White Sox Roster (un)Officially Set
You can't say that White Sox camp has been drama-free this spring, but there hasn't been much drama regarding the on-field decisions surrounding those final few roster spots. That's what happens when your off-season is spent signing bench players.
The Sox entered camp with only two available spots to be won; the final bat off the bench (who because the Sox already have 5 outfielders should also probably be an infielder) and the final bullpen spot(s), both of which appear to have been wrapped up.
Realistically, Jayson Nix had his spot wrapped up by simply showing up. Anyone who saw Brent Lillibridge get completely overmatched last year could have told you that. So the easy conclusion drawn by anyone following closely is that the only real decision has come down to whether to take 7 bullpen pitchers or one last outfielder; or Sergio Santos vs. Alejandro De Aza.
Recently, De Aza received some love from FanGraphs (it exists), and I couldn't help but remember a similar sentiment expressed about Jerry Owens. (Though I seem to recall a more full-throated endorsement when he first landed in Seattle. Maybe that was on USSM.)
Owens has been the focus of scorn and derision from White Sox fans who had to endure Ozzie Guillen’s attempts to make him an everyday player, which he simply isn’t cut out for. However, as a fourth outfielder, Owens is actually a useful player. His defense is a real positive at all three spots and he’s a very good base stealer. He doesn’t have any power, but he’s an excellent contact hitter who is willing to draw a walk from time to time, so he won’t kill you at the plate. For a team with a lumbering corner outfielder who could use a pinch runner/defensive caddy, Owens is a good use of a roster spot. These aren’t the only four interesting players on the list – they’re just the four I wanted to talk about today. Teams looking for value will be perusing this list very carefully, looking for guys who offer a bit of potential and come at no real cost.
De Aza may well turn out to be a useful player -- maybe even a 2.2 win player as FanGraphs says, though I doubt it -- but it seems more likely that he's just like the various Owens clones floating around the league, a 4th outfielder with speedy "upside." That wouldn't be so bad if the Sox didn't have three 4th outfielders on the roster already (with two of them defying their talent-relative-titles by being penciled into the starting lineup on any given day). The fact that the drop-off from Juan Pierre to De Aza is projected to be so small speaks volumes about the White Sox mis-allocation of resources. It's not that the Sox are paying $8.5M to Pierre because he's the most cost effective way to add a speedy .680 OPS to the roster, they're paying him more than the league minimum that would be shoveled De Aza's way because Pierre figures to have less volatility in his production over the next two years. The Sox know what they'll be getting.
All of which is a roundabout way of me giving Ozzie a full-throated endorsement to go with seven pitchers. I've seen all of about 10 pitches from Santos this spring, and I don't need to see any more. He's got a big fastball and a functional breaking ball. The Sox will lose him if he doesn't make the roster. And even though he hasn't quite demonstrated major league control as of yet, that fastball and his limited time on a professional mound would seem to make him an ideal candidate for camp Cooper's learn-on-the-fly approach.
Elsewhere:
- Tyler Flowers knows he has to work on his bat, cuz you know there's a key offensive position yet to be claimed
"The only thing I feel holding me back is my offense," Flowers said. "I struggled in camp, but I've made some adjustments working with [hitting coach Greg Walker] and I feel a lot better, like I'm back in it."
Great. Walk'll fix 'em. -
A brief trip down to the Minor Leagues looks to have been "the perfect solution" for Mark Teahen's Spring Training woes with the bat, which is why the Sox are "counting on his defense." Ugh.
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Man oh man.
Gonna try and keep the expectations nice and low.
Side effects may include: Thrifty Knuckles, Sexual Nightmares, and Sleep Crime
"an excellent contact hitter who is willing to draw a walk from time to time, so he won’t kill you at the plate"
So now Owens is Tony Gwynn…..too much fish and canadian water up there in Seattle is effecting all their brains – that’s what I think. Oh and not enough J-walking. Sorry HSA that you have to co-exist with those crazies.
Plus, keep Santos on the roster, g-d*mmit.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
watched a late night episode of frasier last night
in which he insulted seattle by telling a depressed woman to leave the town. i didnt watch the rest of the show, purely because the history channel had a sniper on sniper warfare happening.
i laughed hard at both.
If the woman is offering an opinion, you are doing it wrong. - HSA
I'm pretty much with you....
but do we really need Randy Williams?
he's a solid loogy, gota have more than just Thorton out there.
2010 WhiteSox Baseball: "even if it works it's still stupid"
i was reminded of this quote
from a tht article a few years back:
The LOOGY is a class of pitcher deployed in a very high proportion of high-leverage situations, but without a particularly impressive record of effectiveness.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Mar 24, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Though with the lefthandedness of the Twins it might be of some importance in the division.
Though Gardy could mitigate that somewhat by not batting lefties back to back, right?
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
You mean I have a flair for the obvious?
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
I'll say this again
If the staff proves effective and efficient, I don’t think there is any reason at all not believe they’ll move down to an 11 man staff. Overall right now I love this staff. Hell even Linebrink may be effective in the 6th (“okay lets not get crazy now,” said little tdogg)
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
little MM only says "okay lets get crazy now."
Cashing checks and having sex.
by MarketMaker on Mar 24, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
little tdogg
must’ve been dipping in the granulated sugar
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
so it's that kind of party
where’s the mashed potatoes?
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
by thatshortkid on Mar 24, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Does DeAza
have any options left? I know Santos doesn’t. So if DeAza does it’s a no-brainer.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
he can be sent down
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
Well there ya go.
Why lose Santos when you can send De Aza down, let him confirm that he can handle AAA and have him ready for the Quentin/Kotsay injury (hopefully Kotsay). Easy decision.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
(Hopefully Pierre) Fixed.
It ain’t my money!
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
Well
I doubt he’s more valuable than Pierre.
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
Pierre is absolutely more valuable than Kotsay.
How is this a debate?
"Qualls took over, and then Konerko took over." - Joe Buck
its not
I was saying he’s more valuable than Kotsay and DeAza
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
Yeah, I should've replied to Chiurb, not you.
"Qualls took over, and then Konerko took over." - Joe Buck
This, from larry on Mar. 18:
De Aza certainly isn’t as good as his spring line so far, but he’s a very interesting player. He didn’t play at all in 2008, but he had a decent season in Double-A as a 22-year-old in 2006 and then had an excellent season in Triple-A upon his return in 2009, putting up a 130 wRC+ in 300 PAs. Thanks to this minor league performance, De Aza is projected to be a near average hitter this season. He has a good defensive reputation and is extremely fast. As such, De Aza is probably a +5 or better defender in the corners and near average as a CF, and that’s a conservative estimate.
With that offensive and defensive profile, De Aza projects as a roughly average player for next year. This kind of player certainly doesn’t grow on trees, and the fact that they were able to steal him for the Florida Marlins is surprising. CHONE projects De Aza for 1.2 wins in only 325 PAs, or 2.2 wins in a full season of work.
Compared to Pierre’s projected 1.6 WAR? I know, I know: “Clubs don’t run their teams by CHONE projections, veteran presence, there must be a reason why De Aza fell into the Sox org…”
But: I don’t think it’s as far-fetched as you and RWS make it out to be.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
isn't this from fangraphs (if it's really larry, sorry!)
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Mar 24, 2010 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, and larry posted it on the 18th.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
and to clarify further...
This is what I added to it:
Compared to Pierre’s projected 1.6 WAR? I know, I know: "Clubs don’t run their teams by CHONE projections, veteran presence, there must be a reason why De Aza fell into the Sox org…"
But: I don’t think it’s as far-fetched as you and RWS make it out to be.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
I didn't say anything about De Aza.
I just know that Pierre is better than Kotsay, and can’t imagine wanting Kotsay on the roster over Pierre.
"Qualls took over, and then Konerko took over." - Joe Buck
Then you didn't mean to reply to me.
I responded to bhoov about De Aza replacing an injured Kotsay, but “corrected” him with Pierre.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
and to further clarify
I said at this point based on what he had done in the show with his abs it actually was a stretch. No its not impossible, but Pierre actually DID produce a 2 WAR season in 380 abs last season so its no sure cookie he’s locked into some 1.6 WAR number.
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
conclusion in this confusing exchange (lol)
DeAza should not replace Pierre on this roster and if there was an injury the preference would be Kotsay not Pierre, your response seemed to indicate that you disagreed with that.
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
Yes, I disagree with that. Pierre is the biggest mistake this off season.
For this kind of projected (there’s that word again!) production, Pierre would be my “choice” to go down with injury and be replaced by De Aza:
Giving Pierre a projected wOBA (as more or less projected by the Fans and Bill James, it would seem) of .311, with a league average of .330, makes Pierre worth around -9.5 runs offensively in 600 PA. If that passes as 150 games (which I doubt he would get to), the modest Zimmerman projection of +3 runs in that time period yields 6.6 Runs Above Replacement, or 0.7 WAR. And that’s if Pierre plays 150 games. Considering that Pierre is still owed $10M this season and $8.5M the next and, well, you figure out what’s wrong with giving up anything for the privilege of his play.
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/12/15/1201732/kenny-williams-strikes-again
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
I dont see the point of his full salary
the White Sox aren’t paying it. You don’t see the HUGE issue with looking at these players past and recent history and determining the greater chances of production at said level?
Considering that Pierre is likely avg to above avg in LF this is really a non issue. Predictions are great when its one based off a solid history of that player DeAza is far from that criteria.
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
I don't understand why Pierre is such a SABR punching bag
He is who he is. The numbers guys determined that speedy, slap hitting leadoff guys who don’t really get on base were overvalued. I understand why.
Unless Juan Pierre is walking into major league front offices with a shotgun, the ballclubs choose to pay him more than he’s worth.
The White Sox shouldn’t deserve any criticism. It’s not like they gave up much in terms of talent, nor are they paying him a ton of money.
And – as I have said before – when compared to other Sox “leadoff hitters,” Pierre is Rickey Freaking Henderson.
I hope that was a digression. I agree with you, he is who he is.
And currently that’s a 4th corner OF that should not be given 500-600 AB’s at the top of the order. Or anywhere in it.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
Yeah, it was a digression.
I agree with you.
But there have been so many 4th outfielders at the top of the order that it’s refreshing to have one with so few question marks.
And that’s just sad.
Pierre is going to be a MONSTER this year. Just you wait and see.
i don't fuck corned beef.
which is why i don’t eat at subway. by larry on Mar 17
by South Side Expat on Mar 24, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
His salary was not part of my argument. Essentially, the Sox
are paying “only” for a 1 WAR player. Which would be fine for a 4th OF.
As for the rest…
1. Past, recent history? What, that Pierre got lucky for 35 or so games last year and put up better numbers then he had in years?
2. I’d rather be surprised by De Aza’s upside than by Pierre reverting to ’07 and ’08 form.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
Yep. My glass is always 1/2 full... think BA!
When I’m Bally’s age it’ll be 1/2 empty and holding my dentures.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
well, you should keep in mind then that he also has a huge downside.
with pierre, you can probably take it to the bank that he’ll be a positive contributor, likely at the 1 WAR level but potentially up to 2 WAR. with de aza, you’ve probably got a much less likelihood of reaching those valuations – which is a best case, even by fangraphs standards – and a much higher likelihood of being a complete disaster.
yeah you lost me here
If you are arguing “beforehand” sure. You could take the chance on De Aza and use the surplus funds elsewhere. Absolutely. But again whats done is done and there is simply no way you can argue De Aza is MORE likely to outperfom Pierre.
"Have fun with those stats buddy"
"I still don’t see where what I said in my comments isn’t true. But hey a man gotta have his stats."
by Dils
And because you would rather Pierre get hurt than Kotsay,
that is why I should’ve replied to you, you confusing OPOS!
"Qualls took over, and then Konerko took over." - Joe Buck
i'd rather have the worst player replaced by a worse player.
say what you want about pierre, but he’s certainly better than kotsay. depending upon whose projection you believe, he’s superior to jones, too.
and one of the primary reasons i posted that fangraphs article was to highlight the ridiculousness of projecting de aza to be a 2.2 win player.
"one of the primary reasons "
I understood that at the time.
You’re right, this is more about Pierre than De Aza.
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
Agreed.
The idea of De Aza is much more exciting that the reality of De Aza — kind of like the idea of the backup quarterback is more exciting than the actual backup quarterback. Unless your starting quarterback is Rex Grossman.
If you are in a position of strength, yes.
If you are Kansas City, roll away. With our SP I think the more predictable return in the field/plate is preferable.
He's a cunning Jew. by Ozzie Montana on Mar 13, 2010 3:30 PM EST
Really?
I’d rather have Pierre on the roster then Kotsay.
by Grinder in Training on Mar 24, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Jerry Owens PLAYED last year?
J.O. actually played in 12 games last year.
I must have erased it from my memory…thank God.
"We have to say the American public overwhelmingly voted for socialism when they elected President Obama." - Rev. Al Sharpton
I'd prefer to experience an alien "probe" rather than remember JO
"We have to say the American public overwhelmingly voted for socialism when they elected President Obama." - Rev. Al Sharpton
ona completely semirelated note
i watched coneheads yesterday, while the plumber was here.
If the woman is offering an opinion, you are doing it wrong. - HSA
in MY FlashForward, Adrian Gonzalez is our DH
also, I’m trying to solve Juan Pierre’s murder.
His name is Rios and he dances on the sand
Chiburb. In the sauna. With his cane.
"Qualls took over, and then Konerko took over." - Joe Buck
by RWShow on Mar 24, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
doesn't seem to be that big of a change, but:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5024611
MLB moves off-day from middle of LCS

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