Sale, Chisox Agree On $1.656 Million
When Chris Sale started to slide in the first round of the draft because of signability, it was a surprise that the thrifty White Sox were the team that selected him. Now comes a bigger surprise: the first- or second-rated college pitcher on most draft boards has agreed to terms for a bonus equal to MLB's bonus recommendation for his No. 13 slot a year ago: $1.656 million.
Sale will take a physical on Monday and likely will sign his deal on Tuesday. He's the highest-drafted player to agree to terms so far this summer.
Sale and Mississippi lefthander Drew Pomeranz were the two best college pitchers in the 2010 draft. In recent years, the top college pitchers who have set themselves apart from the pack usually have received major league contracts. From 2004-09, 11 college pitchers signed big league deals with an average bonus of $3.3 million and a guarantee of $5 million.
While Sale will get less money than anticipated, the White Sox will give him every opportunity to crash their big league bullpen, perhaps as early as August. He'll initially report to high Class A Winston-Salem, with an anticipated promotion to Triple-A Charlotte in mid-July. After spending this summer as a reliever, he'll work in the Arizona Fall League as a starter and get the opportunity to make Chicago's rotation in spring training next year.
almost 2 years ago
larry
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hudson will be traded this year for a big bat since we are back in it BABY!
Kenwo4life=ratings
by KenWo4LiFe on Jun 20, 2010 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Who am I to not rec this?
"wordy and overly verbose."
by larry on Jul 3, 2009 3:43 PM CDT
by Black Sox Baseball on Jun 20, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll drink the Kool-Aid for now
That makes three
Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death
dumb dumb dumb
Watching this team is like jerking off 10 minutes after you just jerked off - billyok
I cannot root for this kid.
It would be his undoing. But it’s good to see us spending $ prudently.
Man, when BP gets done with the cleanup, they need to send him down there. The amount of sand in his vagina could easily restore half the gulf.
by South Side Expat on Jun 8, 2010 1:17 AM EDT
they're cheap
but this is three straight drafts now where they’ve picked a player others thought wouldn’t sign for less than x and thus passed on them, and the white sox grabbed them.
You havent been paying attention.
HI I HAVE BEEN DRINKING BEVERAGES
by billyok on Mar 13, 2010 5:22 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
by omnipotent grab on Jun 20, 2010 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Steal.
http://twitter.com/FutureSox
http://FutureSox.com
1st round pick
This is good to hear. About him joining the MLB roster, maybe he’ll be the 2nd lefty in the pen to go w/Thornton.
great signing
but isn’t everyone getting ahead of themselves with this kid joining the bullpen this year and even mentioning him trying to earn a starting spot next year?
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
I thought it wasn't signability that stopes him
Bur his arm slot causing other teams to think he was an injury waiting to happen, or that his upside was in the pen.
Regardless, I’m happy with the signing and $$.
I will not let readers of this site turn it into a festival of rudeness-Al Yellon (at his Cub fans).
by Chiburb on Jun 20, 2010 7:39 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Jeez. "Dropped him", and "but".
I will not let readers of this site turn it into a festival of rudeness-Al Yellon (at his Cub fans).
by Chiburb on Jun 20, 2010 7:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
is it ever one thing?
would you pay an overslot bonus and spend a top ten pick on a guy you think has mechanical issues or is bullpen ceiling? heck, would you pay slot? like many players, his agents were tossing out slightly ridiculous terms to which their player would only agree. i’m sure it entered into the mind of some teams. however, there were a few teams ahead of the white sox who aren’t afraid of overslot bonuses (and picked college pitchers), so i think the other concerns were more preeminent.
seemed to work...front office is turning into Marine recruiters.
“trust me on this, you’ll stay stateside for awhile, probably learn some weapons technology and be sent off to a foreign base in Germany, Italy or France…something like that.”
Next day shipped to GA for basic training and then sent out to Afghanistan.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Jun 20, 2010 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
i just love how it's a winning streak against the NL that actually made the sales pitch look viable.
at least if this streak is a head fake, something good came of it. a few bucks saved but, more important in my opinion, he’s going to be pitching in the minors before next season (or, if you want to get technical about how it usually happens these days, the AFL).
I agree...get him signed and working. This is all good news for the Sox
maybe even put Kenny in a good mood too.
"Jenks, who was never afraid to say "no" to a hamburger..."
by BobbySouthSide on Jun 20, 2010 8:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Its fantastic that he'll be starting his career
And shit we have randy freaking williams in the bullpen. He probably can get a few innings at the end of the year.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
i'm sure that was part of the pitch, too.
no lefties in the system, randy sucks, his job is your job if you’re halfway decent.
Doesn't the number one pick normally go to the worst team in a sport?
I think they know what they’re going into.
"wordy and overly verbose."
by larry on Jul 3, 2009 3:43 PM CDT
by Black Sox Baseball on Jun 20, 2010 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions
It seemed like you were speaking sarcastically.
As if you thought it was dumb to do what larry claimed and “run down” your organization to get a good player. I was simply calling attention to the fact that this, in actuality, happens every year.
"wordy and overly verbose."
by larry on Jul 3, 2009 3:43 PM CDT
by Black Sox Baseball on Jun 20, 2010 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions
mick is a beacon of sunshine
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
no why would I end it?
Cant mess with a great thing.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
All part of Reinsdorf collusion, part 2.
"We can't do it easy. But we may as well do it high." -The Cheat
by South Side Expat on Jun 20, 2010 8:39 PM CDT reply actions
Towards, if not AT the top. RT @SouthSidelarry: @Kevin_Goldstein now that he’s signed, where does sale rank in the thin white sox system?
he's forgetting about Hudson, right?
no way you’d take a guy who’s for sure dominating AAA over a guy who will debut at W-S. assuming that Hudson is #1, the reasoning: Sale can probably already LOOGYwhich makes him of major league quality now. if you think Viciedo or Flowers could do a turn playing 1B/DH and hitting lefties, then that’s worth about the same overall as Sale. presumably no one is biting on Danks or Mitchell at this point. if those qualified are equal in current value, it becomes an upside debate. Sale needs a third pitch, Flowers needs to fix that K hole and Viciedo needs an approach. without those fixes, let’s say they’re max average and probably 0-1 WARish. whoever you think is the easiest fix is your best prospect after Hudson, whose expected value in the MLB has to be better than a LOOGY, right?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Either of you
How about Porcello being sent back down? Thoughts?
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
just like you, i didn't like bringing him up last year
nothing has changed. probably was a likely result for a pitcher with his experience level. probably will be fine long term. they got a near playoff appearance out of it last season so perhaps the tradeoff will have been worth it.
your thoughts on eating cereal for dinner?
"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah
by Ozzie Montana on Jun 21, 2010 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Did so tonight.
Apple Jacks for the win.
Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death
i'd want more than Jon Garland from a guy like that
but i’d only send him back down if i thought he’d come back better.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I'm with you here
No way Sale ranks over Hudson for me, he would be firmly in the 2-4 range though.
http://twitter.com/FutureSox
http://FutureSox.com
by The Big Hurt on Jun 20, 2010 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions
i can dig it!
This is not early panic, it’s continued disgust with a situation we didn’t like to begin with. - Grinder in Training
this is partially off topic, but saying as he is mentioned a few times in this page..
Anyone else noticing obvious difference in Gordon Beckham’s mechanics? I am not talking about just pulling off of it, I was just watching video of his swing from his RBI Double against the Bucs, and his homer against Detroit (the one on ESPN), although almost any 09 video this is true as well. When the pitchers is about to release it towards home plate, last year Beckham seemed to have brought his hands a tad further back and closer to his body, this year they seem to be further away. Im not sure what this means, but the swing looked a lot better last year, this may have to do with the lack of power and also maybe part of why he is having trouble judging pitches. Id have to think he knows this, because its not that hidden, but I would think he would make an attempt to go back to this after struggling all year. I can post links of the videos too, so you guys can see what I mean.
OK, here are the two videos
First one: 2B against Pitt last week: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=9017097
time to look: pause at 0:01
Second one: HR against Det last July: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5763373
time to look: pause at 0:04
It seems this year he is starting with the bat further away from him and loading like i said, and then bringing it closer, so it seems its taking longer and generating less power and not reading pitches as well. I hope you guys take a look at this too, i may just be so frustrated im seeing things that arent there. Let me know if you guys see something similar to that.
it all goes back
to this
ruined him
Dan Patrick- "Why is this affecting you?"
Jeremy Roenick- "Its the Chicago Blackhawks man."
man is hawks laughter
infectious as hell there. my favorite part is him wheezing out “we lead it 7-3!” at the end.
Lurking since 2006
by boyonthedock on Jun 21, 2010 4:48 AM CDT up reply actions
nice! is this Rick Hauhn's doing?
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
about time he finds himself a GM job somewhere,
though of course he’s great to have around
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
Wow,
sounds like they have big plans for this guy, and quickly. Rotation next year, bullpen in August. Is he really that MLB ready?
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
as a reliever
perhaps. starter? no. “opportunity to make the rotation” is a euphemism for “we’ll let you start A games early in spring training”.
Sort of along these lines,
what are the chances we re-sign Freddy next year for a bit of a bump? Close to zero? Or is it just Hudson’s time come next year?
"I just want people to remember there's a guy in between these things."
assuming he finishes the year up the way he has pitched so far,
he will have about 16-17 wins, how could we not resign the guy?
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
umm money
and do you want to bet on a repeat performance with hudson ready? no.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Pure hyperbole, but...
Garcia could be waiting in the pen if Floyd/Peavy struggle early next year. If KW won’t commit to bats, what’s another two or three mil offered to Freddy? Just for the sake of argument.
"I just want people to remember there's a guy in between these things."
Wins, really?
We’re still using wins as our means of analysis?
http://twitter.com/FutureSox
http://FutureSox.com
by The Big Hurt on Jun 20, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
If he gets that many, presumably he's done something right.
Still, I’d hate for the team not to benefit beyond this year for the ridiculous bargain Garcia provides. If he goes kaput later this season, meh.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 20, 2010 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Heck yeah you re-sign him if he doesn't want a ridiculous raise
But if he wins 16-17 games you think he’ll pitch for his current contract?
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 20, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Nah.
They should probably let him walk, hopefully he’ll be a Type B free agent but that’s pushing it.
You guys win. You can keep your little marked-out piece of internet territory. Spend your days communicating via keyboard with people too ugly for the real world and too nerdy for anyone to care, anyway. Your piece of land is here. Do the rest of civilization a favor and stay within its limits. You bore me. Have fun with your nightly sobs and screams into your pillow over your inability to attract a good mate, Radiohead. ~The Hooligan
by Daniel Berlyn on Jun 20, 2010 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
You'll probably need to resign him when Williams trades Hudson for a bat.
He’s a decent #5, but if the rest of the staff returns, including Hudson, then he can still fill a role as the long man, taking over Tony Pena’s role (as his contract is up as well). Pena may take someone else’s role too, as our bullpen could look very different next year.
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 20, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Hudson ain't goin' fuckin' nowhere.
"I just want people to remember there's a guy in between these things."
Did you see Poreda going anywhere?
DLS? Gio? Chris Young?
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 20, 2010 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I suppose not.
But I still hold my ground. I think we’re going to see Hudson here for a long while.
"I just want people to remember there's a guy in between these things."
I like the cut of your jib
Reporter: I was wondering if at any point in my lifetime the Cubs weren't going to be run by a guy who didn't immediately remind me of failure, confusion, or imminent death
if we call him a 4 WAR player then he's worth 14M
this season. he’s getting paid 10 above minimum, so that means there’s 4M worth of surplus value. that’s a 1 WAR player. the best prospects become average or better at a .25 rate, with team control for 6 seasons. that’s 12 WAR*.25 = 3 WAR. so we’re talking a B level prospect, perhaps worse.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
This is really difficult for me to understand
You’re saying that if we acquired him at the beginning of the season, his current contract means we’re getting market value, plus an extra 1 WAR player?
Your last calculation totally lost me. Where did 12 come from? Where’d you get B level prospect from?
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
You’re saying that if we acquired him at the beginning of the season, his current contract means we’re getting market value, plus an extra 1 WAR player?
exactly. which means that you get in return, in estimation, equal to what you send. so if Fielder is cheaper than market, then he has surplus value. his contract plus surplus value is equal to market value.
the last calculation is a 2 WAR player (an average player) times 6 years of team control times probability he becomes a 2 WAR player. top prospects (guys on top 100 lists) become full time players about 25% of the time, so the value of a top prospect is about 3 WAR over 6 season. that’s half a win per year. so if Fielder were signed to his present level contract for 6 seasons, the team acquiring him would owe 2 top prospects. since he’s signed for 1/12th of that, the Brewers will get 1/12th of 2 top prospects, aka a bucket of balls.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Ah. I gotcha. Makes more sense now.
So you’re saying it wouldn’t require Hudson of Flowers. Cool
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 22, 2010 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions
"Decent #5"
I scoff at that notion, he has been the most consistent pitcher on our staff. He’s a hell of a #5 starter, give the man his dues!
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
He's performed just as well as I thought he would this year.
But what do you mean by most consistent?
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions
yes im a freddie fan
but he has not been more consistent than Danks. And why the hell do some people believe he’d want to be in a bullpen next year? This is it for Freddie. Career back on track, move on.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
That's why I asked him what he meant by consistent.
If you’re looking at quality starts on the season, a measure of consistency, he and Danks have the same amount. So no, he’s not the most consistent pitcher on the staff. All but a few of the more useless metrics will tell one that Danks is the better pitcher.
I don’t think he’d want to be in a bullpen next year, but I was pointing out that he would make a solid addition to the bullpen.
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
From Keith Law's "most MLB-ready"
2. Chris Sale, LHP, Florida Gulf Coast:
I think he could pitch in the majors inside of a year as a reliever, maybe even this fall, but that’s a fantasy, as he’s going to be drafted so high that he’ll be used as a starter.
http://twitter.com/FutureSox
http://FutureSox.com
by The Big Hurt on Jun 20, 2010 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Viciedo on the Weekly Rundown
Dunno if I’m da-man on this or not, but Brad Evans is up to his usual antics, making ridiculous forecasts on widely available, unproven players. This week it’s Viciedo:
Fearless Forecast (rest of season): 238 at-bats, .251 BA, 10 HR, 34 RBI, 27 R, 2 SB
Bold prediction here
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 20, 2010 11:14 PM CDT reply actions
I'm going to the Sox/Cubs game on Friday, and I think I'll be tailgating.
Anyone else planning on being there?
"I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production." - Ozzie Guillen
"I'd rather have Rios hit 50 home runs than steal 50 bases. I want to win." - Servant2LordBeckham
by Servant2LordBeckham on Jun 21, 2010 1:16 AM CDT reply actions
I'm alergic to Cubs games.
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
They are tough
I was offered tickets for one of the games at Wrigley and I passed. I’d rather watch from home than deal with all the meathead fans (from both sides, neither fan base behaves well during this series, so I’m not putting the blame on Cubs fans).
I’ll be going to the game Saturday though, bit more tolerable at the home park. If for no other reason, our seats are more comfortable and the food is better.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I to turned down free tickets to on of the Wrigley games,
but if offered tix to one of the Cell games Id prob accept as well. However, I would not go out of my way to get those tickets. I just can not stand the whole atmosphere of the matchup, it disgusts me. And your right its not JUST Cubs fans.
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
Come on. You can go to as many regular games as you want during the season.
This is an opportunity to yell “Fuck you Cubs fans!” when the captain goes yard off of Dumpster. You’ve gone soft. Have you forgotten about this little incident already?
"I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production." - Ozzie Guillen
"I'd rather have Rios hit 50 home runs than steal 50 bases. I want to win." - Servant2LordBeckham
by Servant2LordBeckham on Jun 21, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
i want to kick his ass
2010 STANLEY CUP CHAMPION CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Men are such douchebags and fucking IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by pierzynskirules on Jun 21, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
i can't say i'd have done the same. sometimes you have to descend into the crevasse, lemon.
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
by thatshortkid on Jun 21, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
i read that Saturdays Game will be the Cubs 20,000th game played eva
Glad that milestone is on our turf, but it might be a madhouse more so then a normal crosstown series.
Look I just want to pass my last Microsoft exam and sleep with white women.
by Tdogg on Mar 10, 2010 11:29 PM CST
I'm with MM on this one. Some can pull it off for a while, but eventually
they all think with their pussies.
by Chiburb on May 11, 2010 1:11 PM CDT
by Grinder Rule #42 on Jun 21, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Addition by subtraction
CWS 12-6 since Teabag went on the DL June 1. Correlation or causation? Discuss
For my $0.02, getting a butcher off the field at a key defensive position certainly improves your chances of winning when your offense is this weak. It’s no coincidence they’ve been able to go 8 straight games without an HR and still go 7-1.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
If you mean the defense has improved to help the pitching
okay. But the team has wOBA of .331 in June up from .318 in May and .312 in March. In other words they have been an avg offense since June 1st.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
doesn't hurt to get him out of the batters box either
I think he’d be perfect for Lillibridge’s spot on the roster when he comes off the DL
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions
That will be the real test huh?
What to do with Teabag upon return. Ideally someone like Omar should not be playing everyday, but unless we get a corner bat that provides more runs than subtracts what real option do you have? I guess the first option is to see whether Dayan can hit left handers.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
I'm sure it changes the pitching getting him out of there
I haven’t seen many of the games, but my guess would be is the pitching staff is coming inside a lot more aggressively against right-handed batters with him off the field. Pitching is going to improve if they’re not afraid of the ball going to the left side of the infield.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
there aren't a ton of big fastball guys on this team
the starters on this team go relatively soft inside with the cutter.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
seriously though
you can guess about what you’d expect the distribution between inside and outside should be if you know what the pitcher expects the effect is like. a pitcher is going to decide how to allot groundballs based on the quality of the infielder. so if the new set up looks like:
3B: +15
SS: +10
2B: +5
1B: -10
before it was more like:
3B: -10
SS: +10
2B: +5
1B: -10
The normal set up gets a SS 5 balls to field per game, 3B/2B 4, 1B 3. And since I don’t think there are any diminishing returns, i think it would be obvious that if a pitcher can control the direction of the batted ball that he’d want to direct grounders to one side of the infield than the other.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
can you aggregate that?
I don’t have the skillz, but I’d be very interested in seeing it.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
aggregate what?
the balls in play split? actually, i’m not sure where that data would be.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
i suppose if pitchers think they can control the L/R distribution
then you’d see that in their command. brooks would be useful.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
The coincidence is they are playing against NL teams
It’s not like Viciedo is a gold glove winner at third and we did fine yesterday. Vizquel has hit very well in this streak too (.875 ops over the last 14 days). Even if his glove was the same as Teahen’s, he’d still be an improvement right now.
Not only that, Teahen was struggling, but compared to some of the other guys on this team he wasn’t the biggest problem, he’s putting up better numbers than Beckham or Q, at a more difficult position to play defensively.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions
so then you obviously side with correlation
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
No I think there is some truth in what he is saying
minus the offensive part. Omar has been very good at third. You don’t think the left side of the defense has helped greatly with the pitching? There is a reason the difference between FIP and ERA was so large for so long.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Just like The Wire, it's all tied together
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that they haven’t hit a homer in 8 games. Their offensive approach has probably changed. If you can trust your defense and pitching you don’t feel the pressure to have to swing for the fences.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of defense
With the latest updates, my personal crusade Alexei is up to 6.3 UZR for the season in the SSS. The man has played some absolutely fantastic defense lately.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
The games I've seen he looks very comfortable out there,
not the least hesitant.
I would suspect his positioning has changed with Teahen out, he probably had to cheat toward to hole to cover him before. Has he been getting to more balls up the middle lately?
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Pierre has been above and beyond my expectations
hes flashing some leather too.
Dan Patrick- "Why is this affecting you?"
Jeremy Roenick- "Its the Chicago Blackhawks man."
alexei has been outstanding....
and as i mentioned in my pittsburgh recap- the guy worked his ass off during BP and also was goofing around turning trick DP’s with Vizquel. I think Vizquel has been a positive influence on the team and that it is NOT a coincidence the team has played better since he joined the lineup. He has done a hell of a job and I have eaten my crow for bashing the signing. I’d play him at third as much as they can and would DH Viciedo.
Kenwo4life=ratings
i concur
give the kid some straight up bat time first
Look I just want to pass my last Microsoft exam and sleep with white women.
by Tdogg on Mar 10, 2010 11:29 PM CST
I'm with MM on this one. Some can pull it off for a while, but eventually
they all think with their pussies.
by Chiburb on May 11, 2010 1:11 PM CDT
by Grinder Rule #42 on Jun 21, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes I very much do want HRs back
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
You go 7-1 without hitting a HR
you’ve got to be pretty much flawless in all other aspects of the game. You can’t afford to give away ANY outs.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
i'm pretty sure the cubs and pirates in particular
are teams where you can pretty easily afford to give away outs.
I think the defense has improved
But Alexei has played a lot better too, as has Q!, as have the pitchers, and anyone who else who got to play god awful NL teams.
My point is, it’s not Teahen being out, that has won us games. Vizquel has been great, but we’d probably be winning these games with any 3B, and probably even better off if it was Beckham who was out, instead of Teahen. We are winning because our pitching has improved and we’re playing shit ball clubs. Vizquel is just benefiting from the situation. If he had been out there when the team was playing like shit, I have no reason to believe he would have changed anything for us.
Just as I believe if Teahen was playing right now, we’d still be winning most of these games. Over the season, I just don’t think Vizquel over Teahen adds that many wins to the ballclub. I think people are just looking for reasons this will be sustainable other than the NL is terrible, and this one is a reach. If you wanted to focus on the pitchers not being terrible, I’d agree with that, or Carlos Quentin finally showing up. Omar Vizquel though, is no different than Andruw Jones earlier this season. He will not continue with this production.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
so Q! has regained both capitalization and exclamation?
This is not early panic, it’s continued disgust with a situation we didn’t like to begin with. - Grinder in Training
"helped greatly"
no. even if we assume that we had about the worst defender possible at 3B (say, -15 runs per 150) and now have the best (say, +15), the difference over this short period of time don’t matter much.
I agree. But when a team like the White Sox score so few runs, and play so many close games
1 run can mean all the difference. The swap of Teabag for Vizquel has helped us lately. I don’t think one can argue against that. Now, how much he’s helped… that’s certainly debatable. I don’t think we win all these games recently with Teabag instead of Omar.
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
There is also no data whatsoever to back up the notion that pitchers change their pitching philosophy based on defense or hitters change their approach based on confidence in defense. Those 2 things may be possible but there is no way that they are accounting for the present streak. Having watched the vast majority of the games before and after the current streak I haven’t noticed any difference in the pattern of pitching only a difference in the execution. Has Vizquel been significantly better than Teahen would have been. Well yeah of course. He’s hit surprisingly well and fielded predictably well. Maybe he’s been responsible for .5 wins over what teahen would have done (which is HUGE over that short period).
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
5 runs over that short period of time, if what you are proposing is possible
is definitely huge. Especially considering the closeness of the games we’ve played
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
5 runs in 12 games?
not so sure about that, bhoov. even if you’re including the other 3Bs in that and stretch it to the full 18 games, i’d call that pretty aggressive.
Yeah
I was erring on the high side just giving those who think he’s the cause of our present 10-1 streak the benefit of the doubt. The point was moreso that he’s been worth a maximum of .5 wins over Teahen and thus is only minimally responsible for the strreak. But yeah it’s really probably more like .2, .3 wins.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
Well this is one of those "statistically" unproveable things
but not in the vein of “he’s not clutch”. Fangraphs exist and we can blow that shit up. This is more subtle and like a cascade. Yes if we measure its .2 or .3 wins. But if we look at the calming effect at 3b does it influence other things? I think so. Larry and I have debated this in the past. I do believe there are parts of the psych that effect a whole team. Like for instance why did the White Sox crush or play well vs the central for years, even in years they sucked?
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
so are you then suggesting that we should add another .25 wins?
to make to the .5. which means that this “calming effect” is worth 4-5 wins over the course of the season? color me skeptical.
No Im not trying to
run this off like some long term occurence to be repeated. I believe these things are isolated but DO happen. Bhoov calls it coincidence. I call it confidence. Call it whatever you like.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
that's the point I was making on Quentin a while ago
What’s the difference between 2008 Carlos Quentin and 2010 Carlos Quentin? Is he physically that much different, or is it his confidence?
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
so is playing while having the thought of that pain
in the back of your mind when its not really there.
Look I just want to pass my last Microsoft exam and sleep with white women.
by Tdogg on Mar 10, 2010 11:29 PM CST
I'm with MM on this one. Some can pull it off for a while, but eventually
they all think with their pussies.
by Chiburb on May 11, 2010 1:11 PM CDT
by Grinder Rule #42 on Jun 21, 2010 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
coincidence?
small sample size? And yeah I don’t believe in “calming” effect any more than I believe in “chemistry”.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
i'll let people chalk up things to the "intangibles" without much argument
but the level at which you can do that certainly is not at this order of magnitude. i know it’s shocking, but you win more games when you have players actually play like major leaguers.
by larry on Jun 21, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
so its decided
Teahen DL is the causation…thought so
Look I just want to pass my last Microsoft exam and sleep with white women.
by Tdogg on Mar 10, 2010 11:29 PM CST
I'm with MM on this one. Some can pull it off for a while, but eventually
they all think with their pussies.
by Chiburb on May 11, 2010 1:11 PM CDT
by Grinder Rule #42 on Jun 21, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Stats guys rarely do
which is why I will never go all the way over. But yeah chemistry certainly does exist. Its not meant to suggest that it will overcome talent on any type of regular basis.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
okay. you're smarter than this.
of course you’re wrong. there are literally no “stats guys” out there who do not believe that chemistry exists. they simply believe that it is very difficult to quantify and, related to that first point, has such a small effect in the vast majority of situations that essentially ignoring it is appropriate in the vast majority of analysis.
"small effect"
The statistical modeling is just starting to get their arms around the importance of defense.
How important is a position like 3B? If I’m a pitcher and I know that any ball hit there is going to result in a baserunner, you don’t think that changes your approach? And if you’re a RHB and you know Buehrle or Danks is not going to come inside on you, that’s not going to make you more aggressive on outside pitches?
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions
it's not hard to provide evidence of what you're asserting.
pitch f/x. it exists. show me the evidence that their approach changed.
that's a project for Colin
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
uh huh.
in the time it’s taken you to write these posts, you could have done this. use brooksbaseball.net or something. otherwise, this looks like a bunch of bullshit to the rest of us.
leave it to larry
to take a civilized discussion and turn it into the usual snarky shit
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
you're the one who lives on this site
And obviously know exactly where the data resides. You like arguing for the sake of arguing, dredge up the evidence and prove me wrong. I never said my assertion was gospel.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 12:09 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
if you’re not willing to support your assertions, in the absence of evidence, you shouldn’t have any problem with me calling them bullshit. i don’t see any reason why i should do your work for you.
I laid it all out so even you could understand it
Now you need graphs and charts too?
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 12:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
you didn't lay out anything.
i’ve laid out what would be laying it all out. it’s called evidence. coming up with some theory without it isn’t laying it all out.
c'mon pete
arguments are typically regarded as dependent on evidence. similarly, your arguments are dependent on your evidence.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I wasn't proving gravity
I stated an opinion
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
pissy?
I was just getting down into the mud with you, right where you like playing.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
so you know you could justify yourself
but you don’t want to be taken too seriously.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
he's just mad
because I hijacked his thread.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
why couldn't it have anything to do with
what he said it did? your line of reasoning is bogus but you won’t check out the evidence, presumably to preserve your unique “fan’s perspective” on the game.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
what's bogus with the line of reasoning?
I’m a quarterback. I’ve got one wide receiver, who the coach insists upon playing, who drops everything I throw his way. My other receiver is dependable, who am I going to look for when I go back to pass?
I’m a pitcher with major league command. Do I want the ball going over to the sieve at 3B, or somewhere else?
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
Ah, you gave in.
Don’t give help if someone is not asking for it.
Man, when BP gets done with the cleanup, they need to send him down there. The amount of sand in his vagina could easily restore half the gulf.
by South Side Expat on Jun 8, 2010 1:17 AM EDT
you honestly believe that?
okay then Im corrected, but bhoov’s statement about not believing in chemistry I’ve read more than a few times. Are you saying that what they mean to say is your last sentence? Because I didnt get that impression.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
if you'd like to show me examples of "stats guys" who say chemsitry, intangibles, whatever do not exist
please do. i don’t know anyone of any repute who says that.
I believe we are both right, at different timetables.
It appears most of the articles are of this nature in my google search. Its a common theme that ties into your point about its hard too quantify, etc… But my point is his implication was that was a recent development in that author’s brain and not too long ago he didn’t believe in chemistry at all.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Well I also looked this up
And was not able to find a study demonstrating that “clubhouse chemistry” exists even in small amounts in baseball (and no a study about how clubs value chemistry does not count). If you have such a study I’d love a link to it. Instead people simply assert that “it’s too hard to study and the efffects are too small”. I personaly am agnostic about it. I don’t know if it exists since no one has designed a study to evaluate it. perhaps it does and it’s worth so little that it is unimportant. Or perhaps it doesn’t. But I would love to see such a study, so if it exists please point it out to me. This is one instance where I would love to be wrong because I find the subject matter fascinating.
Now I actually believe in certain intangibles because things like manager’s, luck, etc. are included in that.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
Well as I said
you certainly are not the only person that feels that way. I lean towards it does exist but agree its very difficult to “plan” for it and certainly would like talented players first and foremost. As to its importance? That’s where I leave the reservation. I think chemistry sometimes has allowed some straight goofy shit to happen in sports.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
i find it rather unlikely
that the studies about “worker happiness” and shit like that from other lines of work do not similarly apply to sports.
that was my point exactly
Do I need to hang out with my coworkers after hours in order to have a good work environment? No.
But do I need to respect their ability to do their job properly in order to create a good work environment? And will their inability to do their job properly negatively impact my job performance? I think it certainly may.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
it certainly does mine
Look I just want to pass my last Microsoft exam and sleep with white women.
by Tdogg on Mar 10, 2010 11:29 PM CST
I'm with MM on this one. Some can pull it off for a while, but eventually
they all think with their pussies.
by Chiburb on May 11, 2010 1:11 PM CDT
by Grinder Rule #42 on Jun 21, 2010 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
it does apply to baseball, maybe it doesn’t. I don’t know. Baseball is different enough from the workplace that I could see those studies not applying. For example, you can have “worker happiness” in baseball with a bunch of talented pricks on the team if that team wins.
Baseball is even different from other sports in that it is much more individualistic. You are not dependent on your teammates to “pass” you the ball or puck. You will get a chance to hit the ball a similar number of times as long as the manager puts you in. Of course you are dependent on your teamates for certain things but much less so than in other team sports.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
every workplace is different. some jobs are more individualistic.
i think enough studies have been done about just about every job in the world to illustrate that worker happiness and similar factors affect productivity. and i think i’m on quite safe ground to say that baseball isn’t some magical exception to that.
Ok well
then why hasn’t the study been done? If it’s that easy to prove in all these other lines of work why isn’t it easy to prove in baseball? If anything one would think it would be easier to study with such hard outcomes in basbeball. To take a study on productivity in lawyers and assume that it applies to physicians or baseball players does not convince me. However, it should be enough to cause one to study baseball players similarly.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
i'd think the answer to that is fairly obvious.
you’ve got a rather small population to deal with to start. and one usually needs the cooperation of the employer to do such a study. perhaps studies have been done by individual teams. perhaps one could even aggregate these studies in some way. but why would any team release this or even necessarily cooperate in a study. this isn’t something where you or i can randomly call people, find out there profession and ask them questions.
point taken
However, applying the results of much different occupations to basbeball is still a stretch I think. There have been many instances in all scientific fields where results in certain populations are not applicable to other populations. This doesn’t require “magical exceptions”, it actually happens quite often.
Just out of curiousity how many wins do you think “chemistry” is potentially worth?
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
not many.
i’m straining to think of a single occupation where “worker happiness” or something similar did not affect productivity. so, yes, baseball experiencing no effect would be a magical exception.
porn?
or how about highway construction crews?
those guys are never productive.
Cashing checks and having sex.
Well there is
significant data that this is not a cause and effect situation. It may be that people that tend to be happy are more productive. Thus it is an intrinsic quality and attempting to make people happy through interventions (for example getting rid of players with “bad chemistry”) is fruitless. Now of course there are others that disagree with this author, but there is clearly some doubt as to whether increasing worker happiness increases productivity. Given this data I think it is certainly possible that clubhouse chemistry does not affect wins and losses. Again I would say we don’t know.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
based on that, getting the proverbial "good clubhouse guy" would be a positive
because they’ll be more productive. i’m not sure what it is we’re talking about here anymore. let’s stop now.
i think what you'd look for in a chemistry study
is how the team responds to sucking and how it responds to winning. i’d look for streak effects that go beyond the collective true talent of the team (as decided by ZiPS or whatever).
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
I think it all illustrates what a fine line it is between winning and losing
If you try to statisically quantify what the difference is with Teahen in and out of the lineup, you probably won’t come up with much. But look at the way KW builds his clubs each year. He obviously knows what the numbers say, but he and OG disregard them a lot of time to try to come up with the elusive “right chemistry”.
I’ve played team sports, and if you have a serious weakness at a position it definitely impacts you down the line. They made a big mistake thinking Teahen could adequately field that position. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that getting him out of there improved the overall level of play. Especially when his replacement plays well, that’s a big lift. Baseball at that level is a mental grind.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
ummm okay
get out of my brain.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
hah! I was more eloquent
I’m feeling eloquent after the last episode of Treme. I take back some of the bad things I was saying about that show.
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Teahen wasn't a serious weakness on this team though
Considering the lack of production from Beckham, we’d be better off if Vizquel had been put in at 2b. The pitching staff was garbage, and our lineup was even worse, and we were playing better competition. Sure, maybe we win one or two less games, but we might win the game against the Cubs if it’s Teahen in there instead of Beckham. It’s not like we have one blackhole on this team that Vizquel can solve magically. We have no DH, no 2B, and until this week, no RF.
Teahen leaving had nothing (or almost nothing) to do with it.
Before we played the NL we were under .500 with Teahen out of the lineup.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
that's the beauty of baseball ain't it?
No animals were harmed during the making of this comment.
by ChicagoPete on Jun 21, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
"Teahen wasn't a serious weakness on this team though"
Huh? Let’s not get crazy. He wasn’t anywhere near the only problem but he is a serious weakness. To your larger point, yes there are a number of reasons for the turn around. Omar is not the “new” savior.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
It's relative
If you suck and the rest of the team sucks, you aren’t really bringing the team down. If you are mediocre and people are even worse than you, then I find it hard to call you the weakness of the team.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
he actually had a good bat for a month.
sss or what have you but we werent murdering him on his defense when his OPS was fluctuating in the .800-.900 range for those glorious 2 weeks.
the teams level of calm or chemistry or whatever wull never be properly quantified either. Say you figure it out for the Sox. That minute variable will be completely different for all 29 other clubs, and is never a constant- fluctuating wildly. There just is no formula for it. You can identify it as a factor, but you’ll never get a solution to the equation.
Dan Patrick- "Why is this affecting you?"
Jeremy Roenick- "Its the Chicago Blackhawks man."
i need some caffeine
that sentence construction is laughable.
Dan Patrick- "Why is this affecting you?"
Jeremy Roenick- "Its the Chicago Blackhawks man."
i think this all just illustrates
the usual fan’s mentality. things can’t happen for no reason, so we ascribe reasons on the basis of little evidence and the fact that we were on a team when we were 12.
it’s okay to throw your hands up and say, “i don’t know.”
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Okay you are of course correct
Strike helped greatly. But it think he’s definitely been worth a real life win.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
And I get its not a stat win saber heads so save it.
and I’m not talking about some law of averages or million simulations. Stick Teahan’s ass at 3rd base for that 9 game road trip. They don’t go 8-1.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Actually I disagree
with this as well. Maybe they lose the 1-0 washington game where vizquel went 2 for 4 but maybe they win the 1-0 game where Nix went 0-3 with an errror if Teahen starts. Or maybe they go 7-2 and then Omar starts to suck offensively over the next week and we gain a game there.
Where I'm going, you can't follow. What I've got to do, you can't be any part of.
they don't go 8-1 because .500ish talent teams don't go
8-1 with much frequency.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Starting pitching has been great in June
and I would say Jenks and Putz are a bigger part of the reason for winning close games lately. Jenks has been very solid.
indeed
This is like having Marshall Faulk on your fantasy football team in 2000 and screwing up the rest of your draft to finish 7th.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Jun 21, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I am absolutely pro omar here.
i don’t care if its chemistry, coincidence or whatever… the SOX are BETTER with Vizquel in the lineup than they are with Teahen. A lot of it has to do with defense. Teahen was absolutely horrible there and vizquel is good. he brings a bit of swagger to the team. He does things well that I didn’t believe he could still do. Unless we acquire someone as good as him he should stay at third long after teahen comes back from injury. However, this likely will not happen as playing a 42 year old “on field coach” over someone you just gave 15 mil to is a huge blemish on a GM’s record.
Kenwo4life=ratings
the guy who should be worried about his playing time when teahen comes back
should not omar. it should be beckham.
this
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Then you agree Teahen isn't the problem.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Teabag is a problem as a starting third baseman
I never said he shouldn’t wear a major league uniform. He’s a good utility man and can play the outfield.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
I wanted Beckham sent down
weeks ago.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
i could see that....
but id still go with beckham. i have more confidence in him turning it around than i do in teahen. maybe thats just because i love his hair….. but id leave beckham alone.
Kenwo4life=ratings
We all love the hair KenWo
You can’t let it blind you from the awfulness, he hasn’t produced, at least Teahen was mediocre. I’m sure you went through this with Ric Flair, you can get past this too.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
seems pretty obvious to me that teahen has been better than beckham
and let me know when you see any indication that beckham plans to turn things around. if you’re serious about contending, there’s a point where wishcasting must end.
should we have stopped seeing BA as a top prospect after 2006?
would it have mattered if he’d gone back to Charlotte?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
He should have been in Charlotte, yeah
And then called up in September. He was essentially replacement level, a little worse, actually, and given almost a full season of PA’s. He wasn’t the only reason they didn’t make the post-season, but as long as he struggled, and as long as Ozzie stuck with him, they should’ve put someone else in there. Traded for them, claimed them, called up someone else, I dunno. Between him, Uribe, Pods, and Mackowiak… How Ozzie and Kenny stuck with all of them baffles me. Go back and look at their stats that year. If they have even average level years at their position that team wins close to 100 games. A lot to ask? Sure. Still. The Sox finished 5 games back that year, so replacing Anderson with an average player doesn’t make up that difference. Still, it makes things a lot more interesting.
I’m straying from my point. I was just saying that sticking with a struggling player(s) while trying to contend will keep you out of the playoffs. We have only to look as recently as 2006 to see an example of that.
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 22, 2010 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
my point was really more like
how for real are we supposed to take this slump? is beckham the next BA?
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
yikes
apples and oranges to an extent, but Beckham this year makes BA’s batting lines look better than they seemed at the time.
259 SLG from the doubles machine? … feeling a little peaked…got to sit down…
by EddyStanky'sGhost on Jun 22, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm kicking out kotsay
not the face of the franchise.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Would you rather the face of the franchise sit on the bench though?
I think Kotsay can go either way, but isn’t it better to get Beckham AB’s on a daily basis in AAA over using him as a utility man?
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
it all depends on knowing the guy and what he'll respond best to.
so: grains of salt, etc. but judging from Beckham’s expressed confidence, i’d say let him play.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Q's been better than Beckham for a while
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
But I still think I’d take Q’s bat over Beckham’s glove, when we can put Vizquel at second base.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't you mean Teabag?
If Omar is at 2nd and Teabag is at 3rd I’d throw up.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
lol
maybe I didnt make myself clear? I DO NOT WANT THAT GUY AT 3RD BASE!
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Well Omar's bat over a season
Or this version of Beckham’s scare me more than Teahen’s fielding.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Grind we are NOT in synch here. Let me help
“Drove to the pad and hit the showers
Didn’t even get no static from the cowards
Cause just yesterday them fools tried to blast me
Saw the police and they rolled right past me”
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Ha.. no Ak's were used yet
So things are still looking good.
But I don’t think we’ll get in synch, just have to agree to disagree on this one.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Prediction: Sale will be here for the Twins series Aug. 10 (and beyond).
Assuming all goes well at W-S and Charlotte. Would be nice to see him versus the M&M boys.
I will not let readers of this site turn it into a festival of rudeness-Al Yellon (at his Cub fans).
But Mauer hits lefties pretty well, too. Is that what you were implying?
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
He hit's lefties well
But he hits righties historically well. There’s a difference.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
At least this year, there's a pretty big split.
But my point was more like “I’ll be excited to see him face Mauer and Morneau as opposed to a righty or Williams”.
I will not let readers of this site turn it into a festival of rudeness-Al Yellon (at his Cub fans).
Really?
I’d be excited too, but also worried his psyche would implode. I mean, coming up to the bigs to face two recent MVP winners a few months after being drafted? He’d need big, hairy, steel balls.
by Shoeless In SC on Jun 21, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
If his psyche explodes getting rocked by a potential hall of famer
We’re in trouble. I’d rather Joe Mauer bash his head in than Nick Punto. Now that kind of shame I could understand ruining your career.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
This might not mean much If Cliff Lee is there also....
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Ahhhhhhhhhh!
Walked by a fellow Sox fan at work.
“Hey man stay on strike”
“I hear you man,” I said
“We are back to small ball baby like 05.”
Just stab me in the eye right now.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
At least you work with Sox fans
It could be worse.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
haha that is great
This is not early panic, it’s continued disgust with a situation we didn’t like to begin with. - Grinder in Training
People keep saying this
maybe they misundestood me. I haven’t watched one live White Sox game since that Detroit lost. Now if you want me to abandon that…. just say the word…..
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
I am obviouly s l o w today!
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
I still believe you.
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
This just in
“Winning is great. Losing sucks.” I hate off days, especially in the middle of winning streaks.
Buggin' Out: "Yo, Sal, we're gonna boycott your fat pasta ass."
Sal: "You're gonna boycott me? You haven't got the *balls* to boycott me. Here, here's your boycott, up your ass, you've got a boycott."
Yep.
This.. we are in sync.
This.. we are in sync.For the first time in a while, I’m actually looking forward to watching a Sox game and we have a day off.
by Grinder in Training on Jun 21, 2010 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
which one came out after the band broke up?
oh yeah.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
All of them?
"They're a bunch of choir boys that I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole with." - Sun-Times reporter Joe Cowley on the lack of toughness of the 2010 White Sox
there's only one
with an Oh Face
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
Pierre= Hayes
Freddy= Harris
Viciedo= Cerano
Santos= Rickey Vaughn
Konerko= Jake Taylor
Rios= Dorn (this one is shaky but they were both considered high price busts at one time)
if only we had lou brown instead of that jagwad ozzie.
Kenwo4life=ratings
i would definitely be down with referring to dayan
as Pedro, Cerrano, or some combination of references thereto.
I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production.
"Here ya go. One whole chicken."
"I'd rather have Rios steal 50 bases than hit 50 home runs. I want production." - Ozzie Guillen
"I'd rather have Rios hit 50 home runs than steal 50 bases. I want to win." - Servant2LordBeckham
by Servant2LordBeckham on Jun 21, 2010 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Still shitty, yes.
But they’ll be just good enough to keep us interested…and attend games…and buy their merchandise…and watch the games on TV.
"They're a bunch of choir boys that I wouldn't want to be in a foxhole with." - Sun-Times reporter Joe Cowley on the lack of toughness of the 2010 White Sox
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