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Metaprimer: UZR

Second in a series without end. I wrote in wOBA at the leadoff position.  I guess that makes UZR the bat handler.  And for now I'm going to sidestep similar systems like Plus/Minus, SAFE, or PMR.  The fact that UZR is on fangraphs makes it by far the most relevant.  Thank MGL next time you see him in a thread somewhere.

I know I was asked to do a WAR primer next, but I want to take on the major components before I look at position player WAR.  I think going slow will make it easier to make sense of everything when we throw it all in together.  Not to mention some guy named Dave Cameron took basically the same approach at fangraphs.  Whatever that is.

Where to start with fielding?  While errors or fielding percentage get some play, I think defense is assessed by the typical fan with the ever popular Eyeball Test.  This makes sense.  But let's first figure out...

What's Wrong With Errors?

Last time we started by dissecting batting average.  Errors/fielding percentage is much the same.  It's not that they don't tell us anything.  They do.  And, as we'll see, UZR incorporates errors and is actually able to assign them a run value.  But, like batting average, they simply exclude too much important stuff to do the work we want them to do.

Most importantly, they only measure skill after a player has reached the ball.  This is by definition and the usual rule of thumb used by official scorers usually boils down to "did it bounce off his glove?" The official rulebook definition looks like this:

The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch...

It goes on from there.  On and on.  Anyone who's watched the game has questioned an official scorer's decision on an error before.  So in addition to leaving out all defensive plays where a ball does not deflect off a glove, the definition itself is hard to nail down.  Dividing errors by chances to make the rate stat fielding percentage doesn't fix any of this.

The Eyeball Test

As I said, I think most fans are fairly aware of the issues with errors and have their own version of The Eyeball Test.  As it turns out, this is super useful.  Tom Tango has incorporated this fact into what he calls the Fan Scouting Report.  In his own words:

There is an enormous amount of untapped knowledge here. There are 70 million fans at MLB parks every year, and a whole lot more watching the games on television. When I was a teenager, I had no problem picking out Tim Wallach as a great fielding 3B, a few years before MLB coaches did so. And, judging by the quantity of non-stop standing ovations Wallach received, I wasn't the only one in Montreal whose eyes did not deceive him. Rondel White, Marquis Grissom, Larry Walker, Andre Dawson, Hubie Brooks, Ellis Valentine. We don't need stats to tell us which of these does not belong.

Tango solicits input from whomever he can get and averages these individual scouting reports into a total score.  James Surowiecki would certainly approve.  Moreover, random fan, the focal point of the sabermetric community values your own personal Eyeball Test.  It's kind of flattering, really.  But before you run off to scouting school, remember that it doesn't weight your eyes any more or less than anyone else's. 

The wisdom of crowds is a well accepted tenet, so checking out the FSRs for fielding evaluations is an absolute must.    Tango generally insists they're better than UZR, to the extent that they have fewer misses; this is good data.  But if we want a wOBA analog that can be used in a WAR calculation, we want a rate stat denominated in runs.  FSR is expressed on a 1-5 scale where 3 is average.  For example, here's all shortstops with at least five votes.  With a few assumptions this can be turned into runs above average per X games, but you'd have to do that yourself.  I'd love fangraphs to come up with something, but so far not so much.  In their current formulation, the FSRs serve as an excellent sanity check to the various other fielding stats.  For example, they're great for determining the appropriate mean to regress to.  That said, we're after a white whale.  FSRs are closer to desert sand in hue.

Star-divide

Enter The U

First, credit where credit's due: UZR is Mitchel "MGL" Lichtman's baby.  Praise be his name.*  Okay, onward.

It's important to think about what we should we be looking for in a more specifically quantitative fielding metric.  Think about it in terms of wOBA.  Tango's invention works well because we can compare everyone to some average and because it's denominated in runs.  This is obviously way easier with hitting since the records are evident.  No one wonders whether or not the back of a baseball card is correct in the number of hits attributed to the player.  A walk's a walk.  A hit's a hit.  But there's no record of how far the fielder ran to make the catch, or how much time he had to do it in, where on the field he did it.  In essence, we want to figure out whether or not he should have made the catch. But there's plenty in doubt aside from the putout itself.  This is why fans have to resort to the Eyeball Test in the first place.

But what if we had

Armies of new college grads who collectively would watch every game and keep a detailed log of what happened to every batted ball: what kind of pitch was hit, where the ball was hit, how hard it was hit, who fielded it and how it was or wasn't turned into an out.

It turns out there are two such companies paying for such: Baseball Info Solutions, founded by John Dewan (inventor of plus/minus), and STATS Inc.  Now, annoyingly, it turns out that there are some discrepancies between the two.  Say you run UZR on Andruw Jones before he got fat with BIS info, you'll find he was an incredible center fielder.  Do the same but with STATS info, and he was an average one.  Remember what I was saying about the FSRs as a sanity check? 

The discrepancies kind of distract from the real point, though.  Which is this:

The data used in calculating UZR was observed by human eyes and recorded as such — usually by multiple people per game, to weed out bias. In other words, UZR is based on eyeball data. It just takes a heap of such data and compiles it into a workable statistic.

UZR, like FSR, is at its core about processing human observations.  You can object to exactly how they're done, but if we're looking for something rigorous, something worth citing, then it we need to look at things systematically.  If there are discrepancies, they can be resolved with better observations.  And while we work on that, why not use what we already know is useful?  Like Tango says:

All data provides value, as long as you can pick out the biases.

In sum: the basis of UZR is folks watching games.  And I guarantee you they aren't getting paid a ton.  They're doing it because they love baseball.  Probably as much as you, Mr. Yu Z. R. Skeptik.

The Nitty Gritty

Sister site Bless You Boys' Mike Rogers has been running his own primer series.  He begins thusly:

UZR splits the field into 78 different slices called zones. Don't worry, only 64 of those are used in the UZR formula. You figure out the average number of balls in play in each zone and then the rate at which plays made are recorded in each zone. This will give you a baseline average for the position. Now, you do this on an individual basis and graded against what the average fielder would do. If a player comes out with less plays made recorded in their zone compared to league average, they have a negative zone rating. As well, they'll have a positive zone rating if the player records more outs in the zone than the average defender at the position.

Hmm.  Split how?  Like so:

Ept_sports_mlb_experts-218636783-1262885762_medium

64 of 78 are used because

...infield line drives, infield pop flies, and outfield foul balls are ignored. Pitchers and catchers are not included.

While I couldn't find exact reasons given, these are smart assumptions.  Pitchers and catchers mostly field bunts, swunts and the like, while infield line drives are almost exclusively the result of positioning.  Infield pop flies are almost always outs and outfield foul territory differs significantly from park to park.

You may also be wondering how MGL came up with 78 instead of, say, 50 zones.  Or 4.  Basically, there's a trade-off between getting sufficient samples per zone and enough differentiation between positions that share zones.  RAB illustrates this with an example:

To make things a bit clearer, we’re just trying to determine which player was responsible for which hits. So if there are 1,000 hits and 1,500 outs in Zone 56, we want to know how many of those outs the third baseman converted, and how many the shortstop converted. Using this ratio, we can determine the responsible party for the hits. So, if the third baseman made 70% of the outs recorded from Zone 56, 1,050 in this example, he’s also responsible for 70% of the hits, or 700. That’s the baseline we apply to individual fielders.

If the zone is designated such that it's too big, determining individual responsibility becomes problematic.  The point of zones is to give a point of reference in real terms between two fielders.  If every zone is significantly shared, the result is an insufficient gradient.

So far I've only outlined a range measurement that boils down to outs/chances. How do we go from range to runs? Remember linear weights?  The same concept goes to work here.  Using the specific details of the batted ball (which zone did it land in, was it a GB/FB/LD, etc.), we can generate an average expected value for the batted ball.  A line drive rocket to the gap probably won't often be caught, but it also likely won't be a HR or a single.  Let's say 50% of the time it's a double, 40% it's a triple and 10% of the time it gets caught. 

So the average value of that batted ball = .5*run value for 2B + .4*RV3B + .1*RVout = .5*.75 + .4*1 + .1*(-.3).  That's the value of that batted ball to the batter's team on average.  The difference between the safe run value and the out value is the runs saved by the catch.  So the frequency of that catch above average times the runs the catch saves times opportunities gives you runs above average for a fielder in a given zone.  Divide by opportunities and it becomes a rate stat like wOBA.  To make it more usable by the average fan, the result is often prorated to 150 games.  This isn't actually that different from calculating fielding percentage, except it's compared to some average.  The concept is the same, but the measurements are far more useful.

MGL doesn't stop there, however, and makes a number of adjustments.  For example, we know that managers adjust their lineups based on the handedness of the pitcher and that most balls put in play are pulled.  So if a pitching staff happens to be particularly RHP heavy, there will be more balls hit to the right side of the infield.  An average infielder on the right side of this hypothetical team will make more plays than the average fielder that has nothing to do with his ability to field.  The effect is fairly small, but it's still a clear bias in the data worth picking out. 

From there, there are calculations for contributions for outfield arms, double plays turned and errors made.  Add everything up and the result is the UZR figure found on fangraphs.

Um. So?

Well, for one this means that the problems of UZR have to do with attribution and observation quality.  At the team level, UZR works very well.  We more or less know the value of the batted balls thanks to linear weights and we know whether or not those batted balls get caught.  It's just a matter of deciding who was supposed to and figuring out where to draw the line between line drives and fly balls.**

And at the individual level?  The main problem is sample size, not methodology.  Colin*** Wyers, remembering that the Deputy loves dots, investigated the persistence of UZR and concluded

  • Everything regresses to the mean. A hitter in 300 PAs should be regressed roughly 50% to the mean. (Assuming all you have is those 300 PAs, of course.)

  • Defensive metrics are less reliable than offensive metrics. (Which - see above - are not as reliable as they are sometimes treated, when it comes to determining a player's inherent level of ability.)
  • An infielder's UZR is more reliable than an outfielder's UZR. This is partly because an outfielder sees fewer chances than an infielder, and partly because outfield defense is more difficult to measure than infield defense.

Tango usually says that 200 PA are about equal in terms of persistence to 400 BIP, where a SS/2B gets 5 BIP per 9 innings, 3B/CF get 4, LF/RF/1B get 3.  Even if Alexei gets 150 games at SS, that's only 750 chances, still not equal to a full season at the plate.  The data just does not accumulate rapidly enough to make a single season's UZR especially meaningful.

JUST TELL ME HOW TO USE IT ALREADY

 Sorry!  I'm just trying to cover everything!  Anyway, Mike Rogers gives us some nice guidelines:

  1. 1 year of UZR data is on par with about 50-55 [75 is more accurate****] games worth of offense.  Would you judge Miguel Cabrera's talents at the plate on just his games from April 1st through June? I wouldn't, and neither would you (or so I hope). So don't do it with defense. Personally, if I have three years of UZR data for a player, I'd rather have four. If I have four years of UZR data, I'd rather have five. I don't believe that you can have enough.
  2. One full year of defensive data is at least 1200 innings worth of data.
  3. Do not use UZR per 150 games (UZR/150; found on Fangraphs' player pages) if at all possible. It's way too misleading.
  4. If Player A is a -10 one year, +10 the next year and then +0 the next year, he's likely an average fielder. Large swings in year-to-year data isn't out of the norm, but you should always use an average (preferably, a weighted average) and be conservative with it.
  5. When possible, use multiple defensive systems to grade a player (UZR, John Dewan's Plus/Minus system, etc).

Eyeball the numbers, throw in a mental regression, be sure to check the FSRs and, if you're looking up somebody on your own team, remember that you're likely to overrate him. 

If you want something slightly more rigorous, for players with 3+ seasons, I've been doing the following:

Add up total UZR, divide by innings and multiply by 1350.  That gives you the average over however many seasons of data prorated to 150 games.  So that's presumably about where he was at the midway point of those seasons.  From there we can add an age adjustment.  Fielders peak around 22-24 and from there lose 1/2 a run per season.  Let's say the player has 5 seasons starting with his age 25 season totaling 30 runs above average.  That's a +6/150 roughly estimated true talent at 2.5 seasons played.  So the age adjustment is 2.5*.5, giving a rough projection of +4.75/150.  Round up and we'll call Player X a true talent +5/150 fielder at his position.  For reference, the equation looks like:

(UZR/IP)*1350 + (Seasons/2)*(-.5)

That isn't Tango/MGL/Saberauthority approved, it just made sense to me based on what I know.  It's quick and dirty, but the framework has a fairly consistent logic.  Tweak it if you don't like it.

 

 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

*is variously also known as Mitchell Lichtman, Mitchel Litchmann, Mmmitchel Llllitchman and Lover of the Jump.  to my knowledge he has not expressed a preference between these.  i merely made an arbitrary selection.

**eventually the hope is we'll have continuous functions with smoothing corrections instead of discrete zones and GB/LD/FB designations, replacing human observation with precision cameras able to give us specific vectors.

***I finally know how the Daves (Cameron, Gassko, Studeman, etc.) feel.  Not quite the beautiful unique snowflake I thought I was.

**** see http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/uzr_101/

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Excellent, as always

To be clear: are the 78 zones consistent across all ballparks? Are some dropped in Boston and Colorado?

White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man

by KarkoviceIsHawt on Mar 4, 2010 6:24 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

as far as i'm aware

why would they change in Boston or Colorado?

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 6:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Less room in Boston LF (less or smaller zones?); more room in Colorado's LF (more or bigger zones?)

That’s what I’m thinking, at least. I seem to recall from various conversations at BTF that the green monster causes some issues for UZR. I’d assume that would hold true to other stadiums with non-conforming outfield dimensions.

by CWSKeith on Mar 4, 2010 6:44 PM CST up reply actions  

oh right duh

there are individual park adjustments as part of the Adjustment Package i glossed over.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 6:48 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, that's what i meant

thanks

White Sox fan; Jeppson's Malort man

by KarkoviceIsHawt on Mar 4, 2010 10:28 PM CST up reply actions  

here's a few i've wondered about.

do they take into account where a player is positioned at the beginning of the play? (and for infielders, if line drives aren’t counted, why are ground ball rockets counted? both would be dependent on positioning, no?) and related, what impact would a tremendous center fielder have on the right and left fielders?

how do they decide how hard a ball was hit? do they use speed off the bat? if not, could they?

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Mar 4, 2010 6:53 PM CST reply actions  

they do not

i suppose they could have asked the stringers to do that, but they didn’t.

a tremendous center fielder will only have an impact wherever there are potential attribution issues. that is, anytime there are situations where either the corner OF or the CF might have made the play.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 10:04 PM CST up reply actions  

So who

do you believe? Tango would say that 300 PA is equal to 600 BIP or that 2 years of UZR is equivalent 1 year of offensive data. Rogers’ statement would make that more like 3 years of UZR equals 1 yr. of offensive data.

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Mar 4, 2010 6:54 PM CST reply actions  

Since colin and I had the tete-te-tete re: Jeter last year

I’d be very interested in this answer.

And you’d better be at the meet-up, Doc.

I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.

by winningugly on Mar 4, 2010 7:20 PM CST up reply actions  

it's not like Jeter is a great athlete with crap fundamentals

finally putting it all together. he has an extensive track record and now he’s old. in what universe does that enable him to become a better fielder?

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 10:46 PM CST up reply actions  

HGH.

And prayer. You should try it sometime. I myself am in better shape and have more UZR now than I did 30 years ago.

I just don’t feel like killing anyone else for as long as I can help it.

by winningugly on Mar 5, 2010 7:33 PM CST up reply actions  

dude gets paid to be in shape

there are no revolutions waiting to happen for him there.

HGH makes warped muscles.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 6, 2010 3:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Rogers is a Tango acolyte

they’re meant to be equivalent I’m sure.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 10:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Well

they’re meant to be perhaps. But they’re not. I’ve seen Tango say (type) many times 2 years of UZR has the reliability of 2 years of a good offensive stat (eg wOBA). 50-55 games does not equal 1/2 a season by anyone’s definition.

In any event, since I’ve seen his derivation of this estimation I’m inclined to believe Tango, meaning 1 year of UZR has the reliabilty of about 75 games or 1/2 a season.

Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.

by bhoov on Mar 5, 2010 3:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I have not seen him say

“I’ve seen Tango say (type) many times 2 years of UZR has the reliability of 2 years of a good offensive stat”

that.

I assume you meant 2 and 1. But Rogers was very likely trying to cite Tango, so go with Tango. The Wyers study gives you the actual data that Tango et al are probably referring to (or in the very least he’s able to repeat it), which is why it’s in there.

Here’s the relevant thread:

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/uzr_101/

I’m not sure if it’s worth adding an actual correction or not, but thanks for bringing it to my attention. He summed up the How To Use ideas nicely.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

blerg, hit enter too quick

…nicely, and i didn’t want the citation to look weird. maybe that’s not a good enough excuse to be somewhat wrong? but i really don’t think i’ll be throwing folks off citing 50-55 games instead of 75 right?

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 3:43 PM CST up reply actions  

i decided to add a note

the lack of accuracy ultimately bugged me.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 9, 2010 3:01 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the read...

Top quality shit…

It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.

They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.

by ElDiablo on Mar 4, 2010 7:20 PM CST reply actions  

seconded

Colin’s best post yet.

by e-gus on Mar 4, 2010 9:32 PM CST up reply actions  

well yeah

there’s a Wire reference AND a Wu Tang reference

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 11:10 PM CST up reply actions  

If what you say is true

the Teahan and the Pierre could be dangerous

by Sox-35th on Mar 5, 2010 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

nice

I need the C-Level one page summary. This is raw data, so what does it mean.

What’s missing is some links to last season and alltime rankings. I was looking for the same for your wOBA, google is befuddled.

A side-by-side ranking of UZR v Scouting Report would also be interesting, is that available in a table? Same with wOBA v OPS+

No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.

by ChicagoPete on Mar 4, 2010 8:08 PM CST reply actions  

fangraphs has wOBA and UZR stuff

Tango has done the latter. i bet “the book blog UZR fans” or something like that would turn something up. also, Tango’s site has a search function itself.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 11:24 PM CST up reply actions  

ah yes, fangraphs

Beisbol, el jugo bonita

No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.

by ChicagoPete on Mar 5, 2010 12:17 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Hadn't thought about it much 'til now.....

but would love to see Viciedo have a torrid spring and start to AAA and make himself a factor in the DH spot.

by stanchar on Mar 4, 2010 8:35 PM CST reply actions  

Based on the zones

would Ramirez’s uzr go up from running down all those deep pop ups he loves to catch?

and this was asked already but a runoff the last question, does the zones take in account where they start?

lastly, why exactly does the yearly range differ so much? You say its compared to only a short part of the season offensively ( I assume this is based on how many balls come their way compared to atbats) so could it be considered the usual luck that changes every 50 atbats?

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Mar 4, 2010 8:40 PM CST reply actions  

yeah I just realized most of my questions were already asked... sorry

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Mar 4, 2010 8:42 PM CST up reply actions  

if he's getting to balls

that other players at his position can’t, he’ll be rewarded in UZR. infield pop ups are almost always outs, but there is plenty of room from the dirt to the closest outfielder for texas leaguers to drop in.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 4, 2010 10:08 PM CST up reply actions  

great post colin

bullet points for the lazy should be on the front page post IMO, but other than that great work and if you had a good editor it wouldn’t be an issue.

by madvillian on Mar 4, 2010 11:01 PM CST reply actions  

sigh.

there are quite a few articles out there that explain what UZR is. colin is writing the why.

by larry on Mar 4, 2010 11:33 PM CST up reply actions  

many of which i linked to.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 12:04 AM CST up reply actions  

I really don't care, I really don't

I contribute nothing to this blog except endless sarcasm and over the top snark and drunken ramblings. Once upon I time when I was young like Colin and had not yet a full time job I used to write some cool saber oriented posts. But alas those days are gone. Maybe this summer…

However, in something called, “a primer” I don’t think you go into such detail.

again though, this is a great post, this blog is awesome, one of the best out there, colin is a great asset and so on.

by madvillian on Mar 5, 2010 12:20 AM CST up reply actions  

it doesn't bug me

i just don’t think you’re right. i used the prefix “meta” a bit to make fun of myself, but also because of the method employed. i’m a pretty good student of words.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 12:49 AM CST up reply actions  

right on, SSS is great blog, keep up the good work colin

you’re meta like like jay electronica, who everyone should check out if they are into hip hop.

by madvillian on Mar 5, 2010 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

he is apparently hard to check out

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 6, 2010 3:20 AM CST up reply actions  

you've heard this

 jay electronica – exhibit c, exhibit a

fabolous – exhibit f.

all 3 are crack.

"You actually talk about me to your wife??? I love it.!"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Mar 6, 2010 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah he is old as dirt, I doubt if he really blows up...

he’s nice though.

I’m telling you guys. Don’t sleep on big sean.

"You actually talk about me to your wife??? I love it.!"

by Where Triples Go to Die on Mar 6, 2010 6:08 PM CST up reply actions  

good stuff

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Mar 4, 2010 11:35 PM CST reply actions  

Early thoughts on Santos?

He appeared to feature three decent pitches. Threw a couple of really nice change-ups. They didn’t have a gun, but my eyeballs say mid-90s on the fastball (and I’m sure there’s a minor league thread that has an actual scout reading).

by CWSKeith on Mar 4, 2010 11:48 PM CST reply actions  

i didn't catch him

i saw danks and harrell and then started doing other stuff. which innings did he throw?

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 12:05 AM CST up reply actions  

yeah after i saw Raaaaandy coming on

i lost interest. there’s something about him that screams 2007.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 12:35 AM CST up reply actions  

i liked it.

it’s amusing that he has better control than daniel cabrera after pitching less than a year.

by larry on Mar 5, 2010 9:32 AM CST up reply actions  

OT: my girlfriend was going to email me details on a trip, and i told her to wtire me a short story. this is what she wrote
once upon a time, a young girl lived with her parents in a small neighborhood on the south side of chicago. at night she would dream about taking the train tosee her favorite baseball team, the white sox, play their hearts out. it was almost baseball season and the little girl could hardly stand it. opening day finally arrived and the young girl begged her parents to take her to the game. reluctantly, her parents agreed to let her skip school for the big event. the three of them got ready and left the house sporting sox gear from head to toe. they arrived at the stadium and then cried as the sox got their asses handed to them by the royals. the end.

what a bitch.

If the woman is offering an opinion, you are doing it wrong. - HSA

by BoeJouma on Mar 5, 2010 12:16 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

shes a keeper.

2010 WhiteSox Baseball: "even if it works it's still stupid"

by OznCoop on Mar 5, 2010 8:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Ya done good.

2010 WhiteSox Baseball: "even if it works it's still stupid"

by OznCoop on Mar 5, 2010 8:05 AM CST reply actions  

how does it deal with the 1B

and his ability on assists? shawon dunston and mark grace come to mind. who gets credit?

by Hatchetm on Mar 5, 2010 8:34 AM CST reply actions  

Bill James on Shawon
Bill James noted that Dunston was an “eternal rookie, a player who continued until the end of his career to make rookie mistakes.”

by onlysoxfaninbasel on Mar 5, 2010 8:47 AM CST up reply actions  

on assists?

if that leads to turning DPs, then it’ll show up there. otherwise, it’s not that big a deal. flipping to the pitcher isn’t exactly an art form.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

i meant putouts

grace saved dunston a shitload of putouts, besides all the errors he saved too. does he get credit for that? or is that just a 6-3, credit UZR to dunston.

by Hatchetm on Mar 5, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

ah

if Dunston got to it, it’s assumed that he made the play in UZR. it’s later adjusted via his determined error rate after the fact. so if Grace happened to be excellent to compensate for Dunston, there’s no “with you/without you” calculation (e.g. calculate Dunston’s error rate with Grace at first and without him) to figure out the quality of infielder arms. it’s assumed that there’s a negligible spread between major league infielders. it’s possible but i don’t know for sure if MGL studied the issue before making the assumption.

but i really really doubt there’s a significant number of runs to be saved in that manner. in any case, i’m not going to credit mark grace for being able to catch a crap throw, i’m going to discount dunston for making it. for one, it’s unlikely that grace was actually getting to balls that other first basemen couldn’t. two it’s unlikely that dunston was actually that bad throwing. unless he had a mild case of the Knoblauch strain of Blass disease, it’s just not that likely. it’s the sort of thing anyone can scout, y’know? so it’s improbable that the manager, GM and scouting personnel continued to sign off despite him sucking.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

i imagine the effect isn't that great.

but grace was a pretty good defender. he probably was getting to balls that most other 1B couldn’t.

by larry on Mar 5, 2010 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

grace saved a handful of runs for sure. anyway...

so the ability to scoop throws and stop errant throws is ignored? i’m just askin for my understanding.

by Hatchetm on Mar 5, 2010 5:12 PM CST up reply actions  

as far as i'm aware, yes

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 6:24 PM CST up reply actions  

OT: Anyone following the NFL free agency?

As a Packer fan, Ted Thompson is thoroughly pissing me off. I need some WhiteSox baseball!

2010 WhiteSox Baseball: "even if it works it's still stupid"

by OznCoop on Mar 5, 2010 8:36 AM CST reply actions  

for letting Clifton walk?

His name is Rios and he dances on the sand

by Nordhagen on Mar 5, 2010 8:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Clifton is done

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Mar 5, 2010 3:51 PM CST up reply actions  

for pitchers, they should give out a mark buehrle award

to the next best fielding pitcher after him.

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Mar 5, 2010 9:10 AM CST reply actions  

of course maddux was great.

he can have the NL award named after him, but he was crap at holding runners on first. also, not that gold gloves mean anything to me (though they do mean something to buehrle) but buehrle should have a bunch of them.

you are certainly one of the more ridiculous people on this board. ~ larry

by BuehrleMan on Mar 5, 2010 11:12 AM CST up reply actions  

Thank you for fixing the jump, mystery jump-fixer.

In Seattle, a resigned sigh escapes the lips of a foul-mouthed angel. ~wu

by homesickalien on Mar 5, 2010 10:29 AM CST reply actions  

Thanks!

Its a post full of dork! Love it.

by coffeepac on Mar 5, 2010 10:58 AM CST reply actions  

Reminder: Today’s is the 1st of 9 webcasts, presented by Illinois Blue Cross/Blue Shield, this spring. Go to www.whitesox.com at 2 CT to see

http://twitter.com/InsideTheSox/status/10035075930

by larry on Mar 5, 2010 12:09 PM CST reply actions  

WTF Bears!!

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Mar 5, 2010 1:10 PM CST reply actions  

lol

the new tight end will help. And if Peppers is really in the fold damn. This year in particular they really have no excuse but to do these things. Its just weird. Especially after the Cutler deal last year.

"You're lucky I'm retired"
Jack Bauer

by Tdogg on Mar 5, 2010 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I have the Sox game from yesterday DVR'd, is it worth a watch?

2010 WhiteSox Baseball: "even if it works it's still stupid"

by OznCoop on Mar 5, 2010 1:45 PM CST reply actions  

Jordy Danks and Viciedo played the whole game

and Sergio Santos made a good impression. everything else was stuff you’ve seen.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

this is the make or break year for Viciedo's prospect status no?

does well he’s still on pace to be a MLB contributor and perhaps more in the next few years, does poorly all bets are off…have to re-evaluate his chances of making a MLB roster anytime soon.

I do like that they threw him to the wolves in AA last year, hopefully he takes that as a sign of the orgs confidence in him and he hasn’t lost confidence from his performance, or at least the two even out somehow.

by madvillian on Mar 5, 2010 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldnt say its that quick

not the greatest comp but that Angels 1st baseman bounced between the majors and minors for 7 years before last season (cant remember the name)

RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010

an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry

by blackoutsox on Mar 5, 2010 3:55 PM CST up reply actions  

it's hard to hit enough to be a 1B/DH in the bigs

so it could take a decent amount of time before Viciedo is ready even if he advances at a fairly normal rate.

but if we’re hoping for him to be a Paulie-type, it needs to start happening at 21.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 5, 2010 4:07 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks colin

Do not use UZR per 150 games (UZR/150; found on Fangraphs’ player pages) if at all possible. It’s way too misleading.

can you explain why it is “too misleading”?

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
White Sox news, Minor Leagues updates and more

by The Wizard on Mar 6, 2010 9:35 PM CST reply actions  

because it extrapolates

without regression what he “would have gotten if he played 150 games”. except that there’s always regression and he didn’t play 150 games and even then, that’s still a measure itself that needs regression.

it’s the kind of thing that plays on a fan’s desire to project optimistically, which we’ve already seen they like to do.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 7, 2010 1:31 AM CST up reply actions  

got it, thanks

two things

one: in light of this, do you think this part should be clarified?

To make it more usable by the average fan, the result is often prorated to 150 games. This isn’t actually that different from calculating fielding percentage, except it’s compared to some average. The concept is the same, but the measurements are far more useful.

two: can we use something to compare players uzr’s?

I understand (I think!) that uzr isn’t only dependent on the player in question, but the players near him, so this comparison would be somewhat misleading; so can we compare something or is it better to not do comparisons at all?

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
White Sox news, Minor Leagues updates and more

by The Wizard on Mar 7, 2010 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

that's the reasoning given when it is prorated to 150 games, so no

and yes, you can certainly compare UZR. the measure has no value as it’s employed everywhere if we couldn’t. MGL definitely would not have released it for greater use as such if that were the case.

I quoted Tango as saying:

All data provides value, as long as you can pick out the biases.

there really isn’t a bias problem until you have two really good defenders next to each other. i.e. when multiple defenders could have gotten it, but only one did.

I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.

by colintj on Mar 7, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

thanks colin

The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
White Sox news, Minor Leagues updates and more

by The Wizard on Mar 7, 2010 6:26 PM CST up reply actions  

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