Mark Kotsay Saves Bobby Jenks, Both Still On Hot Seat
by The Cheat on Aug 5, 2010 5:31 PM CDT
in White Sox Game Recaps
Email
PrintThere's no player on the White Sox who is so universally viewed as expendable as Mark Kotsay. He entered the day with a season line of .215/.298/.338 almost exclusively from the DH and 1B positions. He is one of the worst near-everyday players in all of baseball.
And yet there was Kotsay almost singlehandedly powering the Sox to victory. It's games like this that cause a rift between the common fan an sabermetrics.
What do you mean Kotsay is worth negative wins? Remember that game in Detroit that he won almost all by himself?
Thankfully, Win Probability Added (WPA) picks up those wild swings that other metrics might classify as noise. So while Kotsay is listed as a full win below replacement, his WPA total clocks in at a more average but still useless from the DH spot -.08 (not quite sure if that includes today's game)
In the same vein, Bobby Jenks, who once again blew what should have been an easy save opportunity, is similarly as valuable with a WPA -.12 (again today's disaster may not be included). No matter what, a negative WPA from your closer is simply unacceptable. Since more high leverage work occurs at the end of the game, and an average closer converts on 85% of his save opportunities, there is more of an opportunity to wrack up big WPA numbers from the closers spot. Indeed, Jenks managed a WPA near 3.5, where half a point is considered a full win, in 2008 while only accumulating 1.3 WAR. A negative WPA simply shows what all Sox fans are feeling, Jenks is doing more harm than good at the end of games and his time as the closer should be up.
323 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
yeah sorry,
I just promoted and subsequently demoted yours.
its time for the come to Jesus moment and admit Kotsay's time has long passed. -tdogg
thats 3 high quality rr posts in a row.
what is going on here?
its time for the come to Jesus moment and admit Kotsay's time has long passed. -tdogg
this
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
by U-God on Aug 5, 2010 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Cow pies?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 7:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
you know it!
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
,
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
he doesnt eat cookies anymore :(
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
by oneloyaldawg on Aug 5, 2010 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I dont know that he ever ate pussy
its time for the come to Jesus moment and admit Kotsay's time has long passed. -tdogg
rhythm!
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 6, 2010 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Been there, for certain
American Apparel I mean ;)
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
everything from south africe is negated forever since they are the creators of this:
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
by oneloyaldawg on Aug 7, 2010 12:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Congrats on your gig, BTW.
Also, I had lunch with a guy from Atlanta today. Saw my WS stuff (fantasy camp pic, hat, etc.) in the office and started talking about your boy Becks. Knows his Dad. Called Becks a “stud”. You guys sure love your Becks in GA.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
whats not to love?
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
by oneloyaldawg on Aug 5, 2010 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions
the hair?
Time to call in the Q!avalry.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions
maybe it goes to show that baseball is an f-ing game that cant be quantified into some fucked up stats or metric with 70 criteria
kotsay has been horseshit but if he was playing to his career averages or close we’d be fine
If he were playing anywhere near his career averages it would be 2005.
Hasn’t done shit since.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 5:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Who cares
what his average was last year for the Sox. What is he doing this year? Let alone the fact he only had 113 ABs.
Kotsay is garbage.
the reply was he hasnt done anything since 2005 to which isnt true
he hasnt been good this year but he won us the game and he has been the victim of some bad luck…shouldnt be full time DH but still
you defend Kotsay, then say he shouldn't be a full time DH, then end your statement with "but still"
Do you realize that you don’t even have a point here? Everyone else does.
i cant completely defend kotsay being mostly a full time DH
but if he was playing as well as he did last year for us or close to his career averages we would be fine with him playing as much as he is…thats my point…his babip is .218….when that happens to anyone else its bad luck and with kotsay it means he sucks…
he would be a replacement level player if he played like he did last year
he was worth 0 WAR for us in his 127 PA. i don’t think we’d be ok with that from our DH spot. i sure as hell wouldn’t.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
He already has exceeded his AB's from last year.
He is being utilized incorrectly, and it magnifies his weaknesses. His being generally bad at baseball looks even worse as an almost full-time starter.
Does “nd” signify “Notre Dame”?
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
north dakota, if i remember right
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Good.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
haha yeah thats right but ive never said that so im not sure how you remember
and its not like he’s my favorite player all im saying is that we are in first place right now and if he was batting close to his career line of .278/.335/.410 that we would perhaps be farther in first place…i was in favor of luke scott replacing him or even teahen in rf and Q as a DH when teahen is back, but since neither one of those are happening i hope that kotsay plays better the rest of the season
Mark Kotsay is ageless.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
just think where we'd be if andruw jones was batting close to his career line!
shoot, what’s willie mays up to? have you seen that fucker’s career line?
by larry on Aug 5, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
pods can't possibly have another year like 2009
I photoshopped a boner on the security guard but it's too dark to see --- billyok
"Baseball is a game that cannot be quantified into some fucked up stats"
“If he was playing to his career averages we’d be fine.”
……..
………………
………………………….
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions
thats not what I meant
go ahead and calculate kotsay’s WAR for me real quick…show your work I want to check it out…he is playing poorly and we are in first place and 16 games over .500 arent we?
i love the attitude that says, yeah, there's some useless shit on the roster
but, we’re winning. so don’t get rid of that useless shit.
by larry on Aug 5, 2010 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
didnt see any calculations in there but if you want to read above
“i was in favor of luke scott replacing him or even teahen in rf and Q as a DH when teahen is back, but since neither one of those are happening i hope that kotsay plays better the rest of the season”
his WAR was high in the past
because he was a centerfielder. he isn’t anymore. he doesn’t hit like he used to anymore. he is not good anymore
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
was that a reply fail?
because you didnt comment on anything i said
no
it is in response to your calculations shit. what he has done in the past isn’t important anymore.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
ok this is 2 different conversations
1) WAR – I understand what it is and I think that you, larry, cheat, and a few others probably really understand it, but it sometimes gets thrown around like its the only thing that makes someone good or bad at baseball. Lets use Kotsay as an example. Earlier “he was worth 0 WAR over 137 plate apperances last year.” So was his defense calculated in RF or 1B? What about DH? What stats were included in his batting? There is so many variables in baseball that it is impossible to project everything. That is all.
2) I dont like Mark Kotsay. I would like to see him play as well as he did today but I realize thats not at all likely so hopefully Teahen come back and play well in RF so Q can DH most of the time.
it's not impossible to project most of what's relevant
his defense at best is not center field quality. so there’s no way he’s going to be valuable.
Fireworks: Bang?
it includes all of those
it isn’t a projection like CHONE or ZiPS. and while it isn’t the be all end all of measurements, it is really fucking useful. if a player can’t get above 0 WAR though, they have ceased to be worth shit.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
i understand and if any of us 3 made the line up today he wouldnt have been in it
and we probably would have lost…
no
because kotsay having those two hits was not a predetermined outcome. is it nice that he did that? yes, very. we don’t know what would have happened if someone else was in his place, that is true. but one would expect the better team to have the better odds of winning the game. we are the better team.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
ok give me some money.
im going to vegas to bet on all the better teams
i don't think you understand how vegas makes their odds
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
yeah that was poor
and we are the better team but your example is oversimplified
not really
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
ok. i just see us losing today if kotsay didnt hit a hr and a triple when and where he did
but i have realized that i can only redeem myself if i kill mark kotsay
i eat all the deer, antelope, and pheasants i kill....
but not ducks or geese except sometimes in the form of jerky as they are typically too tough otherwise…what seasonings would you like on your kotsay jerky?
i would love
to walk into your office for consultation and see a taxidermy’d kotsaydh
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 6, 2010 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Feed, ballast, bait, minesweeper,
he’s practically a Renaissance man.
by The Actual El Guapo on Aug 5, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
right. today.
but what about all the other games we’ve played where he goes 0fer and secretly gives the opposition our signs?
Fireworks: Bang?
far too many
he also uses his hot wife to distract our own players…this is why andrew is always smiling…
I'm coming late to this discussion,
I don’t have a good grasp of all these new sabermetric measures, but I think the point is that Kotsay’s day today is like the broken clock. It’s right twice a day, but boy I’d hate to rely on it all day long. Or it’s like saying because the Northeast gets a huge snowstorm that global warming doesn’t exist. Kotsay is a major league ballplayer with past success, and he will get a bigh hit, occasionally. WAR and the other stats, however, that his negatives far outweigh those occasional positves and tell us that without him the Sox greatly increase their odds of winning.
thank you
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Sure thing . . .
and thanks for the Wire references in the Baltimore preview. I hope to get up there for the game on Sunday.
there we go!
i dont disagree with you guys i guess you just look at it differently then i do
boy everyone loves bolding their argument
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
Thanks Al.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions
not sure why it bolded everything else
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Well... Until today Jenks wasn't even on the AL Blown Saves leaderboard
Which had 23 guys on it with 3-5 blown. Today’s puts him on it, but still behind Papelbon, League, and others.
The only real damage was in making Santos unavailable for a day or 2 in Baltimore. Yes, he’s a key pitcher, but in reality Ozzie only used 1 more pitcher than he’d planned on.
You guys can bitch and moan all you want, but shit happens, and the Sox won anyway.
Don’t get me wrong, it was maddening at the time for sure. But I’m not getting the tar and feathers attitudes.
Did I mention that the Sox won?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 5:45 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
he blew that one game so swiftly, so spectacularly that he was removed without officially blowing it
leaving Santos the inherited blow save mess
Twitter: @SouthSideCheat
SouthSideSox on Facebook
MLB box score says BS, 3.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 6:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
technicality.
when the closer comes in for the 9th in a save situation and gets the loss, its ok to count it as a blown save.
And I don't think Al would approve of your piss-poor attitude since your return, young man.
Go to your basement and stay there until you can speak with a civil tongue.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 6:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i agree. jenks can drive me crazy but what the hell we still won
he blew 2 saves and everyone here wanted him dead and he pissed me off too as my buddy, a twins fan, was watching the game with me making fun of me…but then he closes out 2 games and everyone is saying wow he has his velocity and he’s pissed off he’s awesome again…then he fucks up today and everyone wants to kill him again
Jenks...
every time he enters a game I cringe. I don’t care how many “official” blown saves he has. No closer should have an ERA nearing 5, and a WHIP of 1.5. He needs to find a new home soon.
NO WAY should he be resigned and given a fat raise next year. Adios Bobby.
And did you hear the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup?
by TrickyDickAllen on Aug 5, 2010 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions
recently he has often looked poor
and his results have too often been extremely poor. how many more times do you want to see this “shit happen”?
hey swisher...........you know.
3 in a month or so?
SSS as they say. Finished with 6 last year, so better than then.
I say shit happens, you say he’s done as a closer.
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the Sox win this year without him.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 5:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i did not say he's done.
i asked how many more times you need to see him do badly before you think something should be done. i don’t know the answer myself but i’m guessing i think it should be closer to happening than do you.
hey swisher...........you know.
You're right. I was putting Cheat's words in your mouth.
Jenks is doing more harm than good at the end of games and his time as the closer should be up.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
Precisely this, as maddening as his bed-shitting talents can be.
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
No one is saying Jenks should never close again in life
But this insistence that he pitches the ninth whenever to preserve some order is goofy. Thornton and Putz are capable of closing a game in situations.
"it’s over, tdogg.
no. it’s not unlike me. when i make an unqualified statement, it means i’m sure i’m right" Larry
*Thornton, Putz, and Santos
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
Cheat:
Jenks is doing more harm than good at the end of games and his time as the closer should be up.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 7:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
designated closer
yes
"it’s over, tdogg.
no. it’s not unlike me. when i make an unqualified statement, it means i’m sure i’m right" Larry
right. if there was a committee or whatever that game probably would have played out exactly the same way.
putz and thornton when the lead is 1, jenks when the lead is 3.
Liney when the lead is 9.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
yeah basically
i still don’t get the Jenks bitching more generally. it’s too bad i don’t sell Jenks futures.
Fireworks: Bang?
this is horseshit
Jenks is causing problems at the end of games. Throwing out a blown save stat is useless. Do you know how hard it is to give up 3 run leads in the ninth? Jenks did it TWICE in less than a month.
"it’s over, tdogg.
no. it’s not unlike me. when i make an unqualified statement, it means i’m sure i’m right" Larry
Shit happens. Glad you enjoyed the win!
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 7:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Talk on the score today was on his day/night splitz...
Watching his career, without checking stats… it seems that he throws too many sliders now. (which is his worst pitch) and not enough curves. But i am just being observant and lazy..
It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
The picture shows Kotsay watching his game-winning triple
Shouldn’t he be running?
by oahu420 on Aug 5, 2010 5:48 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Mobile rec
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 5:50 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
He couldn't believe that shit either.
"We can't do it easy. But we may as well do it high." -The Cheat
by South Side Expat on Aug 5, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions
He saw God.
If Justice was served, he’d have then had a stroke and gone to Heaven like Swayze in “Ghost”, his Mission fulfilled. And all Sox fans would tearfully say “ditto”.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
by winningugly on Aug 5, 2010 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
I recommend this for a recommendation
Theain is the guy I Just can’t stand! pierre is almost as bad,he dose get on base more. If Quntin gets any worse trade him. WE NEED HELP!
If greenies were WAR
I’d be AJ.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
by winningugly on Aug 5, 2010 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
.
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 6, 2010 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
.400 OBP since the day Teahen got injured.
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
hell yea, Omar's approach at the plate is awesome to watch, he really knows how to work a pitcher and foul pitches off that are pitchers pitches
and his work in the field speaks for itself, not the greatest range or arm anymore but as solid as it gets with the glovework.
i think he has probably helped ramirez reach his potential as well
will he be back next year? i cant imagine he could play that well over an entire year again
i would gladly take him back as a reserve
he can help ramirez, switch hit off the bench, and play 2nd, ss, or 3rd
Assuming he'd want to play
Why would he take a minor-league deal after receiving major-league deals the past two seasons, when he was far worse offensively?
EVERYBODY PICK US FOR 3RD OR 4TH SO I DINK WE DOIN POOTY GOO
Sox Machine
And I base this on absolutely nothing.
It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.
he's having a really good year...
the sox gave him a chance to keep playing and number 11 and he seems to have a good relationship with ozzie
I cannot understand
why anybody would be upset with Vizquel on our bench next year, provided he’s as cheap as he was this year. This is the one move KW got over on us this year.
by Gentleman Jim on Aug 5, 2010 6:09 PM CDT up reply actions
You people kill me.
Paulie should take $10MM total over 2 years and Omar should retire. You guys are fucking nuts. How many Jim Browns or Barry Sanders’ are there in any pro sports league – those that quit at the top, or at least in a strong ascension? Paulie is still not old, and Omar should play as long as he is used effectively and feels useful/healthy.
Get used to old folks not going quietly – same trend in every other career. Why quit when you are productive, smarter than the kids who would replace you (think “cagey” or “wily”), get paid a great wage, and are feeling useful and productive? Oh, and it’s FUN.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
your little old people advocacy kick is cute.
especially referring to guys half your age.
OT: old guy at my job, research phd type position where you’re golden as long as you write a paper once a year, kicked to the curb. SUCK IT, OPOSES.
LOL.
You’ll be paying his Social Security soon. And he’ll be playing golf and sleeping with your women while you are working.
EAT IT!
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
What kind of research are you engaged in?
And in which field do you hold a PhD?
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
I is a non phd. I write software in the realm of high perf computing
which the physicists and biologists utilize to save the world. I’m pretty fantastic, wouldn’t you say?
dime a dozen.
"We can't do it easy. But we may as well do it high." -The Cheat
by South Side Expat on Aug 6, 2010 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
You keep thinking that
you are important, no really, you are! ;)
High performance computing, good stuff.
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
dont be fooled
trooper put a spoiler on his apple IIgs and thinks its high performance.
that one funny thing that guy said yesterday
But what of the teachings of The Children of the Corn?
by The Actual El Guapo on Aug 5, 2010 8:45 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
that movie made me laugh so loud
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
You're the OPOSiest!
Time to call in the Q!avalry.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
He does not belong in the shit taco.
Time to call in the Q!avalry.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
And that is huge from the 2-hole where he usually is
Month of July: .438 OBP
Last 28 days: .493 OBP (!!!!!!!!!)
by Yinka Double Dare on Aug 5, 2010 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Think Dorian Gray.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
Does anyone forsee Teahen's return as a harbinger of doom?
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Sack up
or go root for the Cubs. Eat your own cooking.
(I’ll let you know my Indian lunch experience tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions.)
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
Keep the bathroom stocked.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Final comment: I'd be more concerned about how Rios looked in this series than Jenks.
His HR aside, he sucked at the plate. So many opportunities wasted, which contribute to magnifying Jenks/Kotsay.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 6:06 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
his hands are higher and bat is noisier in the load phase...
noted.
Twitter: @SouthSideCheat
SouthSideSox on Facebook
hawk correctly pointed out that he was changing even between abs today.
his final ab with the deep fly, he had them back down and looked a bit quieter.
Great observation.
He is reverting to August, 2009. Oh, Lord…
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
I was told not to worry!
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions
ugh, reply fail
that was s’posed to be one up to ndsoxfan
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
too much baileys out of a shoe
its time for the come to Jesus moment and admit Kotsay's time has long passed. -tdogg
no
i saw his downstairs mixup, threw me for a loop
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
What about the boattimes??
Time to call in the Q!avalry.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions
solid stat work there, and explaination too. another look at both players added value as a trend over the past few years
what we can learn: bobby was good and is rapidly becoming bad. kotsay wasnt really ever good. on that note, i say we keep kotsay. we have no idea how far down jenks trend is going to go before he levels off(if he ever does)
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
it's not exactly fair to say kotsay was never good
he used to be pretty damn good at the start of the decade, throwing two 3.7 WAR seasons, a 4.1, 4.3, and a 5.2. he just hasn’t been good since 2004.
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
almost like teahen (not good since 06)
but unlike kotsay, he never achieved those levels.
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 5, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
AL wOBA trailers (min. 250 PA)...sigh:
Name wOBA
Cesar Izturis 0.26
Jose Lopez 0.266
A.J. Pierzynski 0.27
Justin Smoak 0.278
Mark Kotsay 0.282
Jason Kendall 0.286
Casey Kotchman 0.286
Adam Lind 0.288
Milton Bradley 0.289
Julio Borbon 0.289
Gordon Beckham 0.291
Yuniesky Betan. 0.291
Nick Punto 0.292
Jason Bartlett 0.293
Mark Ellis 0.294
Miguel Tejada 0.296
Aaron Hill 0.298
Chone Figgins 0.302
Mike Aviles 0.302
Trevor Crowe 0.303
Juan Pierre 0.304
i was thinking
how good are people at randomly generating numbers? i’ve heard not very. supposedly there are guessers and see-ball-hit-ball types. for at least the former, you need to be random if they’re any good. unless there’s a pitch the batter definitely can’t hit, you need to be unpredictable. so maybe AJ is good at being random.
Fireworks: Bang?
if aj picked a number between 1 and 10
it would take you 9 guesses to get it right.
every. time.
by Trooper on Aug 5, 2010 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
We have 4 on that list, but the Mariners have 5.
By the immutable laws of mathematics, I therefore declare that our sucky-ass hitters are better than Seattle’s sucky-ass hitters.
by The Actual El Guapo on Aug 5, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Smoak! Sucks!
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
So, more bitching for Ozzieball=1st place
Hailed mastermind Jack Z’s cunning moves=100 loss season in Seattle and historically pathetic offense.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
HOWS THAT OFFSEASON PLAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
Theain is the guy I Just can’t stand! pierre is almost as bad,he dose get on base more. If Quntin gets any worse trade him. WE NEED HELP!
by 67WMAQ on Aug 5, 2010 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
you dont understand...
1st place..62-46…wins…these things are not important..concentrate on WAR WPA CHONE UZR and wOBA…these are whats really important in baseball
"the man in you can trust...(shows clip of hr given up by jenks)...about as far as you can throw him" -espn announcer-
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
You shouldn't be throwing anyone with your bad back.
It’s not robbing Peter to pay Paul — it’s bludgeoning Peter to death, and then realizing on the way back that you forgot to grab his wallet.
Did anyone mention the Sox are a season high 16 wins over .500?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 6:58 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
im happy as hell
but its time to use roster correctly. There is little room for error.
"it’s over, tdogg.
no. it’s not unlike me. when i make an unqualified statement, it means i’m sure i’m right" Larry
Couldn't agree more.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 7:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can always agree more.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
i tell ya, feisty, ever since they gave playoff spots for wins over .500 rather than most wins in the division this game has gotten so much better.
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
by thatshortkid on Aug 5, 2010 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or to the team with fewest losses? That's how I look at it.
Wins can be made up, losses can’t. So by that measure the Sox are 2 up on the Twins!
See how easy it can be?
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 7:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But I flunked math freshman year of high school.
"I became an optimist when I discovered that I wasn't going to win any more games by being anything else."
Earl Weaver
by Chiburb on Aug 5, 2010 7:31 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
i'm sure boston will console themselves in october with their sparkling over .500 record when they're watching the playoffs on tv.
These events have me frightened and on the verge of evacuating my bowels.
no, but
you did mention that they won earlier
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 5, 2010 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
cheat
im confused (surprise!)
do you mean kotsay’s wpa is avg except at dh or its avg, just not for a dh? if the former, whats your take on why players will have better lines while in the field as opposed to just dh’ing?
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 5, 2010 7:07 PM CDT reply actions
cheat strict cheat not like bobby
LT like beer LT go drink beer now
sox win
Taking a walk in a donky park listening to the wind of change
This is by far the most post of the day.
by The Actual El Guapo on Aug 5, 2010 8:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yet several syllables away from a haiku
Theain is the guy I Just can’t stand! pierre is almost as bad,he dose get on base more. If Quntin gets any worse trade him. WE NEED HELP!
I like it the Greg Walker
For real. He got a ton of shit when the team wasn’t hitting…so it’s time to let the statisticals do the talking:
wOBA – Last 30 days – .358
4th best in baseball, and third best in the American League.
While we’re at it…lets look at the pitching numbers in the last 30 days…
Team ERA of 2.90. Best in baseball.
August 9th marks the two month anniversary of ’the turnaround"
To quote a well known broadcaster, “don’t stop now, boys!”
Theain is the guy I Just can’t stand! pierre is almost as bad,he dose get on base more. If Quntin gets any worse trade him. WE NEED HELP!
I need a lot more than one month of wOBA
To reverse my feelings on Greg Walker…
It's called Sex Panther by Odeon. It's illegal in nine countries... Yep, it's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
They've done studies, you know. 60% of the time it works, every time.
August 9th marks the two month anniversary of..............................
THE FUCKING STANLEY CUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap.
"....we have to find a way to win. And good teams do that."
Tomas Kopecky May 29, 2010
by ballyb on Aug 5, 2010 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fuck. Yeah.
rec’d
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
The turnaround, she began on 5/21.
Facts be damned.
by The Actual El Guapo on Aug 5, 2010 8:39 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
He needs to fix Rios one more time.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Good lord... 99 percent of you would have me thinking we were the tigers.
who were in first place the day before the all star break and are now 9 out. Go put on some big boy pants and realize that we are in first place.
By the way- bobby is costing freddy his cy young season. cocksucker.
Kenwo4life=ratings
By the way- bobby is costing freddy his cy young season. cocksucker.
Best line ever.
"....we have to find a way to win. And good teams do that."
Tomas Kopecky May 29, 2010
Oooops.
Best line laugh ever.
"....we have to find a way to win. And good teams do that."
Tomas Kopecky May 29, 2010
you did that on purpose
nice job
"The trouble with baseball is that the player who knows how to bat and field the best is sitting in the bleachers" or on sss!?!
by Grinder Rule #42 on Aug 6, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
So "wins" is now an important stat? You have learned nothing from SSS.
Who is the Cocksucker now, eh?
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
bobby jenks, duh
get with it ya opos
-Jeeves Life in the Cell
I'm sure as hell glad you guys are hanging out here tonight,
the only working TV in the house is tuned to that “Real Housewives” crap.
note to self: gotta hit Best Buy tomorrow.
"Having resumed drinking alcohol, I cannot for the life of me understand how I ever could've given it up." - Merrick
Man up.
Who’s the Boss? Watch it. Learn it. Live it.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
On the up side - Catching up with 1500 posts today
So I got that goin’ for me, which is nice.
"Having resumed drinking alcohol, I cannot for the life of me understand how I ever could've given it up." - Merrick
by gar ridge pride on Aug 5, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Bobby throws one pitch nowadays
And he’s not good enough (see Rivera, Mariano) to get away with having that limited a repetoire.
Lance Berkman 2-15 since joining the Yankees.
FLB. Enjoy the New York fans, Lance, you POS. Mark effing Kotsay is kicking your ass.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
enjoying that RING sucker!?!?!?!??!?!111?
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
stack em up:
So surprising Bristol would be meh
Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game of 2008.
by NorthSidePaulie on Aug 6, 2010 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions
I'll have to have a talk with that powerrank guy
what a bastard.
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
On a related note, his work on the World Cup makes me less concerned about the numbers
It’s not like I don’t know that the Twinkies have a better team, it’s just that I don’t give a shit. When the White Sox win the division, I’m going to take a dump on that state.
It’s taken years of practice to be such an asshole.
by Chiburb on Jun 1, 2010 10:35 AM PDT
So every word posted is bolded?
Excellent.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
don't blow your load there kenwo
This is like having Marshall Faulk on your fantasy football team in 2000 and screwing up the rest of your draft to finish 7th.
by onlysoxfaninbasel on Aug 6, 2010 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions
uh oh. showalter working his magic. o's just swept the angels.
they are literally on fire.
hey swisher...........you know.
buck doesn't know how to lose.
this saddens me. tricking yourself into thinking you don’t suck can last more than a week. why did it have to start 3 days before we get there?
but the angels are on ice
so it’s a wash
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Buck or not... the orioles always have our number.
at least they have Bobbys number. hopefully he hides for 4 days.
Kenwo4life=ratings
WS 45-32 against the O's since 2000. 23-18 since 2005. 9-9 since 2008.
“Always have our number.” Not exactly.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
SSS.
TWT’sWS.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
Here:
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
I see you captured your business partner's response to being asked to attend next years meet-up.
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Specious argument.
We’re not comparing it against the league.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
You are changing the argument.
I am not happy we didn’t sweep the Tigers because they are playing awfully. The O’s are playing well and with some renewed hope. 4-3 would not be bad. But it wouldn’t mean they “have our number”.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
except you don't go 4-3 against everyone.
so you gotta make it up against the monumentally bad teams.
You don't get it, Roy.
They already have.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
Regardless of whether
we go .333 or .666 against the O’s, I think we win the division if we win more games than lose against Minnesota.
Best game I ever attended was the 163rd game of 2008.
by NorthSidePaulie on Aug 6, 2010 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions
.561 winning percentage. seems fine to me. it's baseball.
it is what it is.
hey swisher...........you know.
i have leftover cucumber salad from a thai place.
you know, with the vinegar and the sugar and whatever. ate all the cucumbers.
I have garlic bread from italian place.
is it wrong that i’m soaking the bread in the sweet vinegar and loving the shit out of it?
I'd dig it.
"We can't do it easy. But we may as well do it high." -The Cheat
by South Side Expat on Aug 5, 2010 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions
ozzie on facebook.
Ozzie Guillen – Freddy is a bad dude, in Baltimore ready for a long series
I finally agree with him
Kenwo4life=ratings
and yes i am friends with him on facebook....
keep your friends close and your enemies closer.
Kenwo4life=ratings
I am too!
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
That is where sabermetrics come short.
They do help win ball games over the course of the season(Bill Beane), but when a player might knock in 5 runs in one game and those are all 5 runs scored all game. That is 1 win or if someone hits a homerun one game and it turns out 1-0. They have to factor that into sabermetrics somehow.
way to
take my picture and post it again. Original content bro.
by BaseballRainMan on Aug 5, 2010 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Rock ass.
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Whosh.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
whosh back at ya
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
Mercy.
And yet there was Kotsay almost singlehandedly powering the Sox to victory. It’s games like this that cause a rift between the common fan an sabermetrics.
What do you mean Kotsay is worth negative wins? Remember that game in Detroit that he won almost all by himself?
Thankfully, Win Probability Added (WPA) picks up those wild swings that other metrics might classify as noise. So while Kotsay is listed as a full win below replacement, his WPA total clocks in at a more average but still useless from the DH spot -.08 (not quite sure if that includes today’s game)
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Youdaman.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
I've been here for 5 minutes and you all are going at me.
I’m back where I used to be.
by BaseballRainMan on Aug 5, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Be Chicago Tough.
Fer Chrissakes.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
LOL.
He’s at least 14 now. His balls have dropped.
Its sort of a chess match right now but some upgrades are still possible with very little cost except money.
by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 10:13 AM EDT
I'm 17 now.
And yes, to answer yoru question.
by BaseballRainMan on Aug 6, 2010 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
That is my name.
Need any more explanation?
by BaseballRainMan on Aug 6, 2010 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Definitely.
"We can't do it easy. But we may as well do it high." -The Cheat
by South Side Expat on Aug 6, 2010 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions
If only there were a way to add that probability of winning into some kind of total score.
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
FUCK YES
TRUCK TURNER IS ON!
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
WHAT CHANNEL?
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions
REELZ
507 on comcast in plainfield
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
Sheeeit.
Netflix it is.
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
it is pretty fantastic
When I was a kid, I didn't want to be a doctor or a fireman. I wanted to be Super Mario. It's the most literal pipe dream I've ever had.
bobby jenks: jar jar binks...coincidence, i think not
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
by oneloyaldawg on Aug 5, 2010 10:04 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Bar Bar Jenks!
"Fuck fangraphs and your fancy designer stats can go pound some hard sand"- Billyok
by DrEmilioLizardo on Aug 5, 2010 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Mesah throw like Graham Norton!
"Fuck fangraphs and your fancy designer stats can go pound some hard sand"- Billyok
by DrEmilioLizardo on Aug 5, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
lol what?
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
you know the white sox did things before gordon beckham was here.
its time for the come to Jesus moment and admit Kotsay's time has long passed. -tdogg
what is that supposed to mean?
"Sure I steal bases. I just like to do it 4 at a time." -Konerko-
by oneloyaldawg on Aug 6, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Booo. What I've been meaning to say is:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
"Before you can say 'sounds of the game,' Mark Kotsay is out." -Chris Rose
by Teahenny Penny on Aug 5, 2010 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Jenks pitching in his previous life must have been like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GOtAQ__wks&feature=related
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Just looked up Kotsay's BABIP
is .217… wouldn’t we expect his avg. and WAR to go up towards the end of the season? No one can be that unlucky over the whole season. Not that I’m a fan. At all.
"Why Dye no have a job?"
sure. he isn't quite as shitty as some of the numbers suggest.
of course, even if he was getting average luck, he’d still be below replacement.
and carlos babip is below 200
something tells me even the mafia wouldn't call on greg walker if a hit was needed.
-MarketMaker
yes, we can expect his babip to be that low
if he is consistently hitting infield flys, weak grounders and other easily fielded batted ball types.
check his GB/FB splits. if he’s putting the ball in the air with a low iso his babip is gonna be ass. see: Q! or any other power hitter, really. I bet kingman had a babip of like .004 or something.
Kotsay and Jenks
While I am grateful for Mark Kotsay’s performance yesterday, the bottom line is his average is still only .223. Whether this is a start of an upswing for him, time will tell.
But his overall performance stinks.
As for Jenks, I am worried that he said he was upset over the 1-2 pitch he threw that hit the batter. I wonder if he let himself get upset by that so he lost his concentration to the batter who hit the home run?
It still would have been an unsuccesful appearance if he did not hit the batter and still gave up the home run. His era is 5.13, and that is not acceptable for a closer.
There were many more times that he has given up runs and still gotten the save.
He has not been what we expect of a closer.
great job of using batting average to determine how poorly kotsay is doing
"We saw death and I don't think we fear it anymore. Not unlike 2005, when we finally clinched and then we took off in the playoffs." Coop 7/29/10
Haha, Kotsay. From ESPN White Sox Blog:
Kotsay has heard much of the bashing on radio and the internet, and seemed to be aware of the Delgado rumor.
He reads SSS!
Time to call in the Q!avalry.
by ScottyPods Ver2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 1:24 PM CDT reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Five tips for Showtime’s second season of ‘The Franchise,’ featuring the Miami Marlins
- The 10 best things about being a Detroit Tigers fan
- Surprise! A’s finally end the Yoenis Cespedes derby with $36 million deal for Cuban star
- The time Whitney Houston sang to Jim Bowden
- Pitchers and catchers! Mariners get early start in Arizona
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
