The Case for firing Ozzie Guillen
by 67WMAQ on Apr 29, 2010 7:16 AM CDT
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The lawyers among us should be familiar with the concept of the mock trial. Consider this the case against Ozzie Guillen.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, "Fire the manager!" is the typical meatball response to a slow start. I've been a fairly staunch Ozzie supporter. I think, by and large, he's done the best with the players he's been given. But 2010's troubles belong to the manager.
Ozzie should have had more than 83 wins in 2004. It wasn't his fault Magglio destroyed his knee. The pitching staff regressed in 2006. Freddy Garcia pitched with a shredded shoulder. 2007 belonged to Kenny, when his plan to stock the bullpen with young fireballers fell apart. The 2009 Sox Dyed with Jermaine.
2010 is the result of bad managing. He has not assembled a lineup that takes advantage of the players who are hitting.
Take Juan Pierre (please!). He's having a very hard time with the game of baseball. Yet he is still in the lineup, leading off. Gordon Beckham has been given time off to get right. Carlos Quentin has been given time off to get right. Ditto AJ. Mark Kotsay played himself out of an everyday role. But there's Juan Pierre, grounding out to second base.
Even if Pierre is taken out of the lineup, or bats lower, we'll probably see more of Omar Vizquel.
One of the things Ozzie supposedly brings to the table is a loose clubhouse. He likes to have fun, and that attitude supposedly extends to the players. Yet every year, the players are pressing, or "trying to do too much." Doesn't make sense.
After three dramatic wins over the weekend, the Sox should have walked into Texas with a little bit of swagger. They can get the big hits. Instead, we had Paul Konerko say home runs were a bad thing. Did he come to that conclusion on his own? Or did that come from the manager?
Another count in the indictment? The end of last night's game. Juan Pierre's troubles have been well documented. Andruw Jones should have pinch hit for Pierre, and Beckham should have pinch hit for Vizquel if the inning continued.
Gene Lamont was fired after an 11-20 start in 1995. Terry Bevington was fired after an expensive, and disappointing 1997. Manuel lost his job after the flame-out in 2003. I think it's time to start looking toward the future.
Feel free to add more examples.
But there are some ground rules: "He's a jagbag" is not a valid reason.
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I don't recall: did Ozzie actually lobby for Pierre's acquisition?
Interesting take, 67, but as infuriating as the non-pinch hit was, I wonder how he’d explain it. Did a reporter ask him?
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
Lobby for him or not
He’s still using the guy while Andruw Jones is clearly playing at a higher level.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on Apr 29, 2010 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions
From Dec. 2009
Sounds like Kenny wanted him, and Ozzie was thrilled to have him:
"He’s a special kid, he brings a lot to the table, on and off the field. He knows how to go about his business. He’s the type of player we were looking for, and is ready to play every day.
“I don’t know how Kenny did it, it’s a miracle. Nobody was more excited than me.”
ozzie may be to blame for 2-3 guys on the roster
who’s to blame for the other 22?
He's to blame for using them over the other 22 guys
KW did do a terrible job of putting the roster together though. Ozzie shouldn’t have the option to start Kotsay, Vizquel and Pierre because they shouldn’t all be on this roster. KW misread the market for the second year in a row and bought early when there were plenty of bargains to be had later. Ozzie is just exaggerating the problem by using the guys on his roster poorly.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on Apr 29, 2010 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Good point, they should all share the blame
CWS front office has always skewed contrarian since KW has been GM. If you’re a contrarian and it works, like in 05, you look brilliant. If it doesn’t work….
This team is built to be ultra-grindy, good defense, good pitching, sleaze out cheap runs and win close games. It looked a lot better on paper I imagine. You can’t lay all this at Ozzie’s feet. Garbage in, garbage out.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
By and large, the new players aren't bad
Jake Peavy can’t throw strikes (although he did right the ship after the 1st inning).
Teahen is good. Andruw Jones has been one of those KW scrap heap superstars. Alex Rios has been fun to watch, and he did prove Greg Walker right (in one respect).
Pierre, Kotsay, and Vizquel are strictly bench, defensive replacement, or Sunday players. OG’s the guy who is playing them ever day.
My concern is with lineups that don’t take advantage of people who are playing well, and a clubhouse that seems conducive to people clamming up for weeks at a time.
If Beckham and Quentin start hitting, then all bets are off. That day can’t come soon enough.
Kenny got Pierre and Kotsay
To be regular players. Pierre was brought here to be the starting left fielder, he’s only become a bench player because Andruw Jones remembered how to play baseball.
No one thought when Pierre was traded for that he wouldn’t be starting every day. They also went into the season with Kotsay as the left handed portion of a DH platoon, meaning a lot of starts. They have played themselves into bench players, but the roster was put together with them starting. That is on Kenny Williams. OG has to play at least one of them, Kotsay or Pierre, every day unless you want Vizquel or Donny Lucy DHing. Jayson Nix isn’t taking that role any time soon either.
The fact is OG has to play someone who is terrible at baseball every day no matter how he puts his lineup together.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on Apr 29, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I can do it!
AJ
Paulie
Beckham
Alexei
Teahen
Jones
Rios
Quentin
Thome
…crap.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
by colintj on Apr 29, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But you can
I wouldn’t be the first to suggest that Kenny is using this year to give Ozzie enough rope to hang himself or stop talking up small ball in the AL. I really believe Kenny gave Ozzie the players he wanted and the team he has pined for the last four years as a way to say put up or shut up. So I completely blame Ozzie for having the ego to think his way of playing the game (a way that had him batting ninth) is the way to construct a whole team. If it weren’t for the long balls provided by Paulie, Jones and (I’ll eat the crow) Rios, this team would have nothing to show for Ozzie ball 2010.
"Quantify my balls."
- KenWo
If that's the truth, shame on KW
if Kenny “knew better” but still gave Ozzie players like Pierre and Kotsay, fuck him too. That’s bullshit to throw away a season (or half a season) in the name of proving a point.
…which is to say I don’t buy that story. Kenny has made similar mistakes in the past (gambling on players who aren’t good bets) — usually the rest of the team can pick up the slack. And hey, sometimes those bets pay off. The Sox decided this year to gamble on two of the most important offensive spots. You get what you deserve.
i recall an early spring training interview with Jerry Reinsdorf
where Jerry said “Me and Kenny would love to have Thome but Ozzie is the manager and if we are going to hold him accountable we have to give him the players he wants”
Kenwo4life=ratings
right, but why the hell should Ozzie get that kind of say?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I'm not sure how I feel about Ozzie.
But I don’t think he’s to blame for Quentin, AJ, Beckham, and Ramirez hitting like crap. And if all those guys are in the tank at the same time, all the line-up shuffling in the world isn’t going to do much.
If Peavy winds up being merely mediocre (which would be an improvement from what he’s been so far), and Q continues his decline, and Pierre continues to Pierre, and Kotsay continues to Kotsay, and Viciedo never develops, and the farm system is a wasteland, Kenny’s going to have to take the fall.
Ozzie is the easiest scapegoat. KW can get a lot of the blame, but as a guy who's responsible for every person on the team
His success is a lot more varied. Selling low on Swisher was brutal, but then again this is the same guy who brought us Danks, Floyd, and Q, and has enough cache with a cheap owner to invest in two high-priced players. And I’m still under the belief that KW just wants Ozzie fired so badly he’s willing to throw a season under the bus to show Reinsdorf how far his manager has fallen.
Still, I don’t think he will have to suffer the embarrassment of getting canned. Most likely if they can’t turn it around by June he’s secretly pressured to “resign citing health reasons” and gets a cushy buyout.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
it'll be interesting seeing that documentary
The cynic in me also says KW set up Ozzie to fail. Let’s see what they say when the cameras are rolling, hopefully they capture the real dynamic.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Apr 29, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
you've been watching to much wire, i.e, i don't think kdub is setting up ozzie to fail
that’s too major league and kdub has nothing to gain from it.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Apr 30, 2010 3:19 AM CDT up reply actions
I still don't consider the owner of the team who has the 7th highest payroll to be cheap.
Granted, the revenues for a big city market team like the Sox make up for the expenditures…but still, I’ve said it before… we know the Damon money was there. The ceiling wasn’t hit.
Cheap would have been Thome for the left handed part of the DHydra, not this Kotsay BS. Ozzie wanted players. It’s on him.
i don't fuck corned beef.
which is why i don’t eat at subway. by larry on Mar 17
by South Side Expat on Apr 29, 2010 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah..
And I realize we’re in a big city, but we’re the second team. It’s not like we draw the same amount of fans as the Cubs or Yankees. Our payroll seems pretty high relative to our attendance.
I guess other teams could just be cheap, but I find it hard to complain about our top 10 payroll, when I go to a game and I see the place half full.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on Apr 30, 2010 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions
TAEG appearing for the defense. May it please the internet ...
Premature reaction is premature.
Ozzie is not Gene Lamont, Jerry Manuel or (for the love of God) Terry Bevington. We can’t (and won’t) fire the manager who brought this team its only World Series in 80-plus years, a 90-win season immediately thereafter, and then another playoff berth 2 years after that, for getting off to a bad start with an extremely flawed team. We just can’t.
Seriously, how much of this is Ozzie’s fault? Sure, Pierre and Kotsay have been awful and yes, Ozzie plays both more than I would like, but many (including me) were saying the same thing about Teahen a couple weeks ago. Besides, if you sit both Kotsay and Pierre, don’t you still have a giant hole at DH or LF? Who fills that? Lucynixquel? “Flowers”, you say. So, we bring Flowers up and DH him … doesn’t he baking at catcher? And if we play him at catcher … what, we DH AJ? Yeesh.
Pierre and Kotsay aside, why have we sucked? Well, let’s see … Jake Peavy and Gavin Floyd have been bad. Is that Ozzie’s fault? Half of our lineup, including the 2 guys who we were relying on to be our best hitters (Beckham and Q) have gotten off to disappointing starts. Did I say disappointing? I meant giant black holes of suck. Let’s put it this way: If Jake Peavy, Gavin Floyd, Gordon Beckham, Carlos Quentin, Alexi Ramirez and AJ Pierzynski play like this all year, Joe freaking McCarthy couldn’t get this team to .500 let alone the playoffs.
Look, I don’t care for “Ozzieball” (whether it exists or not) — I’m an Earl Weaver guy. Ozzie can make maddening decisions and his rants can be tiresome. I don’t expect this team to contend this year (I voted “no”). Having said all that, IME Ozzie is the best manager the Sox have had since I’ve been following them (late ’70’s). Yes, better than LaRussa (i.e., the early 80’s version of LaRussa). The record, assembled with teams that have been by no means overwhelming from a talent standpoint, speaks for itself. He’s earned more time than “April”.
The defense rests.
by The Actual El Guapo on Apr 29, 2010 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 10 recs
doesn't he baking at catcher?
Cashing checks and having sex.
by MarketMaker on Apr 29, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
L
e
s
s
.
Cashing checks and having sex.
by MarketMaker on Apr 29, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Definitely rec'd.
But I still leave Ozzie (and therefore KW) on the hook for Thome/DHydra. Years later, I’m still sick of the small ball b.s. in our quaint little Cell. I was thinking earlier that if we lost the division by a couple games because of lack of DH production, then Ozzie would be canned. Now it’s a real possibility that we’ll lose the division because of the offense in general, therefore (maybe, kinda, sorta) saving Ozzie’s job. Can’t blame the manager for (most) players not performing.
Like drinking poison, like eating glass.
If you fought Muslims as fiercely as you have fought for Ozzie
we’d have $1.00/gallon gas. But I like how you pick your battles. Rec’d.
I am more prone to be inquisitive to promote discussion.
by winningugly on Apr 29, 2010 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
yeah, i'm sure if the jews controlled the oil, it'd be a third of the price.
by larry on Apr 29, 2010 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
It would last 8 days,
so they’d still make a profit. You non-believer, you.
I am more prone to be inquisitive to promote discussion.
by winningugly on Apr 29, 2010 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
WU, you just made me laugh out loud.
"The Sox have a better home record than the Twins, but...we're not at home right now." -DJ
rec rec rec
i don't fuck corned beef.
which is why i don’t eat at subway. by larry on Mar 17
by South Side Expat on Apr 29, 2010 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions
You need a white suit and suspenders, like a smooth talking, big city lawyer
I’m with you. I can’t really tell you about a manager’s in-game strategy prior to Ozzie. I like him, I think he’s good for box office, and when the team is clicking, he’s a shitload of fun.
I wanted to toss the idea out there as a jumping off point for discussion. I don’t think OG really is to blame for a lot of the offensive problems (unless he told Gordon to go into a slump).
Juan Pierre got dropped into the 9-hole, and hopefully he will eventually reach a combo that works.
With Carlos nursing an ouchy hammy, how much do you want to bet Kenny is on the phone with Jermaine Dye?
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider.
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I’m a lawyer defending a major record company, and I’m talkin’ about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you’re in that jury room deliberatin’ and conjugatin’ the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
nuts.
by BuehrleMan on Apr 9, 2010 10:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
*facepalm*
by HappyHuman on Apr 9, 2010 10:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
by thecip on Apr 29, 2010 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 5 recs
I'm just a simple caveman....
i don't fuck corned beef.
which is why i don’t eat at subway. by larry on Mar 17
by South Side Expat on Apr 29, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
i didnt read wmaq's post
but I vote in favor of the plantiff thecip.
"the worst thing about this team is going to be the manager." - Ozzie Guillen, USA Today Sports Weekly
OT, but 67WMAQ will like this. Old people too!
For years (decades really) WLS Chicago was a monster Top 40 radio station. Clear channel from Chicago (that meant no other stations on that frequency), you could hear WLS at night almost coast-to-coast. Teens in far away hamlets in Iowa and Arkansas would thrill nightly to the likes of Dick Biondi, Art Roberts, Steve Lundy, and others. I used to hear them in Los Angeles.
So WLS was a station I always wanted to work at.
As fortune would have it, in 1988 my father became the General Manager of WLS. By then I was on staff of CHEERS. But when dad asked if the family would come out to Chicago for Thanksgiving I said, "Yes, under one condition. I want to do one all-night shift on WLS". He must’ve really wanted to see his grandkids bad because he agreed to that.
So we arrive in Chicago a few days before Thanksgiving and he says I can go on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning. Remember, I had been a disc jockey for a number of years at this point and was quite comfortable in the role.
I arrive at the station at 11:30, enter the studio, and see the memo that my father had posted. It said: "My son Ken will be doing the all-night show from midnight-to-six." A better way of putting that might have been "Ken Levine will be doing the all-night show from midnight-to-six." It’s the "my son" part that made it look like "bring your kid to work day".
Gets better here:
http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2010/04/my-one-nighter.html
"April showers bring May flowers and May flowers bring mathematical elimination day to Kansas City".--- Joe Pos
Love it!
Ken Levine is living my dream. Radio announcer, comedy writer, and baseball broadcaster? That’s the trifecta.
There’s something romantic about overnight radio. When I first started at my current place of employment, I had to do a couple of weekend overnight shifts. The show I was on got calls from Montana and the Carolinas.
I even started getting cards from a creepy woman in Birmingham, Alabama.
The overnight AM radio signal goes a long way.
Now what say you and I go toe-to-toe on bird-law and see how comes out the victor?
Charlie: All right, you’re getting hung up on “can’t”, and I’m not saying that you can’t. I’m saying that it is illegal.
Dennis: No, but it’s not illegal.
Charlie: Says the guy who knows nothing about the law!
Dennis: I can absolutely keep a hummingbird as a pet, bro. It’s no different than having a parrot or a parakeet. It’s a bird, bro.
Charlie: You really can’t, and I’m not saying I agree with it. It’s just that bird law in this country—it’s not governed by reason.
Dennis: There’s no such thing as “bird law”.
Charlie: Yes, there is.
Dennis: You know what? I’m going to get a hummingbird and I’ll show you.
Charlie: Hummingbirds…hummingbirds are illegal tender!
Dennis: I’m going to get one.
Charlie: You cannot.
Dennis: To spite you, I’m going to get one.
Mac: Where are we with gulls?
Charlie: You can keep a gull as a pet, but you don’t want to live with a seabird, okay, ‘cause the noise level alone on those things…have you ever heard a gull up close? It’s going to blast your eardrums out, dude.
Cashing checks and having sex.
by MarketMaker on Apr 29, 2010 12:44 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
A little, It's Always Sunny
Is exactly what I needed to get beyond the depression that is Juan Pierre, DH. Great episode.
"A common mistake made by baseball fans is to call a pitcher unhittable when that pitcher is not Matt Thornton." - Hardball Times
by Grinder in Training on Apr 29, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Juan Pierre is not a DH, he is a DS Designated Suckster
Just a Rip-off of the Actual El Guapo, but a fake not funny one.
by DrEmilioLizardo on Apr 29, 2010 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm all for rearranging deck chairs on sinking ships...
but I don’t support getting rid of KW or Ozzie at this point.
In general, I like to have a viable option when calling for someone to be replaced. For those that want KW or Ozzie to leave, who do you suggest as a replacement?
FUCK EVYTHING BACON RULZ WEER GONNA WIN TEH CHAMPSHIOP
...colintj, Nov8, 2009
a dead decaying dog
but seriously? cora cant be nearly as bad.
Watching this team is like jerking off 10 minutes after you just jerked off - billyok
Kenny will eventually be replaced by Rick Hahn.
I don’t know if there are other managerial candidates in the pipeline, and Walker would probably be replaced by Gary Ward – who lost his job to Walk in 2003.
Vinny Del Negro and John Paxson.
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on Apr 29, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
For those that want KW or Ozzie to leave, who do you suggest as a replacement?
tom tango
a guy can dream, can’t he?
:p
The greatest trick the White Sox ever pulled was convincing their fan base that "Ozzieball" ever existed.
White Sox news, Minor Leagues updates and more
Rick Hahn would be a nice replacement
But how long will it be until another team signs him. As far as replacing Ozzie I don’t really see any viable established replacements so we’d be looking at a rookie manager again.
The thing about KW is he’s very hit-or-miss and it seems like the organization is better at evaluating young unproven talent as opposed to veteran talent, JD and Thome excluded.
i assume it'll be like the Schueler/KW handoff
Ron did 10 years with the team as GM and moved up and out of of the way before finally riding off into the consulting sunset.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Has anyone considered blowing this whole thing up?
I know it is still April and all but if the Sox are burried in the standings by the time the All-Star break comes along would the organization be up for a rebuild? Building a team around Beckham, Ramirez, Floyd, Danks, Hudson, Santos, and Flowers? I doubt we’d get much for Konerko, Jones, AJ, Jenks, etc. but would it be worth going in a different direction all together?
three of those four will be gone after this season anyways
not much of a blowup
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
All the more reason to get some kind of value for them while you can
Not sure who, if any, would qualify as a Type ‘A’ FA.
let me count
1
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
ozzie, like all reality tv stars post real world 1, have a shelf life
Ozzie’s shelf life is about up.
I say that with hope, like KW and Hawn made some of these moves just to shut Ozzie the fuck up.
I like Ozzie, quite a bit. Guy was a hero to my dad growing up, and thus a hero to me. He brought us a world series. In a PC world he’s not afraid to say how he feels.
All that said, seems like this road has gone pretty far and it’s gotten pretty damn wild. Might be time to make a left at the next crossroads, ’specially is this jalopy he helped build proves not so sound.
does the prosecution have anything else?
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you exhibit A. Ozzie’s line-up for friday, May 7th, 2010:
Pierre7, Vizquel4, Jonesdh, Rios8, AJ2, Q9, Teahen5, Kotsay3, Ram6. Buehrle pitching.
The prosecution rests.
"the worst thing about this team is going to be the manager." - Ozzie Guillen, USA Today Sports Weekly
Pierre CF, Vizquel 2B, Kotsay CF, Q RF, Castro C, Teahen 3B, Ram SS, Kotsay 1B, Kotsay DH, Williams pitching
the defense rests
RIP Jim Thome 1-25-2010
an AL team not having a DH is like a giraffe fucking a mule. - larry
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