mark Shapiro, here is my take on Kenny Williams' five best and five worst moves during his tenure as GM. They are in chronological order.
Hits
November 30, 2000 - Re-signed Jose Valentin to a 4 year/ $20M contract.
Would it surprise you that Valentin is the 376th most valuable position player in baseball history? Coming off a spectacular 5 WAR season in 2000, Williams locked up Valentin for four more seasons. And, while not reaching the heights of that season, he provided 2.9, 3.2, 4.2 and 2.9 WAR over the contract - production worth approximately $35M. Valentin remains one of the more underappreciated players in recent White Sox history.
December 11, 2003 - Signed Mark Buehrle to a 3 year/ $18M contract extension (with $9.5M 2007 club option)
I don't think I need to cite any numbers for this one. He's quite simply been one of the most valuable pitchers in baseball over the course of his career. While he's consistently been underappreciated by projection systems - in part because of his own defensive prowess and in part because of his unique repertoire - his performance has not gone underappreciated by White Sox fans. Even including the 2006 hiccup, Buehrle was paid less than half his value over the contract.
December 17, 2004 - Claimed Bobby Jenks off waivers
When you acquire one of the better closers of the last five years for a waiver claim fee, it's going to be a hit. However you want to value closers and however you feel about his current salary - and there is plenty of debate over both - there is no debating that Jenks has been excellent ever since he was called upon late in the 2005 season to take over as closer.
March 20, 2006 - Traded Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton
Quite simply, this was highway robbery. The bustiness of Borchard need not be elaborated here since it was done here. Thornton himself was considered a bust by Seattle. While panned at the time, it reputedly took Don Cooper only a single side session to make a slight modification in Thornton's delivery (lengthening his stride) and curing him of his inability to find the strike zone. The rest is history. Thornton has become the premier set-up man in baseball over the last four seasons and is signed to perhaps one of the most ridiculously team friendly contracts.
December 6, 2006 - Traded Freddy Garcia for Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez
White Sox fans universally noted the devolution of Garcia into a junkballer during the 2006 season, with across the board velocity drops. Despite this, and Williams' reputation as a guy who trades injured pitchers (thanks Mike Sirotka!), the Phillies decided to take Freddy and his $10M salary for 2007 off the White Sox' hands and send a prospect who was considered a bust back to the White Sox, along with the highly-rated Gonzalez (who had been sent to Philly by the White Sox the prior offseason for Jim Thome). Predictably, Garcia pitched only 58 awful innings before having season-ending shoulder surgery. Floyd spent the 2007 season largely in the minors but in 2008 had a breakout season. And despite the poo-pooing of many in the sabermetric community, who spent a bit too much time with their noses in the numbers and not enough watching the game, Floyd solidified his status with an excellent 2009 season.
Misses
December 13, 2001 - Traded Kip Wells, Sean Lowe and Josh Fogg for Todd Ritchie and Lee Evans
After three solid seasons for the Pirates, the White Sox traded two young, well-regarded pitchers in Wells and Fogg for Ritchie, who was simply awful in his one season with the club. While this trade does not look nearly as bad to me in hindsight as it did at the time, it did show the inability of Williams early in his tenure to realize the value of cost-controlled players. Wells never was much more than an average innings-eater type but he alone was far more useful and valuable than Ritchie was in his one year here.
April 12, 2006 - Signed Jose Contreras to a 3 year/ $29M extension
FIP proponents are probably going to argue this one. They'll point to Fangraphs' valuation and say he was worth his contract. The problem with that logic is that it neutralizes one of the things that Contreras is just terrible at - having runners on base. If you're not using a walker, a single or walk may as well be a double. There are other issues, which are elaborated on here. Suffice to say, Williams didn't envision the guy producing an ERA of 5.00 and facing multiple injury issues when the extension was signed. This perhaps shows the danger of signing an older player to an extension almost a full season before he hits free agency (although a similar move with A.J. Pierzynski panned out).
November 23, 2007 - Signed Scott Linebrink to a 4 year/ $19M contract
Last offseason, I evaluated this as the worst current White Sox contract. It looked bad when it was signed and nothing has changed. He's been basically useless. And there's still two years left. Why Williams broke from his usual M.O. and signed a pitcher for four years is a mystery.
January 3, 3008 - Traded Ryan Sweeney, Gio Gonzalez and Fautino De Los Santos for Nick Swisher
November 13, 2008 - Traded Nick Swisher and Kanekoa Texeira for Wilson Betemit, Jhonny Nunez and Jeff Marquez
May as well handle these together. The initial trade elicited generally positive reactions - a player signed to an undermarket contract who had provided about 4 WAR in each of the prior two seasons and who was about to enter his prime is usually a good thing. Sure, the price was high - De Los Santos and Gonzalez were probably the top talents in the system and Sweeney looked like at least a 4th outfielder - but the return was solid. Then Swisher had a very subpar season in terms of production (for reasons largely of luck), apparently pissed off management and other players and was summarily shipped out for garbage. At which time he promptly returned, as expected, to his prior level of 4 WAR production. Whether you think Swisher deserved to be traded away rather misses the point because, if you think that, he shouldn't have been traded for in the first place. As discussed previously both here and elsewhere, this was a ham-fisted job of player evaluation the whole way through.
The Take Away
It was a lot harder to find misses than hits. This is a function of a multitude of factors. First, Williams rarely signs players to contracts longer than 3 years. Second, as re-confirmed recently, the White Sox are superb at preventing playing time lost to injury - which is usually the primary cause for a contract or trade to go horribly awry. Finally, the White Sox are good at evaluating their own prospect talent and tend to trade them at the height of value.
As I'm sure you noticed, this was generally a results-based analysis, which I think is completely fair for a decade-long tenure as "luck" should be balanced out and skill should show through. As such, there are some recent transactions which need more time. Chris Carter for Carlos Quentin could end up looking pretty bad if Carter, ranked one of the top prospects in baseball, pans out and '09 Quentin is the real version. The John Danks trade was a late cut, which again speaks more to Williams' abilities than anything. Alexei Ramirez probably only needs another season to go from "very good" to "coup" level. The Alex Rios waiver claim could be a miss, if only because long-term deals like that are rarely favorable. And if you're of the type to include draft picks, there's this Beckham fellow who may be okay.
Add your own lists below. A good tool is this spreadsheet of transactions, though it is only updated through the 2008 season and has some notable absences. See also here.
*Note that I used Rally's WAR database for this post because it goes back prior to 2002.
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i think it is hard to list the Quentin deal as a bad one....
he had an MVP season out of the 2 years he’s been here and the other guy hasn’t been in the league yet. If we are going to do that I think the Brandon Allen for Tony Pena deal has a lot better chance at being “bad”… simply because Pena is a middle reliever. Quentin will be good enough to justify the deal.
Kenwo4life=ratings
You could argue that it's virtually impossible to classify the Q deal as a bad one, purely on the 2008 production alone.
Carter would have to be quite good for more than a full ML season to even begin debating it.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
Its foolish the classify the Quetin for Carter deal at all right now.
We don’t know the value of either set of cost controlled years yet. They haven’t happened. If Carter turns into Ryan Howard or Prince Fielder then yes, it would be considered a miss.
agree
if carlos doesnt break his hand going mike tyson in 08, hes the AL MVP. pretty hard to consider that a bad deal. he kept the sox afloat.
by longball5187 on Feb 20, 2010 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
'09 happened too though
the Sox would have been right in it with ’08 Q! it sets the bar much lower for Carter, at least.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
How would you rank these 1-5 on both the hits and the misses?
by Quickly 0 and 2 on Feb 20, 2010 1:27 PM CST reply actions
i purposefully didn't do it that way
but i’d call the MB extension the best move. if you want something less obvious than “buy out some free agent years of your best pitcher”, the floyd trade probably rates best.
as for worst, the swisher trades were just an overall clusterfuck.
I like the Danks trade better than Floyd's,
if only because there was a lot more risk in letting go of B-Mac at the time. Lots of folks did not like that trade. Freddy appeared done when he was kicked to the curb. And have you forgotten? One word: NickMagic.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
iirc, we were pretty wait and see about it, right?
it looked like Kenny was punting to some degree on ‘07 and, lo, that’s how it turned out.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Liked the Garcia-for-Gio swap, but thought Floyd was nothing more than a backend guy
thought Danks-McCarthy was a challenge trade… I didn’t hate it, understood it completely, but said it wasn’t a trade I could have made.
Twitter: @SouthSideCheat
SouthSideSox on Facebook
yeah that was ballsy
to win that trade, you have to evaluate both your player and theirs better than them. that’s a tall order.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
yeah, basically. probably should have referred to the circumstances explicitly
but i’m sure it’s harder to have an excellent scouting report on guys who aren’t vets. mccarthy had a year in the league, danks didn’t. garcia had been in the league forever, gio and floyd not so much. etc.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I think the Sox had been scouting John since before the 03 draft
loved him, and went for it. I think part of the ability to keeping pitchers off the DL is being able to see which ones will lose velo and/or get injured.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
would SSS be in agreement that the Sox philosophy is
to prefer depth to breadth when it comes to scouting?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
explain this in a way that my fatigued mind can manage
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:23 PM CST up reply actions
we're always hearing about "Kenny's guys"
what if we said that’s because they think they can get the most out of guys they can scout up close for comparatively longer periods of time? given limited resources, you have to decide how wide a net you cast and where to send your scouts. do you send him to a second game of Danks, or start a new profile with prospect X?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I don't think its resources for Kenny's guys
It’d be guys that fit the White Sox staff personnel. Ie, pitchers that Coop will work well with; fragile guys that Herm can work well with; hitter who need no coaching.
No professional baseball team should be talking about limited scouting resources. Scouts are cheap. And if you have two guys in the same area who need to be scouted, call the cross checker in.
by coffeepac on Feb 20, 2010 4:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd
for the casual “hitters who need no coaching”
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
Right here
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
by colintj on Feb 20, 2010 11:22 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Check it
http://mobile.minorleagueball.com/2010/2/19/1317990/international-players-in-the-twins
Teams make decisions about how and where t allocate scouting resources.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
by colintj on Feb 20, 2010 11:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I am missing the point of the article in this discussion
I was referring to state side scouting either for the draft or for a trade. Either of those will be in the US where you shouldn’t have any limitations.
In the article Norsetter infers that the Twins are scouting everyone, actually. The scarce resource in that article is top end bonus money. Sickels claims that the Twins are not actively scouting Cubans and N. refutes that claim. He says, ‘…Even though we haven’t signed the big time free agents[from Cuba], we scout them just as hard as the next team’
I think that article supports the idea that teams do not have a limited scouting budget. And that the Twins are allocating their scouting resources to attempt total coverage. Of course, there is a limit, but its probably around several million dollars; which for a scouting department is effectively unlimited.
I think they go for guys who seem to stand to benefit them greatly more than having a few passable guys
those guys aren’t particularly hard to find, but are hard to get. I can’t begin to dissect the scouting department in the sense you’re talking about but it seems like a player has to stand out in some way talent-wise for KW and co. to want to bite, as opposed to someone like Beane who gets a player just because he’s undervalued and wants depth.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:44 PM CST up reply actions
It also seems like they make up for being very thin depth-wise by allocating a lot of resources to keeping players physically strong
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
that you say it this way
I would definetly say depth, that is a great question though
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
yes...
but it that situation both players involved generally have considerable ML playing time. You rarely see prospect for prospect deals, and even though McCarthy used up a nearly a year of service time ahead of that trade, he was still really a prospect, just because his moves in and out of the rotation made him more difficult to evaluate
Twitter: @SouthSideCheat
SouthSideSox on Facebook
That previous spring B Mac was widely considered to have the best stuff in Arizona.
Huge balls making that move.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
and the primary reason i don't rate the danks trade better at this point
is there’s still a chance that mccarthy could provide some value to texas and, indeed, mccarthy already has provided some value to texas (whereas garcia provided next to nothing). i think my preference for danks over floyd is well known around here so you can imagine my disdain at not being able to write about him.
I disagree with you here.
Floyd can bring no-hit stuff every 5 games where as Danks will be mainly an innings eater. I would rank Floyd higher at this point due to his ceiling. He can be an ace, I just don’t see that out of Danks, although I love the fact that he is a lefty.
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 20, 2010 4:48 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I believe in '08 Danks was the ace in the 2nd half, IIRC.
Isn’t his out-pitch (slider?) ranked as one of the nastiest pitches in all of baseball? Not that Floyd’s yakker is a slouch. I think Danks can be an “ace” in the mode of MB, who many on this site don’t consider a #1 pitcher, yet he’s exhibits individual brilliance quite often and is the comsummate innings-eater.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
Danks already has a 5+ WAR season.
My guess he will be better and will probable throw up a 6 WAR season in the next 3-4 years.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
You don't see that, except for that whole 2008 when he was?
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 20, 2010 6:54 PM CST up reply actions
i think innings eater is a little harsh.
Danks is better than Buehrle right now in my opinion.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Also
the mike sirotka deal was bad too. I would have rather kept an injured sirotka than traded for that fat piece of big hurt hating , waiter to Iguchi bastard Tubby Wells. Fuck that guy.
Damaso Marte for Rob Mackowiak- HUGE MISS.
Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik and Luis Vizcaino was really awful.
The Jermaine Dye signing was a big one…. as was AJ
Kenwo4life=ratings
javy vazquez for a bunch of crap isn't good either
fuck tyler flowers! (until he proves something to me at least)
Kenwo4life=ratings
i understand the concept.
so i used betemit’s name… which basically was what it was… but for technicalities sake… I’ll just say “leaving Uribe walk” as one of the worst moves he has made.
Kenwo4life=ratings
the reason the first JD contract was not included.
was the 2007 season. he gave back a whole lot of the surplus value he provided in the prior two seasons.
how close was the second contract to making the list?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Hmm
Considering the cash freed up in the Lee deal and that is an end result deal I don’t see how you possibly list that trade on any worst list. Pods+Viz+AJ+Iguchi >Lee.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
the fact is you could have gotten pods for basically nothing.
i understand the cash thing… but as an individual move that move was fucking terrible. If the sox never won the world series the following year it may have gone down as one of the worst trades ever. Have you seen Carlos lee’s numbers since then?
Kenwo4life=ratings
Uhh yeah I have, have you?
and you obviously don’t understand the cash thing.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
thats not to say I was happy with the trade at the time
The point is the 4 far outproduced Lee the next year.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
the trade wasn't for Iguchi and Pierzynski.
it eventually freed up space for them to sign… but at the time of the trade AJ was still a Giant. No way Williams would have known that he would have been able to sign him.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Case in point.
The Sox didn’t trade 8 million in salary to sit on the dollar gain. That’s ridiculous.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
in the books it goes down as
CARLOS LEE
FOR
SCOTT PODSEDNIK AND LUIS VIZCAINO
AWFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They could have traded anyone for podsednik… the brewers didn’t want him anymore. no need to trade a guy who has hit .300 *minus 1 season 25 homers and 100 rbi’s every year since that trade.
Kenwo4life=ratings
that's beside the point
GMs don’t make moves in a vacuum, so why should we evaluate the moves as such?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Open your mind, KenWo.
“Awful” is the Swisher deal. We got a lot of value – directly and indirectly – for the Lee trade.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
Lee was a 4.8 WAR player at the trade
He hasn’t reached it since and fell to 1.8 WAR the next year after the trade. Im sick of folks not putting 2 + 2 together with that trade and trying to leave it at its initial stage.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
i did the research
Podsednik= bum on the royals.. almost out of baseball until the sox fucked up so bad they need him again……. vizcaino= out of baseball or barely hanging on somewhere……. lee= 30 homers and 100 rbi’s again this year. yes i know his contract is a big huge one now… but that is the Astros fault for giving him that much. Lee will produce like he always has.
Kenwo4life=ratings
that's not research
that’s not even acknowledging what the Sox did with the money when he would have been still under team control. Opportunity cost? WTF does his Astro career have to do with KW? This is just dumb reasoning all the way around.You would have done something different with the resources at the time. Fine. Great. It might ALSO have worked out. You do realize there is more than 1 way to build a team. I’m sick of goofs (not necessarily you) claiming because any GM didn’t do or construct a move the way THEY would have done it its dumb. Especially when doing an end result eval that clearly backed it up.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
but if you were going to trade lee....
you could have gotten a hot prospect or 2 or 3. Not 2 guys that weren’t very good.
Kenwo4life=ratings
The 2 provided about 1.5 WAR for 2 million
They didnt get paid very much either.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
Didn't you read Colin's post the other day?
Why are you even mentioning RBIs?
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 20, 2010 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
he did
and he said he’s sticking with avg/hr/rbi
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
no they aren't
the worst hitter in the world could have a lot of rbi in the right spot and team for a season
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
bat lil' bridge anywhere you want. someone who can hit the ball needs to be in a position to drive in runs.
i think you're doing it wrong
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
thats not the point i was making
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
tom herr 1985?
you have to go back 25 years to come up with an example? Plus Tom Herr had a big year that year hitting .302. Of course it takes others to be on base to have big RBI totals… but if you don’t think there is a skill or a knack for driving in runs you are very very mistaken.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Preston Wilson, 2000
and other years.
Lurking since 2006
by boyonthedock on Feb 21, 2010 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
yah.. i don't see it that way.
take a peak at the top 50 RBI leaders of all time. there is no tom herr’s on that list. Those are 50 of the greatest hitters of all time.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Those 50 players also lead a ton of other categories.
But getting RBIs is not under the players control. Its too reliant on your teammate’s to be a useful metric.
RBIs= Runs and runs= wins.
therefore… important… i know that it requires the other player to be in scoring position and whatnot but to just dismiss it is pretty insane in my opinion
Kenwo4life=ratings
Do you honestly believe that?
Or are you just sticking to it out of tradition? Of course RBIs are going to be (somewhat) correlated with good hitters over the course of their careers, because one component of an RBI is getting hits/walks/etc.
But to even mention them is silly, because they are also tainted by other components outside a player’s control (you know, those Runs that are potentially on base that might be Batted In if there).
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 21, 2010 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
(sorta) reply fial
That was meant under mick’s response.
White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man
by KarkoviceIsHawt on Feb 21, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
that took you a really long time to figure that one out.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
I don't think you are a lost cause
But you could let go of the RBI’s. They are indicative of a good hitter, but there are better measures.
Yes, that top 50 is full of awesome as it should be. But there are better measures. RBI’s break down as a comparative measure because the opportunities are not the same for similar players. Because of that, we can’t use them as a comparative tool. They fail there.
And stop asking for favors, this isn’t craigslist.
rbi simply works as a good measure on the fringes
it is hard, likely impossible, to be a bad hitter and have 140 rbi. similarly, it is hard, likely impossible, to be a good hitter and have 40 rbi. the problem is everything in the middle, which is essentially all starting baseball players.
of course the players who are in the top 50 in career rbi are pretty good – that’s the fringe. just like the players who are in the bottom 50 are horseshit – they’re the fringe.
that's an awful thing to say about Moonlight Graham
man was a saint.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 22, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
The point is if you put almost any major league hitter in a great situation
he can stack up some rbi totals. Better hitters would get a lot more but that kind of illustrates why its retarded to be solely using an rbi total of proof of anything. The Herr example was showing how a crap hitter did exactly that.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
he wasn't exactly a crap hitter that year, was he?
and who was using an rbi total as sole proof of something? runs are pretty unpredictable too but rather important to winning baseball games.
you don't think a batter will also improve his overall numbers
in that great situation? You know like the fact there runners on base in front of him all the time? Why are runs unpredictable?
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
Herr that year
RISP line .309/.409/.454
no runners on .249/.349/.352
I don’t want to pick on Mr. Herr. He was an example that immediately came to my head about folks talking about how good a batter is because of his rbi total. Herr finished 5th in MVP voting that year which is just stupid.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
because runs depends upon who is batting behind you.
the problem with RBI is that it conflates driving in runs with the much more important matter of producing runs. it is a statistic (like most offensive counting statistics) that is far less correlated with the latter than many other statistics and, therefore, is much less useful.
by the way, if you want a good example of a piss poor 100 RBI season, use ruben sierra in 1993. nothing like a -2.5 WAR season.
was he jose guillen before jose guillen?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
sierra managed to play about fifteen more seasons after his final season of usefulness.
he is in a class by himself.
I loved Ruben Sierra
for about 2 years – was on my fantasy team. He and Bobby Witt raised expectations at TX for way too many years.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
I had completely forgotten he played for the Sox.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
what numbers are you talking about improving?
that line suggests to me he was very good in situations where runners were on base. it doesn’t tell me how many times he hit with runners in scoring position.
if the sox didn't win the world series, or even miss the playoffs
that’s still an obviously excellent team. 90+ wins is success, the kind the team hadn’t had since 2000.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
The first Dye contract was an incredible move.
Time will tell if the Floyd or Danks moves surpass it, but for my money, that first JD contract is the best move of Kenny’s career.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
Question: if we were to evaluate the Thome-Rowand deal, do we take into account
Kenny’s utter failures at bringing in a CF the following years?
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
i liked Jim... and didn't really care for rowand
but this trade led to many bad decisions for the few years afterwards. (owens, anderson, griffey in center, mackowiak, picking up rios contract*)
*that may not be a bad decision depending on how he plays… but it sure looks bad right now
Kenwo4life=ratings
Player for player, in a vacuum, it's obvious (to me) that this trade was favorable.
But if the CF woes that followed are taken into account, that’s quite different.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
Ugh...
I remember reading that KW’s people told him Brian Anderson was ready for the Bigs. I can remember the national TV crews during the 05 run panning back to the dugout where BA and Rowand were talking and saying how BA was the player of the future. My personal feeling is that BA never put the work in to be as good as he could have been which oddly enough is still a middle of the road ballplayer with good defensive skills. Isn’t that why Kenny fired a shitload of folks in the minors??
Personally, I hate that we lost Rowand…and never cared for the pull hitting Gentleman Masher all that much… I know, I know… flame on…
I was a fan of thome but I think we were spoiled by frank.
When it appeared that thome could only do one thing (hit homers), that is a steep drop off in perception when putting what Frank did, into perspective.
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 20, 2010 4:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ummm... HRs were all Thome could do?
Getting on base at a .391 clip in his White Sox career isn’t exactly without value.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
I said perception, not reality.
Damn, Avatar is a long movie!
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 21, 2010 2:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
too bad.. i really liked delgado.
but his career is done. nobody is going to sign him after this
Kenwo4life=ratings
Is this an "I was wrong" moment, KenWo?
It should be.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
well the reports i heard were that he was ok....
so i figured…. lefty dh for cheap. if i had known he needed surgery obviously i wouldn’t have put him on my list… you asshat!
Kenwo4life=ratings
"You asshat" = "I was wrong" in KenWoland
I understand multiple languages.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
he wasn't an option after the reports from winter ball said he couldn't move.
unfortunate for him but we all gotta go sometime.
Throwing frank to the curb and kicking him wasn't good either.
neither was the fact that thomas finished 4th in the MVP voting the next year.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 20, 2010 2:05 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
on reiferts facebook page I am in a battle over
who is better juan pierre or johnny damon. Colin…be ready! He said “pierre has a better batting average and more stolen bases” as the reason to justify!
Kenwo4life=ratings
you could just link him to
my post. but i’m guessing the dude isn’t citing defense, so all you have to do is convince him that juan pierre is a bad hitter.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
if it's some random dude
i probably take the snobby “fangraphs exists” route. if it was a friend, i’d probably send them my link.
but if you can get him to understand the idea behind linear weights, which is that every event contributes something to runs scored or prevented, you can start talking about how to weight events. home runs gain 4 bases. stolen bases gain one base. getting thrown out loses two (the base you attempted and the base you had). from there you can infer that there’s some break even point. outs cost bases, hence cost runs. using this “bases gained” technique would probably work okay.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
What about
“He gets on base more, he hits for way more power, and he’s a smarter baserunner.”
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
you think that's new information to him?
i assume he’s seen the back of a baseball card and still doesn’t care.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I think he's seen certain stats on a baseball card
“Wow, batting average! Wow, steals!” is my guess.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
So he's either taking the stats he already knows he prefers
or picking players he knows he prefers. if it’s the former, then my method could work. if it’s the latter, it’s over anyway. If you’re going to argue with him at all, it’s probably going to take a while. In the very least, I’d be explaining myself to him in a way that might change his mind. But if I was going to say anything at all, it would probably be something that wasn’t guaranteed to take a bunch of time. So that leaves a link or some snark, possibly both.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
i'm not friends with the guy but he comments on every post i make on reiferts updates.
hes a big time white sox/ozzie/kenny do everything right! Yay! kinda guy
Kenwo4life=ratings
you're a big shot everywhere you go?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
for sure brother.
i told you kenwo= ratings.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 20, 2010 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
it is your natural kenwo magnetism
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
my ability to identify talent also extends to internet commenters.
if a baseball scout signs one superstar, that’s considered a career. i peaked early.
from the sound of it
kenwo was a miguel cabrera type. you just knew he would succeed.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
You and me both.
I predicted Quentin to be a 30/100 guy.
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 20, 2010 5:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
did he do that last year?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
No, but saddle up! You are in for another MVP run. Put the house on it.
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 21, 2010 4:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
i think there's about a 50/50 shot
but if he’s right as rain, then i think we’ll be in it.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
At least you had a peak.
I identified Hooligan.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
come on larry
by the time SSS signed me to a long term contract I was already a hall of famer on Inside the White Sox…. You just showed me the money.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Awful deal.
But I hated Keith Foulke, so in my ignorance I was just pleased that he was going away.
Didn’t work out all that great.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
Larryboy, you can be a thrombosed hemorrhoid to ask a stupid question to
you write a damn good article.
Praise Him!!
by Hawk is God on Feb 20, 2010 2:25 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
it does surprise me that Valentin is rated that high.
I always liked him… and didn’t get the Royce Clayton move when they made it. Actually that is a bad move for the list.
Kenwo4life=ratings
i only vaguely remember the Clayton thing
i do remember hating him though. they picked up Clayton to play short so Valentin could play center?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
but i did know
mustache > dreads
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
He did have one fabulous baseball mustache.
My god, that thing was glorious.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
Everyone hated Valentin because of his errors.
And he struck out a lot, I just loved his stache.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 20, 2010 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
i never hated valentin
he made some pretty terrible errors but made up for it with the stick…. plus he was (don’t look guys) CLUTCH!
Kenwo4life=ratings
I still remember in 2000 listening to ESPN 1000, and lots of callers ragged on Valentin.
Then when Royce Clayton came along people gushed about how we had a real defensive SS.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 20, 2010 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
and then he only had 6 errors
which was also the grand total amount of hits he had all season
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
by blackoutsox on Feb 20, 2010 10:31 PM CST up reply actions
I remember
back in ’04 I went to a spring training game at the brewers complex verses the sox. And we go there early and I was like on of the few sox fans there, and some random dude pulled me out the stands and designated me to be white sox bat boy for that game. The whole time willy harris was messing with my like throw balls at me and stuff. The one thing I remember vividly was Valentin being on the on deck circle and saying to me in his high pitch voice “EH bat boy! pass me the pine tar!” HAHA
god i love him
#Royals ace Zack Greinke gives his only planned non-pitching day interview of the season and reveals his prize possession: a samurai sword.
by larry on Feb 20, 2010 2:33 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
He's a mental midget.
I see a ton of regression coming this season.
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 20, 2010 5:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
If so, it's because he's married
and has a large contract. His mind is fine.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
mental midget=/=strange priorities
Rick Ankiel is a mental midget. Greinke would not have been able to do what he has done recently if he was a mental midget.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
DID WTGTD CALL SOMEONE ELSE A MENTAL MIDGET?
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 21, 2010 5:12 AM CST up reply actions
You moved back?
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 21, 2010 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
nice post btw
does the mlbtr sheet miss anything big? kenny’s made enough moves at this point to do some WAR accounting.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
ramirez, for one.
variety of more minor moves. where’s erstad, politte, hermanson, hall…. lots of bench players and relievers not included, though i suppose that’s not surprising.
in the grand scheme of things
where does KW fall in the GM pecking order? top 10? better, worse?
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
I'm not sure myself
par for GMs has risen in the past couple years, especially in the AL. I’m interested in Alex Anthopoulos’s new regime myself.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
GMWAR is just harder to attain these days.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
my top 10, no order:
Jocketty, KW, Theo, Friedman, Melvin, Cashman, Shapiro, Dombrowski, Bill Smith, Beane.
I don't think Jocketty, Shapiro, Dombrowski, or especially Smith should be on the list.
I’m not sure about Melvin or Cashman. Melvin’s teams haven’t done much and Cashman has the ability to sign any free agent and keep every player as long as they want.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:26 PM CST up reply actions
smith whiffed on johan and garza thats for sure.
but the cabrera trade was outstanding. i wouldn’t put him top 5….. but top 10? its passable.
Kenwo4life=ratings
the Cabrera trade was decent
but he failed monumentally with Garza and Johan, and everything good going for the Twins is courtesy of the Ryan era.
I think the field has evened out considerably, with guys like Ryan and Schuerholz dominating given their resources and guys like Bavasi and Purpura sucking it up.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
i was thinking that
needs a bigger body of work
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
which is why i agreed
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
as is Andy MacPhail
Jon Daniels has also come on strong after a horrible first few moves.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
yah macphail has done ok recently.
i just couldn’t come to putting him on my list. thought about it though.
Kenwo4life=ratings
williams, beane, cashman, epstein, friedman, jocketty, daniels, melvin, zduriencik
maybe someone like huntington. there are guys i wouldn’t want based on their track record (minaya, moore, so on) and then there are other guys who simply don’t have enough resume. you can probably toss both jack z and hutington in that but, based on their moves so far and their general philosopy, i think i’d rather have those than some of the others.
the reason saying williams was top ten was so easy is because there simply aren’t ten GMs out there at this point who have the track record of success and recent success.
zduriencik being on that list would be like putting beckham on a list of top 10 sox players.
nice start but kinda sss.
hmm i thought beinfest was current...
but now i see it says Michael Hill? Yet Beinfest is credited with signing Johnson and Ramirez… Is hill the actual GM or is he like Rick Hahn who does most of the work but gets no credit?
Kenwo4life=ratings
i gotcha...
when he wasn’t included on your list i had to look him up to see if he was still GM. So scratch him off and put on ::gulp:: Andy Macphail at number 10 on my list.
Kenwo4life=ratings
yeah but the guy was directly responsible for where the brewers are today
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I don't get the Jocketty love.
He had a good run with the Cardinals, but his tenure with the Reds is not inspiring. Melvin has had a small payroll in the past, but lately it’s been average and his teams underperform. They have great scouting, but they have failed to put together a decent rotation(maybe this year).
Beinfest, Hill and co. have done a great job. I love what MacPhail, Huntington and Zduriencik have done so far, and Anthopoulos looks promising but the jury is out on these guys. I still consider Towers one of the best if he still counts.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
Epstein, Friedman, MacPhail, Beinfest/Hill, Williams, Beane, Zduriencik, O'Dowd, Daniels, Cashman
The only one I wasn’t sure about was Daniels, and that’s because he got taken advantage so much for a while.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:20 PM CST up reply actions
its nice to see people not putting shapiro in.
i never understood why he got so much love.
Kenwo4life=ratings
i liked shapiro.
he made what looked like good moves. and then none of them worked out. i got to the point where maybe he was really unlucky. or maybe he just isn’t very good. process only gets you so far, need some results at some point.
i just can't get passed
getting rid of all of your top talent…. anybody who bets the house that much on prospects better hit eventually…. (though the Colon to montreal for sizemore, lee and phillips deal was grand)… but then he traded lee and phillips (not so grand).
Kenwo4life=ratings
I like how he made full use of Bavasi and Minaya's generosity.
I dislike the talent he’s gotten for his star players lately.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
odowd was number 10 on my list...
he’s done some nice things recently. You have to completely throw out 2 of the worst signings in the history of the game to put him there though.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Helton has proven to be a great contract.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
Oddly fair so far, actually
Although its not great. He’s giving up the surplus value he provided in the first three years. He makes 16 this year and 19 next year. Too much money as % of payroll going to one person.
It will become bad contract.
It will become fair, and better than that if he can keep up last year's production.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
not including helton.
it will be a bad contract in its final season… usually contracts to stars end up being that way…but he has been pretty productive
Kenwo4life=ratings
He's done more recently with less.
Granted, the Cardinals right now have a lot to owe to the Jocketty era but some of the moves he’s made lately are just strange. I like how O’Dowd has helped get and develop a lot of talent, make sure they’re good and then lock them up for a while at a cheap rate. When he found he couldn’t lock up Holliday, he got more good talent and hit the target.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
it was more of your word choice.
i could see o’dowd sneaking into a top ten due to lack of options. i’d probably put him more in the ‘not sure but on rehabilitation’ like daniels.
When I was debating whether to include Colletti on my top 15, I realized there are still some iffy ones.
I may actually prefer Huntington to O’Dowd in a couple years, but I’ve like what Anthopoulos has done in his two moves and what he’s planned and there are plenty of guys who simply don’t have enough on their resume.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
Beane, Beinfest/Hill, Cashman, Epstein, Friedman, MacPhail, Zduriencik, O'Dowd, Williams, Daniels
7 Definites: Beane, Beinfest/Hill, Cashman, Epstein, Friedman, MacPhail, Zduriencik
Next 6: Daniels, Williams, Shapiro, O’Dowd, Jocketty, Melvin
It’s splitting hairs as we get to the middle of the pack, so I wouldn’t disagree with a different second tier. It’s a little early to judge Anthopoulos and Hoyer, and I guess Rizzo. Out of those I’d take O’Dowd, Williams, and Daniels I suppose, but it’s so close.
Interesting. I was looking at Daniel Berlyn’s and thinking, yes, I mostly agree, but I’m not sure on Williams and Daniels. Looking at the alternatives, I came to the same conclusion. I expect Anthopoulos or Hoyer to claim the tenth spot at least. Someone else may smarten up. And we’ll soon see if Huntington can finish his process. (I guess the same goes for Shapiro..)
Apologies for the essay.
macphail's longevity should probably count for something
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Top 10
but probably outside the top 5, definitely outside the top 5 for letting Ozzie influence him too much this off-season…
But he’s probably rated by saber-types and media alike as middle of the road, anywhere from 11 to 25
Twitter: @SouthSideCheat
SouthSideSox on Facebook
yeah for me the ozzie still warrants a slide
but certainly top ten
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
same question i asked larry
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
i'll answer....
I think he is basically a stubborn asshole… which isn’t necessarily bad… I like the fact that he takes risks… sometimes they pay off other times they don’t. I get disgusted with the lack of quality free agents that come to the sox. I like that he trades “prospects” for proven players… but i don’t like the grudges he holds against players (or maybe that is him dealing with ozzie’s grudges against players).
Final Grade on 10 years of service from KenWo= B
the fact that I gave him a grade that high and considering he’s been at it for 10 years… i would assume puts him in the top 10….
Kenwo4life=ratings
i'd be interested in your top 10 if you've got one
i asked because i don’t think i do.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
its hard to come up with a top 10 GM....
Cashman is good and wins all the time but i could be a GM in that situation…. Friedman has been good but if you get the number 1 pick 10 years in a row you better be able to put out a good team. Its tough to rank them because each is in their own situation. I would say that Epstein has probably been the best…. I like what Dave Dombrowski has done… I think Larry Beinfest has been very very good considering his situation… I’ve always liked Walt Jocketty.. but again his situation is pretty bad right now. Beane is probably in everyone’s top 3 (I don’t like him all that much but he has absolutely made a big impact on how things are done)
I really don’t like Jim Hendry, Mark Shapiro always gets high praise… i don’t see it. he trades away his best players year in and year out because he thinks he’s smarter than everyone. Omar Minaya has been very horrible in my opinion since he left Montreal.
Kenwo4life=ratings
it's much easier to judge who sucks
than who’s great. but dombrowski has sullied the hell out of his rep if you ask me. kenny’s had less money and more success. the ryan/smith combo has obviously been better too, probably than both. damn fuckin’ twins.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
well dombrowski
fucked up royally with Willis….. but last year the edwin jackson trade was outstanding… we’ll see what happens after his flurry of moves this year.
Kenwo4life=ratings
Willis is a problem, the Maggs and Guillen contracts suck
Robertson’s too. the Twins have done way better.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
also fucked up with:
sheffield (paid him 14 million to go away), bonderman (38 mil/4 years), and nate robertson (21.25 mil/3 years). also i don’t like the 14 mil/2 years he just gave to valverde.
you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry
an exhaustive list
of his bad deals is pretty easy. and looks way worse than kenny’s top 5. i assume it’s worse than the 10th best GM.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
er. hard. as in "there's still another one out there that sucks
that i can’t remember".
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Bonderman looked like he was a stud in the making
then he got hurt… i’ll give you the rest though. Maggs contract sucks but you are going to have to pay any big time player a lot of money on a back end of a deal.
Kenwo4life=ratings
knowing the inherent risk of signing a young(or any) pitcher long-term has kept KW out of jams like that.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
did you see
that list of teams by time lost to injury? that’s within a club’s control.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
it is and it isnt...
sometimes you just get hurt…. its very hard to predict that… Prior had the “perfect mechanics”. If we are going on mechanics, take a look at our 2 righties- neither has picture perfect mechanics…
Kenwo4life=ratings
not everyone said prior had perfect mechanics.
i don’t remember which school of thought is which, but one of either house or marshall (i think) was saying prior was cruising for a bruising with his janky mechanics.
you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry
his mechanics were bad.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
i don't know if it matters
but i didn’t like prior’s mechanics
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
that may be like saying the top ten baseball players includes ken griffey.
obviously we need to include history in order to evaluate these guys properly. but giving too much credit for stuff fifteen years ago when he’s been not so good recently? i’d question it.
If i was an owner... here is my top 10 list of curent guys id want running the club...
1. Theo Epstein
2. Larry Beinfest
3. Walt Jocketty
4. Brian Cashman
5. Kenny Williams
6. Andrew Freidman
7. Billy Beane
8. Dave Dombrowski
9. Doug Melvin
10. Dan O’dowd… just hopefully he doesn’t sign denny neagle again.
We would move to las vegas and be called the Vegas Vipers. :-)
Kenwo4life=ratings
good list.
i might have cashman lower but he’s hard to evaluate when he has unlimited resources. i’d put kw ahead of him on mine.
He has unlimited resources, but he also has ridiculous expectations.
Granted he’s getting paid handsomely (I assume), but other than Jim Hendry there isn’t a GM who is under more pressure annually.
Taj Gibson is the face of Bulls basketball!
by Trey23 on Jan 5, 2010 6:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 20, 2010 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
i'm surprised you have kdub at #5
wrapped and sealed with masking tape moistened with sweat experience existence of ignorance
by onlysoxfaninboston on Feb 21, 2010 5:12 AM CST up reply actions
I like his willingness to make risks.
I also like his view on trading prospects….. he just has a dickhead as manager.
Kenwo4life=ratings
KW also has an assistant who seems to be pretty good at what he does
Hahn’s bio on the Sox website suggests he’s had a main role in multiple “hits” and transactions which could be declared hits with more time. Without having any behind the scenes knowledge, it seems like KW’s strength lies in exploiting the peaks and valleys players experience in their career paths and Hahn has a talent for negotiating multiyear deals which are favorable for the club
Im glad you put the Valentine on there
I was a huge fan of him (pre SSS) and remember several fights with friends on his value. I didn’t understand the dollar value of defense then but I knew he was really good because of range regardless of errors.
You know I want to fight that Jose Contreras’s deal has no biz on that list, but I understand the inconsistent nature of his work. If that’s making a Top 5 list then KW has done damn well.
"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer
it completely sucks that Valentin got shat on
just because of a unique skillset. he was damn good.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Well....soxnet just tweeted
That detroit radio claims tigers now giving damon a sunday deadline…..
by stanchar on Feb 20, 2010 4:05 PM CST via mobile reply actions
i see what's happened here.
soxnet has replaced stanchar. whatever soxnet reports is happening, doesn’t happen.
and he has Alzheimer's now.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
this just in
Johnny Damon signs with the detroit hanshin tigers
well thats not good.
hopefully good ol’ andy jones is hitting 450 foot bombs in his first day of practice.
Kenwo4life=ratings
For more than 7M though...
Enjoy that cosmopolitan town, Mrs. Damon… heh…
Sign Jermaine Dye,
I’m not convinced that he has “nothing left” as most of you seem to think. His first half last year was All-Star worthy. He had a pathetic 2nd half, was that enough to just write him off?
2010 WhiteSox Baseball: "even if it works it's still stupid"
Jermaine would be a fabulous DH.
And only a DH. Don’t let him near the field.
Yeah, he sure is pounding sand...
He’s not the #1 agent for nothing.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
I don't at all understand how he manages to do this.
What kind of hypnosis does he unleash to induce GMs to wildly outbid themselves?
i'm sure the pitch was Damon will take
The one year in Chicago unless they up it to 8. The 2 year deal was pure BS. Boras saves some face and Detroit gets their guy. Meh. I could see Damon regressing big time and hating life if the Tigers get off to a bad start. The wife might just stay in Florida the entire season. Damon better hope Tiger stays in rehab or he’ll be on the prowl in the greater Orlando metroplex where his JDs lonely wife will be fuming.
by Duck99 on Feb 20, 2010 6:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
maybe he signed for a year off from the wife?
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
Well....I realize the season hasn't even started....
but in my opinion this is a brutal off-season for KW. I see the optimism for an outstanding rotation and strong bullpen, but I don’t like the lineup. Damon was the only guy out there worth getting……I don’t want Dye…..I don’t want Blalock…..I don’t want Sheffield…….F Lopez is best guy out there and he’s not a fit.
This may be my least favorite off-season of his so far.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 5:48 PM CST up reply actions
plus we have a crappy farm system from which to deal and the 2011 free agent
class is pretty awful. Boras now has bettered the relationship with KW so that KW will give Carlos Pena a ridiculous contract next season (not so far-fetched).
The idea is that they have enough now, considering all they have dealt.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
Not the greatest off-season for sure
But if you consider that Peavy and Rios were technically the bulk of our “off-season” I’d say he did some pretty good things to improve from where the team was last year and put us in contention for the division.
by Quickly 0 and 2 on Feb 20, 2010 8:32 PM CST up reply actions
Matsui at $6 million would have been nice
by Duck99 on Feb 20, 2010 6:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
or Thome at $1.5
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 7:38 PM CST up reply actions
8
"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "
by Chiburb on Feb 20, 2010 6:23 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I see this as follows:
KW said 6M, take it or leave it. Boras/Damon told Detroit that for only 1M difference they were going to the Sox. Detroit raised the bid to a substantial 2M difference, hence the signing.
Rightfully, Detroit paid a premium to attract a free agent.
I give Kenny credit for being in the game.
"his ballerness could not be stoped which rose his era to 5.42 "
by Chiburb on Feb 20, 2010 6:52 PM CST via mobile reply actions
no trade clause as well... as per heyman
http://twitter.com/SI_JonHeyman/statuses/9404160235
Kenwo4life=ratings
The no trade must really piss off his wife
She must be looking for divorce lawyers.
by Duck99 on Feb 20, 2010 6:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
All is not lost
I think it was right of Kenny to see if he could get Damon on the cheap. But my guess is that his bigger target was and is Adrian Gonzalez sometime this summer. He probably thinks the team as currently constructed, with this pitching staff, should be competitive and (hopefully) right at the top of the division into June. Then he sees himself bringing in the left-handed bat of A. Gonz, moves Paulie to DH/1B and BAM! – Post-season and World Series run!
So, I’m somewhat disappointed we didn’t get Damon. But I do see some light up ahead.
by Quickly 0 and 2 on Feb 20, 2010 8:08 PM CST reply actions
Possibly
Acquiring Dunn might not require selling the farm the way Gonzalez probably would.
by Quickly 0 and 2 on Feb 20, 2010 8:36 PM CST up reply actions
The Adrian Gonzalez assumption is getting to the point of absurdity
what exactly will the Sox be trading for Adrian Gonzalez? The Sox have exactly three prospects who are worth a damn, one of which hasn’t played above low-A. There are several other teams who the Padres will talk to before even considering the Sox.
I guess it’s apprpriate that Damon finally signs with the thread listing KW’s worst moves, because this ordeal (not in not landing Damon, but the DH thing taken as a whole) is easily one of his biggest misses.
so trade one of them
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
by blackoutsox on Feb 20, 2010 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
honestly
some of you are starting to sound like Mariners fans. (not you)
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Feb 20, 2010 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
You bitch more than my old lady.
Let’s see what Ozzie can do with this team before we call it a bust. If it don’t work, Kenny will get a bat. They should know by the end of spring training so hold tight!
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 21, 2010 3:15 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with you about the Adrian Gonzalez thing
who do people think we are going to trade for him? They are going to want Beckham. I’d rather not venture down that road.
Kenwo4life=ratings
but the white sox are such swell guys
that’s gotta count for something…but yah no way in hell the Sox get gonzalez unless we decide to part with beckham
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
have a cigar, bitches.
wtf. don’t smoke that shit around my son.
/dozed off between writing this and clicking post. no fucking lie. thats what i get for trying to think of something clever to say.
by Trooper on Feb 20, 2010 9:48 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
so the lady has popped? mazel tov!
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
by thatshortkid on Feb 21, 2010 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Good going, Dad.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
by winningugly on Feb 21, 2010 1:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
oooh now I get it.
I read this yesterday as t-dogg posting it and figured I missed something.
congratulations man.
that dozing off is the best sleep you are going to get for the next 4 months.
" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
Just put up a dreambaby baby gate for my pug
We want her to have more room when we’re gone. It went up easy and comes with everything you need. And you don’t need to use the screws, there are double sided tape discs.
I recommend it! Comes from Target. Extensions are available.
Just look at the woman you live with
and breath a sigh of relief. Because you have zero nurturing genes unless you are like KenWo and are gay.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
dont be jealous because I am the greatest dad ever.
my kid bought me a tshirt that said so.
Kenwo4life=ratings
you really must be a good dad.
i certainly admire any father who sends his child out to be gainfully employed and have enough money to purchase tshirts.
I could really use some fucking baseball.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
I like the success in trading CF's
Reed for Garcia, Young for Hobby…to a lesser extend Rowand for Thome, seems to have worked out ok for the Sox.
by southsideirish on Feb 20, 2010 10:44 PM CST reply actions
brian anderson
for 1/3 of our dh rotation, mark kotsay!
you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry
chet lemon for steve kemp.
jim landis for tommie agee, tommy john and john romano.
you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry
epic fail of an offseason IMO
Team still might be good enough to win the shit division, but jesus just looking at the deals the DH type guys got tells me a mistake was made pulling the trigger on Kotsay/Teahan/Jones/Vizquel so damn quick.
Marginally, Thome, Damon or Matsui would have improved the Sox the most of any other signing they could have reasonably made.
Fuck this is going to burn me all season long to see a .700 OPS out of the DH while Matsui/Thome/Damon all easily surpass .800
Thanks for coming back for spring training and beating the fuck out of a dead horse.
"You two need to get a room filled with condoms and calculators!"
by Where Triples Go to Die on Feb 21, 2010 4:43 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
x

" I can tell you are a peer." -winningugly to the Hooligan
by e-gus on Feb 21, 2010 11:23 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Big rec, e-g,
you POS. I can tell you are a peer.
I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.
I just assumed that this read: "I can tell you are a pear."
I’ve come to expect spelling errors from you sir. You disappoint.
Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death
Gonzo
Jake Peavy, surveying his locker row that includes Buehrle, Linebrink, Jenks: "We got a lot of rednecks around here.’’
Hopefully the KKK gets a lot of Ks.
"I call Dotel, got his ass kick. I call Linebrink, got his ass kick. Everybody I call is the wrong guy. I guess it's my fault!"
good lord.
its gunna be a long year.
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Feb 21, 2010 12:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

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